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VictimofChanges |
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Post subject: Is Thelema not so different?
 Posted: May 30, 2009 - 08:47 AM
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Joined: Oct 25, 2005
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After reading this thread,(http://www.lashtal.com/nuke/PNphpBB2-viewtopic-t-3390.phtml) I was surprised how Thelema is like all the other religions around.
If you say something that exists can't be studied or proven-then how do you know it exists? Maybe you're crazy, maybe I'm crazy, so how do we know we aren't? A crazy person just can't conclude they aren't crazy, we use evidence demonstrate it.
A subjective experience is a dime a dozen and proves nothing. Maybe I have a subjective experience that I can fly. So what? It proves nothing, it's just a hallucination.
Reading these posts gives me the impression that Thelema is like thousands of other religions; belief is based on nothing more than subjective experiences, or the belief in another person's experiences and the belief that you will soon have your own. When asked to prove these beliefs objectively, there are all sorts of reasons why it can't be. Every religion wants their belief to somehow be beyond study and evidence because it lets them justify their lack of it.
If Thelema uses the same system to justify its beliefs as any other religion, then how is it anything different? If we put the actual beliefs of Thelema aside, how is it not exactly the same as (insert any religion here)? |
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michaelclarke18 |
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Post subject: RE: Is Thelema not so different?
Posted: May 30, 2009 - 09:37 AM
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I don't think that members of any conventional religion are actively encouraged to develop their own link with 'the gods'...if anything, they are actively discouraged. In conventional religion, one merely abides by the word of the prophet...nothing is questioned and ones own behaviour is actively policed. That is part of my understanding of Thelema.
Of course, I do not feel that this applies to the Caphilate OTO; as this organisation - sadly - seems to have greater similarities with the usual power structures and hierarchies of the mainstream church. |
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JackScratch |
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Post subject: Re: RE: Is Thelema not so different?
Posted: May 30, 2009 - 10:44 AM
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Joined: Jun 24, 2008
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michaelclarke18 wrote: ›
Of course, I do not feel that this applies to the Caphilate OTO; as this organisation - sadly - seems to have greater similarities with the usual power structures and hierarchies of the mainstream church.
oh really? you know what?
I had my reservations about joining the OTO for years, mainly because of blindly following things i read by people like you who have no idea of what the OTO is actually like....well, instead of blindly bashing the OTO i decided to see for myself...at least then if all i had been led to believe by alll the naysayers was true I could speak from experience.....guess what? people dont know what they are talking about...no suprise there eh?
joining the OTO UK Grand Lodge was one of the best things ive ever done. I dont see any proof that the OTO UKGL is like a mainstream church. The EGC does provide a religous arm of the OTO, but even that form of ecclesiatic training can hardly be considered mainstream!
Its frustrating that so many people just regurgitate the same old crap, without once having the balls to experience the OTO for themselves.
Of course the OTO is not for everyone. The hierarchy of OTO has similarities to freemasonry, (which is IMO not religous) but shares little the "mainsteam church" as you put it.
The OTO first and foremost provides a very real oppurtunity for Thelemtes to engage in a fraternal environment, that encourages a true sense of community, chivalry and growth. |
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nosfastus |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 30, 2009 - 11:41 AM
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Interesting question. I would say most religions encourage obeidience to a dogma. But then most religions are in fact the misunderstanding and so the misapplication of mystical* observances of consciousness. *(that which is not translatable to the mundane intellect which is itself is only a partial awareness, just as a frog might think it is all there is, so the intellect is a fairly restricted creature which continually insists it is the King and there is no other). Thelema and occult practices in general on the other hand, encourage the individual to experiment with their 'mysterious' being with methods such as meditation, sexual alchemy, Qabalah, dream control etc. The dogmatic religions reinforce the individuals ego identity but in the negative, i.e as a restricted cell in a much larger body of beliefs that only serve to limit possible experience.
It would be fair to say that most religions don't encourage experimentation in the greatest laboratory of all...the human body/mind complex. If the followers of Islam and Christianity for example actually did what their prophets espoused and actually went into the desert and learnt to still their chattering minds they would if their wills were one pointed learn to see the light in all beings (even if it is buried beneath) rather than continually separating and condeming those who don't fit into their narrow ways of thinking.
I was going to say...'unfortunately Thelema is subject to being dogmatised'...but ultimately it is neither fortunate or unfortunate. It is the nature of dual consciousness. That which is essentially a principle of mental and spiritual freedom must be subject to degeneration into a system of control. It is down to the individuals will. If he or she attempts to transcend the dual nature of consciousness then so be it. The proof is in the pudding. The key to getting beyond the notion of 'religion' is to 'be smart.'..read the works and Do the work. It will be a religion if you let it. It will be liberation if you let it.
The word Thelema has become an entity unrelated to its meaning. Let us not forget that Thelema simply means Will. It would be interesting to see how Thelema has encoraged its practitioners to discover their true wills..Perhaps another thread. A few posts on how an individual has found their wills fulfilled in cooking for example...perhaps some good recipes? 'Thelema' as Crowley continually points out, is a call for the individual to Do what Thou Wilt...and if all really did what it was theirs hearts desired even on the mundane level then their would be harmony rather than manipulation. Better to fail at something you enjoy doing than to succed in something you hate.
What is the great awakening that Thelema promises as do other true systems?...it is to be awake..to recognise self, to recognise that that which appears without, i.e the phenomenal universe, is in fact within and yes, the recognition that 'All' IS a 'subjective' experience. To say something is unprovable, not logical, posits the question, 'has the individual stoppped enquiring? Are the tools of observation lacking? Is the scientist lazy? Easier to agree with current thinking than to test for oneself?' Quantum Physics recognises the absolute necessity/immanence of the observer in observation. To say because you haven't experienced something and therefore anyone who does says they have is wrong, is limiting the principles of chaos and possibility. It is a narrow perspective based on lack of experience. Better to say..'I have not experienced it, but I am not closed to possibilty considering the phenomenal universe is nothing in extension and a mystery to me.'
Consciousness works on a system of laws so allowing itself to experience itself. The fact that I cannot put my physical hand through a wall is because the boundless nature of light/consciousness is in the mode of restriction within this frequency of light. The illusion of stability is recognised through the law/equation/principle of the 'receptive I' and that which is chaotic is given the illusion of order albeit breifly. We think our lives are long but they are not. The manipulation of light into the principle of gravity is only so as long as the word/formula remains. 70 odd years stuck within the realm of restriction is ultimately meaningless, but we have tricked ourselves into giving ' ultimate reality' to something with its root is choas and ultimately nothing. This is the price we pay for becoming restricted. 'Religious ' experience is a reuniting with that unrestricted aspect of self..The return to this realisation completes the circuit of creation and we become whole. This is the what the story of Adam and Eve, and Christ is a symbol of. The fall into restricted matter and the return to unrestricted light, all together as one. This drama is happening right now, always in the moment. Adam and Eve are here as is Christ... It is a story of our consciousness right now. Religions restrict this return and vamparise those with a genuine desire to understand, slowly transforming them into vampires also.
As I understand IT, our lifes are words, restricted by their organisation and meaning and we continually believe them and suffer as a result. Light in extension. Thelema/will encorages the individual to discover that light within recognise that all essentially the play of light that has never begun or ended and is essentially nothing in extension. The universe is then unveiled and we relise ourselves as the alpha and the omega..the beginning and the end all contained within the omnipotent moment that has never moved ..that which was, is and shall always be.
There is only one true book(which is not). That is the living book we are all in. The page is the moment. the letters and words are the page dreaming itself endlessly. How so?..because IT is unconditioned and therefore all potent and capable of anything.
Relating all occult, religious texts etc to the experience of concsiousness which expresses itself as the BODY..that which you are experiencing right now, not something that happened in the past or something that might happen in the future, will reveal new ways of seeing. The practices encoraged by 'Thelema' help us to recognise the body as consciousness.,thought manifested through the principles of concepts.This is an actual experience and quite beyond the shadowy realms of the chattering mind. Awareness flowers!
Religion is the chatter of the mind..the constant repetition of projected fantasies on to past events in an attempt to justify narrow vampiric thinking.. Thelema and like schools encorage the awakening to the One moment in all its endless manifestations that never moves. Aumgn x |
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kidneyhawk |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 30, 2009 - 04:03 PM
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Quote: ›
A subjective experience is a dime a dozen and proves nothing. Maybe I have a subjective experience that I can fly. So what? It proves nothing, it's just a hallucination
Victim,
If I understand your post correctly, you are taking issue with the perception that Thelema is just another group of beliefs, justified and reinforced by subjective experiences which tend towards validating those insubstantial notions we've found appealing. I think that for some, this is quite true (and I've observed people thinking and behaving, in a "Thelemic" context, with the same psychology underlying many diverse religious convictions which might be described as above).
The issue of our "subjective" experience, however, is one that I think is important here. ALL of our experience is "subjective." It is understood and categorized and processed by our individual minds. Even our perception of others (from looking at the lunatic who thinks he can fly and thus evokes his two broken legs to the validation and reinforcement of our own perceptions of "objective reality" by cataloguing group consensus and repeated experience) REMAINS an individual perceptive field. It's YOUR "world" as it were, very different from the world of a gnat, bird or "God."
From this standpoint, we inquire into the NATURE of our experience and perception, the nature of the mind, its relationship to the body and so on. Where we came from, where we're going and what exactly is going on here forms the basic of existential and occult inquiry. These are things Crowley addressed in tremendous detail. But for as much as he laid out a philosophy expressing the unique angle of Thelema via its particular symbols, words and so on, he developed a sprawling system of practical, technical approaches which was devised to assist the individual in "going beyond themselves" into a larger apprehension of existence. The aim of this is highly energetic, the continued momentum and unfolding of what is called the "93 Current." From this angle, the tapping of the Current is not stasis through solidifying beliefs but continual movement and growth, which is immediately embodied in your experience. Assessing that experiencing and working with it is part of the discipline of "Magick." AC's work is just LOADED with constant notes meant to keep the "explorer" from falling into Will-sapping oubliettes of ego-gratifying "belief." Thus the Law which is for All is also the Law of Liberty.
I think, in this regard, michaelclarke18's comment is interesting:
Quote: ›
I don't think that members of any conventional religion are actively encouraged to develop their own link with 'the gods'...
In Kenneth Grant's Cults of the Shadow, he writes:
"It is necessary to an understanding of Crowley's Cult to grasp the occult implications of the Aeons...." He distinguishes the Aeons as follows:
The Aeon of Isis is where herd mentality dominates the race and a multiplicity of gods and goddesses are worshipped. In the Aeon of Osiris, this shifts to a single god. Grant observes: "This was an "advance" on the previous aeon in that religious consciousness involved not a multiplicity-men AND gods-but a duality of MAN and GOD....it was therefore a religion of duality, the duality of the god and the worshipper, of Subject and its Object."
This leads to his description of the Aeon of Horus:
"This dualistic approach to religion (i.e. union) will be transcended through the abolition of god and the establishment of Unity. Man will no longer worship god as an external factor-as in Paganism-or as an internal state of consciousness-as in Christianity-but will realize his identiy with "god." Hence the slogan of the Crowley Cult: There is no god but man."
Belief here gives way to Being...or the better term, Going, which is one of those terms and ideas embodied in Thelema as declared by Crowley. To Go has very little to do with belief or dogma or doors closing on a continuing advancing and expanding perceptive field. I think this is one reason why the "Crowley Programme," as it were, tends to give birth to so much varied and unique creative endeavor and action.
Ultimately, the "Thelemite" is not a "believer in Thelema" but one who is Going, embodying the Law, howsoever it is expressed or described, and liberated from the what Grant describes as "union" into the Gnosis and Action of "Unity." |
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kidneyhawk |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 30, 2009 - 04:06 PM
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Quote: ›
I was going to say...'unfortunately Thelema is subject to being dogmatised'...but ultimately it is neither fortunate or unfortunate. It is the nature of dual consciousness. That which is essentially a principle of mental and spiritual freedom must be subject to degeneration into a system of control. It is down to the individuals will. If he or she attempts to transcend the dual nature of consciousness then so be it. The proof is in the pudding. The key to getting beyond the notion of 'religion' is to 'be smart.'..read the works and Do the work. It will be a religion if you let it. It will be liberation if you let it.
Right on.  |
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michaelclarke18 |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 30, 2009 - 04:19 PM
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Quote: › oh really? you know what?
I had my reservations about joining the OTO for years, mainly because of blindly following things i read by people like you who have no idea of
Not getting angry about it or anything.......
I have come across so many who have been ''expelled'' from the OTO for various reasons, I suppose the Catholic equivalent would be 'excommunication''. In that respect - at least - it is like mainstream Christian Church, surely? |
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Los |
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Post subject: Re: Is Thelema not so different?
Posted: May 30, 2009 - 05:58 PM
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Joined: Nov 02, 2008
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93, VictimofChanges,
I responded in the thread you cited in your OP, but I will make a few points here in response to this question.
I'm a Thelemite who is both an atheist and anti-supernatural. I have no problem acknowledging that there is a world outside of myself and that my beliefs about that world have no effect on what it actually is. Hence, as you note, subjective experience is extremely fallible -- it can lead us astray, but it can also be tested against the objective world.
In fact, such testing is absolutely necessary if we're going to be in touch with reality and not fool ourselves.
Thelema, I would say, is unique among "religions" or "spiritual" systems in that it does not require faith-based beliefs; instead, it actively encourages doubt and skepticism. "Do what thou wilt" isn't a dogmatic command, but a fact of nature. Magick and mysticism are two ways (among many) that enable one to better do that will, by helping to remove the "restriction" and the "lust for result" from the process of willing. As far as we can tell, they do not work by supernatural means.
Nothing about Thelema requires belief in the supernatural in any way, shape, or form. That's part of what makes it such an excellent system for the modern world.
93, 93/93 |
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Keuthonymos |
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Post subject: Re: Is Thelema not so different?
Posted: May 30, 2009 - 06:05 PM
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Joined: May 11, 2009
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"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law."
VictimofChanges wrote: ›
If Thelema uses the same system to justify its beliefs as any other religion, then how is it anything different? If we put the actual beliefs of Thelema aside, how is it not exactly the same as (insert any religion here)?
You're taking by granted so much things about Thelema. First of all, that it's a religion, a thing that many would find wrong. Second, that all Thelemites BELIEVE in the same things, when Thelema is not (at least for me) about BELIEVING in something, but ACCEPTING the Law of Thelema.
"Success is thy proof: argue not; convert not; talk not over much!" AL III:42
It's about oneself, about knowing oneself and knowing your Will. If the experiences of others are useful, why not learn from them? If they're not, just simply put them aside. Why not learn from anything that you find useful?
If it doesn't fits with you now, there is no need for struggle, maybe later, maybe never.
"Love is the law, love under will." |
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MichaelStaley |
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Post subject: Re: Is Thelema not so different?
Posted: May 30, 2009 - 06:48 PM
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VictimofChanges wrote: › If Thelema uses the same system to justify its beliefs as any other religion, then how is it anything different? If we put the actual beliefs of Thelema aside, how is it not exactly the same as (insert any religion here)?
You seem to regards all religions as alike. Yet, how can atheist religions such as Taoism and Buddhism be classed with the likes of, for instance, Christianity and Islam?
Like some previous posters, I do not consider Thelema a religion, though I have no quarrel with those - including Crowley, perhaps - who think otherwise. Similarly, I have crossed swords with Los on a number of occasions on these boards, specifically about the value of conclusions drawn from subjective experience. However, I do in consequence regard Los as any less of a Thelemite than myself; we just have different interests and emphases, that's all.
Best wishes,
Michael. |
_________________
"It's all in the egg".
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MichaelStaley |
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Post subject: RE: Re: Is Thelema not so different?
Posted: May 30, 2009 - 06:53 PM
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Joined: Apr 21, 2004
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I meant, of course, "I do not in consequence, regard Los as any less of a Thelemite than myself ... ". I accidentally pressed the submit instead of the preview button.
In cringing contrition,
MS |
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"It's all in the egg".
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Los |
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Post subject: Re: RE: Re: Is Thelema not so different?
Posted: May 30, 2009 - 08:44 PM
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Joined: Nov 02, 2008
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MichaelStaley wrote: › I meant, of course, "I do not in consequence, regard Los as any less of a Thelemite than myself ... ". I accidentally pressed the submit instead of the preview button. Ah, Michael, I knew your true feelings would come out sooner or later.  No, I'm just kidding -- I appreciate the "shout out."
In all seriousness, I make errors like that all the time (and I usually could have *sworn* I pressed the right button). It reminds me that my perception often does not match up perfectly with reality. |
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IAO131 |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 30, 2009 - 09:12 PM
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michaelclarke18 wrote: › I don't think that members of any conventional religion are actively encouraged to develop their own link with 'the gods'...if anything, they are actively discouraged.
The angels in Roman Catholicism? The devas in Hinduism? Et cetera...?
Thelema is similar to religions in many ways. Thelema is different to religions in many ways. To take a black and white approach will necessarily lead you to contradiction and frustration.
Thelema does not encourage adherence or faith to articles of belief. If there are articles of belief, they are reinforced by direct experience. The difference between exoteric vs. esoteric religions in general is that the exoteric is adherence to a Creed based on faith and the esoteric is the adherence to a Creed based on direct experience of 'spiritual truth' (for lack of a better phrase). This latter aspect, some call it 'gnosis' to differentiate from normal knowledge and other terms, is common across a lot of 'religions' and esoteric systems and spiritualities, etc.
The thing that Crowley often says is that he is the first prophet who doesnt say 'believe me' but 'question me' and 'try our what im saying and see for yourself.' Theres a nice quote in the beginning of Liber ABA to that effect (I wont do my normal practice of quoting Crowley here!).
This can potentially get into the issue of how one verifies anything and the possibility of Truth, etc. which seems to be the subtle undercurrent of this thread anyhow. The basic difference is certainty vs. faith, personal experience over acceptance of things heard from others, etc. Im guessing most posts will take this stance in some form or another.
IAO131 |
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JackScratch |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 30, 2009 - 09:42 PM
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michaelclarke18 wrote: › Quote: › oh really? you know what?
I had my reservations about joining the OTO for years, mainly because of blindly following things i read by people like you who have no idea of
Not getting angry about it or anything.......
I have come across so many who have been ''expelled'' from the OTO for various reasons, I suppose the Catholic equivalent would be 'excommunication''. In that respect - at least - it is like mainstream Christian Church, surely?
People get expelled from school too. |
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alysa |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 30, 2009 - 10:22 PM
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| JackSratch wrote "People get expelled from school too" I don't see the comparison between a normal school and an organisation like the OTO or the Roman Christian Church. |
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FraterNepios |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 31, 2009 - 05:16 AM
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JackScratch wrote: › michaelclarke18 wrote: › Quote: › oh really? you know what?
I had my reservations about joining the OTO for years, mainly because of blindly following things i read by people like you who have no idea of
Not getting angry about it or anything.......
I have come across so many who have been ''expelled'' from the OTO for various reasons, I suppose the Catholic equivalent would be 'excommunication''. In that respect - at least - it is like mainstream Christian Church, surely?
People get expelled from school too.
And perhaps we go into anymore conclusions about being expelled we do not know the reasons for why they were expelled. hmm could it be for a good reason? |
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** Frater Νηπιοϛ=418 **
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Post subject: Is Thelema not so different?
Posted: May 31, 2009 - 07:38 AM
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FraterNepios wrote: ›
And perhaps we go into anymore conclusions about being expelled we do not know the reasons for why they were expelled. hmm could it be for a good reason?
Unlike school, the Caliphate doesn't assign homework. Sure, one must memorize the passwords, but there aren't any formal Magick or occult studies. There aren't any courses that one must pass, or fail and be expelled. In the Caliphate, the person merely participates in an Initiation ceremony every year or two, and is thereby advanced to the next Degree.
The Caliphate expulsions that we hear about are the high profile ones, and these revolve around persons who are expelled because they express the opinion that the Caliphate leadership is substandard. Is is Thelemic to expel a high ranking member for expressing his honest opinion, which in the high-profile cases is based on years of close experience with the order and its leadership? Can any organization really permit its membership to live according to the Law of Thelema?
What does Thelema mean, in practical terms of Caliphate membership? To an outsider, it appears that criticism of the leadership results in quick expulsion. Even in the Roman Catholic Church a certain amount of dissent is tolerated. Does the Caliphate encourage diversity. Does belonging to the Caliphate mean that one has to constantly watch out for some gestapo operating in the name of Thelema? Does it mean trading Ten Commandments that one is required to follow, for a bunch of other ones?
Is a Caliphate member supposed to be a Thelemite everywhere -- except inside the Caliphate itself?
Does a Caliphate Thelemite really have more freedom than an atheist who has never heard of Thelema; does he have even as much?
FIAOF |
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VictimofChanges |
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Post subject: Re: Is Thelema not so different?
Posted: May 31, 2009 - 08:16 AM
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MichaelStaley wrote: › VictimofChanges wrote: › If Thelema uses the same system to justify its beliefs as any other religion, then how is it anything different? If we put the actual beliefs of Thelema aside, how is it not exactly the same as (insert any religion here)?
You seem to regards all religions as alike. Yet, how can atheist religions such as Taoism and Buddhism be classed with the likes of, for instance, Christianity and Islam?
Like some previous posters, I do not consider Thelema a religion, though I have no quarrel with those - including Crowley, perhaps - who think otherwise. Similarly, I have crossed swords with Los on a number of occasions on these boards, specifically about the value of conclusions drawn from subjective experience. However, I do in consequence regard Los as any less of a Thelemite than myself; we just have different interests and emphases, that's all.
Best wishes,
Michael.
Thelema is proposed as a sharp breakaway from other religions, but it requires you to assume faith and personal experiences over demonstrable objective scrutiny. What I'm being especially critical of is how Thelema can claim to be somehow superior, but still works inside the framework of every other religion.
From what I've seen, if you have a Thelemite and a Christian and ask them why they believe their religion is true, they have the same answers. If you're a Thelemite and you and a Christian answer the question exactly the same, then how can you claim intellectual superiority?
If Thelema offers the same answers like-well I had this experience, or this guy I knew had this experience, or the prophet was a real neato guy and I like him a lot etc; Thelema is just another religion and religions don't have a good track record of being true or leading to a so much better life.
I don't know about Taoism, but Buddhism is not really atheistic. Buddhism has picked up lots of deities over the years and this wild assertion of the Primordial Buddha. Did Buddha set out with an atheistic religion? Maybe, I don't know. |
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VictimofChanges |
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Post subject: Re: Is Thelema not so different?
Posted: May 31, 2009 - 08:18 AM
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VictimofChanges wrote: › MichaelStaley wrote: › VictimofChanges wrote: › If Thelema uses the same system to justify its beliefs as any other religion, then how is it anything different? If we put the actual beliefs of Thelema aside, how is it not exactly the same as (insert any religion here)?
You seem to regards all religions as alike. Yet, how can atheist religions such as Taoism and Buddhism be classed with the likes of, for instance, Christianity and Islam?
Like some previous posters, I do not consider Thelema a religion, though I have no quarrel with those - including Crowley, perhaps - who think otherwise. Similarly, I have crossed swords with Los on a number of occasions on these boards, specifically about the value of conclusions drawn from subjective experience. However, I do in consequence regard Los as any less of a Thelemite than myself; we just have different interests and emphases, that's all.
Best wishes,
Michael.
Thelema is proposed as a sharp breakaway from other religions, but it requires you to assume faith and personal experiences over demonstrable objective scrutiny. What I'm being especially critical of is how Thelema can claim to be somehow superior, but still works inside the framework of every other religion.
From what I've seen, if you have a Thelemite and a Christian and ask them why they believe their religion is true, they have the same answers. If you're a Thelemite and you and a Christian answer the question exactly the same, then how can you claim intellectual superiority?
If Thelema offers the same answers like-well I had this experience, or this guy I knew had this experience, or the prophet was a real neato guy and I like him a lot etc; Thelema is just another religion and religions don't have a good track record of being true or leading to a so much better life or doing any particular good.
I don't know about Taoism, but Buddhism is not really atheistic. Buddhism has picked up lots of deities over the years and this wild assertion of the Primordial Buddha. Did Buddha set out with an atheistic religion? Maybe, I don't know. |
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hawthornrussell |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 31, 2009 - 09:17 AM
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VictimofChanges why do you think Aiwass went to the trouble of giving the symbolism for Liber Al Vel Legis Ch 3 V 51, 52, 53?
Its not exactly supportive of having tea with the vicar is it?! |
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MichaelStaley |
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Post subject: Re: Is Thelema not so different?
Posted: May 31, 2009 - 10:04 AM
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VictimofChanges wrote: › Thelema ... requires you to assume faith and personal experiences over demonstrable objective scrutiny.
What is this "demonstrable objective scrutiny" you speak of? Accepting for the sake of argument that there is an objective reality, you experience it through your senses; your knowledge of "objective reality" is through your subjective experience. So if you discount subjective experience as any guide to objective reality, what are you left with? Not a lot.
You might point to "consensus reality", but this changes across time and space. It was probably "consensus reality" amongst certain communities at one time that the sun, planets and stars revolved around the earth. Today's "consensus reality" may appear deluded tomorrow.
This is not to suggest that we take everything on trust, no matter how wild or absurd it may appear, on the grounds that we cannot rule it out. We each have our own measures of discrimination, a shifting amalgam perhaps of "consensus reality", subjective experience, intuition, aspiration etc which changes with experience.
Thelema doesn't claim to be superior; it's a natural law. Some of its proponents might make claim it as the basis of a religion that is superior to all others, but that's another matter about which I find it difficult to be concerned.
You asked in an earlier post how you might know that you were not crazy. The short answer is that you don't; these are shifting sands.
Best wishes,
Michael. |
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alrah |
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Post subject: RE: Re: Is Thelema not so different?
Posted: May 31, 2009 - 11:33 AM
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If the Caliphate expell a member for being insuffiently attuned to thier school, then it may be in the best interests of everyone. The person so expelled may have enough talent to develop thier own school, appealing to students they can be most benefit to. At the end of the day all that's really important to anyone is the enlightenment of others, and in this sense - all true masters are servants to all true schools.
Love under Will. |
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Form is the mind's abacus - Dar es Alrah.
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Ayna |
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Post subject: RE: Re: Is Thelema not so different?
Posted: May 31, 2009 - 12:45 PM
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Quote: › If Thelema uses the same system to justify its beliefs as any other religion, then how is it anything different? If we put the actual beliefs of Thelema aside, how is it not exactly the same as (insert any religion here)?
First of all,the very idea of justification of anything is ,from my point of view, in odds with common sense,and not very practical one,may I add.
Second, I do agree that Thelema can be viewed as some other religions or systems of belief; no arguments on that part,as far as I'm concerned.
As Crowley states in Liber ABA ,we can argue that (for example) experience of Dhyana is actually caused by some sort of brain spasm,or "possibly even breaking of a small vessel"; if that would be so,you can interpret your experience as such - from physiological point of view.If that would be your choice ,that shouldn't stop you from enjoying psychological or any other benefits,if there are any, of Dhyana experience;or that your physiological explanation of Dhyana should deny practical value(again,if there is any) of non physical phenomena that is a result physiological,therefore,physical occurrence.
Quote: › … but it requires you to assume faith and personal experiences over demonstrable objective scrutiny.
Now,this simply isn't true.Choose as ye will,Thelema doesn’t have that kind of preferences.
There is only one “lawful” course of action in any given situation,and that is the only criteria on what is preferable.Besides,”demonstrable objective scrutiny”?Michael Staley already elaborated on that part…
By the way,this is my first post here,93 and greetings all |
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Sphynx |
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Post subject: Expelling
Posted: May 31, 2009 - 01:19 PM
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michaelclarke18 wrote: › I have come across so many who have been ''expelled'' from the [Order] for various reasons, I suppose the Catholic equivalent would be 'excommunication''. In that respect - at least - it is like mainstream Christian Church, surely?
It sure is interesting that anyone can be "expelled" from an Order whose first degree rite clearly states:
"Therefore, I pause, and declare; up to now, nothing has been done which would make it impossible for you to withdraw. But if you still persist, then NOTHING will ever enable you to sever the ties which you are now about to form with us and our Order."
Well, one can always argue that the statement says "... nothing will ever enable YOU to sever the ties ...", but that the initiators (WE) reserve the right to sever those ties.
So, if the ties REALLY cannot be severed, then "expelling" is a joke and the member continues his/her inherent ["etheric"] membership regardless of what the "people in charge" do, and the Order is really something special.
Or, on the other hand, if the ties REALLY can be severed, and "expelling" is for real and the member loses his/her inherent ["etheric"] membership because the "people in charge" have so decided, then the Order is really nothing special - it's just another temporary group.
So which is it? Can the ties be severed or not? |
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IAO131 |
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Post subject: Re: Expelling
Posted: May 31, 2009 - 05:16 PM
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Sphynx wrote: › michaelclarke18 wrote: › I have come across so many who have been ''expelled'' from the [Order] for various reasons, I suppose the Catholic equivalent would be 'excommunication''. In that respect - at least - it is like mainstream Christian Church, surely?
It sure is interesting that anyone can be "expelled" from an Order whose first degree rite clearly states:
"Therefore, I pause, and declare; up to now, nothing has been done which would make it impossible for you to withdraw. But if you still persist, then NOTHING will ever enable you to sever the ties which you are now about to form with us and our Order."
Well, one can always argue that the statement says "... nothing will ever enable YOU to sever the ties ...", but that the initiators ( WE) reserve the right to sever those ties.
So, if the ties REALLY cannot be severed, then "expelling" is a joke and the member continues his/her inherent ["etheric"] membership regardless of what the "people in charge" do, and the Order is really something special.
Or, on the other hand, if the ties REALLY can be severed, and "expelling" is for real and the member loses his/her inherent ["etheric"] membership because the "people in charge" have so decided, then the Order is really nothing special - it's just another temporary group.
So which is it? Can the ties be severed or not?
The ties are 'magical' and 'occult' - one is symbolically 'born' into the Order. How about you read the basic documents on the OTO website fi you dont know about the simple things?
OTO doesnt kick people out for expressing the opinion that leadership is substandard. You have to do a little more than that. Im aware of many high level members who routinely criticize OTO but they do so in a legitimate way. There are systems set up in the OTO for arbitration of disputes. Its not perfect but its there. To say that OTO expels people for disagreeing or expressing frustrating with leadership is just plain wrong - I wonder what kind of motive you (not you Sphynx, the other fellow) for saying these things?
Formally, bonds with the OTO can be severed. You wont be asked for dues, you wont be allowed at functions/initiations, etc... but you will still have a symbolic-magical connection to the Order. I think the latter bit is just as big hocus-pocus as the GD's threat that a magical current will strike you down... but thats me!
Either way, all this seems rather off-topic.
The difference between Thelema and Christianity if you ask why they believe would normally give diametrically opposite answers. CHristian: I have faith, I believe in the Bible, the Bible is the Word of God, the Word of God is infallible, it says so in the Bible, Jesus loves me and died for my sins, etc. It is faith in systems given to you from others. Thelemites will most likely answer: Success is your proof. Thelema isnt inherently superior in some kin of Cosmic Justice Scale, it just works better, it takes away a lot of the dross of old systems, leaves the gold, and adds a unique emotional-aesthetic-symbolic relation to the universe with ourselves as Stars (the starry heaven was said to obey the divine laws, but if we are all stars we too obey that divine law, etc.). Either way, saying "I have faith" and "I know it works" are very different truth-value statements. When you get into tricky territory is direct experience - there ARE some people who say "I had a powerful experiecne where Jesus visited me, God gave me his love, the HOly Spirit came up within me, etc." whereas a Thelemite might say "I attained K&C of HGA, Crossed the Abyss, etc." Really, this is a very sketchy territory as it goes into the validity of visions (defined broadly as altered states), the interference of the mind (its culture/prejudices) on interpreting visions, etc. The thing is that I realize that people have experiences that 'justify' their current belief system - because I study psychology it seems the obvious answer is that their psyche colors the experience. This same idea appears in Crowley's writings (Liber Causae, Liber Porta Lucis, line 2 of chapter 1 of Liber LXV, etc.) In a large way its personal-aesthetic preference. Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law, after all. I think the thing I am getting at is that people dont accept Thelema because it is necessarily more metaphysically superior/true.
IAO131 |
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Tiger |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 31, 2009 - 05:16 PM
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It is only natural that as soon as a powerful organization becomes a legal entity Secret Gestapo Stasi CIA agents will infiltrate it. That is why codes are changed. The Old Aeonic Lodge system with its patriarchal influence symbolized by Solomon and the like are riddled with such clap trap.
That is why freedom to find and do your will creatively opens up new approaches to modify traditional concepts beyond the institutional fraternal initiation indoctrination techniques.
Most Buddhist systems get around attachment with the phrase "Not that there is God Not that there isn't"
It is considered the middle path between Eternalism and Nihilism.
Crowley I believe mentions in one of the Equinoxes that by using the Tree of Life he created something out of nothing. |
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IAO131 |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 31, 2009 - 05:18 PM
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Tiger wrote: › It is only natural that as soon as a powerful organization becomes a legal entity Secret Gestapo Stasi CIA agents will infiltrate it. That is why codes are changed. The Old Aeonic Lodge system with its patriarchal influence symbolized by Solomon and the like are riddled with such clap trap.
That is why freedom to find and do your will creatively opens up new approaches to modify traditional concepts beyond the institutional fraternal initiation indoctrination techniques.
Most Buddhist systems get around attachment with the phrase "Not that there is God Not that there isn't"
It is considered the middle path between Eternalism and Nihilism.
Crowley I believe mentions in one of the Equinoxes that by using the Tree of Life he created something out of nothing.
In all due respect: This is a load of gibberish to me, if I may say so.
IAO131 |
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michaelclarke18 |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 31, 2009 - 05:58 PM
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| I think many organisations have 'conservative' elements; those who benefit most from the status quo and who seek to perpetuate their own enrichment. This is usually manifest by control through a combination of means. |
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Post subject: Re: Expelling
Posted: May 31, 2009 - 06:04 PM
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IAO131 wrote: ›
OTO doesnt kick people out for expressing the opinion that leadership is substandard. You have to do a little more than that. Im aware of many high level members who routinely criticize OTO but they do so in a legitimate way. There are systems set up in the OTO for arbitration of disputes. Its not perfect but its there. To say that OTO expels people for disagreeing or expressing frustrating with leadership is just plain wrong - I wonder what kind of motive you (not you Sphynx, the other fellow) for saying these things?
I'm not a member of the Caliphate and have to rely on published sources as to why these people were expelled from the Caliphate. Numerous Web sites explain the expulsions in words similar to this:
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http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread452346/pg1
"The governing body of the Caliphate has been operating under questionable ethics. It appears, at least on the surface, that the current policy is to expel anyone who publicly disagrees with, or questions, the current Frater Superior of the Order, and many of the O.T.O.'s biggest talents have been dealt with in this manner. This goes against the Crowley policy of complete freedom of conscience (see Liber OZ). I would suggest perusing John Crowe's podcasts at www.thelemacoasttocoast.com and his blog at www.thelema.nu
Crowe is by no means not the only high ranking member of O.T.O. to be kicked out because he upset the current leader, but is one of the most outspoken ones."
----
Do you have information -- that you can document and post here -- that proves all of these sources are wrong?
FIAOF |
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Los |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 31, 2009 - 06:09 PM
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IAO131 wrote: › If there are articles of belief, they are reinforced by direct experience. But what VictimofChanges appears to be saying, basically, is that a great deal of religious people claim similar "direct experience" of the supernatural. The Hindu believes himself to be in touch with Shiva; the Christian claims to talk to Jesus; the Muslim claims to feel the presence of his god; the Zoroastrian claims to speak with his god.
Each has equally had a direct experience. Yet clearly they cannot all be correct. "I had an experience" is a bad standard of evidence for accepting a claim.
VictimofChanges is asking whether the Thelemite who (for example) has a "direct experience" of past lives, preterhuman intelligences, or the astral plane and concludes that they are real is -- putting the actual claim itself aside for a moment -- any different than the Christian who has a "direct experience" of god and concludes that gay marriage is evil.
The answer is no, he would be no different. A Thelemite who accepts claims on the basis that "I experienced it" would be using the same bad standard of evidence as the average religionist who "experiences" god and concludes that gay marriage is evil.
But, as I explained in my previous post, it's not necessary to accept any of those supernatural claims to be a Thelemite.Thelema does not require you to "assume faith and personal experiences over demonstrable objective scrutiny." The main concept of Thelema, the will, is not supernatural in the slightest.
"Demonstrable objective scrutiny" not only exists, it has a very simple meaning -- measuring claims (and experience) against reality. While it's true that our sensory input is subjective, the senses are consantly confirming one another (the hands can feel what the eyes tell us are there, etc.) and confirming the senses of others (I can investigate the table in front of me with other people).
Though our senses are fallible, we have managed to build up a picture of objective reality that is accurate enough to yield results (science and technology that have actually improved lives).
While we might never know anything with 100% certainty, we can use the clear picture of objective reality that we've built up to help determine which claims are likely to be true or likely to be false.
There is simply no good evidence for supernatural claims -- given what we know now, they are very, very likely to be false.
[P.S. All this OTO stuff is rather irrelevant to the thread topic...before any more of the initiation rituals get posted -- which might cause the thread to be closed -- could you guys please take your little fight somewhere else?] |
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