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Crowley's documentation of birth signs of ladies of the night.


David Dom Lemieux
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Note how in his Magical Diaries Crowley makes a scientific note of the birth signs of the  female-prostitutes whose services he purchased.   

Why?  Any specific magical reason as it were?

This topic was modified 2 months ago by David Dom Lemieux

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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christibrany
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Maybe to ensure specific combinations of zodiacal energies vs his Leo? To see the difference in effect of Workings and also compare to the current astrological status at the time ?


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @christibrany

Maybe to ensure specific combinations of zodiacal energies vs his Leo? To see the difference in effect of Workings and also compare to the current astrological status at the time ?

Yeah he must've thought that different Star signs bring different energies to a situation or to the party.   

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Shiva
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Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

Yeah he must've thought that different Star signs bring different energies to a situation or to the party. 

Well, they do!  The problem comes in in the interpretation. For example, AC said that basically he did not believe in astrology ... except for the fact that he could look at a person and tell their ascendant from their physiognomy (in this case, "facial characteristics").

Then we see that he sets up a chart, right away, for every new student. Then he writes a book on astrology.

So I guess he believed in it, after all.

So, yes, he probably went around cataloging people. I wonder if he cataloged them by Sun sign or by Ascendant?


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elitemachinery
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There are many reasons to collect astrological data but I think most people who are interested in astrology are just curious and like to know more about their friends or lovers or work mates etc.

I've collected astrological data on friends family co-workers for years...but most of it's not written down it's just in my head...i don\t usually push for exact times...just the day so i can get basic data such as sun moon venus mars placements etc.

As for sex...the venus sign placement and aspects will tell you a lot about a woman and their sexual desires.

for example:

venus in scorpio is generally very interested in sex and sometimes goes thru nymphomaniac type behaviors

venus in gemini likes many lovers....and is dazzled by information and gossip

venus in pisces falls in love with her "clients" and dreams she will one day be saved by a knight in shining armor

these are of course generalizations.

people who collect data and measure things are always looking for more information

generally i think its best to let reality teach us about astrology rather than astrology teach us about reality. the data helps us to gain a more deeper understanding of human nature and it's also provides a lot of content for conversations...everyone likes hearing a bit about themselves...Crowley probably liked to dazzle his friends and lovers with astrological insights...so he recorded the information


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @elitemachinery

generally i think its best to let reality teach us about astrology rather than astrology teach us about reality. the data helps us to gain a more deeper understanding of human nature and it's also provides a lot of content for conversations...everyone likes hearing a bit about themselves...Crowley probably liked to dazzle his friends and lovers with astrological insights...so he recorded the information

I know a lot of people and when I find out their Star Sign it usually amazes me how they fit the relevant  psychological profile e.g. a Gemini who has problems making decisions, an eccentric unconventional Aquarius, a tenacious, introverted family-orientated Piscean etc.   Scientists are afraid to put their names to papers that have collated the data.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Michael Staley
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Posted by: @shiva

I wonder if he cataloged them by Sun sign or by Ascendant?

I have the impression that he was more interested in the Ascendant. For instance, his diary for 10th December 1944, when he met Kenneth Grant for the first time after a few weeks of correspondence records:

"Grant arrived; managed to get a taxi after all. Got his rising sign right: Cancer."

 


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Shiva
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Posted by: @michael-staley

I have the impression that he was more interested in the Ascendant.

Me., too. It's obvious he placed a lot of emphasis on the Ascendant ("obvious," because that's what he wrote about) - due to the fact that he could see and internally calculate this.

Well, okay ... but then the Ascendant is the most superficial "description" of who/what we are, being associated with - the personality.  

Okay.


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Michael Staley
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Posted by: @shiva

Well, okay ... but then the Ascendant is the most superficial "description" of who/what we are, being associated with - the personality

Yes, but he did draw up the horoscopes in order to assess the underlying planetary configurations. I think he just developed an instinct for "sniffing out" the Ascendant, but he set it in the wider context of the horoscope.


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elitemachinery
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Posted by: @michael-staley

"Grant arrived; managed to get a taxi after all. Got his rising sign right: Cancer."

Do you happen to know Kenneth Grant's exact birth time? As a Gemini, Cancer rising should have him being born in the hours just after sunrise.


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Michael Staley
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Posted by: @elitemachinery

Do you happen to know Kenneth Grant's exact birth time? As a Gemini, Cancer rising should have him being born in the hours just after sunrise.

No, I don't. There is somewhere a horoscope that Crowley drew up. I had a notion that it was in Crowley's 1944 diary, but it's not there.


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @michael-staley
Posted by: @shiva

I wonder if he cataloged them by Sun sign or by Ascendant?

I have the impression that he was more interested in the Ascendant. For instance, his diary for 10th December 1944, when he met Kenneth Grant for the first time after a few weeks of correspondence records:

"Grant arrived; managed to get a taxi after all. Got his rising sign right: Cancer."

 

You have 12 segments on a dartboard and you have a machine that fires darts randomly.  That's a 1 in 12 probability.   

How do Star Signs work?  Solar flares that change every month and radiate into a girl's womb changing the neurology of the zygot on a genetic level and therefore predetermining a psychological Zodiacal type?  

 

Are the movements of each planet controlling the events and people who come into our existence?

 

How?

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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ignant666
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Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

a 1 in 12 probability.   

In other words, the odds are strongly against your random dart machine hitting the correct ascendant.

Yes, there is no very obvious way that astrology can be true. And yet i display all the classic signifiers of "being an Aquarius".


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @ignant666
Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

a 1 in 12 probability.   

In other words, the odds are strongly against your random dart machine hitting the correct ascendant.

Yes, there is no very obvious way that astrology can be true. And yet i display all the classic signifiers of "being an Aquarius".

So does any punk.

Imagine that.

Are all punks Aquarian?    

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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ignant666
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Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

Are all punks Aquarian?   

Fairly obviously, no. Other than in the Aeonic sense, of course: it's the Age of Aquarius, maaan.

Decided to check a few birthdates: Although John Lydon, Henry Rollins, and HR of the Bad Brains are/were all Aquarius, Johnny Thunders, Iggy Pop, Poly Styrene, and Joe Strummer isn't/weren't.


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @ignant666

Yes, there is no very obvious way that astrology can be true. And yet i display all the classic signifiers of "being an Aquarius".

Posted by: @michael-staley
No, I don't. There is somewhere a horoscope that Crowley drew up. I had a notion that it was in Crowley's 1944 diary, but it's not there.
Posted by: @elitemachinery

There are many reasons to collect astrological data but I think most people who are interested in astrology are just curious and like to know more about their friends or lovers or work mates etc.

So Crowley noting down the Star signs of the ladies of the night, why?  Was it a matter of a guy feeling low status and feeling bad about not being able to get any 'decent pussy' so he gets some cash together and plays Master to some working class girl for half an hour or so?   Only losers masturbate, right?   That's what Crowley seemed to think  (see his scornful letter to Regardie).  Did his Victorian-conditioned self really think that paying for sex was all a bit sordid and shameful therefore he had to somehow justify to himself that it was a 'magical working'  complete with Zodiacal data?   Similarly he pretended to be an aristocrat sometimes with complete strangers.  Oh but that was not downwardly mobile loser-feelings forcing him to falsely 'big himself up' like that, no it was done as part of his 'magical training' Jugorum personality-switch or for 'reasons of psychological observation' wasn't it?   

 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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ignant666
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You do understand that during much of AC's life "decent pussy" was to be had only by marrying the woman in question, right?

AC had sex with lots of prostitutes, artists, dancers, and other not-"decent", and semi-"decent" gals (and men), because they would "put out".

This discussion of "pussy" as a commodity reminds me of a certain footnote in Das Kapital which does the same, and the late Redd Foxx's "Women's liberation? I don't know what these women complainin' about. They got half the money, and all the pussy."

AC did not think that paying for sex was sordid and shameful, he thought that sex was sordid and shameful. And if you look at his sex life in detail, even by today's libertine standards, this is an understandable conclusion. Since i'm on a quotation binge: Woody Allen's "Is sex dirty? Only if you do it right."


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Michael Staley
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Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

Was it a matter of a guy feeling low status and feeling bad about not being able to get any 'decent pussy' so he gets some cash together and plays Master to some working class girl for half an hour or so? . . .  Did his Victorian-conditioned self really think that paying for sex was all a bit sordid and shameful therefore he had to somehow justify to himself that it was a 'magical working'  complete with Zodiacal data? 

No, he regarded them as Magical Workings, experiments in sex magick, as designated by the term e.g. "Opus XXIII" etc. OK, it's your cynical view that it was merely a cover or an excuse for what you consider sordid sex, but it's not mine.


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Shiva
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Posted by: @ignant666

In other words, the odds are strongly against your random dart machine hitting the correct ascendant.

In the case of the Ascendant, the planetary dart machine does not function. The Asc is merely determined by the degree of a sign on the horizon. Bring in the "fixed star dart machine).

However, there is no "dart marchine," and it certainly is not random. Instead, there is a really big machine called the cosmos. It whirls and turns on a regular basis. The random part is when the mother/child complex decides to expel the infant.

I'd say forget the astrology and just throw a Yi at the moment the kid draws his/her first breath.

Posted by: @michael-staley

OK, it's your cynical view that it was merely a cover or an excuse for what you consider sordid sex

Well, it would really depend on his motivation (intent) and the exact dharana (dhyana?) in his mind at the moment of destruction. This, of course, would be very hard to determine.


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @michael-staley
Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

Was it a matter of a guy feeling low status and feeling bad about not being able to get any 'decent pussy' so he gets some cash together and plays Master to some working class girl for half an hour or so? . . .  Did his Victorian-conditioned self really think that paying for sex was all a bit sordid and shameful therefore he had to somehow justify to himself that it was a 'magical working'  complete with Zodiacal data? 

No, he regarded them as Magical Workings, experiments in sex magick, as designated by the term e.g. "Opus XXIII" etc. OK, it's your cynical view that it was merely a cover or an excuse for what you consider sordid sex, but it's not mine.

You don't know it and I don't know it but if you've already closed your mind to one option then debate over...for you anyway and probably for Katrice who gave 'a like' to your post. I wouldn't say that you were a blinkered AC -fanboy from your overall posting-history but on this one you're all for the pure magical motive of Zodiacal data -gathering angle. 

 

Actually we had a similar debate if you check out Ignant's OP /first several posts on the 'Does sex magic work?' thread. 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Michael Staley
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Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

I wouldn't say that you were a blinkered AC -fanboy from your overall posting-history

That's perceptive of you. I'm not. I've studied Crowley's works since the late 1960s, and that is my considered opinion on this matter. It doesn't bother me that you think otherwise; likewise, I wouldn't  expect you to throw a hissy-fit because I don't agree with you.

Interesting, isn't it, that anyone who doesn't agree with your opinion is thereby cast as a Crowley fan-boy (or fan-girl)?


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katrice
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Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

for Katrice who gave 'a like' to your post. 

 

I merely gave a like for the first half of the response, because I do feel that Crowley considered these in some sense magickal operations, especially given how much he integrated his life in to his practice and vice versa. The partner's sign would not matter otherwise.  Even if it was just a ritualized excuse for indulgence, similar to a bdsm scene, or if he just came up with an actual magickal intent purely as an excuse to get laid, he could still consider it an important part of the scene he was trying to set.  

 

  


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Shiva
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Posted by: @shiva

Well, it would really depend on his motivation (intent) and the exact dharana (dhyana?) in his mind at the moment of destruction. This, of course, would be very hard to determine.

I just re-read this little gem. Something is missing!  Who is the subject? Not M.S., who I was quoting. Not Dom, who the quote was directed to. But (yes) AC, whose intent and focus we cannot gnosis. 

Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

... who gave 'a like' to your post.

I must have missed the Astral/Borg addition of "Like." I have obviously not been paying attention to the fine print. I see there are no "dislike" options, so hate crimes cannot be exercised. There is just the ultimate "Report" button.

Then, sharper pencils than myself, such as yourself, step in and reveal that "Like" can be publicized. I wonder if the likes add up. I wonder if sex, power, or prestige may be gleaned from a massive Like Pile - in concert with the concept of Democracy.

Posted by: @michael-staley

... that is my considered opinion on this matter.

My own considerable? opinion extract says: AC, like all of us, held a magickal paradigm in focus - much of the time. This was obvious when he wrote, regardless of which libation he selected. With sexual fusion at the heart of his doctrine, it would be hard to imagine him not approaching any union with less than a magical outlook.

Like all of us, he trudged around in a human vehicle. Such instruments are subject to revolt, base instincts, lust, and the seven degrees of grumpiness. Sometimes we rejoice in exposing the difficult discrepancies of AC - who never held himself out as a god, although he admitted to Sainthood (see Autohagiography).

I think we all have our discrepancies. Thank Goodness, or The Law of Karma, that we don't each have our own individual threatds titled, Frater/Soror/Neuter X and his Discrepancies.

Posted by: @katrice

Crowley considered these in some sense magickal operations

That's the spirit. AC his-self said we are lucky if our magickal engines achieve 50% of their capacity.

 


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @michael-staley

Interesting, isn't it, that anyone who doesn't agree with your opinion is thereby cast as a Crowley fan-boy (or fan-girl)?

Well if you want to see "hissy fits" when in fact they are not there then be my guest. 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Michael Staley
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Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

Well if you want to see "hissy fits" when in fact they are not there then be my guest. 

I'm sorry for my somewhat combative tone. You and I have a history of this, and it will probably recur. I don't share your view that Crowley's sex-magick with prostitutes was simply an excuse for "sordid sex", that's all. No, I don't have an open mind on the matter, if by open mind you mean that I should bear in mind the possibility that you are correct. There's a cliché (perhaps several) to the effect that you can't bake a cake with the over-door open.


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Shiva
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Oh, Lordie Highup and the Ten Dimensions!  I wonder if different folks have different opinions of what was going on in Aleister's conscious and sub-conscious and super-conscious mind(s) - based on what they themselves would do or have done?


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katrice
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Posted by: @shiva

I must have missed the Astral/Borg addition of "Like." I have obviously not been paying attention to the fine print 

As I'd said, I liked Mr Staley's response because I agreed with his central point, not really for his more direct words to Dom, who I actually do have respect for, though I fear it may not look like that sometimes.    

 

Then, sharper pencils than myself, such as yourself, step in and reveal that "Like" can be publicized. I wonder if the likes add up. I wonder if sex, power, or prestige may be gleaned from a massive Like Pile - in concert with the concept of Democracy.

I think that's how Facebook and Instagram work. 😉 

 

My own considerable? opinion extract says: AC, like all of us, held a magickal paradigm in focus - much of the time. This was obvious when he wrote, regardless of which libation he selected. With sexual fusion at the heart of his doctrine, it would be hard to imagine him not approaching any union with less than a magical outlook.

That's been a large part of my own work, making as much of my life as I can in to fuel for my magick. Things like eating, drinking, bathing, cleaning, and, yes, f*cking. And trying to see what any situations I find myself in can teach me. 

 

\I think we all have our discrepancies. Thank Goodness, or The Law of Karma, that we don't each have our own individual threatds titled, Frater/Soror/Neuter X and his Discrepancies.

I'm surprised I don't have nightmares about "Soror Katrice and her Discrepancies". 

 


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