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I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself.
A small bird will drop frozen dead from a bough
Without ever having felt sorry for itself.
-- D H Lawrence
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Freeman |
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Post subject: Attaining Dhyana and Samadhi
 Posted: Apr 04, 2007 - 06:55 AM
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Joined: Jan 03, 2007
Posts: 8
Location: Southern California
Status: Offline
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After reading Mysticism and The Yoga Aphorisms of Patanjali, there appears to be a very clear-cut and scientific method of attaining Dhyana and Samadhi.
How often are these states reached? Is the annual meeting of the Subject/Object United Club packed?
I don't necessarily want a poll, but I would be interested in reading if members have reached these states. |
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tazadinath |
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Post subject:
Posted: Apr 04, 2007 - 11:02 AM
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Joined: May 07, 2006
Posts: 74
Location: Eugene, Oregon
Status: Offline
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In my practice of Zazen, I identify all 'external' and 'internal' processes and events as occurring within the 'clear mind', conditioned and contained by my clarity of consciousness.
"Kinhin" or walking meditation helps me arrive at a state of mild absorption with the least effort, and in a prolonged state of absorption 'flashes' begin to occur. Kind of like brief mild epileptic white-outs that heighten clarity and deepen absorption.
Subect/Object fall away as all external stimulus is sensed as subjective and the 'world' becomes your body. It feels like being tied to a lead corpse being compressed by tremendous force. Passing beyond this state I start to experience what I call the 'house of cards' universe, where I begin to sense every experience as depending or leaning on every other condition (dharma means prop), as I can only sense a self through the use of an ego. As the conditions supporting ego fall away all action is realized as futile including the conditions surronding 'love', but you will also realize that as 'it's the only game in town' you can either (A) pass into nirvana or (B) slowly re-construct your 'self' again. I took me 3 hours to get to this state and about 3 or 4 days to get 'right' or re-constructed again.
Anyway that's as far as I got.
Good Luck! |
_________________
A universe that has improbably manifested me once will improbably manifest me again.
Last edited by tazadinath on Apr 04, 2007 - 10:52 PM; edited 1 time in total
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Aum418 |
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Post subject:
Posted: Apr 04, 2007 - 05:10 PM
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Joined: Oct 01, 2006
Posts: 812
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93,
I recommend Raja Yoga by Swami Vivekananda - if I had to pick one book on Yoga it would be this. Vivekananda combines the practicality of Patanjali's system with the amazingly lucid insights of the Neo-Vedanta attitude combined with some Tantra. In other words, I can find almost nothing that contradicts the Thelemic view in here (except sometimes when he has a little sentence with some subjective opinion or something which contradicts 'There is no law beyond Do what thou wilt' but they are negligible).
Liber E is a practical document based upon the ideas of Ashtanga (Eight-limbed)/Raja Yoga, starting with Asana to Dharana. Dharana practices can carry you from Dharana to Dhyana to Samadhi.
I also find the practice of Anapanasati (Breath-awareness) to be very good in two ways: In meditation, say at teh beginning of a meditation, it makes the mind very tranquil which is why this practice is considered Samatha in Buddhist traditions. Secondly, during the day it allows for much more mindfulness (the breath is always with you and therefore becomes a constant reminder of awareness and such instead of letting automatic superego/id take control of actions). In this way you can cultivate a sort of awareness/mindfulness that remains throughout the day - a discipline of self-control that Thelemites would find most useful I believe (Crowley says "About 90 % of Thelema, at a guess, is nothing but self-discipline" and "What is true for every School is equally true for every individual... Success in life, on the basis of the Law of Thelema, implies severe self-discipline" in Magick Without Tears). If Success is your proof, it is obvious that hte Buddha was successful and one of the pracitces he encourages at many times is this practice of Anapanasati or Breath-awareness. Combining this with spouts of sitting meditation in the style of Raja yoga/Patanjali will make your mind much more aware, clear and powerful than you thought it could be.
The key, in my experience, is persistence and being without "lust of result." This indominatible Will-power and detachment from 'success' and 'fruits of action' and 'results' and 'powers' and 'trances' makes one 'progress' much further than one without firm resolution and one who is attached to getting some kind of specific 'result.'
I hope some of this convoluted message can help others atatin to clarity and one-pointedness of their Mind to aid in the accomplishment of their Wills.
65 & 210,
111-418
http://iao131.cjb.net |
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tazadinath |
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Post subject:
Posted: Apr 05, 2007 - 06:22 AM
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Joined: May 07, 2006
Posts: 74
Location: Eugene, Oregon
Status: Offline
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Aum418
Great material on your site!
Integrating the teachings of TBOTL with Therevada Buddhism is the great frontier.
I found lots of detailed material in wikipedia on:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhyana
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayatana
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_Nidanas
I found "The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna" one of the most useful books for understanding higher trance states.
"Zen Training" by Katsuki Sekida is by far the best Zen primer I've read.
"Doctrine Of The Buddha" by Grimm is the best philosophical outline of the 4 noble truths I've come across. |
_________________
A universe that has improbably manifested me once will improbably manifest me again.
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Aum418 |
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Post subject:
Posted: Apr 05, 2007 - 03:14 PM
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Joined: Oct 01, 2006
Posts: 812
Status: Offline
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tazadinath wrote: › Aum418
Great material on your site!
Integrating the teachings of TBOTL with Therevada Buddhism is the great frontier.
I found lots of detailed material in wikipedia on:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhyana
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayatana
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_Nidanas
I found "The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna" one of the most useful books for understanding higher trance states.
"Zen Training" by Katsuki Sekida is by far the best Zen primer I've read.
"Doctrine Of The Buddha" by Grimm is the best philosophical outline of the 4 noble truths I've come across.
I would recommend any spurtle that came out of Ramakrishna's mouth - he truly 'walked the walk.' Zen meditations I have found are useful but have a different 'goal' than Ashtanga yoga. There are certain meditations all about remaining mindful in the moment which are useful for that, and there are certain meditations which attempt to attain to higher/altered states of consciousness more (but the key, ironically, is to work without 'lust of result' for these).
Thank you for your flattery - some praise or criticism every now and then actually lets me know someone reads somethign I wrote! Great encouragement...
65 & 210,
111-418
http://iao131.cjb.net |
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tazadinath |
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Post subject:
Posted: Apr 06, 2007 - 05:25 AM
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Joined: May 07, 2006
Posts: 74
Location: Eugene, Oregon
Status: Offline
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aum418
I know EXACTLY what you're saying about Zen. Sekida actually discusses the trance states associated with Zen/Dhyana. I've had horrid experiences with spontaneous trance since I was 4, and of the thousands of books I've read on Occult/Eastern thought he was the only author who had a handle on it.
After having re-read 'Yoga for Yellow-bellies' i'm convinced that the Dhyana topic should be the biggest thread on this whole site.
"The Doctrine of the Buddha" by Grimm is a bad translation from the German but worth the trouble....very hard to get.
May the Moon of Yesod shine upon your meditations.
Cheers. |
_________________
A universe that has improbably manifested me once will improbably manifest me again.
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jtm |
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Post subject: Attaining Dhyana and Samadhi
Posted: Jun 10, 2007 - 10:44 PM
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Joined: Apr 21, 2007
Posts: 177
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Status: Offline
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Freeman wrote: ›
I don't necessarily want a poll, but I would be interested in reading if members have reached these states.
Since this is a rather straightforward, question, I'll step up and say that I believe I have. I'm not an initiate and cannot put my practice into any category or give it a name. I do yoga, meditation, pranayama, and am a 'tantric thinker'... meaning I find moments throughout the day in which to integrate things as distant from me as possible into what I'm doing. I have a long history with kabbala, magick, astrology, gnosis, etc. as study subjects, but I am not a ritualist.
In my 30's I found that I was attaining control over my orgasm 'reflexes', perhaps as a result of practicing bandha's, pranayama, end through a sheer enjoyment of sex and a desire that it last as long as possible. Most importantly perhaps is that I began to enjoy the electrification of my partner to a state of frenzy even more enjoyable than the physical pleasure. And so this made ejaculatory orgasm a potential bring down. I got 'higher and higher', and discovered 3 or 4 new types of multiple orgasm, but rarely ejaculated.
What happened was that after one particularly energetic week of hot showers and washing of my partner, long erotic massages for her, and sex, my partner turned her energy fully to me, as she was exhausted. I was able to focus deeply on full body relaxation along with the typical 'spreading' of orgasmic energy up my spine with each potential contraction.
My insights into this are that the keys to this achievement of higher states are
- relaxation
Deeper as arousal grows greater. The natural tendency is the opposite. But when relaxed, arousal continues to grow, indefinitely. Eventually it turns from 'hot' to 'cool', and things begin to change drastically.
- focus on the partner
This is for me, so I can't generalize. Results are impossible without the full involvement of a partner on all levels. This includes the personal/psychic level. This work cannot (IMHO) be done with a 'professional' or 'consort'.
- control
If you're young, start a program of kundalini yoga, including studying the locks. Learn to separate the 3 different muscle groups in your groin.
- prostate
Sorry, gents, but this is the secret key which explains the secrecy through the ages. The key to the kingdom is in your bum. Get over it, clean it, and explore. Further instruction is generally not necessary on this one. But there's plenty out there if you like. The prostate is the male equivalent of the Grafenberg spot, where the glans is the equivalent of the clitoris. Involvement of this technique during practice is not absolutely necessary, but neither is sex for that matter  The highest potential is to be reached though by including all potent ingredients. At the very least, having opened this gateway and 'experienced' the flow from the root is a help in studing self-control, and what happens when the channel opens up.
Since this experience our practice has focused on achieving this goal with each other predictably. We have only begun to think about full-duplex partner practice, however (i.e. yab-yum) as we find the basics of one-way technique to be enough of a challenge.
A final point on gender, and I'll put it bluntly for brevity :
For a woman, a 'regular' orgasm is analogous to a typical male ejaculatory (boring) orgasm. And most women don't even get there in our sick society. For a woman, a full-body, ejaculatory orgasm is like a full-body, ejaculatory orgasm for men. Most men never get there, a sorry few women. The ultimate gnostic experience is the same for both. Beyond ejaculation, for the energy can build continuously.
It's my firm understanding that this is the beginning of the path that leads to self-reincarnation through insemination, to ascension, and to many other 'legendary' possibilities. I'm working on it. When I master it, I'll visit you all in your dreams to confirm  |
_________________
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Honi soit qui mal y pense.
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sonofthestar |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 10, 2007 - 11:52 PM
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Joined: Jul 14, 2005
Posts: 355
Location: The United States of America
Status: Offline
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
Most of my yoga success, was achieved in my pre teens believe it or not.
I was not even practicing any form of yoga then, except a mantra type play where I would repeat a word over and over again just for the eventual strange effect of it’s culmination on my mind. I did not even know the word “mantra” back then. The word I remember was “book” most of the time. But also “too-too-tail” now and then.
All this would take place in my “toy room” whilst I was playing with my spoiled child accumulations. In the middle of my play, all of a sudden my body would begin to vibrate, the chakra blooms- accompanied to various color dances, before my mind’s eye, and outside of it, were most pronounced. I dare say I even levitated an inch and ½ off the floor once, and only once! I also experienced the circular energy pattern of the Chinese system using the tongue as the connection point, --also accompanied with vibrations. All the various states were achieved for about three years of my pre teen life, before I had opened one book on yoga. I also recollect I use to spin around in circles until I dropped, and this would often bring on such states as mentioned by the Yoga teachers.
Once I got interested in the ladies, it all went away during the teenage life; until the late teens when I engaged in Jana yoga up and into my mid twenties. But it was a totally different kind of experience. I much preferred it when it happened as it did when I had no idea what it was! being totally ignorant of Yoga.
I am going to start it all up again though, but not yet.
Love is the law, love under will. |
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sonofthestar |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 11, 2007 - 02:11 AM
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Joined: Jul 14, 2005
Posts: 355
Location: The United States of America
Status: Offline
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
Now we might wonder, how the experience of women would set back my progress, and I will present my “scientific” theory in a short and concise way.
When I really “noticed” women (in a sexual way) I was just embarking upon my teens. Yet the sexuality of it was always overshadowed by “falling in Love” to such a strong degree that it actually screwed up any chance for a sexual relationship to develop. We are talking “Awe Struck” in love here, starting the first day of grammar school. My whole entire grammar school days is right out of my favorite moving picture show “Melody”. If you have not seen this move, it is the must see move of all time! Best movie ever made.
And since the inevitable result of being in love in grammar school is in most cases termination (people move away and go to other schools) the results were a devastating blast and shock to my mental and spiritual progress. But it was not quite enough to stop the premature awakening of the states of mind and body that the various yoga texts describe. Also, those early and profound experiences were not built upon with other practices; I just experienced one after the other and enjoyed it. I was early on though, fully into the Occult life of ritual type workings, but these were of a very negative nature.
If only I had had the instruction early on that I know now! But we cannot regret.
And it is the regret of lost loves, all throughout my grammar school and high school years that injured my psyche so greatly that all such experiences of the spontaneous kind stopped, until the culmination of the Jana Yoga period.
So Jtm, I would have been much better off had I met a tantric initiatrix in my early grammar school years! and not been shot through and through by Cupid’s arrow that proved deadly to the heart they enflamed so, and thus attacking the mind with severe melancholy of the most dreadful kind.
But such forces that have worked against me, might have slowed me down, but will not stop me!
Love is the law, love under will. |
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Uni_Verse |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 11, 2007 - 05:11 AM
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Joined: Apr 16, 2007
Posts: 332
Status: Offline
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When I first read Book IV I thought...
"Wow, so I do this and eventually I will reach such and such a state"
In practice I have not found it so clear cut.
As for what happens to me regularly....
Note: percentages are possibility, not average occurance
95 percent of the time, my eyelids turn white and I feel a strong connection to everything.
It happens enough that eating meat is an uncomfortable experieince.
Part of the reason I am always sure to thank an animal for its sacrifice before consuming it.
Also, because I see it as a sacirifce of the animals form, in exchange for energy so it can "latch on" for enlightenment
10 percent of the time, my eyelids turn green and I feel a sense of purpose.
There is some grand puzzle to which I am a piece.
An important one, in the way that I can conciouslly cause things to change.
5 percent of the time, my eyelids turn red and I feel a sense of overwhelming power.
The universe is mine to bend and create.
I am the lord and ruler of all.
All other times, my eyelids remain black.
My sense of self is totally lost.
Point moving across infinite space.
That is just the results of my "meditation" as is defined by the layman : "absence of thought."
There are other exercises that I do, but expounding upon them can be saved for another time.
ADDENDUM:
When I look to "meditate" what I most often do is this :
Breathing in , the words "INNER PEACE" flow inside me
Breathign out, the words "NEGATIVITY" flow out
ADDENDUM to the ADDENDUM:
1 percent of the time I have "visions" (dream like states) |
_________________
You are missing the point
There is only one verse, sung in infinite ways.
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TreeDragon7 |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 11, 2007 - 06:13 AM
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Joined: Mar 27, 2005
Posts: 33
Status: Offline
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When i was young, my martial arts training let me get to meditative states early that I now envy. They topped far less treacherous mountains but had summits i experienced much at. These day I find it tougher and I dont know if i can attain a newer and greater enlightenment state.
I do know a couple of simple rules however.
You always need that momemetum of just starting the bloody work. Thats it. The spirit is supposed to do the rest eventually. It's nature is to climb . . .
JRA  |
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jtm |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 11, 2007 - 11:56 AM
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Joined: Apr 21, 2007
Posts: 177
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Status: Offline
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TD7 - very well put. We can all 'start now'.
Also, everyone's (seemingly) echoing of the easier-when-I-was-younger sentiment resonates with me as well, even to the point of not really knowing what I was doing. I now know that what I was doing when I was 17 was practicing for astral flight through visualization. I still hope to get (back) to the astral travel at some point.
Uni_Verse - your descriptions ring along with my experiences. I love you way you put it in terms of colors in your eyes. And your comment about meat I found particularly resonant. While I'm still not a vegetarian, any time I come out of an experience now (precious few times), my diet, daily habits, and mindset change drastically for days or weeks. I feel that I find myself beautiful, I usually go without coffee or other intoxicants for a few days afterward, generally out of a 'lack o' wanna'. Meat just seems heavy and overly taxing to the system, let alone the 'ethical' burdens. Again, not a vegetarian, but at those times it seems that eating a sentient being's muscles is a precious thing that should only be done when needed. I tend to exercise more and want to make love more.
But then this fades off, the coffee (et al) comes back into my life, and I 'go back to work'. It's a tricky balance. One day maybe my wife and I can retire and formally become ngakpas and practice all the time. |
_________________
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Honi soit qui mal y pense.
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Uni_Verse |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 11, 2007 - 02:41 PM
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Joined: Apr 16, 2007
Posts: 332
Status: Offline
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Many things are generally easier to learn when you are younger.
Your mind has yet to become set in a particular method of behavior.
Also, you become more entrenched in "consensual" reality the older you get.
Though I am not a vegetarian I do not eat much meat.
Especially not red meat (that seems to be the one that weighs me down the most).
Chicken I eat on a semi-regular basis.
JRA makes a very important point.
You cannot rush or expect anything. You must be totally free.
Unassuaged of purpose, free from the lust of result.
If you cannot attain that your progress will be slow if non-existant.
As far as climbing the tree goes... I follow that same flow.
Often things coming to me while I meditate that I feel a NEED to do. |
_________________
You are missing the point
There is only one verse, sung in infinite ways.
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 11, 2007 - 03:05 PM
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Joined: Jun 01, 2007
Posts: 56
Location: Rainy Maine
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TreeDragon7 wrote: › When i was young, my martial arts training let me get to meditative states early that I now envy.
Might it be the youthfulness, and not necessarily the training? My very first meditative experiences (I think I was around 11-13) put me in touch with a lucid dreamworld immediately. I could reconnect with this same "landscape" on subsequent practice with ease. Starting up again from scratch years later I could muster only basic symbols, static images. Now starting again two decades from my first experiences I find it difficult to visualize even the basic tattawas as anything more than conceptual blurs with fleeting moments of focus. |
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Uni_Verse |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 11, 2007 - 03:48 PM
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Joined: Apr 16, 2007
Posts: 332
Status: Offline
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As we grow older
Our visualaization skills
Go the way of imaginary friends
From disuse |
_________________
You are missing the point
There is only one verse, sung in infinite ways.
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anpi |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 11, 2007 - 04:03 PM
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Joined: May 26, 2007
Posts: 206
Location: Helsinki, Finland
Status: Offline
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I've got the Chinese system of kungfu, chi kung and zazen to work better for myself than hatha yoga, pranayama and dharana taught by Crowley. Part of it may be because I've had first hand teaching on some of the Chinese techniques instead of trying to learn it only from books, but I also think that the more passive or neutral attitude of zazen may work better for the nervous system I currently own than the more active Dharana meditation.
In any case, I don't think I've yet got Dhyana or Samadhi as defined by Crowley from just sober meditation. I've get lesser trance states, a feeling of great well-being and similar nice benefits though. |
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jtm |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 11, 2007 - 04:53 PM
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Joined: Apr 21, 2007
Posts: 177
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Status: Offline
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I find it very helpful to study the various descriptions, names, etc.. given to various levels of consciousness by different traditions. It's helped me piece together a conception of 'where I'm at', and 'where I've been'. Of course, no tradition 'has it right'... since this is all experiential.
Hinduism/yoga describe things one way, Buddhism another, Crowley another, John Lilly, Timothy Leary, etc... all are helpful.
One thing is for sure, once I started seeing results, it was unmistakeable. |
_________________
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Honi soit qui mal y pense.
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sonofthestar |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 11, 2007 - 07:13 PM
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Joined: Jul 14, 2005
Posts: 355
Location: The United States of America
Status: Offline
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
As far as diets are concerned, in their use for Yoga systems of various kinds, I’ll throw this in. I might have mentioned some of these things in a post long ago, but I am putting them out in connection to the topics touched upon in this thread.
A few years back, when I was practicing some Chinese methods of Yoga, I lived for three months on a diet of Taro roots, a wide verity of mushrooms, Chinese herb soups, and Ginseng roots;. that, and no thing but that, was the stuff of my diet. It seemed I had energy to burn! And it also seemed that it had a big part to play in the Yoga, though I cannot define it other than “rarefying” the organic composition of the body in some way.
Yes, it did indeed appear to be a very important and crucial aspect of the Yoga.
The states achieved by such Yoga, was at least for me, not quite like the Hindu systems at all. It was more like some never ending awakening that could not be marked by “illuminated states” of any particular kind. It was also building up great physical strength that my friends were quite amazed at.
It was no great feat to gear up to such a strict diet, as I had been a vegetarian for twenty years prior to embarking upon it.
One other strange thing is that just when I felt or could sense “the break thru” lo and behold, some woman would enter the picture! It is most definitely a test of some kind, and/or they find the sexual energies that result from the yoga irresistible. But this is a topic for another thread.
Love is the law, love under will. |
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GDPQT |
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Post subject: Enlightenment
Posted: Jun 13, 2007 - 11:26 PM
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Joined: Jun 13, 2007
Posts: 3
Status: Offline
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| It is simple to reach these states, just let go of everything, and hold on for the ride... also letting go of everything means your OTO, your thelema, its all just a tool to get you past the crap of you... somthing along those lines... make sure you get over the fact that thelema isnt anything, its just a collection of thoughts that mean nothing. |
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jtm |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 14, 2007 - 12:31 AM
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Joined: Apr 21, 2007
Posts: 177
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Status: Offline
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I agree with GDPQT. If everything is nothing, then that includes the teachings of Thelema and this website of course.
Not just being pedantic here. My experiences showed me this as the most important, stone cold, "obvious" truth... and most spiritual/mystical paths teach the same. Nibbana is nothingness. So to get there, or near there, you must let go. Letting go means being vulnerable to everything, to the point that nothing can knock you down.
Before being a happily married milquetoast suburbanite, I was a punk, a freak, a deviant. Went through all that. Wore a skirt, wore leather, hung with queens and bikers, did drugs... got it all out and realized it's all nothing. Not preaching this as a path, but it's how I came to the conclusion that there is nothing to be hung up about.
If you view parts of yourself, especially your 'desires', as things to be fearful about, ashamed of, guarded against, even in denial of, then you can never be free. A misunderstanding of Buddhism holds that 'all is suffering' so 'stop wanting things'. It's a start, but it's not quite it. If all is suffering, yet I can occasionally crack a smile, that makes me special. That makes me divine, somehow better than the whole rest of the project. If I can laugh at my own embarrassing, fearful paranoias about minutiae, I've conquered myself, and I'm a god. I've therefore conquered a god, in the realm of gods. I'm a supergod!
And yet, you must still be over yourself. After all, you're not alone. So it becomes humbling to have this experience.
Here is where you can now view your mind and body as a gift. Out of nothingness, you have a toy. And a very potent one at that. Treat it well for the time you have it, because it's the only toy you have, and 'after' that, you go back to nothing. Now you can concentrate on the one thing that is a link with nothingness, and thus samadhi, dyana, nibbana, satori, whatever - yourself. You are the temple.
Now go back to the traditions again in this mindset - the training, the techniques, the 'skillful means', magick, meditation, whatever. With this understanding, combined with practice, BAM. It will sneak up on you like a thief in the night. But this thief will find NOTHING, and you will laugh a cosmically HUGE laugh, the orgasm of attainment.
This happened to me on a Friday night, and I needed the day off Monday to continue to come to grips. Hard to go back to your 9-5 afterward.
No joshin'.
93 8 93 |
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jtm |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 14, 2007 - 12:42 AM
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And remember - AC himself intimated that it doesn't matter whether gods or spirits or this laptop exist. What matters is the programming that these tools achieve in your mind. The mind is the wild beast that must be tamed. Thus, Aiwass, Liber AL, Thelema, are all 'revealed truth', sure. But they are revealed by 'God' or the Secret Chiefs only as much as they are revealed by AC's personal metaprogramming.
It's my belief that the Aeon of Horus will find a race of humans capable of transcending their own metaprgramming tools. I've avoided ritual, memorization, and outright 'programmatic programming' all my life; and I've achieved things I'd never imagined, and which I'm still trying to contact people who share.
When I think of what's been accomplished 'with' these tools, even when they get in the way as I think they did with AC, I'm amazed. How much more amazing then are the possibilities of humans when they are able to work 'directly' on themselves without allegory and 'new languages' as discussed in the opening to Chapter III of Magick w/o Tears. I believe Horus will show us the functioning of language, and lay its 'magick' bare for us to understand, so that we may take up the next 'level' of magick.
so jah seh |
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Post subject: thing to remeber
Posted: Jun 14, 2007 - 04:25 AM
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| The thing here is one must realise that once the enlightened experience happens, there is an infinite amount more to experience... but it is all rubbish... there is no real point to it... i suggest to forget occultism, forget the oto, forget AC, forget thelema... crowley followed voices in his head, he never become and dismissed the voices... the voices must be dissmissed before you can go anywhere near what people call samadhi... and samadhi is only the beggining. Imagine a constant state of da ja vu |
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kidneyhawk |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 14, 2007 - 04:32 AM
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Quote: ›
Imagine a constant state of da ja vu
Have I read this post before?  |
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kidneyhawk |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 14, 2007 - 04:35 AM
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| Curious, though, GDPQT, if you suggest dropping occultism, AC, Thelema etc. what is your draw to participating on the forums of Lashtal.com??? (When such things are the basis of our sundry dialogues) |
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sonofthestar |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 14, 2007 - 10:44 AM
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
GDPQT
Thelema, the OTO, the occult, means “no thing”
This automatically invokes of necessity its opposite: ---Thelema, the OTO, the occult means “some-thing”. -- If it is no thing, then it is something, and vise versa.
You define that no-thing it is not, as “no thing important, not necessary etc” in the context of your post as it is your will to do.
I define that something it is, as “something important, and necessary etc” in the context of my post as it is my will to do.
Thus is it well within the realm of validity that it is “No Thing To You” as you have defined Nothing.
Thus making it well within the realm of validity that it is “Something To Me” as I have defined Something.
Love is the law, love under will. |
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jtm |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 14, 2007 - 11:54 AM
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Lest we wax pedantic :
I think all these things must be dropped, but in due time according to an individual's path. Example : I was attracted to the Buddhist path, i.e. formally becoming initiated, for a long time. Attracted to the OTO etc. as well. But when I had my first 'enlightenment' experience, one thing that came through (a lot came through!) was that all these 'schools', traditions, etc.... are like 'boot camps' for the brain. They are aimed at taking the proverbial 'anyone' from the average place in life (mentally, not socially, but that too) and tearing them down/reprogramming them so that they are ready for enlightenment. None is more 'correct' than the other.
Along the way, sometimes traditions get lost as even the leaders eventually are not 'experienced' in enlightenment. Such is the way of the Kali Yuga. In the modern age, there are spontaneous awakenings even, and many people are getting back onto the old paths, and more 'enlightened' ones surround us all the time.
So Thelema, OTO, etc... even Xtianity might be useful for many many people. I think if they're on the right path, they'll be able to go beyond all the languages and symbolism, to direct non-duality. After all, if experience is one-in-none, then all peripheral dressings are eventually meaningless.... unless you still reside in samsara. And even those who have glimpsed the light usually wind up back in samsara the next day.... and have to 'remember' that all is nothing, and yet stay devoted to the mortals they love.
This is a very interesting conversation. I get the feeling there actually may be a couple/few people on lashtal who have 'seen the light'. And the interaction between those people and the seekers of the light can be fruitful.
By all means, continue with your traditions, tools, etc.... if they bring you results. Use the results as the path. Personally, I'm not exactly a 'follower' of Thelema (or anything else for that matter!), but I find its tools and myths rich and useful, and its language very powerful in conversations such as these. |
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kidneyhawk |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 14, 2007 - 01:07 PM
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Son of the Star & jtm-
It seems that the "lens" just keeps turning and adjusting to new perspectives and once we think we're this close to getting at "The Light," once we see something we can only CALL "The Light," the lens keeps whirling and turning and moving our vision into an Infinitude...
The "boot camp" the "tools" may very well be guides and helps to getting at a state of freedom and self-reliance but it also seems that many who have gone this course have developed a real LOVE for those tools. Not an "attachment" in the restrictive sense but a connection to the worth of such things pertaining to manifesting understanding of "The Light," even as it continues to unveil.
This makes me think of Crowley, the POET. But here I'm not refering to the voluminous verse penned by the Beast. I'm thinking of the Magick, the System of Magick, the "boot camp course," having been run through, having had layers of it polished through experience, returned to as one returns to a truly brilliant poem or symphony or composition-something which has the potential to continue unfolding. This ties, perhaps, a bit into the Christianity and Thelema thread where we've discussed a bit how certain texts, scriptures or POEMS go far beyond one time head-space reading and take on a living quality.
If AC was merely "boot camp" (or even the "war") then once one reaches a certain point, it would be time to bid a fond farewell to the "world of things." But "hidden Kings" move about in this world (LOL-see Hermann Hesse-"Journey to the East") and may well be mistaken for "soldiers."
Just like Christianity, Thelema and Crowley may not be everyone's cup of tea but I strongly suspect that there are those who have "gone beyond" and yet speak and love the potential in its living poetry not only as a means of conveyance to those "below" but to themselves. Perhaps not even distinguishing between the labors of the "newbie" and what it is they themselves might "be."
Just some morning thoughts ere the day begins....
93,
Kyle |
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sonofthestar |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 14, 2007 - 03:47 PM
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
Well of course, in the aspect of the practice of Jana for example, where every facet of concept ional thought and its workings- as to what is working, what it is working with etc,----is up for study, and even the study of “the study of what is being studied” -----we are not going to be saying to ourselves during the whole practice “ I Thelemite, now contemplate such and such; and after having contemplated such and such, I Occultist and Thelemite now contemplate such and such in its relationship to the such and such just contemplated.etc. Naturally not.! I would think that during the whole process, every conceivable thought, and thought process in it’s singularity and in it’s relation to other singular modes of conception and ideation are dissected and put beneath the microscope, including the microscope itself as the progression unfolds. for as long as it can be sustained.
It is not easy at all to describe the actual experiencing of the practice when practiced—than explaining, “what is being practiced”.
As I recall, Dr. Who still makes use of that sonic screwdriver wherever the hell he is! in or out of his travels.
Though he was always loosing it! was he not?
Love is the law, love under will. |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 14, 2007 - 04:32 PM
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I agree much more with jtm than GDBPQ or whatever. You cant just 'drop' all those things - they are only useful to drop when you know you can drop them. Thelema, Buddhism, OTO, and even Christianity help people understand themselves - even though they dont need to label themselves as Thelemites or OTO members or whatever to learn from them. I would say its mor elikely that you are kidding yourself when you try to 'drop everything.' Slowly detach yourself from dependencies and attachments, and I suggest not saying OTO, Crowley, and Thelema are useless when posting on a LAShTAL board - it seems hypocritical and self defeating.
65 & 210,
111-418 |
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-~: The Journal of Thelemic Studies :~-
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jtm |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 14, 2007 - 05:38 PM
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Kidneyhawk, you raise a good point. Any sacred scripture or gnostic work or whatever which I at first thought beautiful, mysterious, alluring, etc... and later learned from and gained 'real insight' with/through.... those works don't become 'useless' or 'nothing'. They take on a whole new light. It becomes miraculous to reflect on how lucky one is that these works were created, that they made it to me, and that I'm "lucky" enough to have the comfort and time in my life to have understood and benefitted from them. They go from mysterious to positively miraculous.
For me, Liber AL is one of those books, and I'm not really even a 'real' Thelemite, or Crowleyite. The bible is another, becoming more magical for me the less I associate it with Xtianity (!)
For the Buddhists and Buddhist scholars out there, this is one way in which I envision the '3 jewels'. Buddha = inner buddha nature - 'true will', the will to become god and achieve peace. Sangha = those who have studied before me and left me something, and who study and work now in my time. Dharma = the teachings: wisdom and skillful means of the masters and teachers who went before and who are now. |
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