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tendriana |
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Post subject: Legal Question regarding Tobacco Use
 Posted: May 23, 2006 - 04:23 PM
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Joined: May 23, 2006
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Hi guys, I need a bit of advice/help here. I'm a practicing pagan for many years, but tend to follow a very eclectic path rather than a certain tradition. The thing is, I work at a state prison, and we have a bit of an issue here regarding tobacco use. My boss asked me to look into this because I already have some knowledge of what this inmate is talking about. Unfortunately, I don't know ENOUGH of Thelema to take care of this properly.
The issue is over tobacco use for religious ceremonies, and whether tobacco is REQUIRED in Thelema.
I think I know the answer to this one, but we are looking for an "expert" who can inform us about this. Basically, we need to be able to tell the inmate for sure that tobacco is not REQUIRED, although an individual can choose to incorporate tobacco into any ceremonies. I doubt this inmate would be very happy if it was just staff who informed him of this, therefore I'm looking for something written or such from someone who's maybe high in an order, or carries some authority in Thelema.
Any advice guys? |
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ianrons |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 23, 2006 - 05:01 PM
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Joined: Jul 02, 2004
Posts: 751
Location: U.K.
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93,
This is perhaps the strangest question we've had here for a while!
I don't quite understand, surely it's not for you to prove that tobacco isn't required, but for him to prove it is?
You're quite right, of course, there's no such mumbo-jumbo in Thelema about "requirements" like this – in fact, "the word of Sin is Restriction". To even suggest tobacco (or anything) is necessary for practicing Thelema (="Will", simply) is downright weird. It's like saying tobacco is fundamental to human existence. What did you bang him up for? smoking in a public place? 
I would also suggest that anyone who goes around saying stuff like "Thelema requires such-and-such" wouldn't last very long in any Thelemic group, or at least not very long in my company.
Of course, in the same way that tobacco isn't prescribed, neither is it proscribed. Sorry I don't have the "clout" you're looking for, but just FYI I think you're perfectly correct.
93 93/93
Ian
* FREE THE ALABAMA 3! * |
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tendriana |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 23, 2006 - 05:16 PM
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Joined: May 23, 2006
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ianrons wrote: › 93,
This is perhaps the strangest question we've had here for a while!
I don't quite understand, surely it's not for you to prove that tobacco isn't required, but for him to prove it is?
You're quite right, of course, there's no such mumbo-jumbo in Thelema about "requirements" like this – in fact, "the word of Sin is Restriction". To even suggest tobacco (or anything) is necessary for practicing Thelema (="Will", simply) is downright weird. It's like saying tobacco is fundamental to human existence. What did you bang him up for? smoking in a public place?
I would also suggest that anyone who goes around saying stuff like "Thelema requires such-and-such" wouldn't last very long in any Thelemic group, or at least not very long in my company.
Of course, in the same way that tobacco isn't prescribed, neither is it proscribed. Sorry I don't have the "clout" you're looking for, but just FYI I think you're perfectly correct.
93 93/93
Ian
* FREE THE ALABAMA 3! *
That's pretty much word for word what I told my boss. That it's a choice to use it, but if he's claiming that's it's NECESSARY, then he's full of it. Problem is, right now tobacco is banned in our State Prisons (and no, he's not in here for smoking in public, heehee, this is a max security, which means it's something akin to murder, mulitple armed robberies, etc.) So we could give it to him, if he claims he really truely NEEDS it for his religion....but of course then every other inmate here will claim to need it too, and basically the law is that it's technically banned. So we're stuck in a strange situation.
As for him not lasting long in a Thelemic group, that's not an issue - he's most likely in here for life, and although we have many pagan practioners here, I believe so far he's the only Thelema practitioner... 
Boy I like being correct. What I really need is someone who has some authority in Thelema (I know that is silly, but this is legal stuff, bear with me) who can maybe send me an email or letter, which would say something along the lines of Thelema not requiring tobacco. As long as we can show something to the court that says "Hey, NOTHING is necessary here, you make do with what you have!" Of course, someone writing such a letter would need to know that we'd use it to help in our case. I've already emailed some contacts from the main Thelema organization website... anyone have any other ideas?
Oh! ALso, has anyone heard of the "Wheel of Love" ceremony? That is specifically what he's claiming the tobacco is necessary for. |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 23, 2006 - 06:19 PM
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Joined: Mar 17, 2006
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| I'm certainly not an official authority on Thelema, but am a Thelemite. However, there are many official documents that could help with this. For instance, the Book of the Law proclaims that the only law for anyone is "Do what thou Wilt." I suppose if it's someone's will to use tobacco in a ceremony, then it is lawful. However, you might want to look into Liber OZ. It's the Thelemic declaration of the rights of humanity. In my experience, through my readings of some of the O.T.O. documents (I think I'm referencing the O.T.O. constitution, or perhaps Crowley's essay on Duty), someone who commits a crime such as murder that violates another's True Will magickally declares by default that his own rights are invalid. Thus, you could argue that the inmate has forfeited his rights. I know this is a difficult issue, and I'm not the best person to answer, but those might be some areas into which you might want to investigate. Crowley's writings are usually the main area to which Thelemites appeal regarding questions about the Law. |
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tendriana |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 23, 2006 - 06:25 PM
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Joined: May 23, 2006
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| Well, from another forum someone just gave me the email address for the Thelema Prison Ministries contact. Woohoo!!! I think this was exactly what I was looking for... thanks for all your help! And I'm definately going to tell my boss that the crimes this guy committed negated his rights. Thanks for the input. |
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OKontrair |
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Posted: May 23, 2006 - 07:44 PM
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Joined: Dec 18, 2004
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93
How mean.
It may well be true that Thelema imposes no general requirements on everybody but it cannot be the case that captured Thelemites have no requirements. Nor can it possibly be the case that this unfortunate fellow has no rights at all because he has negated them.
If other religionists are having their quirky antiquated preferences catered for then the position outlined here implies that Thelemites are to be treated worse than everybody else.
I hope he gets his smokes.
If this prisoner is allowed books let me know how by private message and I'll send him some.
OK |
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tendriana |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 23, 2006 - 10:41 PM
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| I didn't mean to imply that he really had no rights, I just thought that the previous post was an amusing way to look at the situation. As for Thelemites being treated worse than everybody else, this is definately not true. I'm very surprised actually at how well the prison does at making sure everyone's varying religions are allowed to be practiced. The smoking ban is for every inmate, regardless of religion, race, etc. I'm sure the inmate is allowed books, though I don't know exactly the rules regarding them (for instance, I know no hard-cover books are allowed). |
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nashimiron |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 24, 2006 - 12:40 PM
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Joined: Jul 14, 2005
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Location: Innsmouth
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tendriana wrote: › I know no hard-cover books are allowed.
I can just imagine how the Daily Mail would deal with this in the event of a prison riot: "Every one of the ten numbers of the deluxe edition of The Equinox was used to skull the warden into oblivion"...
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tendriana |
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Posted: May 24, 2006 - 10:11 PM
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Joined: May 23, 2006
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nashimiron wrote: › tendriana wrote: › I know no hard-cover books are allowed.
I can just imagine how the Daily Mail would deal with this in the event of a prison riot: "Every one of the ten numbers of the deluxe edition of The Equinox was used to skull the warden into oblivion"...
lol. |
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frater_anubis |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 24, 2006 - 10:50 PM
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Joined: Jan 19, 2006
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93 tendriana
You dont say what your Thelemite prisoner has been convicted for, or for how long. Might I suggest that you mix a little weed in the baccy and giv the guy an oz, it will do wonders for your kharmah .....and you will be repaid threefold.
If the guy really is a thelemite for religious reasons he will also need access to an esoteric library, broadband internet, a scarlet woman, good brandy, freebase crack and cakes of light. Are there any cockerels in your nick?
have a nice day
93 93/93
Johnny |
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erin93 |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 24, 2006 - 11:55 PM
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Joined: Nov 22, 2005
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Location: NYC
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93!
no tobacco in prison? what do they use for money now?
93 93/93 |
_________________
Soror YZBL, NYC. Thelemite to the STARS!
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tendriana |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 26, 2006 - 09:14 PM
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Joined: May 23, 2006
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| LOL now they have to use cookies as currency. How lovely, we should all do that! |
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Bill_T |
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Post subject: If it's policy...
Posted: May 27, 2006 - 03:41 AM
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Joined: Dec 22, 2005
Posts: 55
Location: Orlando, FL
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Dear tendriana,
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
tendriana wrote: › The smoking ban is for every inmate, regardless of religion, race, etc.
You wrote that the tobacco ban is for all inmates. If the ban includes all religions, I have to ask why you need a letter from someone to back up the policy?
You can certainly write to the OTO Prison Ministry. The OTO is NOT an all-encompassing Thelema religious authority. In many theological respects, this inmate has as much authority in defining his personal practice of Thelema as any other individual.
I suspect you are in the US and looking for documentation to avoid a Federal suit being brought against the State you are employed by. If this is the case, the lawyers representing the State will have a near impossible task proving anyone can tell anyone else how to practice Thelema beyond some very broad guidelines.
Love is the law, love under will.
Good Luck.
BT |
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ROTHGATE |
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Posted: May 29, 2006 - 08:41 PM
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Joined: Dec 11, 2004
Posts: 69
Location: CLEARWATER, FLORIDA.
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DUTY : C. YOUR DUTY TO MANKIND (exerpt)
"It is then the common duty to prevent crime by segregating the criminal, and by the threat of reprisals; also, to teach the criminal that his acts, being analyzed, are contrary to his own True Will. (This may often be accomplished b y taking from him the right which he has denied to others; as by outlawing the thief, so that he feels constant anxiety for the safety of his own possessions, removed from the ward of the State.) The rule is quite simple."
http://oto-usa.org/duty.html |
_________________
(SCRIBE "AKAD") ROTHGATE 527 V.II.VII.
1193*
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OKontrair |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 29, 2006 - 09:02 PM
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Joined: Dec 18, 2004
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Simple but hardly very effective. Plenty of locking up going on but no less crime. Criminality is not a fact of Nature it's a social construct. Activities suppressed in one time and place are more or less ubiquitous or even encouraged somewhen/where else. If goverments ensured that all citizens had an ample supply of cheap tobacco the world would be a much more peaceful place. If people died a bit younger then it would also solve the pensions crisis.
OK |
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S.Brady |
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Posted: May 30, 2006 - 12:59 AM
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Joined: May 23, 2006
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'If goverments ensured that all citizens had an ample supply of cheap tobacco the world would be a much more peaceful place.'
?????????????????????????????????????
Away from the above's socially aimed comment to a more personal slant, I used to smoke ample cigarettes. Now none. I know which state I find more peaceful.
S.Brady
??????????????????????? |
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Bill_T |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 31, 2006 - 12:31 PM
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Joined: Dec 22, 2005
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Location: Orlando, FL
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ROTHGATE wrote: › DUTY : C. YOUR DUTY TO MANKIND (exerpt)
"It is then the common duty to prevent crime by segregating the criminal, and by the threat of reprisals; also, to teach the criminal that his acts, being analyzed, are contrary to his own True Will. (This may often be accomplished b y taking from him the right which he has denied to others; as by outlawing the thief, so that he feels constant anxiety for the safety of his own possessions, removed from the ward of the State.) The rule is quite simple."
http://oto-usa.org/duty.html
It sounds like the person in question has been segregated in prison. I'm not sure what reprisals you have in mind.
I don't know which right the person in question denied others, so I can't determine if the State's actions are based on the concepts in Duty or not. Somehow I really doubt that the State aims to lead this person to his True Will. |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 31, 2006 - 04:29 PM
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| If anything, they want to restrict it and turn him into a nice little puppy that spends his working days trying to earn a rawhide bone. |
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ROTHGATE |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 01, 2006 - 12:42 PM
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Joined: Dec 11, 2004
Posts: 69
Location: CLEARWATER, FLORIDA.
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In terms of Legality. If an inmate has a "special need" that is not properly documented, it doesn't exist.
In terms of Duty. Internal access into a controlled facility. Select attention or granting undocumented authorization to any inmate may be considered a serious break in security protocol. I would suggest distancing yourself from this individual, he's playing head games. When in Doubt, Don't.
In terms of Government. War is far less merciful than our System of Justice. So unfortunate it seems that our Understanding must too be less merciful than our Wisdom. |
_________________
(SCRIBE "AKAD") ROTHGATE 527 V.II.VII.
1193*
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wolfmaiden |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 12, 2006 - 03:38 PM
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Joined: Jul 04, 2006
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Location: Toronto, Ontario
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93
Hi Everyone, new here, so just making my first post!
Looking back to when this regulation came in not so long ago, I remember that tobacco is allowed to Native Americans etc. on grounds of religion i.e. it is necessary for use in their ceremonies......thus, couldn't the prisoner claim its use under this basis? (he'd have a hard time proving it with Thelema though - probably stand a better chance with hash and opium!!)
93 93/93 |
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