Post subject: The future of Thelema Posted: Aug 03, 2009 - 02:03 AM
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Thelema has its roots in older traditions and is a hybrid of many teaching/philosophies yet is itself a unique product.
Its growth since its inception (or re-invention after Rabelis) around the turn of the 20 century to the books and writings (in print and PDF etc) now widely available, podcasts and rock albums, the various Thelemic Orders and groups. Thelema and Thelemic thought has multiplied itself exponentially and continues to expand and stay relevant.
What do you see as the future of Thelema in the 21st Century and beyond?
Noctifer
Post subject:Posted: Aug 03, 2009 - 09:00 AM
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I see it continuing to be a catalyst for (or rather, expression of) radical mutation in the human life-wave, pretty much by definition.
It can't not be and remain "Thelema".
Whoever has Crowley copyrights doesn't matter at all except in terms of how they're edited and who gets the money. Thelema was never, as you say, just about Crowley. If it was, I would never have got into it, and neither would have many of those who see a very deep, valid and trans-personal spirituality in it. I mean, I dig Crowley, but I wouldn't call myself a "Thelemite" if that meant just liking Crowley as a genius/character/philosopher/magus. I admire and like him, but I quite often hate him too. But that's healthy. I actually like the bits that I hate too, and I'm okay with it.
If it was just about him, Thelema would have been just another pathetic personality cult led by a deluded messianic hippy with dictatorial fantasies, created for "followers" to follow, to give them an excuse to not think for themselves. As he said himself - "no follower is worth having". He hated the idea of "followers" passionately and wanted desperately to restore dignity, grace, and true godliness to the spiritual life of humanity by encouraging it to flower in its own way as a perfect expression of immanent reality, and that means it cannot be exclusively the domain of one mortal ego, especially a dead one.
Thelema absolutely requires permanent revelation and expression - the more indirectly (few and secret), the more truly effective in the long term goals, I think.
That way it'll always be Nu!
_________________ 'The trouble (I think) has always been that nobody ever looked at things from Outside; they were always at one end or the other.' - A.C.
Noctifer
Post subject:Posted: Aug 03, 2009 - 09:34 AM
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The "Future" is something that has increasingly interested me in recent years. It is a fascinating and inherently Thelemic preoccupation I think.
Two things here -
1. Maat Magick as presented by Nema is a natural harmonic of Thelema and is explicitly future-derived mythopaea, you can find out more on this in Mr. Grant's books too, but it seems to be one example of growth in the required direction;
2. "The Crowned and Conquering Child" is the symbol and supreme identity of Thelema. Child = future product of love. Nema alone (to my knowledge) has recognised this in a literal sense and provided acknowledgements of the fact in her rituals. Crowley proved incapable of doing so, except to glorify his own identity as a big kid (which is fine, but a bit short-sighted, perhaps he wasn't the family man he may have wanted to be).
I do think that to become more influential (not that it necessarily should, maybe it doesn't), Thelema needs to really embrace this and deify SUCCEEDING generations, rather than only former ones. Ancestor worship is great but it's only half the story.
Without sinking into idiotic Messianism of any kind at all, a definite focus on generations beyond our own as the target points of our Acts today is required. The family unit, (whatever it is!) or perhaps constellation, doesn't tend to appear much in Thelemic discourse but it absolutely has to, now, that is the basic unit of society, out of which come individuals.
One strong reason why Nema has gone there alone is perhaps because she's a woman when so many Thelemite writers are men. Women tend to think about children more, whether they have them or not.
Truly mature Thelema in the future requires a trans-Crowleyan approach which includes but is not limited to his works, is ever-growing with the generations which define it through their own terms, and includes quite definitely a look to the future as its source.
"There is success(ion)."
_________________ 'The trouble (I think) has always been that nobody ever looked at things from Outside; they were always at one end or the other.' - A.C.
gurugeorge
Post subject: Re: The future of Thelema Posted: Aug 03, 2009 - 05:41 PM
newneubergOuch wrote: › Thelema has its roots in older traditions and is a hybrid of many teaching/philosophies yet is itself a unique product.
Its growth since its inception (or re-invention after Rabelis) around the turn of the 20 century to the books and writings (in print and PDF etc) now widely available, podcasts and rock albums, the various Thelemic Orders and groups. Thelema and Thelemic thought has multiplied itself exponentially and continues to expand and stay relevant.
What do you see as the future of Thelema in the 21st Century and beyond?
Sociologically, I reckon it will always be "small beer", and I think AC intended that deliberately; but I think the "spirit of the times" is Thelemic, alive and well, and will continue to grow, catalyzed by people who are overtly Thelemic, by people who are covertly Thelemic, and by people who are born Thelemic (but perhaps have no necessary connection to any Thelemic movement, nor profess any Thelemic ideology).
I think s-f is the "underground" Thelemic prophetic literature: all things being equal, we're in for a hell of a ride.
_________________ "To wake up is to wake the world up" - D.E. Harding
Iskandar
Post subject: Re: The future of Thelema Posted: Aug 03, 2009 - 06:12 PM
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gurugeorge wrote: ›
I think s-f is the "underground" Thelemic prophetic literature: all things being equal, we're in for a hell of a ride.
Care to suggest some authors you consider relevant in this respect, gurugeorge?
mika
Post subject:Posted: Aug 03, 2009 - 09:08 PM
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The "Crowned and Conquering Child" is created and born internally. It refers to a stage in one's magical path, a point in the internal alchemical process, an aspect of the tranformational journey of the self. As far as I'm concerned, a literal interpretation is a fallacy. If you disagree, if you think the "Crowned and Conquering Child" is at all meaningful in a literal sense, then explain this: how can you reconcile your desire to create a child that has a specific, pre-determined future path with the Thelemic philosophy that every individual 'star' follows its own orbit? What the literal interpretation is saying is that you are going to create a child who will exist and behave according to some pre-established expectations, which is patently non-Thelemic.
Why would you think Crowley wanted to be a family man? Is that belief simply fallout from assuming a literal interpretation of "Crowned and Conquering Child"? Or did he actually express such desires in his writing? (If so, please provide a reference so I can check it out for myself).
Do you have actual evidence for this claim? It sounds to me like an assumption based on sexist stereotyping.
That sounds good, but only if it is that future person's will to take such an approach. Really, all Thelema requires, by anyone, ever, is to discover and follow one's will, however that may manifest, whether using Crowley's work or not.
"Do what thou wilt--then do nothing else. Let nothing deflect thee from that austere and holy task. Liberty is absolute to do thy will; but seek to do any other thing whatever, and instantly obstacles must arise. Every act that is not in definite course of that one orbit is erratic, an hindrance. Will must not be two, but one."
Camlion
Post subject:Posted: Aug 03, 2009 - 10:29 PM
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mika wrote: › Really, all Thelema requires, by anyone, ever, is to discover and follow one's will, however that may manifest, whether using Crowley's work or not.
"Do what thou wilt--then do nothing else. Let nothing deflect thee from that austere and holy task. Liberty is absolute to do thy will; but seek to do any other thing whatever, and instantly obstacles must arise. Every act that is not in definite course of that one orbit is erratic, an hindrance. Will must not be two, but one."
This is certainly true, Mika, but what do you think will make it so in the world, or will it be?. Will it be overt promulgation? Covert? Natural evolution? A combination thereof? What, in your opinion?
mika
Post subject:Posted: Aug 03, 2009 - 10:56 PM
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[quote="Camlion"]
I don't concern myself with whether or not, or how, Thelema will be spread throught the world for ever and ever amen. It's not a religion for me, it's a personal philosophy. A philosophy that in practice overlaps with many others, so "Thelema" itself is not as important to me as the personal process involved in its practice. For example, I rarely discuss Crowley's work with people, but I often discuss the perspectives that I've learned through his work, in ways that make the ideas accessible to people who otherwise wouldn't be interested in this level of self-discovery and evolution.
In my opinion, if I were to project my perception of reality on to the world as if it were true, I'd say that Thelema will always be occult. As in hidden. That is, it will always appeal to very few and even fewer will actually 'get it' in theory and practice. Such is the fate of anything that challenges people to become more than simply domesticated primates. It is far easier, safer and more comfortable to live life as a near-unconscious robot than to become "more than human". If the walking dead were willing and able to evolve, we'd all be Taoists by now.
On the other hand, if what the kabbalists believe is actually true, then at some point enough individual sparks will have been raised that the entire world will experience some level of enlightenment. But again, this has little to do with the promulgation of a particular dogma, and everything to do with actual practice (Tikkun, the Great Work, Thelema, whatever you want to label it), so whether or not Thelema or any other particular philosophy persists throughout time and space is irrelevant. The ideas will persist in some form or another, as they always have - so what difference does it make how they are presented?
Camlion
Post subject:Posted: Aug 03, 2009 - 11:04 PM
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My, my... I notice that you spend a certain amount of your own time and energy discussing Thelema in these forums, and I assume that it is your Will to do so?
mika
Post subject:Posted: Aug 03, 2009 - 11:13 PM
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Naturally.
When I said I rarely discuss Thelema with people, I meant when not participating on a Thelema-based forum. A blatantly obvious clarification.
Noctifer
Post subject:Posted: Aug 04, 2009 - 12:20 AM
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Mika,
mika wrote: ›
Noctifer wrote: › "The Crowned and Conquering Child" is the symbol and supreme identity of Thelema. Child = future product of love. Nema alone (to my knowledge) has recognised this in a literal sense and provided acknowledgements of the fact in her rituals.
The "Crowned and Conquering Child" is created and born internally. It refers to a stage in one's magical path, a point in the internal alchemical process, an aspect of the tranformational journey of the self.
Mika, you can interpret it however you like. I'm not going to bite into your argument. I've put forward some of my ideas as this thread was made to allow, and I'll leave the air free for others to put forward theirs. I don't have time or desire to "argue" here, beyond this one post. What the Child "is" or "is not" is not for you or any one person to say. We all have our views, and they are not mutually exclusive.
Feel free to post a view which is independant of anything I've said and is not inspired by an obsession with criticism. Or we'll be here all day and frankly life is a bit short.
Quote: › As far as I'm concerned, a literal interpretation is a fallacy. If you disagree, if you think the "Crowned and Conquering Child" is at all meaningful in a literal sense, then explain this: how can you reconcile your desire to create a child that has a specific, pre-determined future path with the Thelemic philosophy that every individual 'star' follows its own orbit?
I don't know why you think I have a "desire to create a child that has a specific, pre-determined future path"??? I have not said anything even remotely resembling this!!!
I don't!!!
Quote: › What the literal interpretation is saying is that you are going to create a child who will exist and behave according to some pre-established expectations, which is patently non-Thelemic.
No, I haven't said anything of the sort. Please re-read my post without projecting your desired opposition onto it. I'm not going to bite.
Quote: › Why would you think Crowley wanted to be a family man? Is that belief simply fallout from assuming a literal interpretation of "Crowned and Conquering Child"? Or did he actually express such desires in his writing? (If so, please provide a reference so I can check it out for myself).
This is not an argument, Mika, it's an observation. If you don't share it, just move on and post your own views to the opening question in the thread. I don't care if you agree or not. I really don't. I have read pretty much everything where AC's concerned and can't be bothered looking up every single reference for your gratification. Sorry. I've got my picture, you've got yours.
Noctifer wrote: › Women tend to think about children more, whether they have them or not.
Quote: › Do you have actual evidence for this claim? It sounds to me like an assumption based on sexist stereotyping.
Oh for $&@! sake, Mika, yes I do have "experience of this claim" ! Jesus. What is this? I have experience of this claim from several Thelemic partners I have had, non-Thelemic partners I have had, occult & non-occult partners I have had, bisexual partners I have had, lesbian friends, both mothers and non-mothers, both feminists and people who really couldn't care less about tired political bandwagons written by stony-faced would-be academics, general observation of the world around me over 35 years, conversation with many friends and colleagues of both sexes from a WIDE variety of backgrounds, my own family, and a few in between. Yes, it is a sexist stereotype/ generalisation, and it is also true, generally speaking. If you're an exception (or have read books which tell you to be one) than that is fine but it does, in fact, hold as a general observation. Women and girls think about babies more. In general. I'm not exactly going out on a limb here. There isn't anything wrong with it, I'm not fighting what I see, I'm just saying, this is the case (in my experience), and it should be taken into account if Thelema is to lose the macho-man bullshit which turns so many away, and grow up a bit.
Anyway, back to the wonderful theme of the opening post, and looking forward to others sharing their views positively (rather than just reacting critically to those that have been shared).
N.
_________________ 'The trouble (I think) has always been that nobody ever looked at things from Outside; they were always at one end or the other.' - A.C.
Noctifer
Post subject:Posted: Aug 04, 2009 - 01:00 AM
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mika wrote: › it will always appeal to very few and even fewer will actually 'get it' in theory and practice
"Blatantly obvious", wouldn't you say, Camlion?
_________________ 'The trouble (I think) has always been that nobody ever looked at things from Outside; they were always at one end or the other.' - A.C.
gurugeorge
Post subject: Re: The future of Thelema Posted: Aug 04, 2009 - 09:44 AM
I think s-f is the "underground" Thelemic prophetic literature: all things being equal, we're in for a hell of a ride.
Care to suggest some authors you consider relevant in this respect, gurugeorge?
It starts to appear in the 1930s, with the birth of pulp s-f (the "Gernsback Continuum"). Then you have the "classic" s-f authors (Heinlein, Asimov, etc), then you have the "new wave", rather more dystopian s-f of the Sixties and Seventies (Bradbury, some names I can't recall); then you have the "cyberpunk" wave of the 80s (Gibson etc.); and more recently, the whole thing has come to a certain maturity with authors like Vernor Vinge, John Varley, and the brilliant Scottish s-f authors of recent times (Stross, Banks, McLeod). A parallel development could be drawn with the development of the superhero mythos, starting with Simon & Shuster, leading up to Moore and Morrison.
The spirit of s-f (and its close cousin, the superhero idea) is heroic, a dream of power, and of the mastery of Nature, with a "sense of wonder" at the marvellous possibilities that are open to us; but with a strong humanist streak and a canny awareness of what could go wrong. (Leo/Aquarius?)
In a trope: superheros, fantasy heros and AIs are the "gods" of today, and scientists the "high priests". But instead of a vague dream of mastery, as in ancient times (when we desired that mastery, but were ignorant of how to attain it), it is a more concrete, detailed, and feasible vision.
Note, in particular, how the superhero mythos crosses the boundaries between science and magick. The deep prophecy is not just of our forthcoming scientific mastery of the material world, but of a forthcoming mastery of magick too! (There is more of a self-conscious split between s-f and fantasy, but they are both a strong elements in the dreams of our culture.)
_________________ "To wake up is to wake the world up" - D.E. Harding
Alex_Bennett
Post subject:Posted: Aug 04, 2009 - 02:24 PM
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
I think that the future of Thelema is quite obviously going in a certain direction. The trouble is what we do with it and how we come to terms with how it will inevitably evolve. Aleister Crowley was indeed a prophet of Thelema but I hope and doubt he will be its last. We have had the orthodoxy established with his writings and by doing so we have established the white school of magick’s stance in this Aeon through the Beast's work. At the moment however we are going through the black school of magick’s rebuilding for the new Aeon. This is natural and quite necessary. Christianity had a left hand path or black school in Alchemy (though it killed Cathars, Wiches and a whole host of other more interesting things, it did just about tolerate Alchemy), Hinduism had Tantra (though that too is not tolerated these days). The left hand path is often the most interesting part of a religion as it uses the magickal theory of a religious view without actually becoming religious. It is needed to increase the flexibility of a doctrine else religions tend to become too fixed and eventually shatter and dark ages ensue.
You can see the trend of left hand path being established clearly in Thelema at the moment as a whole, with many people choosing the less orthodox approach and being more inclined to adopt the path of the opposer. This should be done without throwing the baby out with the bath water though, so we keep to Thelema but explore how far we can get from the accepted teachings of Crowley's white brotherhood orthodoxy without ceasing to be Thelema, in the broad temple sense at least.
The future if we allow ourselves, will be an eventual union of these two extreemes brought about by the yellow or grey school of magick and this in history has always coincided with a golden age. The trouble is though, do we have the tolerance and enlightenment to allow this to come about? The alternative is of course a bigoted totalitarian orthodoxy that bases its religious ideas of ‘spirituality’ on murder and fear, in a state of permanent war with the opposing freedom fighters. I for one find all that very samey and have had enough of that sort of thing over the aeons but it’s not just down to me is it.
Love is the law, love under will.
Alex
Noctifer
Post subject:Posted: Aug 04, 2009 - 03:09 PM
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Alex,
What an incredibly interesting viewpoint.
I love what you say -
1. about the yellow, or, ahm, cough, "grey" school providing an ultimately successful compromise position between the two ultimately untenable extremes of absolute linearity, and absolute laterality, in Thelema;
2. also amazingly interesting is your analogy of the White/Black stages of Alchemy and the history of Thelema as it stands...wow! Yep, we're in the black one right now.
3. "Black" -of both types- certainly seems on the rise in Thelema these days (in both its welcome and unwelcome senses!!!) but it has in fact been there from the start, I think, it's simply growing up the way it was born to; perhaps a chymickall weddinge of both types of the Dark Side in Thelema (both magickal and mundane), will occur, transforming them both into a stronger living thing with its feet firmly planted in both the inner and "outer" (!) worlds.
Most insightful. Thank you!
N.
_________________ 'The trouble (I think) has always been that nobody ever looked at things from Outside; they were always at one end or the other.' - A.C.
Iskandar
Post subject: Re: The future of Thelema Posted: Aug 04, 2009 - 03:51 PM
Joined: Feb 14, 2005
Posts: 367
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gurugeorge wrote: ›
Iskandar wrote: ›
gurugeorge wrote: ›
I think s-f is the "underground" Thelemic prophetic literature: all things being equal, we're in for a hell of a ride.
Care to suggest some authors you consider relevant in this respect, gurugeorge?
It starts to appear in the 1930s, with the birth of pulp s-f (the "Gernsback Continuum"). Then you have the "classic" s-f authors (Heinlein, Asimov, etc), then you have the "new wave", rather more dystopian s-f of the Sixties and Seventies (Bradbury, some names I can't recall); then you have the "cyberpunk" wave of the 80s (Gibson etc.); and more recently, the whole thing has come to a certain maturity with authors like Vernor Vinge, John Varley, and the brilliant Scottish s-f authors of recent times (Stross, Banks, McLeod). A parallel development could be drawn with the development of the superhero mythos, starting with Simon & Shuster, leading up to Moore and Morrison.
The spirit of s-f (and its close cousin, the superhero idea) is heroic, a dream of power, and of the mastery of Nature, with a "sense of wonder" at the marvellous possibilities that are open to us; but with a strong humanist streak and a canny awareness of what could go wrong. (Leo/Aquarius?)
In a trope: superheros, fantasy heros and AIs are the "gods" of today, and scientists the "high priests". But instead of a vague dream of mastery, as in ancient times (when we desired that mastery, but were ignorant of how to attain it), it is a more concrete, detailed, and feasible vision.
Note, in particular, how the superhero mythos crosses the boundaries between science and magick. The deep prophecy is not just of our forthcoming scientific mastery of the material world, but of a forthcoming mastery of magick too! (There is more of a self-conscious split between s-f and fantasy, but they are both a strong elements in the dreams of our culture.)
Gurugeorge, thanks for the thoughts. Yes, indeed, we might say that magick is definitely 'in the air' in more ways than one. I would perhaps also add the contemporary pop / rock music as an expression of the 'aeon of the child,' with all its Dionysian energy (not as strong as it was in the sixties, but still there in many forms). Film also. Žižek, in his wonderful "Pervert's Guide to Cinema," insists that if we want to know something about reality, we have to pay attention to the fiction (suggesting also that what we habitually call 'reality' is in fact only a fiction - you can get a whole new insight into things once you turn them upside-down).
I think that one of the crucial intellectual events will be the discarding of the Cartesian paradigm, which splits the reality into subject and object, and the realization of the interpenetration between physical and mental (or between subject and object). In one of his axioms at the beginning of MTP Crowley argues that nature is a continuous phenomenon and to me this seems as a fundamental doctrine that justifies magick. Jung was also suggesting that there is ultimately no separation between the psyche and the matter. A good deal of Eastern teachings, which of course have a huge impact despite some misunderstandings, have a similar point. I hope that the combined force of these various movements and influences will reach a critical mass that will eventually tilt the scale towards something more interesting than is global capitalism and its specters. And I am willing to bet that if there is one element in the culture that is able to effect the change, it is magick. But it has to be both science and art: and that is a challenge.
Camlion
Post subject:Posted: Aug 04, 2009 - 04:32 PM
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Noctifer wrote: ›
mika wrote: › it will always appeal to very few and even fewer will actually 'get it' in theory and practice
"Blatantly obvious", wouldn't you say, Camlion?
I would say that 'getting It' is relative, but that the Law is for all.
mika
Post subject:Posted: Aug 04, 2009 - 06:10 PM
Joined: Jul 04, 2009
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You expressed appreciation for a literal interpretation of creating "The Crowned and Conquering Child". If, in your opinion, this does not mean creaing a child intended to have a specific, predetermined path, what exactly does it mean to you? What do you think "The Crowned and Conquering Child" is, and what does it mean to literally create one?
An observation of what? I'm simply asking you what led you to conclude that Crowley wanted to be a family man. Asking you to provide a reference is not the same as trying to create an argument. Maybe my view of Crowley as not giving a crap about being a family man is in error, if so I will correct it, but I won't change my opinion without supporting evidence.
Hilarious. You believe what you believe, that's that, once you decide what you know is true you can't be bothered to confirm whether or not it is accurate?
"I slept with Faith, and found a corpse in my arms on
awaking; I drank and danced all night with Doubt,
and found her a virgin in the morning."
Personally, my pictures are always open to revision based on the available evidence. If you aren't willing to provide any quotes or references, perhaps someone else will.
I didn't ask if you had experience, I asked if you had evidence.
You didn't say "this is the case, in my experience". You didn't say "generally speaking". You made a statement about women as if it were fact (and, made the associated implication about men as if it were fact). If you don't think confusing your perception of reality with actual reality leads to confusion, then I can see why you don't think there's anything wrong with assuming "general observations" are equivalent to statements of fact. This habit can hinder the practice of Thelema, so yes this is on-topic, since the future of Thelema depends on people being willing to examine their own assumptions about reality.
Perpetuating stereotypes about men and women is not the way to lose the macho-man bullshit, it adds to the macho-man bullshit. For example, with your above statements you are promoting the belief that men don't think about children as much as women. That's about as macho-stereotype as you can get.
Noctifer
Post subject:Posted: Aug 04, 2009 - 06:19 PM
Joined: Jul 17, 2009
Posts: 217
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(sigh).
_________________ 'The trouble (I think) has always been that nobody ever looked at things from Outside; they were always at one end or the other.' - A.C.
newneubergOuch
Post subject:Posted: Aug 05, 2009 - 01:33 AM
Joined: Jul 19, 2007
Posts: 107
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Anyway ...........back on topic, I think gurugeorge,alex bennett and iskander raise some great points, lets re-read their posts and keep on going.
Noctifer
Post subject:Posted: Aug 05, 2009 - 05:39 AM
Joined: Jul 17, 2009
Posts: 217
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...and ignore mine, you mean ? Subtle! Ouch! My first two posts are, actually, completely on topic and very cogent. If someone else wants to derail the thread don't blame me. It's an open public forum, not a clique club. Presumably.
_________________ 'The trouble (I think) has always been that nobody ever looked at things from Outside; they were always at one end or the other.' - A.C.
gurugeorge
Post subject: Re: The future of Thelema Posted: Aug 05, 2009 - 11:56 AM
I think s-f is the "underground" Thelemic prophetic literature: all things being equal, we're in for a hell of a ride.
Care to suggest some authors you consider relevant in this respect, gurugeorge?
It starts to appear in the 1930s, with the birth of pulp s-f (the "Gernsback Continuum"). Then you have the "classic" s-f authors (Heinlein, Asimov, etc), then you have the "new wave", rather more dystopian s-f of the Sixties and Seventies (Bradbury, some names I can't recall); then you have the "cyberpunk" wave of the 80s (Gibson etc.); and more recently, the whole thing has come to a certain maturity with authors like Vernor Vinge, John Varley, and the brilliant Scottish s-f authors of recent times (Stross, Banks, McLeod). A parallel development could be drawn with the development of the superhero mythos, starting with Simon & Shuster, leading up to Moore and Morrison.
The spirit of s-f (and its close cousin, the superhero idea) is heroic, a dream of power, and of the mastery of Nature, with a "sense of wonder" at the marvellous possibilities that are open to us; but with a strong humanist streak and a canny awareness of what could go wrong. (Leo/Aquarius?)
In a trope: superheros, fantasy heros and AIs are the "gods" of today, and scientists the "high priests". But instead of a vague dream of mastery, as in ancient times (when we desired that mastery, but were ignorant of how to attain it), it is a more concrete, detailed, and feasible vision.
Note, in particular, how the superhero mythos crosses the boundaries between science and magick. The deep prophecy is not just of our forthcoming scientific mastery of the material world, but of a forthcoming mastery of magick too! (There is more of a self-conscious split between s-f and fantasy, but they are both a strong elements in the dreams of our culture.)
Gurugeorge, thanks for the thoughts. Yes, indeed, we might say that magick is definitely 'in the air' in more ways than one. I would perhaps also add the contemporary pop / rock music as an expression of the 'aeon of the child,' with all its Dionysian energy (not as strong as it was in the sixties, but still there in many forms). Film also. Žižek, in his wonderful "Pervert's Guide to Cinema," insists that if we want to know something about reality, we have to pay attention to the fiction (suggesting also that what we habitually call 'reality' is in fact only a fiction - you can get a whole new insight into things once you turn them upside-down).
I think that one of the crucial intellectual events will be the discarding of the Cartesian paradigm, which splits the reality into subject and object, and the realization of the interpenetration between physical and mental (or between subject and object). In one of his axioms at the beginning of MTP Crowley argues that nature is a continuous phenomenon and to me this seems as a fundamental doctrine that justifies magick. Jung was also suggesting that there is ultimately no separation between the psyche and the matter. A good deal of Eastern teachings, which of course have a huge impact despite some misunderstandings, have a similar point. I hope that the combined force of these various movements and influences will reach a critical mass that will eventually tilt the scale towards something more interesting than is global capitalism and its specters. And I am willing to bet that if there is one element in the culture that is able to effect the change, it is magick. But it has to be both science and art: and that is a challenge.
Yes, agree with a lot of this (although I'm probably substantially more pro-capitalist than you ).
Particularly the anti-Cartesianism: the developments in cognitive science that are showing the sense of self to be a "user illusion" are quite exciting from my point of view, because it's showing a convergence between the findings of mysticism and science.
But mysticism is still a nose ahead of science here. Put it this way, if one says "user illusion", the question naturally arises "who is the 'user'"? In the scientific story, that has to drop out (i.e. one might say "oh the analogy doesn't stretch that far"). But from the mystical point of view, there clearly is a "user" - the Absolute!
(IOW, you could put it in Alan Wattsian terms - George is the Universe George-ing, Iskandar is the Universe Iskandar-ing.)
This is all going to become clearer to more people. An example of this is the "neo-Advaita" movement, and the popularity of other non-dual teachings such as Zen and Dzogchen.
It is this "democratization" of enlightenment that we have to look forward to, I think. It's that, in combination with our scientific mastery of the physical world, that's going to really boost us into the superheroic, science-fictionish world of the future. There will be great risks too, but we shall overcome, and we will eventually consciously become what we have always already been, but were asleep to - gods(God) walking the(our) earth.
_________________ "To wake up is to wake the world up" - D.E. Harding
kidneyhawk
Post subject: RE: Re: The future of Thelema Posted: Aug 05, 2009 - 01:49 PM
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Gurugeorge,
THAT was a truly great post.
Quote: ›
George is the Universe George-ing, Iskandar is the Universe Iskandar-ing
Did Watts invent that phraseology? It's perfect. And quite Zen!
Quote: ›
An example of this is the "neo-Advaita" movement,
An interestingly, this is a MAJOR underpinning of Typhonian Thelema. A lot of people have chosen to view Kenneth Grant as someone who turned Thelema into Sci-Fi when he developed his work with and study of Crowley into something that could very well be described as
Quote: ›
"neo-Advaita"
As for
Quote: ›
this "democratization" of enlightenment
I think this vision has been held by many people through time, and not as a mere pipe-dream of utopia, but an anticipation of evolutionary possibility (and even tendency). The cool thing is that Enlightenment opens to an awareness that
Quote: ›
George is the Universe George-ing
for BOTH of us. This understanding destroys so much of what gets in the way of both "Doing Our Will" and genuinely appreciating the same thing in our environment, which includes other people. Our communications, our ways of relating to each other and the "culture" or climate in which this happens will morph to accomodate a better and more liberated state of Being.
I do think there's a "long way to go" but at the same time, it also is happening right now.
It happened when you wrote the above words.
93,
Kyle
Camlion
Post subject: RE: Re: The future of Thelema Posted: Aug 05, 2009 - 04:59 PM
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Nice post, George, in rebuttal to 'garden variety solipsism.' In my own little circle, we call it "Enlightened Solipsism," rather than "neo-Advaita," but it is right on by definition, and in perfect keeping, ultimately, with the "every man and every woman is a star" of Thelema, as I see it.
gurugeorge
Post subject: Re: RE: Re: The future of Thelema Posted: Aug 06, 2009 - 12:38 AM
kidneyhawk wrote: ›
Did Watts invent that phraseology? It's perfect. And quite Zen!
Actually, come to think of it, that precise kind of phrasing might have been John Wren-Lewis'. But I recently read something of Watts that said something very similar, so Watts was on my mind.
Quote: › I think this vision has been held by many people through time,
Yes - and if AC is right, Christianity was itself an experiment of this kind that went a bit wrong. (A "democratization of the Mysteries".) If that's the case, then what AC did is highlighted by contrast - number one, avoid dogmatism. Even if it's a convenient way of shepherding the little ones (so to speak).
Thanks for your kind words!
_________________ "To wake up is to wake the world up" - D.E. Harding
gurugeorge
Post subject: Re: RE: Re: The future of Thelema Posted: Aug 06, 2009 - 12:57 AM
Camlion wrote: › Nice post, George, in rebuttal to 'garden variety solipsism.' In my own little circle, we call it "Enlightened Solipsism," rather than "neo-Advaita," but it is right on by definition, and in perfect keeping, ultimately, with the "every man and every woman is a star" of Thelema, as I see it.
Absolutely - "let all be worshipped, for they shall cluster to exalt me". All that wing-flapping and eye-pecking is meant for reform; fundamentally, "All words are sacred and all prophets true".
When I've got my "I believe in Magick" hat on, I sometimes toy with the idea that what AC did was set up a sort of "blind", so that the ire of the Old Guard would be drawn to him, and burn itself out, so that the "Wisdom of the East" could come through fully to infuse the West by the back door. IOW, the whole purpose of it all (all of "occultism" from the late 19th century on), was to get the non-dual teachings (hitherto reserved for the elite of their respective cultures) out and public. The world is ready for it.
In this connection, I recall Choegyal Namkhai Norbu talking about some crazy old master in the mountains that he and his teacher went to see when he was young. The old guy was in a mumbling trance state, and Namkhai Norbu's teacher suggested that he was probably giving out teachings (as we might say "on the astral"). Again, when I've got my "I believe in Magick" hat on, I am fond of the idea that some of those sorts of people were the real "Secret Chiefs" (or their earthly vessels), and that that sort of thing has been going on all the time, and that a whole load of intensive work was done by the Yellow School to aid Us.
Whatever the case, the simple fact is that almost all the highest written teachings of the ancient, relatively continuous Eastern traditions are now readily available to anyone for the price of a day's work. That's a HUGE thing.
_________________ "To wake up is to wake the world up" - D.E. Harding
steve_wilson
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: The future of Thelema Posted: Aug 06, 2009 - 06:56 AM
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93
Well, I for one am working on a new vision of Thelema which will annoy a lot of people. It's a series of essays entitled: "Liber Das Kapital Vel Legis" and attempts to show that Marx and Crowley were both working in the Rosicrucian tradition and have predicted an age of total freedom for the individual, albeit after a period of struggle with the forces of reaction. This is Marxism as you may never have known it, though!
93 93/93
Steve
Alex_Bennett
Post subject:Posted: Aug 06, 2009 - 10:56 AM
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Do what thou will shall be the whole of the Law.
Steve
Brilliant, I can't wait! Even though it does sound a bit like a repeat of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact of 1939. We do have the problem of J F C Fuller becoming an honorary Nazi to contend with after all. Perhaps revelations that Marx was sneaking off to hang around with Old George Pickingill is just what this movement needs right now .
On a serious note I for one tend to favour a more left wing interpretation of Liber AL with all the condemnation of other religions being down to their lack of tolerance. I see it more as a warning against Thelema becoming strictly orthodox and intolerant of varying beliefs. Of course as interpretation is up to the individual I don’t see that mine applies to all though. The Book Of The Law mentions many gods, even though some narrow minded people insist that Thelema only has three, I think it’s future will have many varied gods and many cult centres servicing these deities. Of course Nuith-Hadith will be above all of them and Ra Hoor Khuith the chief of all the lesser gods but that doesn’t mean we won’t have hundreds of gods if we want. This leaves the future wide open so that all aspects of reality can be deified.
Love is the law, love under will.
Alex
Tiger
Post subject:Posted: Aug 06, 2009 - 03:22 PM
Joined: Apr 21, 2007
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Quote: › ....giving out teachings (as we might say "on the astral"). Again, when I've got my "I believe in Magick" hat on, I am fond of the idea that some of those sorts of people were the real "Secret Chiefs" (or their earthly vessels), and that that sort of thing has been going on all the time, and that a whole load of intensive work was done by the Yellow School to aid Us.
Yes a beautiful tradition. Carried on by many such as Saint-Yves d'Alveydre, Martinez de Pasqually, Martinists, Blavatsky, Crowley, Grant, even Gurjieff the list goes on. Such Magic! when the hat reveals the "Terma".
Julianus
Post subject: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: The future of Thelema Posted: Aug 06, 2009 - 03:50 PM
Joined: Jun 18, 2008
Posts: 17
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steve_wilson wrote: ›
Well, I for one am working on a new vision of Thelema which will annoy a lot of people. It's a series of essays entitled: "Liber Das Kapital Vel Legis" and attempts to show that Marx and Crowley were both working in the Rosicrucian tradition and have predicted an age of total freedom for the individual, albeit after a period of struggle with the forces of reaction. This is Marxism as you may never have known it, though!
I classify Marxism as a form of Christian Millennialism translated to the secular plane, so I have serious doubts that you could make it Thelemic unless you changed it beyond recognition—but perhaps that is what you mean!
Personally, I regard Thelema as a restoration of a primordial state rather than a 'revolution' as commonly understood. It is a return to the Traditions that were suspended by the advent of Christianity, Islam, Scientism, Modernism, Democracy, etc.
in 28° 
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in 6° 
: Anno IVxvii 
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...........back on topic, I think gurugeorge,alex bennett and iskander raise some great points, lets re-read their posts and keep on going. 
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