Post subject: Typhonian Order: 2 questions Posted: Dec 31, 2009 - 06:19 PM
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I have taken a great interest in the Typhonian Order from what I have read about it online. My first question is does anyone have any recommended readings/books concerning this order? Secondly, I have noticed that nowhere have I found how a person joins this order. Is it a simple word of mouth membership or how does one go about joining? Thanks!
kidneyhawk
Post subject: RE: Typhonian Order- 2 questions Posted: Dec 31, 2009 - 06:41 PM
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Quote: ›
does anyone have any recommended readings/books concerning this order?
Starfire Publishing recently rereleased Kenneth Grant's Outside The Circles Of Time, which is a fine place to begin exploring the major themes of the Order and Current.
The soon to be released first volume of the Trilogies "The Magical Revival" would be the best book to start with, because it is the FIRST volume. I can hardly wait for mine to arrive in the mail. In the meantime, I recommend reading all of the articles on this webpage concerning the Typhonian Current:
I also echo Kyle's statement about "Outside the Circles of Time". It also wouldn't hurt to purchase the most recent, and excellent, issue of "Starfire" and some of the older issues, if you can find them. The two soon to be published issues of "Starfire" should be purchased, as well. His poetry and fiction titles are very good too. If you could get your hands on "Against the Light" pick it up, it really is excellent! The most important book, IMHO, would be "At the Feet of the Guru" because it is really the Key to all of Grant's other works. I'd consider the works of Nema, Achad, Bertiaux, Chumbley, Spare, and Lovecraft as essential supplimentary reading material, as well. There's a wealth of relavent reading material out there to suppliment Grant's writings. So, besides the Trilogies, there is quite a bit of material listed here that you can learn a lot about The Typhonian Current from.
93 93/93
michaelclarke18
Post subject:Posted: Jan 01, 2010 - 12:14 PM
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Whilst I admire the work of Kenneth Grant very much, I would warn that his books aren't the clearest works available; at times, they are both confused and confusing. Nor are they particularly Thelemic either, though they contain occasional ingredients of Thelema.
That said, the Kenneth Grant books I do own, are amongst my most treasured items.
_________________ ''The serpent, SATAN, is not the enemy of Man, but He who made Gods of our race, knowing Good and Evil''
MichaelStaley
Post subject:Posted: Jan 01, 2010 - 02:55 PM
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michaelclarke18 wrote: › Whilst I admire the work of Kenneth Grant very much, I would warn that his books aren't the clearest works available; at times, they are both confused and confusing. Nor are they particularly Thelemic either, though they contain occasional ingredients of Thelema.
Whilst I know what you mean, Michael, in my opinion it's largely a matter of perseverence. The first couple of volumes in the Trilogies are fairly straightforward, but I'm happy to concede that the volumes thereafter call for more application.
Not that this applies just to Grant, of course. Spare's works such as The Book of Pleasure and The Focus of Life can be difficult to assimilate for the first few readings. The first book by Crowley which I read, in the late 1960s was Magick in Theory and Practice, and I found it very heavy going at first; it became clearer with subsequent readings.
There is of course another aspect to this, which is that a book might seem impenetrable to us, but several years later when our understanding has changed, the text is now not only more comprehensible, but sparks further insights as we read it.
In 1980, for instance, when Outside the Circles of Time was first published, I found the book impossible to understand beyond the opening chapters, and put it aside. Many years later I came to the book again, and found it fascinating, though it took a few more years before I came to really appreciate it.
There is the principle that when the aspirant is ready, the guru appears. This principle of readiness can be applied to books as well, since our understanding transforms and what was formerly a "closed book" to us becomes more comprehensible.
Best wishes,
Michael.
_________________ "It's all in the egg".
kidneyhawk
Post subject:Posted: Jan 01, 2010 - 04:42 PM
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Quote: ›
There is of course another aspect to this, which is that a book might seem impenetrable to us, but several years later when our understanding has changed, the text is now not only more comprehensible, but sparks further insights as we read it
This is exactly it. Having spent years with my various books by Mr. Grant, I have found them to be as a "guru on paper," always opening up new doorways of understanding and unforeseen application. Particular passages which struck me, at one time, as too fantastic or convoluted would later reappear in sharp focus, evoking the exilaration and even shock of shifting into a new "reality tunnel."
Momentarily turning aside from aspects of the work which may be open to question, I would be curious to hear from michaelclarke18 why the sometimes problematic prose of KG remains
Quote: ›
amongst my most treasured items
What do you like best about Grant's writing?
michaelclarke18
Post subject:Posted: Jan 01, 2010 - 06:02 PM
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Quote: › What do you like best about Grant's writing?
That they are - please excuse my slightly general terms - truly 'occult'.
One always gets the feeling, that one is dipping into something both dark and deep, which remains just out of the range of access; in that sense they are rather like a mystery. For me, very few authors offer that same kind of 'experience' writing.
Grant's books don't have the tidy and contained endings, all is left open and largely unresolved - so the mystery continues.
_________________ ''The serpent, SATAN, is not the enemy of Man, but He who made Gods of our race, knowing Good and Evil''
MichaelStaley
Post subject:Posted: Jan 02, 2010 - 11:50 AM
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michaelclarke18 wrote: ›
Quote: › What do you like best about Grant's writing?
That they are - please excuse my slightly general terms - truly 'occult'.
One always gets the feeling, that one is dipping into something both dark and deep, which remains just out of the range of access; in that sense they are rather like a mystery. For me, very few authors offer that same kind of 'experience' writing.
Grant's books don't have the tidy and contained endings, all is left open and largely unresolved - so the mystery continues.
That's well-put, and I agree with what you say. The value of a work lies in the echoes which it creates. In my opinion, great work abounds with loose ends which are followed up, and in this way work is continued across the generations and the centuries.
Loose ends and naughty knots - what more could we ask? Otherwise, it's money for old rope.
Best wishes,
Michael.
_________________ "It's all in the egg".
Satan'sAdvocaat
Post subject:Posted: Jan 02, 2010 - 12:19 PM
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Yes, I most certainly go along with very much of what is being said here.
As Michael S. points out, Michael C's last comment very much hits the vital point about Kenneth Grant's Work - which has informed and inspired me, stimulated and tantalised me (and occasionally driven me to distraction) for quite some time now! When I return to my cherished tomes, sometimes I find myself saying "No, I can't really go along with that Kenneth", then turn over the page and discover a new insight, a different slant on the apparently familiar territory. And you can't say that about far too many supposedly enlightened 'Occult' authors. Plenty of old rope dressed up with new ribbons out there.
Greetings to All for 2010 e.v.
93, 93/93.
Satan's Advocaat.
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The Children of Transgression are the Dragons of the Law.
alysa
Post subject:Posted: Jan 02, 2010 - 10:00 PM
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I think there are only a few 'occult writers' who are worth being called occult writers, most persons feel themselves called to write about occult things, while their only are writing some kind of inessential, boring New Age stuff, I think best occult writers are they that write from their own experiences, all the other ones seem to be very lucky that paper nowadays isn't that expensive anymore and see their writings published way too easely, the saddest thing about all this is that these writings cost money and take room.
rzk
Post subject:Posted: Jan 03, 2010 - 10:02 AM
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Alysa:
And gets most sold books..
_________________ it's all in the egg.
in nomine draconis!
alysa
Post subject:Posted: Jan 03, 2010 - 01:32 PM
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"And gets most sold books", yeah ofcourse.
Paolo_sammut
Post subject: Typhonian books Posted: Jan 03, 2010 - 06:29 PM
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All,
The Kenneth Grant / Starfire corpus is an excellent start to the Typhonian tradition; these include the 3 trilogies of course; but also Kenneth Grants Novellas and the Starfire journal itself. Speaking personally they are all deep; and you will find that they do repay repeated reading over time making their study the work of a lifetime.
However Grant's work has such a wide depth, that I am sure that many people will have different definitions as to what "Typhonian" means beyond its strict interpretation. For example; in its most literal form this includes the mystery of the God Typhon and these are (as we would expect) explored in depth, frequently from a Setian perspective. Grant looks at these closely in the early trilogies; for example the chapter "Dark Dynasties" in the Magical Revival, and "The Draconian Cult of Ancient Khem" in cults of the Shadow are good starts there.
These will lead you to books such as by Gerald Massey, (many of which are available for free (and legally) online) and others. I recommend the following books all of which I view as Typhonian.
The Book of Beginnings (2 vols) - Gerald Massey
The Natural Genesis (2 vols) - Gerald Massey
Ancient Egypt: Light of the World (2 vols) - Gerald Massey
The Light of Egypt (2 vols) - Thomas Burgoyne
The Lost Light - Alvin Kuhn
Monstrous Cults: A Study of the Primordial Gnosis - Stephen Sennitt
For example the above chapters in Grant and parts of Massey go into the mysteries of Queen (technically king) SobekNoferu who was arguably the first ruling female in Egypt and a devotee of Sobek. Since Sobek takes the Crocodile as a totem, and given that many of the interpretations of Typhonian refer to these as Orphidian or Draconian mysteries i am sure that you can see the relevance.
Speaking magically, Sobeknoferu seems to have been the historical personage behind Tera in Bram Stokers "Jewel of the Seven Stars" and Hammer horrors brilliant interpretation of this "Blood from the mummies tomb". I know as a fact that a new grimoire (Queen of Seven Stars) looking into these mysteries from a practical Typhonian perspective is in preparation and will be announced over the next year or two.
Of course a lot of the sources such as Massey developed out of the archaeology of the day and it is also worth looking into modern research to see where some of this has lead. This includes the work of modern writers such as Andrew Collins whose recent discoveries on the Giza plateau are suggestive of deeper mysteries in antiquity which are now resurfacing and to my mind at least belong within this tradition.
You could of course take the Typhonian research in other directions - for example following the strands of Lovecrafts Necronomicon gnosis; or exploring the Qlippoth from Liber 231 as discussed in Nightside of Eden. Kenneth Grant's books are very deep and explore the web of magic from so many directions the choice really is yours. I always enjoy looking at the bibliography of Grants books to explorer the books which he read and see how big this model of the universe really is.
Other books which I view as Typhonian include:
Typhonian Teratoma's - Mishlen Linden
The Black Goddess and the sixth Sense - Peter Redgrove (any of his books really)
Dark Doorway of the Beast - Gareth Hewitson may
The butterflies of Thantos - D A Chitty
Finally, a new book you might want to chase up is "Aleister Crowley and the Aeon of Horus" by Paul Weston. This grand tour, very reminiscent of the writings of Robert Anton Wilson look at many pertinent subjects including Lam, The UFO enigma and much more.
cheers Paolo
_________________ So shall he see things that ought not to be seen, sights that are abominable, and secrets that are unutterable
lashtal
Post subject: RE: Typhonian books Posted: Jan 03, 2010 - 07:23 PM
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Nice post, Paolo. I especially endorse your recommendation of Gerald Massey, whose influence on Grant - and, perhaps, on Crowley - is often overlooked.
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Paolo_sammut
Post subject: RE: Typhonian books Posted: Jan 03, 2010 - 07:35 PM
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Thank you.
I think Massey is crucial because from his archaeological/anthropological background he grounded many occult ideas into the history and culture of the civilisations which interest us with these topics. His interpretation is not dry and perhaps can be said to move us away from the academic giving us energy to breathe into practice. His books hold many treasures and are brilliant.
cheers Paolo
_________________ So shall he see things that ought not to be seen, sights that are abominable, and secrets that are unutterable
WarriorchiefZulu
Post subject: RE: Typhonian books Posted: Jan 04, 2010 - 05:32 AM
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WOW, wasn't expecting this much information- great stuff! Thanks a bunch to all who posted and those who may still.
Satan'sAdvocaat
Post subject:Posted: Jan 04, 2010 - 11:12 AM
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Care Paolo and Care Webmaster,
Have to say that I'm not that keen on Gerald Massey, despite, or because of his substantial influence on KG. Some of GM's stuff is just whimsical, Victorian fantasy.
But speaking of weird fiction - great that you mention Stephen Sennitt's 'Monstrous Cults', I possess a copy and have just had an email from him this morning; first for ages, now ain't that syn-with-a-bit-of-chronicity.
Not so much in Festat, but more in Restat,
The Sands of the Mauve Zone whisper through the Pharaoh's grave....
Satan's Advocaat.
the_spurious_simon_iff
Post subject:Posted: Jan 04, 2010 - 12:15 PM
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Even though Grant may have used elements of Massey's work the two are actually irreconcilably offset given the nature of their conclusions. It also doesn't matter in this light Grant following Massey's proposition that the mysteries were originally physiological rather than 'metaphysical'. For if taken to its end, there could be no place for Atlantis, Lemuria, cosmic consciousness, and similar extra-human items, forming the important position in Grant's cosmology as they do.
Solaris_671
Post subject:Posted: Jan 04, 2010 - 03:03 PM
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In my course of study I have found Mr. Kenneth Grant a breath of fresh air. His elucidation of Thelema as well as his personal theories are unparalleled in the area of Thelemic research. When I found the works of Grant it changed my life as well as my understanding of Thelema. I could not recommend his works more highly. They are the true gold of Thelemic literature. As has been stated above, begin with the first three volumes of the trilogies. After assimilating them move on to the others. Granted, it takes many years of study and one must return to them time and time again for each time you will find a new gem. Grant is truly an asset to Thelema.
93 93/93
Solaris 671
SSS
Post subject:Posted: Jan 05, 2010 - 09:13 PM
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I enquired about the Typhonian Order (T.O.T.O.) approximately one year ago. I recieved a letter back asking that I choose a single magical practice and keep a careful record of it for one year, then to send that journal to the order.
my question is, how similar is the "gradeworK" of the Typhonian Order to the A. A. ?
MichaelStaley
Post subject:Posted: Jan 06, 2010 - 08:38 AM
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SSS wrote: › I enquired about the Typhonian Order (T.O.T.O.) approximately one year ago. I recieved a letter back asking that I choose a single magical practice and keep a careful record of it for one year, then to send that journal to the order.
The term is nine months.
SSS wrote: › my question is, how similar is the "gradeworK" of the Typhonian Order to the A. A. ?
There is no similarity.
Best wishes,
Michael.
_________________ "It's all in the egg".
Alex_Bennett
Post subject:Posted: Jan 06, 2010 - 01:26 PM
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
I am curious as to what you mean by them not being Thelemic? I may not agree with Grant one hundred percent but would not arrogantly dismiss him as un-Thelemic. I don’t mean this as a criticism of you Michael Clarke directly but of a present culture within Thelema that I think misleads. If we are to be exact the only ‘true Thelemic’ literature are the Holy Books Of Thelema as in the Class A texts and nothing else. Not even some of Crowley’s opinions on the Holy texts are ‘Thelemic’ if we are to draw such lines. Certainly no other authors work at all and no present magickal order could therefore claim to be ‘Thelemic’.
I think we have to be very careful not to draw such distinctions, they can only backfire. Not just about Kenneth Grant’s work but any of the others who have written extensively on Thelema and Magick. An absolute orthodoxy after only 100 or so years of Thelema would make the extreme orthodoxy of Christianity look like a hippy free for all. That and of course Kenneth Grant has probably more of a right to call himself a Thelemite than any other living person and I say that as someone who has never been a member of his order nor even read many of his books for that matter.
Love is the law, love under will.
Alex
SSS
Post subject:Posted: Jan 07, 2010 - 03:43 AM
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MichaelStaley wrote: ›
SSS wrote: › I enquired about the Typhonian Order (T.O.T.O.) approximately one year ago. I recieved a letter back asking that I choose a single magical practice and keep a careful record of it for one year, then to send that journal to the order.
The term is nine months.
SSS wrote: › my question is, how similar is the "gradeworK" of the Typhonian Order to the A. A. ?
There is no similarity.
Best wishes,
Michael.
I checked the letter that is in my file, it does indeed say 9 months. I'll be getting back to you on that sometime. Do you care if I send you some private messages concerning that letter and my questions here on Lashtal?
kidneyhawk
Post subject:Posted: Jan 07, 2010 - 04:35 AM
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Quote: ›
I checked the letter that is in my file, it does indeed say 9 months
It always struck me that these "9 months" were an "incubation" period, a "coming to term."
Afterwards, "how the Child will grow up" is "for us to determine, growing up ourselves in the way of the Law of Thelema..."
93,
Kyle
Horemakhet
Post subject:Posted: Jan 07, 2010 - 07:32 AM
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. . I am very interested in what you Typhonians have been doing. I will have to check out the works of Grant, & others. I can concur with Michael that the A.'.A.'. & this order must differ in the 'Probationary' term. I have never felt that THELEMA is anything other than a perfectly philosophical community: Rabelais is the Master . . .
MichaelStaley
Post subject:Posted: Jan 07, 2010 - 08:56 AM
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Horemakhet wrote: › I have never felt that THELEMA is anything other than a perfectly philosophical community: Rabelais is the Master . . .
We all have our different perspectives and interests. I'm sure that Thelema as "a perfectly philosophical community" has advantages, but in my opinion the essence of Thelema is to be reached through mystical and magical experience.
Of course, this is classic chicken and egg territory. It might of course be that my drive for mystucal and magical experience colours my view of Thelema. It's all in the egg, as they say.
Best wishes,
Michael.
_________________ "It's all in the egg".
Horemakhet
Post subject:Posted: Jan 07, 2010 - 09:18 AM
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. . . The two are wholly compatible. It is all 'advantageous'. It is all 'Thelemic' in essence...
Drooler
Post subject:Posted: Jan 07, 2010 - 03:33 PM
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in my opnion, thelema is magic or sorcery. but it have general difference: this doctrine using nor each will, nor each desire. only channeled from supreme planes, nor everyday life, nor even mundane. this is timeless will. right?
Horemakhet
Post subject:Posted: Jan 07, 2010 - 04:45 PM
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Sure! Why not? Do it. Sorcery all the way. . .
zardoz
Post subject:Posted: Jan 07, 2010 - 05:43 PM
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