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nuhad418 |
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Post subject: Grant and Noise
 Posted: Feb 28, 2006 - 02:52 PM
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Joined: Oct 01, 2003
Posts: 72
Location: Ottawa, ON
Status: Offline
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93 all,
I’ve been reading Outer Gateways where Grant discusses (as he does in several of his books) the vibrational effect that rock music has on the astral. I view the astral as the realm of metaphor so this assumption doesn’t hold much sway with me. However, for those who use Grant’s method or share his general Thelemic view, do you agree with this? Seems to me there is a lack of compositions of a classical nature in Thelema. Everything seems to be industrial, avant-garde, or some shade of metal (not that that’s bad). If Grant is right and this type of music can have a detrimental effect why are so many Thelemites using it?
93 93/93 |
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 28, 2006 - 03:07 PM
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Joined: Jun 21, 2004
Posts: 416
Location: Folkestone.Kent.UK.
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Grant started useing sound after he heard the effect of Austin Spare's specially made radios. In later life Spare made radios - old fashioned valve sets obviously. He would tune several to different frequencys of white noise and listen to the effect.
This was an early version of the idea of listening to the static on un tuned tv stations to see if you can pick up voices and so on.
The bad sort of noise -usually called black noise- are those frequencys that can damage humans. For example the military of most countrys have tried to use frequencys so low that they rattle the skull and brain of the enemy. The FBI used something similiar at Waco to drive out the Branch Davidians. Grant believes that some rock music contains these frequencys.
Best Wishes Robert. |
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nuhad418 |
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 28, 2006 - 03:17 PM
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Joined: Oct 01, 2003
Posts: 72
Location: Ottawa, ON
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That radio comment is interesting Robert; thank you for that. Ok, so ELF and police uses (based on our biology) aside, is it the assumption that the astral and the "black noise" vibrate at different frequences that is at issue here?
If so, then should not all occultists listen to white noise and the occasional classical composer? What would we do without the angst of our more broodish brethren pushing us on!?  |
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AdLibertas |
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Post subject:
Posted: Apr 25, 2006 - 04:53 PM
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Joined: Apr 25, 2006
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I would have thought that the sensory inversion referred to in this and other books is a cognate formula, but apparently not. However, he is a little old man, and, honestly, what little old man is into metal? Apart from Lemmy?
Perhaps it just isn't conducive to meditation. |
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Seth156 |
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Post subject:
Posted: Apr 25, 2006 - 07:09 PM
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Joined: Mar 28, 2006
Posts: 65
Location: Toronto, Canada
Status: Offline
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[quote="AdLibertas"]I would have thought that the sensory inversion referred to in this and other books is a cognate formula, but apparently not. However, he is a little old man, and, honestly, what little old man is into metal? Apart from Lemmy?
Perhaps it just isnI'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and imagine your joking when you imply Grant's cautions surrounding heavy metal are based on his being "a little old man".
It's been sometime since I read Outer Gateways and the chapter concerning noise, but if memory serves
me Grant's basic point was that the frequencies/harmonies found in SOME types of heavy metal/ alternative rock operate on and create a reverberant reaction from Qlipothic regions. I think a quick meditaion on the lyrics and sounds found in say..early TOOL, would give one a very clear experiance of what Grant is talking about. This has been my own experiance regarding the matter and the idea idea of various types of sound causing effects in the consciousness and experiancial reality of an individual is not new. |
_________________
"I do not want to father a flock, to be the fetish of fools and fanatics, or the founder of a faith whose followers are content to echo my opinions. I want each man to cut his own way through the jungle." A.C.
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AdLibertas |
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Post subject:
Posted: Apr 26, 2006 - 01:17 PM
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Joined: Apr 25, 2006
Posts: 6
Status: Offline
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| [quote="Seth156"] AdLibertas wrote: › I would have thought that the sensory inversion referred to in this and other books is a cognate formula, but apparently not. However, he is a little old man, and, honestly, what little old man is into metal? Apart from Lemmy?
Perhaps it just isnI'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and imagine your joking when you imply Grant's cautions surrounding heavy metal are based on his being "a little old man".
It's been sometime since I read Outer Gateways and the chapter concerning noise, but if memory serves
me Grant's basic point was that the frequencies/harmonies found in SOME types of heavy metal/ alternative rock operate on and create a reverberant reaction from Qlipothic regions. I think a quick meditaion on the lyrics and sounds found in say..early TOOL, would give one a very clear experiance of what Grant is talking about. This has been my own experiance regarding the matter and the idea idea of various types of sound causing effects in the consciousness and experiancial reality of an individual is not new.
__________________
No, Seth156, I wasn't joking, though a sense of affectionate humour may be assumed.
I am sooo not going to post a smiley face.
Given Mr. Grant's homely approach to the Qliphothic one doubts whether "fear of the reverberations" is an issue at all. Virtually all of the artwork in the Typhonian Trilogies is simply a visual equivalent of the sort of music referred to and in many cases explicitly designed, by initiated magicians, to evoke those forces. Alright, he likes Count Basie, but would Count Basie voluntarily have a picture of an orgasmic were-spider on an album cover?
No, he wouldn't.
And, for that matter, one can find plenty of "classical" music which does much the same thing, but possibly less successfully.
Look, each to their own, and I think metal has a very limited and specific range of energies which it can access, few of which I can imagine a bloke of over seventy would find the time of day for. This is not intended as a criticism, it is an honest observation of generational attitudes. |
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runelogix |
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Post subject:
Posted: Apr 26, 2006 - 08:53 PM
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Joined: Jan 28, 2006
Posts: 168
Location: San Francisco
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Great post Robert.
I believe Theodore Ruess was a huge fan of Richard Wagners Ring Cycle as having Thelemic undertones. Nietzsche was also captivated by the Opera but for different reasons. Frater Achads analysis of that story deserves a lot of merit, as does Benjamin Rowes elaboration of Frater Achads work. Cant say that I'm a fan of most New Age and heavy metal music made out there, but I'm glad people express themselves this way. Subcultures express themselves universally through music and as long as Thoth's ape doesnt paraody mere heresies of christian rock, I'm all for it! If that's a musicians will to do, run with it, but that doesn't mean I'm going to buy such a CD.
Now as far as the occult implications are concerned I'm certain that there are whole classes of the "Others" that exist in the frequencys we call sound which parallel different dimensional realities. Schizophrenia is one common expression of this in humans if looked out outside from a "clinical" vantage point and more as a magician or shaman they are in contact with the Outer Gateways already. Although we can "hear" sound in waves of "linear" time there many different frequencys and mathematics that can be deduced with algorthims. It's my personal point of view that when "things" start "talking" to you are tuning into magickal consciousness ONLY if it is your will to hear such things. If it is happeneing outside the control of Will than you start going crazy real fast.
I think that as music and sound can change the experience of hallucinatory experiences (not that I'm advocating anything illegal) is proof that sound does alter perceptions, even if imperceptibly, while sober. What good that can do anyone without your HGA? Thats what the psychedelic 60's were about and as far as generations go they leave a lot to be inspired by and many more reassons not reenact  but thats just a personal opinion.
So in response to your post I agree with Grant on the point that you mentioned, but I havent read his book to know enough of what his writings on the subject infer. My experience with Grant's writings is to read between the lines as far as possible to get at what he's really trying to say rather than what he writes, much like how medieval Grimores hide their content with the words they choose. I don't think that Thelemic musicians are "typical" music makers any more than Thelemites are "typical" occultists. I think they take radically different approaches with their music to reflect that they are very different people, as any of the more well known bands illustrate.
I think too that your post presents a generational difference between Thelemites raised in the 80's and Thelemites from even the 60's to previous decades. I was just reading how Jack Parsons summoned Babalon in 1946 while listening to "Prokofief Violin Concerto No. 2" which I can't say if I've ever heard it, but I look forward to hearing it.
[edit: Frater Achad spelling typo] |
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ianrons |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 02, 2006 - 04:55 PM
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Joined: Jul 02, 2004
Posts: 680
Location: U.K.
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Just heard this on an old edition of Radio 4's News Quiz, a clipping from the BBC Music Magazine:
Classical music can make you more quick-witted.
Laboratory mice took 10 minutes to work their way through a miniature maze, then were divided into two groups: one was exposed to classical music for 10 hours a day, and the other to heavy metal. The former then made it through the maze in 90 seconds, while the hard rock mice took half an hour. The project was curtailed after the hard rock mice killed each other. |
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lashtal |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 02, 2006 - 05:19 PM
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Site Admin
Joined: Sep 30, 2003
Posts: 2387
Location: Oxford, UK
Status: Offline
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Thanks for mentioning that, ianrons, just as I'm preparing to see the awesome Killing Joke live in Oxford this evening! And, yes, I am too old to be doing this sort of thing!
Paul |
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spike418 |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 02, 2006 - 05:49 PM
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Joined: Feb 06, 2004
Posts: 93
Status: Offline
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Thelema All
An interesting thread. A quick couple of questions Ian.
Firstly, perhaps the mice exposed to classical music did not like it and were actually looking for the quickest route out, whilst the others were dragging their paws (?) as they wished to prolong their aural experience? Also what metal? Whilst I thoroughly enjoy early Sabbath and some Marilyn Manson, I just cannot abide say Judas Priest or the majority of stuff that my 15 year old niece assaults her ears with. Likewise there is a vast difference between Bruckner (is another Russian president dead?) and J S Bach. Perhaps the mice should be tried on African drums or Goa trance (both of which work for me). From a personal point I have frequently found a spontaneous inner humming of Gustav Holst Jupiter section of the Planet Suite when I am working with Jupiter. This does not happen with other planetary rites. I also recall in the early eighties trying to meditate whilst listening to Lou Reeds Metal Machine Music with headphones on, although nothing useful was achieved..........
I tend to view music as subjective in this way but would be interested to hear others on this subject.
Paul, I hope you enjoy Killing Joke, I had not realised they were still active.
ALWays
Spike |
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ianrons |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 02, 2006 - 06:12 PM
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Joined: Jul 02, 2004
Posts: 680
Location: U.K.
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93,
I'm sorry, but I don't know more than what was said in the quote -- though it was probably Mozart, if the other experiments to do with classical music and IQ are anything to go by. I just thought it was funny that the rockers killed each other 
Enjoy KJ, Paul -- and btw, if the world is about to end anytime soon, make sure Jaz lets us know in advance, and pass on my condolences about the Icelandic economy 
93 93/93
Ian |
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papanick |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 03, 2006 - 01:33 AM
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Joined: Mar 26, 2005
Posts: 272
Status: Offline
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93, all.
This probably dates me, but the soundtracks I often used for ceremonial were the first few minutes of "Tubular Bells" for banishing, and King Crimson's "Larks Tongues in Aspic" for invocation. The latter is a truly mad composition and the wall of noise at the end always left me feeling thoroughly cleansed and peaceful. All a matter of taste, and experience, I guess, I'm not that familiar with classical.
nick |
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Xethal |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 03, 2006 - 07:23 AM
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Joined: Jul 02, 2004
Posts: 10
Location: Pickering, North Yorkshire, UK
Status: Offline
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Greetings!
Quote: › Thanks for mentioning that, ianrons, just as I'm preparing to see the awesome Killing Joke live in Oxford this evening! And, yes, I am too old to be doing this sort of thing!
Did you hear the set they did on BBC Radio One about the time that the Pandemonium album came out? It was on Mark Radcliffe's show at ten at night and included Radcliffe asking Jaz if he could recommend a good book on Aleister Crowley, to which Jaz replied that he had never heard of him.
Part of the set had technical difficulties and half the UK got Killing Joke whereas the rest got part of Lenny Kravitz. I had my tape machine recording and ended up with Kranitz before going back to normal. I've still got the tape and will have to get around to getting it transferred.
Talking of Classical and Rock, did anybody else hear recently on Planet Rock after the nine 'o clock news one morning that they started playing Classic FM? Several minutes of classical music passed followed by Simon Bates and then, sadly, back to Nicky Horne and Status Quo. That really does say it all.
There was an interesting program on Radio 3 over the weekend about genius and madness with several mentions of classical composers who went over the edge:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/lebrechtlive/
Well worth a listen to in relation to this thread. |
_________________
<a>Duane Moore</a>. I'm a Typhonian Occultist from Pickering with a <a>blog</a>.
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lashtal |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 03, 2006 - 06:08 PM
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Site Admin
Joined: Sep 30, 2003
Posts: 2387
Location: Oxford, UK
Status: Offline
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Xethal,
Xethal wrote: › Did you hear the set they did on BBC Radio One about the time that the Pandemonium album came out? It was on Mark Radcliffe's show at ten at night and included Radcliffe asking Jaz if he could recommend a good book on Aleister Crowley, to which Jaz replied that he had never heard of him.
Haha! But that doesn't stop him quoting him.
Jaz has long been a student of Thelema and he most definitely "lives the life". His show last night, for example, was just a warm-up, performed at a small venue (maybe 500 in the audience). And yet he and the band turned a rock show into something more: a banishing, a celebration and an invocation.
Oh -- he's also very witty...
Paul |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 03, 2006 - 10:27 PM
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Joined: Jun 21, 2004
Posts: 416
Location: Folkestone.Kent.UK.
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Grants interest in music as a form or aid to occultism probably started when hr became friends with Austin Spare.
Spare could play the piano, flute, clarinet and church organ. He was interested towards the end of his life in the way that some instuments such as the clarinet can vibrate the skull of the player, of course this could have lead to a way of entering trance through music if the correct notes were played in the correct order.
Spare was a friend of the classical composer Gustav Holst, and at the time he knew Spare he produced works based on old English pagan themes and the Rig Veda. Exactly what input Spare had in the choice of texts for these works is unknown.
Another classical composer Spare knew was Sir Arnold Bax the brother of Clifford Bax the co-editor of the Golden Hind, Spare's art periodical and later a friend of Crowleys.
The knowledge that Spare obtained from these friendships made him aware of the potential of sound in a magical context.
Later he was to make and sell radios decorated with his art work. He learned how to built them from his long standing friend Frank Letchford who had been a radio operator and repairer in WW2.
To get the effect Spare was after you just need some white noise, which is just the hiss between stations on radios. If you set up four radios around yourself all set for white noise it creates sensory deprivation which together with a mantra produces trance pretty easily.
This way of useing white noise is very effective in treating psychotic patients as it blocks out all other noise.
When Grant writes about rock concerts he is probably thinking about the way very low notes-below 8HTZ- can shake the brain, cause sickness or even death, as proved by the armys use of sonic weapons to kill animals as large as cows at a range of up to half a mile.
Years ago the I.O.T. produced a tape which was supposed to allow the magician to utilize this technology, but it failed because home hi-fi's only have a frequency range of 8-20,000 htz. You need the large speakers used at rock concerts to get the low frequencies.
As for Count Basie he used a special kind of beat in his music. The right hand would play the melody but the left would play a rhythm based on Petro Voodoo drums. The beat is more in the gaps between the notes than what is actually played. There is a cheap cd containing all the music Grant mentions available from HMV Jazz.
Of course Grants interest in Basie and voodoo comes about from the "Obeah and the wanga, the work of the wand and the sword" mentioned in Liber Al.
Voodoo is the only kind of Obeah in use in the west and therefore the best for Grants purpose.
Right. Best Wishes Robert.
PS Spare got the speakers he needed from Marconi.He used the number 13 tram. I have a photograph of it. How much more sad and anorakish can you get?
I wish that tram was still running, I could shove Marylin bloody Manson under it! He's so obviously manufactored by his record company to do stuff that will upset mom and pop in the bloody bible belt .
Bye! |
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lashtal |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 03, 2006 - 10:36 PM
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Site Admin
Joined: Sep 30, 2003
Posts: 2387
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rabrazier wrote: › I wish that tram was still running, I could shove Marylin bloody Manson under it! He's so obviously manufactored by his record company to do stuff that will upset mom and pop in the bloody bible belt.
Reading between the lines, I'd say you're not a fan...
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Post subject:
Posted: May 04, 2006 - 12:42 AM
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Joined: Jun 21, 2004
Posts: 416
Location: Folkestone.Kent.UK.
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You read between the lines aright Paul.
Robert. |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 04, 2006 - 03:27 AM
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Marilyn Manson....the last "rock star" I could think of as being "manufactured" by the record companies. Whether you like him/his stuff, he of all people is not a puppet. As a matter of fact, if you look into his career, he seems to have had a thelemic/crowleyan interest for a LONG time. You are not going to see that from a casual look see though...
cheers |
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BlueKephra |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 04, 2006 - 08:01 AM
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Joined: Feb 13, 2005
Posts: 289
Location: the channel
Status: Offline
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rabrazier wrote: › To get the effect Spare was after you just need some white noise, which is just the hiss between stations on radios. If you set up four radios around yourself all set for white noise it creates sensory deprivation which together with a mantra produces trance pretty easily.
This way of useing white noise is very effective in treating psychotic patients as it blocks out all other noise.
Sorcerers Apprentice in Leeds used to sell tapes of white noise, pink noise , and basic rhythms in alpha, theta etc for use in ritual and trance states.Maybe they stil do, I don't know.
There is of course a whole genre of "noise" music that has been going on argueably as long as there has been music, although the artists using it for puroses other than bludgeoning the senses are probably countable on one hand. I have heard japanese noise king Merzbows gigs described as being "like being in the calm centre of a cyclone", I'm not a fan meself.
The artist currently known as Z'ev, who has been around in the experimental and industrial music scenes since the late 60's has been exploring trance states induced through sound and rhythm for some time, and his re-interpretation of quabalha can be downloaded here :
http://www.rhythmajik.com. He is currently working on a magnum opus on the subjects of trance and altered states of consciousness called Heart Beating/Ear Drumming.
I used to love Killing Joke, I despair of their current direction and sound. |
_________________
The colours are many, but the light is one.
www.flickr.com/photos/jpaul23/
www.flickr.com/groups/the_solar_lodge/
www.the-alembic.co.uk
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lashtal |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 04, 2006 - 08:16 AM
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Site Admin
Joined: Sep 30, 2003
Posts: 2387
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Azad |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 06, 2006 - 06:20 PM
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Joined: Feb 27, 2006
Posts: 4
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rabrazier wrote: › There is a cheap cd containing all the music Grant mentions available from HMV Jazz.
Bye!
Oh, what is the name of the cd?
Thanks. |
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