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ErichZann333 |
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Post subject:
 Posted: May 14, 2008 - 12:24 PM
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Location: Rue d' Auseil
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Quote: ›
To give the historical answer, the supreme secret of the OTO is traced back to the Knights Templars and from there to the Order of the Assassins, the founder of which was in possession of it, and no doubt Sufi influence.
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Nataraj418 |
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Post subject: secret?
Posted: May 14, 2008 - 02:44 PM
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Joined: Dec 14, 2007
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h2h wrote: › ...the supreme secret of the OTO is traced back to the Knights Templars and from there to the Order of the Assassins, the founder of which was in possession of it, and no doubt Sufi influence.
Yes, this is the Official Party Line that describes the lineage of the "supreme secret" of the Templars (both in the Knights Templar version and the modern Oriental Templar phenomenon).
However, one can also find the exact same "secret" described for everyone's enlightenment in ancient Chinese scrolls, where it falls under the general category of "Taoist Sexual Magic."
Oh my God! - You mean it's an universal secret, not restricted to Knights, Gnostics, Saladin and Sufi Saracens?
Verily! This seems to be the case.
Please note that the "secret" is alluded to, hinted at, veiled in symbol and allegory, and generally described in many of Crowley's writings, especially (more than one chapter of) The Book of Lies, and Agape, et al. But (the sometimes hard to find) Emblems and Mode of Use is the one document that displays the whole deal in the plainest possible language.
"Emblems" is (supposed to be) restricted to members of the IX degree, they having made their own copy immediately after completing that august ceremony. But you know how it is - Some people who stumble upon a copy (without undergoing the ceremony - gasp!) like to nail it up in the marketplace, or even digitally nail it up in cyberspace (www), and then the contemporary Oriental Templars have to run around and claim "copyright violation" and force the offender(s) to hide their display.
After all, how can you have a (semi-)secret Order that is based almost exclusively on a "central secret" that is common knowledge? |
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Nataraj418
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Walterfive |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 14, 2008 - 04:13 PM
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Location: 13th Floor Elevator, Enron Hubbard Bldg. Houston, Texxas
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newneubergOuch wrote: › Isnt most stuff in libers Agape, natura and emblems anyway?
Perhaps, but what are they to the profane? "For without are dogs and sorcerers and whoremongers and murders and idolators and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie."
Most of us who have studied these mysteries for years, (some of us for decades) don't presume to stand "within the Sanctuary of the Gnosis" although some of us have been fortunate enough to discuss these matters with those who *do*, and in doing so come to a greater (if not perfect) understanding of the mysteries involved.
Anyone with a modicum of research can rattle off a list like you mentioned above. Very few can rightly claim the full knowing of them, and many so-called Thelemites are so hostile to Christianity that the prima facea meanings of these documents will be lost upon them, being objects of contempt, and beneath their consideration (showing that they're not even fit for the message of Liber Librae, let alone Liber Agape), not to mention the subtler meanings that might otherwise be found therein.
That is, presuming that the copies of the Libers listed above that you have access to are true, complete, and correct, and I gather from some unofficial statements I've heard by those in the Sanctuary that there's some debate about the accuracy and completeness of some of these alleged documents as previously published by Mssrs. King and/or Furnee. |
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Iskandar |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 14, 2008 - 07:31 PM
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Posts: 158
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| IMHO, the 'secret' of sexual (or any other) form of magick (or meditation) does not lie in information of 'how to' but in the ability to 'do' so. Crowley claims that it is not that religion may be reduced to sex, but that sex may be exalted to religion (or some other words to that effect). I am not being clear: what I am trying to say is that 'the secret of sex magick' does not consist of knowledge but of attitude. Can you approach sex as something divine? Can you recognize the sacred in the 'banality' of sexual acts, energies, and fluids? This is, in my opinion, only a different method (beside many others) of realizing that this world is the paradise, that samsara is nirvana. This realization implies, as Zen people often say, the skin, flesh, bone, and marrow. It is an attitude toward existence and a way of being-in-the-world that is not equivalent to the possession of a simple piece of information. Attitude is much more essential requirement. My five cents. |
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Walterfive |
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Post subject: Re: secret?
Posted: May 14, 2008 - 08:41 PM
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Posts: 165
Location: 13th Floor Elevator, Enron Hubbard Bldg. Houston, Texxas
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Nataraj418 wrote: › h2h wrote: › ...the supreme secret of the OTO is traced back to the Knights Templars and from there to the Order of the Assassins, the founder of which was in possession of it, and no doubt Sufi influence.
Yes, this is the Official Party Line that describes the lineage of the "supreme secret" of the Templars (both in the Knights Templar version and the modern Oriental Templar phenomenon).
What ridiculous posturing! There is no such "Official Party Line." This, and the rest of your post is merely more thinly veiled Caliphate bashing. 
And I object to it.
The *fact* of the matter is that the Order (or Caliphate, if you will) is now fully and well aware of its 19th Century predecessors in the matter of Sexual Magick, however it's only in the last two or three decades that this history has become known.
Crowley possibly, if indirectly refers to them himself in an available version of Liber Agape mentioning "the glories of Eulis, the stars upon the forheads of the Brothers of Hermetic Light." However this allusion is rather veiled: The book "Eulis!: The History Of Love" was published by Dr. P. B. Randolph in 1874, while the Hermetic Brotherhood of Light was a Georgia based Secret Society in the U.S. that descended from Dr. Randolph's Hermetic Brotherhood of Luxor, and used Dr. Randolph's theories and techniques.
Here's a quote from the Invisible Basilica of Sabazius website, written by Bishop T. Allen Greenfield-- "Dr. P. B. Randolph is either the author or the key Western transmitter of the core magical teaching of the Ordo Templi Orientis. Either way, the only thing remarkable at this point is why his name did not appear initially among the list of Saints read out in The Gnostic Mass. His elevation to the Order of the Lion by U.S. Grand Lodge of the OTO has done much to redress this omission. His contributions to the core teaching of the Western Magical Tradition are difficult to measure but very substantial--essential, in fact." Now, that's not exactly "ex-cathedra" from the Supreme and Holy King of North America, but it's a HEL of a lot closer to "Official Party Line" than anything *you* can probably dig up. 
M'kay? |
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barney |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 15, 2008 - 05:44 PM
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| The Wound of Amfortas 60 samekh XIV |
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SteveCranmer |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 16, 2008 - 12:35 PM
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barney wrote: › The Wound of Amfortas 60 samekh XIV
Interesting. I haven't heard this chapter ever suggested as the one Reuss allegedly pointed to, but it does make some sense.
A big question, then, is whether Reuss' essay "Parsifal and the Secret of the Graal Unveiled" was written before his purported encounter with Crowley, or after. Peter Koenig posted scans of a 1914 handwritten version, but was that the earliest?
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barney |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 16, 2008 - 05:58 PM
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| Assume the position of Tipareth. As the Sun, the truth will dawn on you. All sex magic is just foreplay without this. "Do what thou wilt" is made into lightning. All magic is candle magic if you do not reach beyond your grasp. |
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Camlion |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 16, 2008 - 07:18 PM
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Joined: Apr 23, 2004
Posts: 349
Location: Los Angeles, CA, USA
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93 Barney,
barney wrote: › I am enjoying the responses but I hope to drag a few more of you into the conversation.
Okay. It seems to me, than if anyone practices sex magick, that everyone who practices sex practices magick, although usually unknowingly. What do you think of this line of musing, Barney?
93 93/93
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barney |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 16, 2008 - 10:34 PM
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Joined: May 09, 2008
Posts: 9
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| Every act is an act of magick. Anyone here play golf? Pool? Every shot is magick, but when you hold your mouth right, the magick is refined. I find reading 333 as one work takes me through the angst, frustration, prejudice, lust, illumination that AC must have felt upon releasing the work. All the stupid human tricks that we do bring us closer to the Ultimate secret. You know, the one where you are the creator of all reality. Don't tell the Illuminatus that I told you. |
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Post subject: Re: secret?
Posted: May 16, 2008 - 11:25 PM
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Joined: Feb 23, 2008
Posts: 66
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Walterfive wrote: ›
What ridiculous posturing! There is no such "Official Party Line." This, and the rest of your post is merely more thinly veiled Caliphate bashing.
And I object to it.
Walterfive,
Nataraj418’s comments on the “Official Party Line” are, more or less, correct:
http://www.rahoorkhuit.net/ota/jgraeb/c ... alifa.html |
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zardoz |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 17, 2008 - 09:06 AM
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Joined: Jul 16, 2004
Posts: 138
Location: Grass Valley, CA USA
Status: Offline
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barney wrote: › Every act is an act of magick. Anyone here play golf? Pool? Every shot is magick, but when you hold your mouth right, the magick is refined. I find reading 333 as one work takes me through the angst, frustration, prejudice, lust, illumination that AC must have felt upon releasing the work. All the stupid human tricks that we do bring us closer to the Ultimate secret. You know, the one where you are the creator of all reality. Don't tell the Illuminatus that I told you.
Every act is not an act of magick. Every intentional act is an act of magick.
Seems to me that one of the biggest stupid human tricks is this notion of an Ultimate secret. |
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Nataraj418 |
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Post subject: secret
Posted: May 17, 2008 - 02:35 PM
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Joined: Dec 14, 2007
Posts: 49
Location: Taos
Status: Offline
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zardoz wrote: › Seems to me that one of the biggest stupid human tricks is this notion of an Ultimate secret.
Of course, you are correct.
But then there's that one true, ultimate secret: It's called: "Developing the ability to transcend the ego and dwell with the angels and the fairies." Well, maybe that's not its real title, but the key phrase is Transcend the Ego.
Only with this component in action will all of the lesser "secrets" be workable. |
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Nataraj418
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zardoz |
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Post subject: Re: secret
Posted: May 17, 2008 - 07:00 PM
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Joined: Jul 16, 2004
Posts: 138
Location: Grass Valley, CA USA
Status: Offline
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Nataraj418 wrote: ›
But then there's that one true, ultimate secret: It's called: "Developing the ability to transcend the ego and dwell with the angels and the fairies." Well, maybe that's not its real title, but the key phrase is Transcend the Ego.
Only with this component in action will all of the lesser "secrets" be workable.
Well said. In the BOL perhaps this component corresponds with NEMO? Some groups call this the 'waking state.' |
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Walterfive |
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Post subject: Re: secret?
Posted: May 20, 2008 - 03:00 PM
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Joined: Jun 08, 2005
Posts: 165
Location: 13th Floor Elevator, Enron Hubbard Bldg. Houston, Texxas
Status: Offline
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h2h wrote: › Walterfive wrote: ›
What ridiculous posturing! There is no such "Official Party Line." This, and the rest of your post is merely more thinly veiled Caliphate bashing.
And I object to it.
Walterfive,
Nataraj418’s comments on the “Official Party Line” are, more or less, correct:
http://www.rahoorkhuit.net/ota/jgraeb/c ... alifa.html
Exsqueeze me? Are you *seriously* suggesting that Jim Graeb's personal and highly critical opinions of Hymaneus Beta be taken as "official party line?" PUH-LEEZE, baby.
Don't try and bullshit us. You know perfectly well that in that WHOLE article you referred us to, there's only TWO sentences that are even vaugely on-topic? There they are:
"Now, legend has it that the Knights Templars meet up with a particular Shi'ite sect called the "Assassins" or as we liked to say when McMurty was Caliph,"the "hash hasheens" (See Crowley's "The Hashish Eater"). There is a connection between the Ismaili Gnostics and the Assassins under the leadership of Sal el Din (Saladin), but that takes us too far afield."
Now you *could* have just quoted them. But you had to refer us to a article full of whole lot of Graeb's personal problems, extraneous observations on Islam, and their alleged and make us dig through them instead of simply cutting to the chase.  That's extraneous and unneccesary. Stick to the point.
And the POINT IS that Natajara418's comments on "the Official Party Line" *are not* correct, and your supposition that
"...the supreme secret of the OTO is traced back to the Knights Templars and from there to the Order of the Assassins, the founder of which was in possession of it, and no doubt Sufi influence"
is at best legend, at worst, pure invention, and in all liklihood myth. Furthermore, the O.T.O. today (or the Caliphate, anyway) claims only a 'spiritual heirdom' from the Templars, not a direct and traceable lineage.
In closing, I repeat T. Bishop Greenfield's quote, because you haven't acknowledged it, and *certainly* haven't refuted it: "Dr. P. B. Randolph is either the author or the key Western transmitter of the core magical teaching of the Ordo Templi Orientis. Either way, the only thing remarkable at this point is why his name did not appear initially among the list of Saints read out in The Gnostic Mass. His elevation to the Order of the Lion by U.S. Grand Lodge of the OTO has done much to redress this omission. His contributions to the core teaching of the Western Magical Tradition are difficult to measure but very substantial--essential, in fact."
Have a nice day. |
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Camlion |
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Post subject: Re: secret
Posted: May 20, 2008 - 05:42 PM
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Posts: 349
Location: Los Angeles, CA, USA
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93 Zardoz and Nataraj418,
zardoz wrote: › Nataraj418 wrote: ›
But then there's that one true, ultimate secret: It's called: "Developing the ability to transcend the ego and dwell with the angels and the fairies." Well, maybe that's not its real title, but the key phrase is Transcend the Ego.
Only with this component in action will all of the lesser "secrets" be workable.
Well said. In the BOL perhaps this component corresponds with NEMO? Some groups call this the 'waking state.'
Very well put. There is a very curious minority of those professing "Thelema"* who are determined to cling to the ego at all costs, despite the fact that this ultimately contradicts the message of Thelema and Liber AL. This would be a serious impediment to true magical attainment, IMO.
It seems important to note that AC placed Book Four, part one, 'Mysticism' so as to precede part two, 'Magick - Elementary Theory.' The methods of attaining to 'transcendent experience' are clearly emphasized as essential to magical attainment.
Again, in Liber O, probably AC's most basic treatment on magical practice, he writes in the introduction: "Before entering upon any of these practices, the student should be in good health, and have attained a fair mastery of Asana, Pranayama and Dharana."
It seems clear to me that methods of transcending the common obsessive attachment to the ego are essential to magical attainment.
* I recall that while glancing at little Erwin's weird website I noticed certain descriptions of meditation results, presumably some lesser form of Samadhi such as Dhyana, where the retaining of an attachment to or presence of the ego in consciousness was emphasized, or some such nonsense that would render the entire process useless.
Anyway, yes, a very good point raised in connection with success with the 'secret' of sex magick.
93 93/93
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Post subject: Re: secret?
Posted: May 20, 2008 - 09:01 PM
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Joined: Feb 23, 2008
Posts: 66
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Walterfive wrote: › h2h wrote: › Walterfive wrote: ›
What ridiculous posturing! There is no such "Official Party Line." This, and the rest of your post is merely more thinly veiled Caliphate bashing.
And I object to it.
Walterfive,
Nataraj418’s comments on the “Official Party Line” are, more or less, correct:
http://www.rahoorkhuit.net/ota/jgraeb/c ... alifa.html
Exsqueeze me? Are you *seriously* suggesting that Jim Graeb's personal and highly critical opinions of Hymaneus Beta be taken as "official party line?" PUH-LEEZE, baby.
Don't try and bullshit us. You know perfectly well that in that WHOLE article you referred us to, there's only TWO sentences that are even vaugely on-topic? There they are:
"Now, legend has it that the Knights Templars meet up with a particular Shi'ite sect called the "Assassins" or as we liked to say when McMurty was Caliph,"the "hash hasheens" (See Crowley's "The Hashish Eater"). There is a connection between the Ismaili Gnostics and the Assassins under the leadership of Sal el Din (Saladin), but that takes us too far afield."
Now you *could* have just quoted them. But you had to refer us to a article full of whole lot of Graeb's personal problems, extraneous observations on Islam, and their alleged and make us dig through them instead of simply cutting to the chase. That's extraneous and unneccesary. Stick to the point.
And the POINT IS that Natajara418's comments on "the Official Party Line" *are not* correct, and your supposition that
"...the supreme secret of the OTO is traced back to the Knights Templars and from there to the Order of the Assassins, the founder of which was in possession of it, and no doubt Sufi influence"
is at best legend, at worst, pure invention, and in all liklihood myth. Furthermore, the O.T.O. today (or the Caliphate, anyway) claims only a 'spiritual heirdom' from the Templars, not a direct and traceable lineage.
In closing, I repeat T. Bishop Greenfield's quote, because you haven't acknowledged it, and *certainly* haven't refuted it: "Dr. P. B. Randolph is either the author or the key Western transmitter of the core magical teaching of the Ordo Templi Orientis. Either way, the only thing remarkable at this point is why his name did not appear initially among the list of Saints read out in The Gnostic Mass. His elevation to the Order of the Lion by U.S. Grand Lodge of the OTO has done much to redress this omission. His contributions to the core teaching of the Western Magical Tradition are difficult to measure but very substantial--essential, in fact."
Have a nice day.
Walterfive,
I never said Graeb’s comments on HB were the official party line, but you did note the relevant two sentences. Graeb’s “extraneous observations” on Islam were also quite fascinating – especially where he speaks about the Iman and its correspondence in the OTO (Speaking of, HB is an excellent OHO and discussion about the secret of the order should not be construed as criticism of him or the Caliphate.). Do I think the OTO is the direct successor to a secret that was transmitted from Templars and before that from Assassins in an unbroken lineage? No more than the list of saints in the Gnostic Mass.
I ignored the P.B. Randolph reference for a reason. Greenfield is entitled to his opinion, but it doesn't concern me.
Go back to AC’s anecdote on Reuss in the Book of Lies and try to figure out his realization of the importance of the OTO. In any case the incident strikes me as a characteristic AC “signature”. |
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zardoz |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 21, 2008 - 04:58 AM
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Joined: Jul 16, 2004
Posts: 138
Location: Grass Valley, CA USA
Status: Offline
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93 Camlion,
One magical aspect of ego identification gets illustrated in Ch. 27.
Can't really fully love with ego - see the next chapter 28 which seems a beautiful illustration of a waking state - egolessness, the exact opposite of the preceding chapter.
Love destroyeth self, uniting self with that which is
not-self, so that Love breedeth All and None in
One.
Quote: › In any case the incident strikes me as a characteristic AC “signature”.
I agree. It bears some similarities with the Cairo Working. Crowley seemingly encounters higher authorities in both instances that verify his work. |
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Camlion |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 21, 2008 - 08:12 PM
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Joined: Apr 23, 2004
Posts: 349
Location: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Status: Offline
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93 Zardoz
zardoz wrote: ›
One magical aspect of ego identification gets illustrated in Ch. 27.
Can't really fully love with ego - see the next chapter 28 which seems a beautiful illustration of a waking state - egolessness, the exact opposite of the preceding chapter.
Love destroyeth self, uniting self with that which is
not-self, so that Love breedeth All and None in
One.
For the sake of balanced perspective, I should note that I am certainly not 'anti-ego.' I value mine as much as I do my feet. Great for getting me around in many situations, just not suited for all circumstances. In some cases, one must defer to other means. Otherwise, one is definitely limited in one's scope and range. 
93 93/93
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