Every morning when I wake up, I experience an exquisite joy — the joy of being Salvador Dalí — and I ask myself in rapture, ‘What wonderful things this Salvador Dalí is going to accomplish today?’
Post subject: Discovering the True Will... Posted: Jul 04, 2009 - 05:14 PM
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Tell me where is fancy bred – in the heart or in the head?
When is an emotion not an emotion? When it is not felt in the body. The english language is very descriptive and subtle, but that can work to obscure some very basic truths that can aid us in discovering the true will by practising non attachment.
In a recent conversation with Mika on a.m. she characterised doubt, suspicion, and a hunch as feelings, and backed this up with their dictionary definitions. And while it’s true that the dictionary does define these states as feelings, it is not clear that they are. Where is doubt, suspicion or a hunch *felt* in the body? If I doubt that my computer will remain working for the next year, then that is a piece of cognition that may or may not be true. It’s only if I am attached to my computer working that I may feel an emotion about it’s redundancy – and that emotion is fear. It may be fear of a rather weak and watery sort, but that’s what it is.
Any true emotions are felt in the body, as a change of the normal workings of the bodies equilibrium, but what people often do is imagine themselves to be capable of a whole range of rather flowery emotional states as described by poets and romantic writers. In order to address attachment then it’s helpful to identify the basic emotion and seperate it from the thoughts. I think my computer may not stay working for the next year, and I feel fear at the thought. These are two seperate things. Now fear in a situation such as Erwin’s example of entering a lions den is perfectly useful and natural. Fear is a bodily response keyed to our sense of bodily self preservation (ultimately – attachment to the body), but when we feel fear that is associated with an image of ourself, or associated with something the image of ourself wants, when this is obviously an animal reaction that is misplaced, and in ordinary human beings there are probably hundreds of thousands of such misplaced associations. The reason why practise and paying attention to the *now* is so important to the discovery of the true will, is that it takes effort to deconstruct those wrongful assoications that have become a matter of habit.
Now when we are addressing these misplaced associations, it is not helpful to believe that you are capable of hundreds of different emotional states as defined by dictionary definitions. Like the colours of the rainbow – there are actually about 7, but when when artists talk about the colour spectrum they have a ton of useful words for the colour red – scarlet, ruby, kermes, vermilion, crimson etc, that are all different shades of red. Some of these reds are intense and some watery, but they are all red. What we need to do is to pay attention to the emotional scale in a similar manner. We have tons of different definitions of emotions, but the fact is we have about 7 that are felt with greater or lesser power to disturb our bodily equilibrium and if you feel 6 of them then you will discover that there is some sort of attachment riding along with them. Only love (agape) is free from attachement, and this is the natural equilibrium state of the human body. Thus Love under Will is our foundation.
mika
Post subject: Re: Discovering the True Will... Posted: Jul 04, 2009 - 09:24 PM
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alrah wrote: › Any true emotions are felt in the body
So, everyone who experiences emotions differently from you are not experiencing "true" emotions?
alrah wrote: › In order to address attachment then it’s helpful to identify the basic emotion and seperate it from the thoughts.
Perhaps it's helpful for you, but it's not necessary.
alrah wrote: › The reason why practise and paying attention to the *now* is so important to the discovery of the true will, is that it takes effort to deconstruct those wrongful assoications that have become a matter of habit.
No. Paying attention to "the now" is so important to the discovery of will because experiencing the present moment is the only way one can directly perceive reality. Anything outside of "the now" is a construct of the mind.
Also: it is not necessary to deconstruct wrongful, or any other, associations, in order to act according to one's will. All that is needed is to be able to discern between reality and the fantasies of the mind (such as habitual associations). I don't need to deconstruct the habit, but only to recognize it for what it is, action that is based on a fantasy.
Deconstruction is just another distraction of the mind, another fantasy to indulge in while avoiding living in the reality of the moment. It's a way for you to convince yourself you're "doing the work" while avoiding the actual work you really need to be doing in order to learn to act according to your will.
alrah
Post subject: Re: Discovering the True Will... Posted: Jul 04, 2009 - 10:13 PM
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mika wrote: › So, everyone who experiences emotions differently from you are not experiencing "true" emotions?
Not at all. There's an argument that everyone see's Red differently, and I don't see why that shouldn't cover emotions also. But at the end of the day it's fairly irrelevent. The basic emotions that really are emotions have been documented across the spectrum of humanity.
alrah wrote: › In order to address attachment then it’s helpful to identify the basic emotion and seperate it from the thoughts.
mika wrote: › Perhaps it's helpful for you, but it's not necessary.
No - you are welcome to make matters more complicated than needful for yourself.
alrah wrote: › The reason why practise and paying attention to the *now* is so important to the discovery of the true will, is that it takes effort to deconstruct those wrongful assoications that have become a matter of habit.
mika wrote: › No. Paying attention to "the now" is so important to the discovery of will because experiencing the present moment is the only way one can directly perceive reality. Anything outside of "the now" is a construct of the mind.
Actually - everything of what ordinarily occurs in the now is a construct of the mind. The khabs in is the Khu.
mika wrote: › Also: it is not necessary to deconstruct wrongful, or any other, associations, in order to act according to one's will. All that is needed is to be able to discern between reality and the fantasies of the mind (such as habitual associations). I don't need to deconstruct the habit, but only to recognize it for what it is, action that is based on a fantasy.
Yes - this is Mika's workshy magic bullet again. If your TV could switch itself on according to some attachment cue a hundred time a day and interrupt your way of living you *can* just chuck it out of the window, but that isn't something you can do with the mind or the emotions. What you can do is train them with work and actual practise so that they switch on maybe once or twice a day and you just laugh at them instead of getting annoyed and suffering.
mika wrote: › Deconstruction is just another distraction of the mind, another fantasy to indulge in while avoiding living in the reality of the moment. It's a way for you to convince yourself you're "doing the work" while avoiding the actual work you really need to be doing in order to learn to act according to your will.
In order to recognise a fantasy (such as the so called *feeling* of doubt) then you need to know what a fantasy is in order to have any clue as how to continue. Otherwise your progress is going to be predicated upon superfluous self aggrandisement and pride in finding what you think is an easy fix. If you actually do do the work then you'll find that discrimination of this sort becomes second nature and you retrain yourself away from habitually acting upon silly programming, which means that the *now* does indeed become free of fantasy and distraction and a place where true will can manifest with love. Not doing the work just means that you're ignoring the TV everytime it switches itself on - a bit like Pirsigs tap analogy.
MichaelStaley
Post subject: Re: Discovering the True Will... Posted: Jul 04, 2009 - 11:34 PM
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mika wrote: › No. Paying attention to "the now" is so important to the discovery of will because experiencing the present moment is the only way one can directly perceive reality. Anything outside of "the now" is a construct of the mind.need to be doing in order to learn to act according to your will.
I agree with alrah on this point. "The now" is a construct simply because we are not experiencing it directly, but interpreting it via our senses. Thus "Now" is no less a construct than "past" or "future".
Whether an objective reality exists or not, it's unlikely that we can experience it directly using the five senses that are generally accepted. I would count intuition as the sixth sense, but would prefer not to upset the reductionists amongst us.
Actually I think that intuition is the most useful tool we have when it comes to discovering the True Will.
Best wishes,
Michael.
_________________ "It's all in the egg".
mika
Post subject: Re: Discovering the True Will... Posted: Jul 05, 2009 - 01:42 AM
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MichaelStaley wrote: ›
mika wrote: › No. Paying attention to "the now" is so important to the discovery of will because experiencing the present moment is the only way one can directly perceive reality. Anything outside of "the now" is a construct of the mind
I agree with alrah on this point. "The now" is a construct simply because we are not experiencing it directly, but interpreting it via our senses.
If you paid attention to what I actually wrote, you'd see that I never claimed that nothing inside "the now" is a construct of the mind.
MichaelStaley wrote: › Thus "Now" is no less a construct than "past" or "future".
No. "Now" may or may not be a construct of the mind; "past" and "future" are absolutely, utterly and completely constructs of the mind.
Again: the only way to directly experience reality (or if you prefer, the closest one can come to directly experiencing reality) is in the present moment. If you don't understand the qualitative difference between experiencing the present moment and contemplating the past or future, you have a lot of practical work to do before understanding such concepts as living according to one's will.
mika
Post subject: Re: Discovering the True Will... Posted: Jul 05, 2009 - 02:53 AM
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Is that what you're doing? Trying to shut off your emotions to avoid the annoyance of experiencing them? How sad.
By the way, training yourself to switch off your emotions is called repression. It's generally not psychologically healthy, and certainly not "magick".
You don't need to deconstruct your thoughts and emotions in order to learn how to recognize them for the fantasies they are, just as you don't need to understand optical physics in order to learn how to spot a mirage. As I keep telling you, your obsession with analyzing your emotions and such nonsense as trying to "train them with work and actual practise so that they switch on maybe once or twice a day" is a distraction, a way for you to convince yourself you're "doing the work" while avoiding the actual work you really need to be doing
zardoz
Post subject: Re: Discovering the True Will... Posted: Jul 05, 2009 - 04:59 AM
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MichaelStaley wrote: ›
Actually I think that intuition is the most useful tool we have when it comes to discovering the True Will.
Best wishes,
Michael.
I would say instinct, intuition, and common sense.
alrah
Post subject: Re: Discovering the True Will... Posted: Jul 05, 2009 - 08:45 AM
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mika wrote: ›
alrah wrote: › If your TV could switch itself on according to some attachment cue a hundred time a day and interrupt your way of living you *can* just chuck it out of the window, but that isn't something you can do with the mind or the emotions. What you can do is train them with work and actual practise so that they switch on maybe once or twice a day and you just laugh at them instead of getting annoyed and suffering.
Is that what you're doing? Trying to shut off your emotions to avoid the annoyance of experiencing them? How sad.
By the way, training yourself to switch off your emotions is called repression. It's generally not psychologically healthy, and certainly not "magick".
Certainly not. I'm saying that with practise the mental chatter that comes from attachment and causes mental and emotinal suffering can be overcome. No one is switching off the emotions. It's important to pay attention to them, in the now in order to address the attachment. What get's 'switched off' is the false self image and it's wants.
mika wrote: ›
You don't need to deconstruct your thoughts and emotions in order to learn how to recognize them for the fantasies they are, just as you don't need to understand optical physics in order to learn how to spot a mirage. As I keep telling you, your obsession with analyzing your emotions and such nonsense as trying to "train them with work and actual practise so that they switch on maybe once or twice a day" is a distraction, a way for you to convince yourself you're "doing the work" while avoiding the actual work you really need to be doing
Yes - ultimately everything that is not Love under Will is a fantasy, but merely by acknowledging that does not stop your self image from trying to run the show. If someone has a phobia they can acknowledge that it's a fantasy but it's not going to help them stop being afraid. You yourself acknowledged this point to Absorbed the other day.
Azoneris
Post subject: RE: Re: Discovering the True Will... Posted: Jul 05, 2009 - 09:18 AM
Some of my views on the subject...
Whereas we might usually experience time as a totally separate aspect, it is really a byproduct of our consciousness & mind - built from memories from the past and from visions from the future. In magical workings and rituals magician works between past and future, in the present and "Now". One also has to reach the state of being present in order to seek personal will. The True Will is the dynamic aspect of the Self, and therefore it is not static and stagnated into static concepts, as are usual ways of doing in "normal" humans "normal" lives. One big separating aspect is the so-called Lust of result, which usually stands on the way of doing ones True Will. I feel that people are usually really afraid to live without big plans (almost?) for the rest of their lives. One reason why I see why Thelema is the law of the strong is that Thelemites dare to face the unknown and to strive forward, and simply to do what they feel is right on every moment through 93 93/93-principles. Also without being "perished by the dogs of because" - just look at this world and peoples usual reasons to do what they do. Those somehow make sense and can (and should) be understood like everything else below too,but there is some much more beyond! Best example in following ones will with total dedication is of course Aleister Crowley itself,and his life and Great Work.
About thoughts and about their reality and how to deal when they appear: I usually try to "open" my thoughts and to discover those in theory, and to think where and why those really appear. This is useful, especially when negative thoughts appear. It has been a relief to notice I am not the same as my feelings and thoughts are, and I may (when needed) just let those "come into an empty house",but as an aspect of self-discovery, I think it`s necessary to spend time thinking about their origin and birth. This of course depends on the path, and I am naturally writing from the perspective of mine.
93
_________________ "The inner flame in seven-one-eight,
Lifting up the universal weight.
Ninety-three and four-one-eight,
Only the bounds of Cosmos will define the height."
93 93/93
alrah
Post subject: RE: Re: Discovering the True Will... Posted: Jul 05, 2009 - 09:37 AM
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I agree Azoneris. It's only by being in the now that we can pay attention to what is actually happening, and it's only by seeing the consequences of our attachment; by *really* feeling them that we recognise the need to let go of them. When we really feel the consequences of our attachment then letting go happens, and we return to a state of natural equilibrium - Love under Will.
_________________ Form is the mind's abacus - Dar es Alrah.
alrah
Post subject: RE: Re: Discovering the True Will... Posted: Jul 05, 2009 - 10:02 AM
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The abbot Ajahn Munindo once likened attachment to a monkey in a zoo. The monkey can put his hand through the bars of the cage only if it's open. When you give him a banana he closes his fist, but then he can't pull his hand with the banana back through. He just sits there in his cage wanting that banana and he won't drop it for ages until he forgets about it. Now the monkey isn't smart enough to see the consequences of his suffering. He just keeps suffering and holding onto to that banana. Human beings are quite a bit smarter than monkeys. If we pay attention then we can see the consequences of our clinging to self image and attachment - we can *feel* how attachment makes us suffer, and that gives us the willingness to drop the banana. If we don't pay attention to the now we never really recognise the consequences of our attachment or see any need to let them go. Banana's are nice, want banana, focus on banana, grasp banana, can't get my banana but bananas are nice, want banana... we loop round and around until we notice - shit, this wanting a banana business is making me feel really bad!
_________________ Form is the mind's abacus - Dar es Alrah.
Azoneris
Post subject: Re: RE: Re: Discovering the True Will... Posted: Jul 05, 2009 - 10:13 AM
alrah wrote: › The abbot Ajahn Munindo once likened attachment to a monkey in a zoo. The monkey can put his hand through the bars of the cage only if it's open. When you give him a banana he closes his fist, but then he can't pull his hand with the banana back through. He just sits there in his cage wanting that banana and he won't drop it for ages until he forgets about it. Now the monkey isn't smart enough to see the consequences of his suffering. He just keeps suffering and holding onto to that banana. Human beings are quite a bit smarter than monkeys. If we pay attention then we can see the consequences of our clinging to self image and attachment - we can *feel* how attachment makes us suffer, and that gives us the willingness to drop the banana. If we don't pay attention to the now we never really recognise the consequences of our attachment or see any need to let them go. Banana's are nice, want banana, focus on banana, grasp banana, can't get my banana but bananas are nice, want banana... we loop round and around until we notice - shit, this wanting a banana business is making me feel really bad!
We are able as humans to feel more gently than the monkey - we can create cause & reason-relationships more rationally and specificly , which is something that monkey can also do, BUT only very primitively.
_________________ "The inner flame in seven-one-eight,
Lifting up the universal weight.
Ninety-three and four-one-eight,
Only the bounds of Cosmos will define the height."
93 93/93
alrah
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: Discovering the True Will... Posted: Jul 05, 2009 - 11:14 AM
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We certainly can. If someones self image is insulted they may feeling anything from anger (a bright red) to mere irritation which is a watery version of the primal emotion - a weakly felt anger, (like a reddish tinge). However - the response (as part of practise) to both of them is the same; the recognition that they are caused by an attachment to self image, otherwise we would not feel either strong or weak anger at an insult, so the strength of an emotion is actually irrelevant.
Sometimes our emotional responses are conditioned by the society we live in. For instance if a businessman is failing at his job in Holland and feels shame about it, it is common for businessmen in that society to react to shame by taking more time off from work and withdrawing, whereas in the philipines the businessmans common reaction to shame at failing at his job is to redouble his efforts to suceed. There is an underlying desire to fit in and express the emotions expected from you by society, so sometimes people find it more difficult to acknowledge thier true emotions and tackle their attachments out of fear of not fitting in.
We can create very refined cause-reasons rationally and specifically, but emotions stem from a primitive limbic part of the brain. Put the two together and you've got castles in the sky.
_________________ Form is the mind's abacus - Dar es Alrah.
lashtal
Post subject: Re: RE: Re: Discovering the True Will... Posted: Jul 05, 2009 - 12:14 PM
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Azoneris wrote: › Also without being "perished by the dogs of because"
You are perhaps referring to AL II;27:
"He shall fall down into the pit called Because, and there he shall perish with the dogs of Reason."
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Azoneris
Post subject: Re: RE: Re: Discovering the True Will... Posted: Jul 05, 2009 - 12:43 PM
Azoneris wrote: › Also without being "perished by the dogs of because"
You are perhaps referring to AL II;27:
"He shall fall down into the pit called Because, and there he shall perish with the dogs of Reason."
93
Yes. In my opinion that part of Liber AL can be interpreted (also/for example) in a way that people create such an rational theories, but which somehow are true but somehow then... are NOT. I`ve seen people doing more than most of the people could theorize by thinking and I feel that I`ve personally many times crossed this kind of personal "Because" by just following my heart and doing what I feel that is my will. This kind of experiencing has been one of the directionguiders until this day for me. Truth is many-dimensional and paradoxical, not linear, like many people seem to think. Alas!
93/93
_________________ "The inner flame in seven-one-eight,
Lifting up the universal weight.
Ninety-three and four-one-eight,
Only the bounds of Cosmos will define the height."
93 93/93
lashtal
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: Discovering the True Will... Posted: Jul 05, 2009 - 01:03 PM
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Note that AL doesn't say that he will perish "by" the dogs of Reason, but WITH them. It's precisely because of this sort of thing that the Book requires accuracy in reproduction.
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Azoneris
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: Discovering the True Will... Posted: Jul 05, 2009 - 01:15 PM
Btw. When it comes to Agape. In Greek there are many kinds of loves, and they are described a lot more specificly than for example in Finnish languange. As there was talk about Agape even on the first post, I`ll start this. Maybe I`ll find answers or at least create a good conversation. So, I`ve read about this kind of descriptions from certain sources:
Agape.) Divine love. Love, that is like a all-devouring love. It is received as so powerful force that human usually can`t deliver it all forward, and many times people quit social communication and become hermits after receiving this huge love.
Eros) Furious and erotic love, Passion.
Filos.) Love which keeps couples together after the eros-phase is over, more like friend-type love.
I was reading it from the viewpoint of "agape/thelema=93", so you`ll understand my interest and maybe a small confusion.
Any thoughts? I see agape in thelemic context as a huge love for the union of Nuit and Hadit, not as any solitary life. I still pay a lot of interest if someone here knows more about the Agape as separate from Thelema, and more about its definitions etc.
_________________ "The inner flame in seven-one-eight,
Lifting up the universal weight.
Ninety-three and four-one-eight,
Only the bounds of Cosmos will define the height."
93 93/93
Azoneris
Post subject: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Discovering the True Will... Posted: Jul 05, 2009 - 01:17 PM
lashtal wrote: › Note that AL doesn't say that he will perish "by" the dogs of Reason, but WITH them. It's precisely because of this sort of thing that the Book requires accuracy in reproduction.
Ok, thanks from advice.
_________________ "The inner flame in seven-one-eight,
Lifting up the universal weight.
Ninety-three and four-one-eight,
Only the bounds of Cosmos will define the height."
93 93/93
alrah
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Discovering the True Will... Posted: Jul 05, 2009 - 03:57 PM
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As far as agape goes Azoneris.... love without attachment... perhaps this is one of those things that suffers from too much analysis.
_________________ Form is the mind's abacus - Dar es Alrah.
Azoneris
Post subject: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Discovering the True Will... Posted: Jul 05, 2009 - 05:47 PM
alrah wrote: › As far as agape goes Azoneris.... love without attachment... perhaps this is one of those things that suffers from too much analysis.
I have had same kind of thoughts on the subject.
_________________ "The inner flame in seven-one-eight,
Lifting up the universal weight.
Ninety-three and four-one-eight,
Only the bounds of Cosmos will define the height."
93 93/93
Los
Post subject: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Discovering the True Will... Posted: Jul 05, 2009 - 09:41 PM
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The thing about emotion is that it can often cloud our ability to see what is actually right in front of us. This applies both to big and small issues. For example, one's fondness for, and emotional attachment to, the stories of one's childhood religion could cause one to conclude falsely that "there must be an intelligence behind existence." Alternatively, one's fear in a situation might cause one to misinterpret even the slightest action -- being nervous at a business meeting, for example, might cause you to misinterpret the sound of shuffling papers as "oh no, my audience is bored with me" and freaking out further.
In those examples -- and in countless more we could dream up -- emotion, imagination, reason (incorrectly employed), and attachment are mixed in varying degrees to create a false picture of reality.
Paying attention to the Now and distinguishing -- to the best of one's ability -- between what's happening inside your head and out there in reality is the best way to do this (the only way?).
There's certainly only one way to get better at this: practice. In Book IV part II, Crowley recommends observing things that normally provoke a strong emotional reaction in you and then attempting to see through the fog of emotion to perceive things as they actually are. He suggests starting with watching surgeries and dancing girls. I'd say that the nightly news is a good place to start as well. TV programs with images of starving children, maybe?
Azoneris wrote: › I feel that people are usually really afraid to live without big plans (almost?) for the rest of their lives.
Good observation. Of course, this isn't to say that one shouldn't plan for the future -- but rather that one should not be attached to those tentative plans (to the point that one is disappointed if or when they don't pan out).
Azoneris wrote: › I`ve personally many times crossed this kind of personal "Because" by just following my heart and doing what I feel that is my will.
I'm not sure that "follow your heart" or, as I said on another thread, "follow your dreams" is a good summary of the Law of Thelema. And I also think that following what you "feel" is your will is too vague to be useful, as "feelings," along with the "intuition" that Michael mentioned earlier, are too easily caught up in false images of the self and reality.
I think the process we've been discussing -- distinguishing between what actually is and what is simply in your mind -- is the best way to discover and accomplish your true will.
Azoneris wrote: › I was reading it from the viewpoint of "agape/thelema=93", so you`ll understand my interest and maybe a small confusion. Any thoughts?
Well, first of all, I wouldn't attribute any importance to the meaning of "agape" in Greek or as used in another system (like Christianity). We're talking specifically about the use of love in Thelema.
"Love," in this context, isn't an emotion, but the process of union. It's the losing of one's sense of separateness through experience (see AL I:29). One's union with experience, of course, needs to be "under will" -- to occur along the path of one's True Will. This process entails perceiving things as they are and accepting them as they are, not as one wishes them to be.
When you are paying attention to reality as you wish it to be, you're boxed up in your head, separating yourself from the reality -- the becoming -- of which you are a part.
Azoneris
Post subject: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Discovering the True Will... Posted: Jul 05, 2009 - 10:49 PM
los wrote: › Good observation. Of course, this isn't to say that one shouldn't plan for the future -- but rather that one should not be attached to those tentative plans (to the point that one is disappointed if or when they don't pan out).
I`ll tell you one example, from my personal life. I used to have a hobby, which I felt was my whole life for seven years, and I became kinda good in that `cause I practised a lot. I had a lot of dreams very much, but when there came a time when I felt that inner direction is directing me to the other direction, I was ready to leave those dreams and follow what I really felt to be my path. This is one example of a case where dreams and visions are not something that shouldn`t be created, but if so; those should exist for you - instead of the other way around-case.
los wrote: › I'm not sure that "follow your heart" or, as I said on another thread, "follow your dreams" is a good summary of the Law of Thelema. And I also think that following what you "feel" is your will is too vague to be useful, as "feelings," along with the "intuition" that Michael mentioned earlier, are too easily caught up in false images of the self and reality.
I think the process we've been discussing -- distinguishing between what actually is and what is simply in your mind -- is the best way to discover and accomplish your true will.
I don`t, here on my 21 years age, perceive myself as capable of seeing my true will as easily as a person who has been into thelema actively (and with success) for example 30-40 years. Though I could say my head high that I am a person who relies a lot into my intuition and feelings, and with very comfortable and natural touch, I don`t bring into action every immediate thought and intuition. Like Lon Milo DuQuette said something like, if one would know his will all the time and what to do for every second, the mental state of that certain person would be unbelievable. I feel I need to be at the same time in this case; 1.) to be careful, BUT at the same time 2.) to be very brave and indulging - this duality makes it sometimes hard, but there is always joy.
los wrote: › Well, first of all, I wouldn't attribute any importance to the meaning of "agape" in Greek or as used in another system (like Christianity). We're talking specifically about the use of love in Thelema.
"Love," in this context, isn't an emotion, but the process of union. It's the losing of one's sense of separateness through experience (see AL I:29). One's union with experience, of course, needs to be "under will" -- to occur along the path of one's True Will. This process entails perceiving things as they are and accepting them as they are, not as one wishes them to be.
When you are paying attention to reality as you wish it to be, you're boxed up in your head, separating yourself from the reality -- the becoming -- of which you are a part.
Well stated.
93 93/93
_________________ "The inner flame in seven-one-eight,
Lifting up the universal weight.
Ninety-three and four-one-eight,
Only the bounds of Cosmos will define the height."
93 93/93
mika
Post subject: Re: Discovering the True Will... Posted: Jul 05, 2009 - 11:29 PM
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Really? No one is switching off the emotions? You just wrote, and I even quoted you in the very post you replied to, "...but that isn't something you can do with the mind or the emotions. What you can do is train them with work and actual practise so that they switch on maybe once or twice a day"
You, yourself, said you practice switching on and off your emotions such that you hope to only experience them one or twice a day. I called you on that bull, so now you're off on the "but that's not what I said!" escape plan. Are you really that deluded? Your very own words are right in front of you, for you to see. You said what you said; you think emotions can, and should, be turned on and off, and that this is the method by which a person can overcome attachment to them. Own up to that belief and deal with it. If it no longer makes sense to you, move on, but don't pretend you never held that perspective.
mika
Post subject: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Discovering the True Will... Posted: Jul 05, 2009 - 11:58 PM
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Yes, not just the best way, the only way.
Every theory, feeling, idea, impression, conversation, etc about will is just so much symbolic mapping in fantasy land. The *only way* one's will can actually be personally "discovered" (so to speak), the only way one can shift into the perspective of a person who acts fully in accordance with her or his will, is by paying attention to reality.
And really, that's all that is required. Self-analysis of one's mind and emotions and behavior and all those fantasy distractions may be useful at times, but isn't necessary. Practicing simple self-acceptance can be an effective alternative.
mika
Post subject: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Discovering the True Will... Posted: Jul 06, 2009 - 02:46 AM
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No, the practical response is to recognize them, like all emotions, to be the fantasies that they are. The cause is irrelevant, as regardless of the particular cause, it is still an illusion. You could feel angry because of an attachment to self image, you could feel angry because some idiot driver crashed into your car, you could feel angry because that sandwich you ate for lunch is causing indegestion. It doesn't matter one bit what the cause of the anger is, the response is the same - to recognize it as a manufactured construct, an illusion masquerading as reality.
alrah
Post subject: Re: Discovering the True Will... Posted: Jul 06, 2009 - 04:56 AM
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mika wrote: ›
alrah wrote: › I'm saying that with practise the mental chatter that comes from attachment and causes mental and emotinal suffering can be overcome. No one is switching off the emotions.
Really? No one is switching off the emotions? You just wrote, and I even quoted you in the very post you replied to, "...but that isn't something you can do with the mind or the emotions. What you can do is train them with work and actual practise so that they switch on maybe once or twice a day"
I clearly said, if you go and read the whole paragraph again properly, that the TV switches on a hundred times a day to attachment cues. The TV in this metaphor is the mind and emotions that are moved by the false self image or by something we want.
In this case, *you* obvious *want* to find fault with what I'm saying, so your mind is skipping past what's right infront of your nose, and chattering. How do you feel when you do that? Would you be honest enough with yourself to say if your self image or your attachment to your pet theories were causing you emotional problems right now?
alrah
Post subject: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Discovering the True Will... Posted: Jul 06, 2009 - 06:34 AM
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mika wrote: ›
alrah wrote: › We certainly can. If someones self image is insulted they may feeling anything from anger (a bright red) to mere irritation which is a watery version of the primal emotion - a weakly felt anger, (like a reddish tinge). However - the response (as part of practise) to both of them is the same; the recognition that they are caused by an attachment to self image
No, the practical response is to recognize them, like all emotions, to be the fantasies that they are. The cause is irrelevant, as regardless of the particular cause, it is still an illusion. You could feel angry because of an attachment to self image, you could feel angry because some idiot driver crashed into your car, you could feel angry because that sandwich you ate for lunch is causing indegestion. It doesn't matter one bit what the cause of the anger is, the response is the same - to recognize it as a manufactured construct, an illusion masquerading as reality.
If you think all emotions are illusions then you think love is an illusion. I disagree with this. Love is the only emotion that can be felt without there being attachment of some sort present - therefore it is the natural equilibrium state when all attachments are let go of.
The cause of all the other emotions is not some outer situation, but is always attachment to the false self image or something that the ego thinks it wants, and the ego thinks it has a right to get what it wants. If you get angry about someone crashing into your car, you think you have a right to drive around without people crashing into you - as if the universe should perform according to your expectations and desires. Same thing with the sandwhich - 'why the hell should I feel indigestion?' you think, and feel anger because the universe or the sandwhich doesn't give a fuck about what you want, as *you* are the illusionary construct.
Where there is attachment there is illusion. Where there is no attachment there is no illusion. Love can be felt without attachment - it is not an illusion. Will is done without lust of result - it is not an illusion. The mind can think thoughts without attachment to the self image, or predicated upon what that false self image wants - and these thoughts are not illusions. But if you simply regard everything thought and feeling as illusions, you're deluding yourself because you have not learned to discriminate between reality and fantasy through non attachment.
Tiger
Post subject:Posted: Jul 06, 2009 - 02:10 PM
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LIBER TZADDI
"4. The end of sorrow is come; I will ravish you away into mine unutterable joy.
5. I will kiss you, and bring you to the bridal: I will spread a feast before you in the house of happiness.
6. I am not come to rebuke you, or to enslave you.
7. I bid you not turn from your voluptuous ways, from your idleness, from your follies.
8. But I bring you joy to your pleasure, peace to your languor, wisdom to your folly.
9. All that ye do is right, if so be that ye enjoy it.
10. I am come against sorrow, against weariness, against them that seek to enslave you.
11. I pour you lustral wine, that giveth you delight both at the sunset and the dawn.
12. Come with me, and I will give you all that is desirable upon the earth.
13. Because I give you that of which Earth and its joys are but as shadows.
14. They flee away, but my joy abideth even unto the end.
18. Only those who fear shall fail. Those who have bent their backs to the yoke of slavery until they can no longer stand upright; them will I despise.
21. Light, Life, Love; Force, Fantasy, Fire; these do I bring you: mine hands are full of these.
22. There is joy in the setting-out; there is joy in the journey; there is joy in the goal.
23. Only if ye are sorrowful, or weary, or angry, or discomforted; then ye may know that ye have lost the golden thread, the thread wherewith I guide you to the heart of the groves of Eleusis.
36. Many have arisen, being wise. They have said "Seek out the glittering Image in the place ever golden, and unite yourselves with It."
37. Many have arisen, being foolish. They have said, "Stoop down unto the darkly splendid world, and be wedded to that Blind Creature of the Slime."
38. I who am beyond Wisdom and Folly, arise and say unto you: achieve both weddings! Unite yourselves with both!
39. Beware, beware, I say, lest ye seek after the one and lose the other!
41. But since one is naturally attracted to the Angel, another to the Demon, let the first strengthen the lower link, the last attach more firmly to the higher.
42. Thus shall equilibrium become perfect. I will aid my disciples; as fast as they acquire this balanced power and joy so faster will I push them. "
--------------------
The Book of the Law
"58. I give unimaginable joys on earth: certainty, not faith, while in life, upon death; peace unutterable, rest, ecstasy; nor do I demand aught in sacrifice.
61. But to love me is better than all things: if under the night stars in the desert thou presently burnest mine incense before me, invoking me with a pure heart, and the Serpent flame therein, thou shalt come a little to lie in my bosom. For one kiss wilt thou then be willing to give all; but whoso gives one particle of dust shall lose all in that hour. Ye shall gather goods and store of women and spices; ye shall wear rich jewels; ye shall exceed the nations of the earth in spendour & pride; but always in the love of me, and so shall ye come to my joy. I charge you earnestly to come before me in a single robe, and covered with a rich headdress. I love you! I yearn to you! Pale or purple, veiled or voluptuous, I who am all pleasure and purple, and drunkenness of the innermost sense, desire you. Put on the wings, and arouse the coiled splendour within you: come unto me!
62. At all my meetings with you shall the priestess say -- and her eyes shall burn with desire as she stands bare and rejoicing in my secret temple -- To me! To me! calling forth the flame of the hearts of all in her love-chant.
63. Sing the rapturous love-song unto me! Burn to me perfumes! Wear to me jewels! Drink to me, for I love you! I love you!
64. I am the blue-lidded daughter of Sunset; I am the naked brilliance of the voluptuous night-sky.
65. To me! To me!
66. The Manifestation of Nuit is at an end. "
Camlion
Post subject: Re: Discovering the True Will... Posted: Jul 06, 2009 - 05:03 PM
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Location: Los Angeles, CA, USA
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alrah wrote: › In a recent conversation with Mika on a.m.
What is a.m. ?
alrah
Post subject: Re: Discovering the True Will... Posted: Jul 06, 2009 - 05:23 PM
Joined: Jan 21, 2009
Posts: 455
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Camlion wrote: ›
alrah wrote: › In a recent conversation with Mika on a.m.
What is a.m. ?
The unmoderated usenet group alt.magick... beware - there be monsters.
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