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Is the Sidereal Zodiac, compatible with 'Thelemic time' or 'Thelemic calendar'?  

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wellreadwellbred
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15/10/2017 12:01 am  

"'Thelemic time' [...] has been 'reset' to correspond to the 'Equinox of the Gods' (spring/vernal equinox 1904). So the Thelemic new year kicks off with the spring equinox, when Sol enters Aries (source: Astrology question (self.thelema) --- https://www.reddit.com/r/thelema/comments/2jnhd7/astrology_question/) ."

"... the Spring Equinox, [...] in the northern hemisphere is around the 20th or 21st of March and in the southern hemisphere around the 23rd of September (source: All About Eostre/Ostara and The Origins of ‘Easter’ --- http://www.magickalwinds.com/info/2011/03/19/all-about-eostreostara-and-the-origins-of-easter/).

"The Thelemic calendar counts years from 1904 EV (the year Liber AL was received). Each Thelemic year starts at the instant of the northern-hemisphere Vernal Equinox, coinciding with the Thelemic holiday called the Feast for the Equinox of the Gods. The civil date of the Thelemic new year will thus vary from year to year, and from location to location depending on the local time zone; but it is always within a few days of March 20 (source: Calendar --- http://oto-usa.org/thelema/calendar/ (Us Grand Lodge Ordo Templi Orientis))."

The Tropical Zodiac, or the Seasonal Zodiac, begins with the Vernal Point, and the Spring Equinox, when the Sun is directly overhead at the Tropic of Cancer. Although the vast majority of Western Astrologers uses the Tropical Zodiac, it is not the only Zodiac system. The Sidereal Zodiac (Sidereal = Star) does take the precession of the equinoxes into account, and rather than beginning its cycle at the point of the Spring Equinox each year, it begins when the Sun aligns with a Fixed Star in the Constellation of Aries. The Sidereal Zodiac is also known as the Fixed Zodiac (source: Ask Kevin: About Astrology Tropical vs. Sidereal --- http://therealastrology.com/information/about-astrology/17-tropical-vs-sidereal.html).

"The sidereal zodiac begins on, or near, April 15th each year (Glossary of Astrological Terms --- https://www.starzology.com/reference/glossary-of-terms/) ."

Is the Sidereal Zodiac, or the Fixed Zodiac, which begins on, or near, April 15th each year, compatible with 'Thelemic time', which like the Tropical Zodiac, or the Seasonal Zodiac, begins around the 20th or 21st of March in the northern hemisphere, and around the 23rd of September in the southern hemisphere?


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wellreadwellbred
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15/10/2017 12:24 am  

"[The] Sidereal [Zodiac] takes [the] precession [of the equinoxes] into account, and [the] tropical [Zodiac] does not (source: PheroTalk > Discussion > MEN's Pheromone Advice, Tricks and Tips > Update On Panty Scorcher --- http://www.pheromonetalk.com/archive/index.php/t-40173-p-43.html).

Given that the ‘Thelemic time’ or the ‘Thelemic calendar’ is like the Tropical Zodiac which does not take the precession of the equinoxes into account, the following claim appears to be wrong and misleading:

"Part of the spiritual discipline of a Thelemite consists in the coordination of his personal, individual, terrestrial life with the great cosmic cycles that regulate the life of the earth and humanity. Accepting the Law of Thelema is itself such an act of coordination or alignment with the cosmic cycle known as the precession of the equinoxes (source: THELEMA Two descriptions --- https://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/crowley/thelema.htm) ."


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wellreadwellbred
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16/10/2017 1:04 am  

(Sorry for chain posting.)

The following quotes indicates that the tropical zodiac does not take the precession of the equinoxes into account, but that the sidereal zodiac does so:

"Some Western astrologers use an alternative zodiac which is fixed relative to the stars rather than the seasons. This "sidereal" zodiac drifts further out of alignment with the tropical zodiac by about a degree every 72 years. Unlike in the tropical zodiac, in the sideral zodiac the vernal point moves from sign to sign as precession occurs; currently it is in the westernmost part of sidereal Pisces, and moving steadily further westward (Zodiac From Thelemapedia --- http://www.thelemapedia.org/index.php/Zodiac) ."

"Tropical Astrology and Western Sidereal Astrology have fundamentally different approaches to the symbolism and interpretation of the Signs. Tropical Astrology believes that the qualities associated with the signs are linked to the seasons, rather than to the fixed stars, and therefore the precession of the equinoxes and the growing difference between the Tropical Signs and the relative positions of their namesake constellations is of no consequence. Sidereal Astrologers (both Western and Eastern) believe that the qualities of the signs are not related to the seasons, but rather to the specific portions of the ecliptic as measured against the fixed stars (Ask Kevin: About Astrology Tropical vs. Sidereal --- http://therealastrology.com/information/about-astrology/17-tropical-vs-sidereal.html) ."

The following quote does on the other hand indicate that the Tropical system is sensitive to the precession of the equinoxes, whereas the Sidereal system is not:

"Determined by the spring equinox, the Tropical system is sensitive to the phenomenon known as the precession of the equinoxes, the axial precession of the Earth, whereas the Sidereal system is not. The two systems consequently slightly drift apart from each other over time (about 1.4 arc degrees per century) (Thelemic Astrology This article forms part of the Introduction to the book, Hermetic Astrology --- http://oliverstjohn-thelema.blogspot.no/2012/07/thelemic-astrology.html) ."

According to a posting in a thread titled 'What Astrological System Did Crowley Use?' (on a site belonging to Temple of Thelema A Mystery School of the New Aeon), Crowley used the Tropical system in his astrological work. Jim Eshelman does in the same thread write this: "Sidereal Astrology (the Western system - not to be confused with various Asian systems) didn't come into existence until the 1940s. (That should simplify things!) Mathers was experimenting with a quasi-Sidereal zodiac (about 5° off), but that doesn't seem to have reached any practical astrological level. (It did affect his theories on Tarot and similar things.) (What Astrological System Did Crowley Use? --- http://www.heruraha.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5748 )"

Crowley writes only once about the sidereal astrological system in his The book of Thoth (under the title Diagram 9. The Essential Dignities of the Planets):

"This diagram shows the true symmetrical completion of the Sidereal- Solar System. The astronomical discoveries of Herschel (Uranus), Neptune, and Pluto have completed the tenfold scheme of the Sephiroth, and enabled the Master Therion to establish Astrology in its relation with Ceremonial Magick on a perfectly balanced basis."

According to Erwin Hessle "Thelema is a solar cult [...] so measuring the date by the position of the Sun appears appropriate. [...] the Thelemic date is measured with reference to the solar cycle, as anybody who is familiar with Thelemic dates would know, and as anybody who wasn’t familiar with them would be able to easily guess based on the highly numerous references to the “equinox” throughout Thelemic literature. [] Thelemic dates are not based on sidereal measurements, but on the solar cycle, starting and ending on the vernal equinox (source: Thelemic timeserver --- http://www.erwinhessle.com/blog/?p=60) ."


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Montvid
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31/10/2017 9:15 am  

Thanks for the interesting read. Unfortunately I don't know much about astrology/the calendar to comment but I think Crowley as well as others make mistakes and it is for us to understand and correct them in our personal practice. It is sad no one with knowledge commented on this topic.


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Michael Staley
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31/10/2017 9:54 am  

It is sad no one with knowledge commented on this topic.

Perhaps it's simply the case that no-one here has the requisite knowledge to answer this query of wellreadwellbred. I took an interest in astrology for a while in the early 1970s, and read some of the works by Cyril Fagan on Sidereal Astrology.

I haven't commented on this thread before now because it isn't really of any interest to me whether the Thelemic year is deemed to start on the Spring Equinox, or April 8th, or indeed sometime later in April when the "sidereal zodiac" begins. I do use the "Thelemic Year" on, for instance, the title page of books; but it is just a convention, much as the Christian year is just a convention.


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Michael Staley
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31/10/2017 11:46 am  

@wellreadwellbred

“This diagram shows the true symmetrical completion of the Sidereal- Solar System. The astronomical discoveries of Herschel (Uranus), Neptune, and Pluto have completed the tenfold scheme of the Sephiroth, and enabled the Master Therion to establish Astrology in its relation with Ceremonial Magick on a perfectly balanced basis.”

This quote by Crowley does not mean that he was referencing the Sidereal Astrological System. Sidereal means 'of or pertaining to the stars', or 'of planetary or lunar motion: relative to the stars'. Spare, for instance, used the term 'sidereal' in connection with his anamorphic portraits of the early 1930s onwards.


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Tiger
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31/10/2017 2:21 pm  

Jyotish, which means "science of light"
Sidereal means "pertaining to the stars." Vedic astrology feels that looking at the relationship of the Earth to the Sun is not an accurate approach to measuring the signs due to what's referred to as the "precession of the equinoxes." The Earth is spinning like a top in one direction but wobbling slightly in the other. This causes the equinoxes to precede about 50 seconds every year. What this means in simple, lay terms is that every 72 years we lose an entire day in our revolution. Therefore, every 72 years the signs must shift backward by a day to remain astronomically literal. The Western system does not adjust for this. Thus, the astrology that is predominantly practiced in Western Civilizations is no longer astronomically observable. When a Western astrologer says, "Venus in Sagittarius," you can look at night with your naked eye at the star group Sagittarius and Venus will not be there - it will be one sign back in Scorpio. This is a major reason astronomers do not believe in astrology.

https://carolallenastrology.com/vedic-astrology/vedic-astrology-vs-western-astrology/

excuse the tangent to a sidereal view


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Tiger
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31/10/2017 2:34 pm  

My Impression is that Astrology solar or not is just another tool among many and that Qabalah was A.C.’s weapon of choice .


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Jamie J Barter
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31/10/2017 8:01 pm  

... What this means in simple, lay terms is that every 72 years we lose an entire day in our revolution. Therefore, every 72 years the signs must shift backward by a day to remain astronomically literal.

Is this transcription correct?  I'm wondering if "day" should be replaced by "degree", since the signs move back approximately one degree every 72 years.  This means that to move over the course of one sign (30 degrees) it would take 72x30 or 2,160 years, and that 12 times this (or 360 times 72) amounts to 25,920 years which is approximately the total duration of the course of the precession.

The currently recognizable "tropical" astrological system had its origins in Babylon nearly three thousand years ago, possibly longer, and well over a sign divorced away from current usage.  The odd thing is that although the system should consequently be well "out of date", it nevertheless still seems to hold true and work. Any idea why that is?

My Impression is that Astrology solar or not is just another tool among many and that Qabalah was A.C.’s weapon of choice.

For what, though?  If you mean it was for divination, surely that would have been primarily the I Ching not Astrology, Tarot or Cabbala.

Norma N Joy Conquest


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wellreadwellbred
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01/11/2017 11:04 pm  

Michael Staley: "October 31, 2017 at 11:46 am REPLY #102079 [...] This quote by Crowley does not mean that he was referencing the Sidereal Astrological System. Sidereal means ‘of or pertaining to the stars’, or ‘of planetary or lunar motion: relative to the stars’. Spare, for instance, used the term ‘sidereal’ in connection with his anamorphic portraits of the early 1930s onwards."

Thank you for this information, Michael Staley.

"... the sidereal legacy of Grant and Austin Osman Spare" is mentioned in a text titled The Starry Wisdom: A perichoresical perambulation through the works of Kenneth Grant (source: http://liminalwhispers.blogspot.no/2014/10/the-starry-wisdom-perichoresical.html).

Do you Michael Staley, know if Kenneth Grant used the Sidereal Astrological System, or if he wrote about this system?

"Truly, it is written that “Every man and every woman is a star,” not a sun or even a moon. Much of what Crowley wrote is intelligble from a stellar or astral perspective as opposed to a purely “solar- phallic” one. Some of Grant's criticisms of Crowley's approach to magic are legitimate; that does not mean that Crowley's Thelema has been somehow devalued in the process. It can only benefit from constructive ideas and the expansion of its theory and practice into new, uncharted territories. Yet, any criticism of Crowley is considered anathema in some quarters, and those with lesser initiations feel unequal to the task of questioning either Crowley himself or his (appointed or unappointed) heirs." (Source: page 288, in Peter Levenda's book published in 2013, Dark Lord: H.P. Lovecraft, Kenneth Grant and the Typhonian Tradition in Magic.)


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Tiger
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02/11/2017 4:43 am  

"For what, though? "

“Fortunately, there is one science that can aid us, a science that, properly understood by the initiated mind, is as absolute as mathematics, more self-supporting than philosophy, a science of the spirit itself, whose teacher is God, whose method is simple as the divine Light, and subtle as the divine Fire,”

"The Temple of Solomon", Liber LVII:
http://www.thelemapedia.org/index.php/Qabalah


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Michael Staley
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02/11/2017 12:32 pm  

@wellreadwellbred

Do you Michael Staley, know if Kenneth Grant used the Sidereal Astrological System, or if he wrote about this system?

He had little interest in astrology. In his early years - letters to Steffi from 'Netherwood' in 1945, for instance - alongside the date he would use terms such as Moon in Taurus, etc. He carried on with similar conventions in correspondence, such as "Full Moon", "New Moon" etc. However, to my knowledge he never cast horoscopes nor sought to analyse a situation in terms of astrological configurations.


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wellreadwellbred
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05/11/2017 5:22 pm  

Thank you again Michael Staley, for this informative answer.

The following quote from page 194, in Peter Levenda’s book published in 2013, Dark Lord: H.P. Lovecraft, Kenneth Grant and the Typhonian Tradition in Magic, associates Lovecraft's famous Words "... when the stars are right, ..." (Source: [Cthulhu Mythos] What does "when the stars are right" mean, exactly? --- https://www.reddit.com/r/AskScienceFiction/comments/4usq2f/cthulhu_mythos_what_does_when_the_stars_are_right/), with both Western and Asian astrology:

"The alignment of the lunar cycle with the menstrual cycle is an essential element of Grant's Tantra; alignments of the planetary cycles are themselves essential to the successfull practice of ceremonial magic.
To Lovecraft, the proper alignment of the stars is never described fully. It is a secret science, known only to the worshippers of Cthulhu and the Old Ones. They alone possess the knowledge of how the stars would appear when they were "right." Again, there is precedence in Western and Asian astrology. To most people in the West, astrology is essentially solar astrology. It is based on the passage of the Sun through the zodiacal belt. In India, however, astrology is sidereal: it is based on the actual positions of the planets when viewed against the stars of the zodiac rather than on a constant (solar) calendar date. Thus, people who believe themselves to be a Libran in the West may very well discover to their shock that in India they are said to be Virgoans. This is due to the precession of the equinoxes that was mentioned previously. Thus, when the “stars are right” in Europe they may not be right in India."
(Source: https://books.google.no/books?id=BR327yHJvksC&pg=PA194&lpg=PA194&dq=%22when+the+stars+are+right%22+%2B+sidereal&source=bl&ots=TxNVBvNM-5&sig=JJOBJCg9uuDWz8T9JWs2S546l3M&hl=no&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjvluH30IPXAhUJKlAKHTjUCWYQ6AEIJjAA#v=onepage&q=%22when%20the%20stars%20are%20right%22%20%2B%20sidereal&f=false)


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threefold31
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05/11/2017 10:37 pm  

Dwtw

One of the quotes from WRWB has it backwards: the Tropical Zodiac is not sensitive to the Precession of the Equinoxes; that is in fact the definition of the Sidereal Zodiac. IOW, what stars are behind the Sun at the moment of Equinox? Those constellations change on a regular basis, as the equinoctial point moves backward on the Earth's orbit.

But the point of Equinox is always the point when the equator aligns with the orbital plane of the Earth, producing equal amounts of light and darkness during one Earth rotation. This is the beginning of Spring (in the Northern hemisphere), no matter what stars are seen behind the sun on that day. The reason Tropical Astrology retains its validity in the face of the very obvious Precesion of the Equinoxes, is that it is ultimately based on the seasons, not the stars. It's just that the system was codified when the Equinox occurred with the sun in Aries, which is no longer the case.

So when AC urges the aspirant to get into sync with nature, it is perfectly natural to equate the Vernal Equinox with the season of rebirth, whether the sun is 'really' in Pisces instead of Aries at that moment. The key is not the constellation, it's the season.

Crowley's comment in TBOT about the "Sidereal-Solar System" is clearly not about Sidereal Astrology, (which came about much later) but about the Sun and the Constellations, with the planetary rulerships, etc.

The original question in this thread is akin to asking whether Fahrenheit is compatible with Celsius.

Litlluw
RLG


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wellreadwellbred
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06/11/2017 8:45 pm  

Reply To: Is the Sidereal Zodiac, compatible with ‘Thelemic time’ or ‘Thelemic calendar’?

A text titled The Starry Wisdom: A perichoresical perambulation through the works of Kenneth Grant (source: http://liminalwhispers.blogspot.no/2014/10/the-starry-wisdom-perichoresical.html), has already been quoted in this thread. And within that text it is stated that the idea of ‘stellar gnosis’ is a theme found throughout Grant’s work.

In a text copyrighted by Michael Staley, titled Typhonian Ordo Templi Orientis A Brief History, it is stated that "The Ordo Templi Orientis" (O.T.O.) is the name applied to an arcane tradition once known as the Stellar Wisdom, which had its roots in Lemuria ( http://www.parareligion.ch/dplanet/staley/staley1.htm) ."

Stellar is an adjective for 'Relating to a star or stars' (source: https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/stellar), or an adjective for 'composed of stars' ( https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/stellar), and the following words: astronomical, galactic, astrological, heavenly and cosmic, are synonyms for the word stellar (source: http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/stellar). In what sense did Kenneth Grant understand the word stellar when he wrote about the ‘stellar gnosis’ or 'the Stellar Wisdom'? As a word 'Relating to a star or stars'?, and/or as a word referring to something astronomical?


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Jamie J Barter
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07/11/2017 12:19 am  

“The Ordo Templi Orientis” (O.T.O.) {add 'Typhonian' to taste} is the name applied to an arcane tradition once known as the Stellar Wisdom, which had its roots in Lemuria

Is this not poeticism?  Not whimsy, exactly but..  A little like the quasi-fantasmagorical treatment applied towards Atlantis, as in Liber LI.

At the danger of somebody accusing me of pulling a tangential tantrum, in addition to the query you have raised Well - and what would be of more interest to me in this article you have quoted from & irrespective of it being what S.'. H.'. Los probably designate 'ooky-spooky-wookiness' - would be: what exactly is the specific nature of the forces now erupting in our planet's ambience and what has been (scientifically) investigated therein, as in:

One of the Order's immediate concerns is the formulation of another specialised cell to implement methods of dealing with the massive "nightside" forces now erupting in the Earth's astral ambience. A potent means of encounter and investigation is a form of magical aesthesis, and a growing body of artist-initiates is now, in consequence, operative within the Order.

Stella N Joy Conquest


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Jamie J Barter
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07/11/2017 1:48 pm  

... methods of dealing with the massive "nightside" forces now erupting in the Earth's astral ambience.

I was under the impression that in Typhonian circles and thought, "nightside" meant something good, or at least, not bad.  But this seems to suggest something different: what is it that needs to be dealt with in terms of the "eruption", just what's supposed to happen if it isn't, and has there been any advance made in the 31 years since this was written?

N Joy


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wellreadwellbred
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08/11/2017 6:21 am  

On page 32 in Peter Levenda’s book published in 2013, Dark Lord: H.P. Lovecraft, Kenneth Grant and the Typhonian Tradition in Magic, it is stated that Kenneth Grant's new form of Thelema, the Typhonian Order, represented what he called the Typhonian/Stellar Current (source: https://books.google.no/books?id=BR327yHJvksC&pg=PA194&lpg=PA194&dq=%22when+the+stars+are+right%22+%2B+sidereal&source=bl&ots=TxNVBvNM-5&sig=JJOBJCg9uuDWz8T9JWs2S546l3M&hl=no&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjvluH30IPXAhUJKlAKHTjUCWYQ6AEIJjAA#v=snippet&q=stellar%20Current&f=false).

I am taking into consideration my above quote, and my prior quotes, in this thread, from Peter Levenda’s book Dark Lord: H.P. Lovecraft, Kenneth Grant and the Typhonian Tradition in Magic, and bearing in mind that Kenneth Grant "had little interest in astrology. [...] never cast horoscopes nor sought to analyse a situation in terms of astrological configurations (according to Michael Staley's informative REPLY #102098 in this thread).". And my general impression is that the "stellar or astral perspective" that is associated with Kenneth Grant in this book, is misleading to the degree that it emphasises astrology, because Kenneth Grant had little interest in astrology.


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wellreadwellbred
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08/11/2017 7:27 am  

"“Truly, it is written that “Every man and every woman is a star,” not a sun or even a moon. Much of what Crowley wrote is intelligble from a stellar or astral perspective as opposed to a purely “solar- phallic” one. Some of Grant’s criticisms of Crowley’s approach to magic are legitimate; that does not mean that Crowley’s Thelema has been somehow devalued in the process. It can only benefit from constructive ideas and the expansion of its theory and practice into new, uncharted territories." (Source: Dark Lord: H.P. Lovecraft, Kenneth Grant and the Typhonian Tradition in Magic, by Peter Levenda, page 288.)

That Peter Levenda emphasises astrology in the “stellar or astral perspective” that he associates with Kenneth Grant (who had little interest in astrology) in his book "Dark Lord: etc.", can also be understood as a further development of this “stellar or astral perspective”.


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wellreadwellbred
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09/11/2017 7:52 pm  

Jamie J Barter: "... what exactly is the specific nature of the forces now erupting in our planet’s ambience and what has been (scientifically) investigated therein ..."?

"KG. Man has evoked certain energies, and therefore certain entities, the nature of which he is ignorant, and for confrontation with which he is almost totally unprepared.

Q. He has called them into being by his own folly.

KG. Ignorance is the prime culprit, but there are others. There is a deliberate and perverse determination on the part of man today to amass material possessions. Complete materialisation is desired and therefore a state of total materialism dominates and conditions his activities. With exclusively materialistic motivations man can but destroy himself for they admit of nothing beyond himself (source: http://kennethgrant.blogspot.no/p/original-texts-in-english.html - KENNETH GRANT OBITUARY)."


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Jamie J Barter
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09/11/2017 11:50 pm  

Thank you for responding, well.  At least you have done so, which is more than anybody else has so far thought motivated to do.  Unfortunately, then, I'm unable to react with more enthusiasm to your answer, but I just don't find it a satisfactory one.  For one thing - and this is a fairly common "complaint" (which may be too strong a word) about your replies - you answer (often exclusively) with quotes which may not be particularly relevant, but more importantly with no additional personal comment from your own perspective which might put it more into context.  However, enough on your style - now to address the content..

Your explanation is apparently that you attribute the eruption of the so-called nightside forces to the worldwide prevalence of ignorance and materialism.  However in the interview cited, Grant is not directly discussing these things as being 'nightside', and nor are they particularly nightside phenomena --- they are in fact abundant and clearly visible in the light of our 'everyday' world.  Nor are they particularly recent 'eruptions' or manifestations: they have always been with us, though possibly not to such an abundant extent.

As I mentioned, the description of these forces as being nightside implies their nature is dark, or that they belong to the realm of shadows where a shadow is cast by something which comes between the light and life (or Light and Life if you prefer) created by a star (of which our sun is our nearest example).  And in Typhonian circles this isn't regarded as anything that might be detrimental to humanity's evolution, but something to be positively worked with.  However, the sense in which it is used in the quotation given appears to be of something which IS to be deplored as detrimental, and also the fact that it is an unprecedented occurrence which has not occurred previously, or at least so far as is known.

Apart from this, can there also the possibility that by the eruption of "certain entities" there was meant to be some sort of a quasi-Cthulhu type reference? It is a shame that Frater Aossic is no longer among us to 'throw some light' on the reason behind the statement quoted which was made in the first edition of Starfire, and what was meant by it. 

If there's any more mileage in discussing this it might be expedient to move the contents to a new thread (as it is not exactly on track with the original topic here), but if not it could just stand as a temporary, short-lived diversion of passing curiosity.

N Joy


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wellreadwellbred
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11/11/2017 4:38 am  

Jamie J Barter: "... If there’s any more mileage in discussing this it might be expedient to move the contents to a new thread (as it is not exactly on track with the original topic here) ..."

I agree, because the “stars, or kalas” within the star-lore of Kenneth Grant, apparently are not "the visible gems of the night sky":

"It might be helpful for those not well-versed in the star-lore of Kenneth Grant if I were to mention that what he terms as “stars, or kalas” are not the visible gems of the night sky—though they have their correspondence with them. More often than not he is referring to the nodes and constellations of a matrix—perceptible to the seer as a shining gossamer web—that extrudes from the body of the consecrated Shakti. The Sri Yantra of the Eastern Tantras is a geometric symbol of this matrix." (Source: Aquarius and the Nightside Thoth Tarot Atu The Star XVII - http://oliverstjohn-thelema.blogspot.no/2013/01/aquarius-and-nightside.html)

Jamie J Barter: "... in Typhonian circles this [= the so-called nightside forces] isn’t regarded as anything that might be detrimental to humanity’s evolution, but something to be positively worked with. However, the sense in which it is used in the quotation given appears to be of something which IS to be deplored as detrimental, and also the fact that it is an unprecedented occurrence which has not occurred previously, or at least so far as is known."

According to the following review by David Hall, of Kenneth Grant's book Nightside of Eden, the so-called nightside forces, can be be detrimental, or something to be positively worked with, depending on how they are accessed:

Nightside of Eden Review by David Hall - http://www.starfirepublishing.co.uk/Nightside_Review.htm)


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Jamie J Barter
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14/11/2017 2:44 am  

It is a shame that Frater Aossic is no longer among us to ‘throw some light’ on the reason behind the statement:

“The Ordo Templi Orientis” (O.T.O.) is the name applied to an arcane tradition once known as the Stellar Wisdom, which had its roots in Lemuria [...] One of the Order's immediate concerns (1986) is the formulation of another specialised cell to implement methods of dealing with the massive "nightside" forces now erupting in the Earth's astral ambience. A potent means of encounter and investigation is a form of magical aesthesis, and a growing body of artist-initiates is now, in consequence, operative within the Order."

which was made in the first edition of Starfire, and what was meant by it. 

I have just noticed however that the statement and article quoted was not written by 'Frater Aossic' at all, but our very own Michael Staley!  Though nonetheless it still seems that there hasn't been 'any more light' thrown on this aspect of these massive erupting nightside forces... 

If they constitute some sort of threat to the wellbeing of the human race as seems to be implied then we ought to be told as much as possible in order to prepare ourselves, surely? But if not, what other reason would there have been for the particularly dramatic use of language employed?

Yours rather concernedly
N Joy


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Tiger
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14/11/2017 5:12 pm  

“I have just noticed however that the statement and article quoted was not written by ‘Frater Aossic’ at all, but our very own Michael Staley! “

Wow thanks for bringing me back to my senses Jamie .
For a moment I was in another world viewing the weaving in the tapestry.

Ok i guess i better catch the tube go to work and pay the taxes .


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wellreadwellbred
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15/11/2017 8:08 am  

Jamie J Barter, you are quoting from a text copyrighted by Michael Staley (titled Typhonian Ordo Templi Orientis A Brief History) in your preceding post. It is within this text stated that "a growing body of artist-initiates" inside this Typhonian Ordo Templi Orientis, in 1986 was implementing "methods of dealing with the massive "nightside" forces now erupting in the Earth's astral ambience."

Your quote, Jamie J Barter, is from a paragraph within the above just mentioned text, but this quote is missing the following words that appear as the last sentence of the paragraph just mentioned at the beginning of this sentence that you are now reading:

"This inner group is co-ordinated by Jeffrey D. Evans, at present the sole authorised representative of the O.T.O. in America. [meanwhile: expelled]"

The word expelled is highlighted in red in this sentence, and mouse clicking on it leads to another page containing further information.


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Jamie J Barter
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15/11/2017 6:22 pm  

Worlds within worlds. There sure were a lot of expulsions in the (T.)O.T.O. in those days. However, my concerns still stand.  No one else wants to address them; that's not unusual.  (And just where might I ask is Lemuria --- is it perhaps close on Atlantis?  "Turn left at Greenland and then straight on 'til morning...")

N Joy


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wellreadwellbred
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16/11/2017 1:22 am  

Jamie J Barter: "There sure were a lot of expulsions in the (T.)O.T.O. in those days. However, my concerns still stand."

1986 in the (T.)O.T.O, Jeffrey D. Evans co-ordinated the inner group implementing “methods of dealing with the massive “nightside” forces now erupting in the Earth’s astral ambience.” The expulsion of him, can thus have led to a decrease in the (T.)O.T.O.'s dealings with the said massive “nightside” forces, due to the loss of the member co-ordinating this effort. I don't know if someone else replaced Evans as co-ordinator, after the latter was expelled.


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Jamie J Barter
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16/11/2017 1:24 pm  

1986 in the (T.)O.T.O, Jeffrey D. Evans co-ordinated the inner group implementing “methods of dealing with the massive “nightside” forces now erupting in the Earth’s astral ambience.”
One wonders how many people his inner group or 'cell' consisted of; surely it would be more than just him, his wife and their poodle, as it were? I know the numbers of the (T.)O.T.O. are not exactly extensive, but that would be ridiculous in terms of its being (at) the frontline of the planet's defences against "dealing with" these massive erupting forces.  Which we still don't know yet are meant to be ultimately hostile to our welfare or not - although if not, then one also wonders why the fuss.

The expulsion of him, can thus have led to a decrease in the (T.)O.T.O.’s dealings with the said massive “nightside” forces, due to the loss of the member co-ordinating this effort
After 31 years some headway should  have been made --- it is the same length of time from this as from the original commencement of Nu Isis Lodge, after all.  Would it be unrealistic to speculate whether one way of their 'dealing' with the forces would be to try to implement some form of 'Noise police' in view of the menace which Kenneth Grant reckoned modern music is meant to present to human development in the modern world (with the exception of Count Basie of course) --- perhaps rock and roll should be discontinued and shunned for our own good?

I don’t know if someone else replaced Evans as co-ordinator, after the latter was expelled
This was obviously a carrying on of the grand tradition wherein Grant was himself expelled from the O.T.O. by Germer (And arguably Crowley by Reuss too, if we are going to go right back to the source).

With apologies for the diversion from the railroad
N Joy


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Michael Staley
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16/11/2017 2:48 pm  

@wellreadwellbred

What does “when the stars are right” mean, exactly?

This is an idiom in the English language that refers to the right or fortuitous time for doing something. There's not generally an astrological significance to it, though it can be used in that context as well.

In a text copyrighted by Michael Staley, titled Typhonian Ordo Templi Orientis A Brief History, it is stated that “The Ordo Templi Orientis” (O.T.O.) is the name applied to an arcane tradition once known as the Stellar Wisdom, which had its roots in Lemuria . . .”

The Statement appeared in the first issue of Starfire, published in May 1986. It is there credited as “Issued under the Seal of the Sovereign Sanctuary, O.T.O., 8th May 1986 e.v.” The text was in fact drawn up by Kenneth Grant, who submitted it for publication in the issue. If this Statement has been attributed to me on Peter Koenig’s website, the attribution is incorrect. At some past time Peter would have provided me with a draft html page prior to website publication and this is something I clearly overlooked.

In what sense did Kenneth Grant understand the word ‘stellar’ when he wrote about the ‘stellar gnosis’ or ‘the Stellar Wisdom’?

Kenneth Grant did not always define his terms; and where he did, those terms can shift throughout his body of work. Sometimes he used terms that link up apparently disparate phenomena; an example of this is referenced by Oliver St.John in the passage which you highlighted in an earlier post:

“It might be helpful for those not well-versed in the star-lore of Kenneth Grant if I were to mention that what he terms as ‘stars, or kalas’ are not the visible gems of the night sky—though they have their correspondence with them. More often than not he is referring to the nodes and constellations of a matrix—perceptible to the seer as a shining gossamer web—that extrudes from the body of the consecrated Shakti."

Increasingly interested in Tantra from the mid 1940s onwards, Grant was a devotee of the Great or Primal Goddess, which, through steeping himself in Gerald Massey's work in the late 1940s, he identified with Ta-Urt or Typhon. Grant would have seen everything as constituting the body of the Goddess; this is the pantheist notion (some would say insight) which permeates the first chapter of The Book of the Law. It is also the realisation which underpins the succinct Hindu analogy likening existence to a play wherein all the roles are played by Brahma, who is however so immersed in each role that he has lost sight of his universality.

This leads on to perhaps the most fundamental underpinning to Grant's work, which is Advaita Vedanta. Grant was aware of Advaita amongst other Eastern bodies of praxis, but in mid 1952 had a major epiphany into the fundamental importance of it. Advaita permeates the Typhonian Trilogies, and Grant's work cannot be properly understood without it.

Since Grant did not always define his terms, it is left to the reader to infer them. Over the years I have come to the opinion that the Stellar Gnosis glyphs the further, outer reaches of awareness - outer, that is, in relation to what might be thought of as human awareness. In terms of Advaita there is no inner and no outer; however, we still use these terms notionally.

There are uses of ‘stellar’. For many years I have been undertaking Lam workings with several colleagues, passing through many different ritual structures. At one time we would identify the seven principal chakras with the seven principal stars of the constellation Draco. Nor is this a unique approach.

… methods of dealing with the massive “nightside” forces now erupting in the Earth’s astral ambience.

By the term ‘nightside forces’ I think Grant was referencing atavistic forces which he saw as seeping into conscious awareness from the depths. By ‘depths’ is meant not just the personal subconsciousness, but the vast depths of universal or collective unconsciousness beyond that.


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Jamie J Barter
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16/11/2017 8:00 pm  

The Statement appeared in the first issue of Starfire, published in May 1986. It is there credited as “Issued under the Seal of the Sovereign Sanctuary, O.T.O., 8th May 1986 e.v.” The text was in fact drawn up by Kenneth Grant, who submitted it for publication in the issue
Ah, so. As stated, I thought that I recognised the distinctive light 'fantastical' touch of 'Frater Aossic' there, from the very first sentence with its attribution to Lemuria.

By the term ‘nightside forces’ I think Grant was referencing atavistic forces which he saw as seeping into conscious awareness from the depths. By ‘depths’ is meant not just the personal subconsciousness, but the vast depths of universal or collective unconsciousness beyond that.
So it looks as though, in this context anyway (and despite sentiments in Beyond the Mauve Zone to the contrary) rock & roll is safe and musicians (and especially those of a Typhonian hue) can rest easy against their amps - at least for the moment.  Instead though, one can emulate Sherlock Holmes and deduce that there still seems to be a suggestion of some Cthulhu-sort of influence at work, another one of the author's hobbyhorses.

Advaita permeates the Typhonian Trilogies, and Grant’s work cannot be properly understood without it.
I may be oversimplifying, but understand this term to mean in a nutshell the primal state of Unity behind everything, which is beyond that of dualism.  But is there anywhere within the Trilogies where it is succinctly explained how this Oneness then reduces to the ultimate Zero or none as in Liber AL I: 45,48?  There probably is, but I can't place one (no pun intended) at the moment (the essence being in the phrase "succinctly explained".)

At some past time Peter would have provided me with a draft html page prior to website publication and this is something I clearly overlooked.
With this there seems to be a refreshing sense of tolerance abroad within the (T.)O.T.O. as opposed to the (C.)O.T.O., where I have been reliably informed fraternisation (or even communication via the web) with Mr Koenig is not only frowned upon but tantamount to being an invitation for expulsion. Which is all the rage and de rigueur in the Order, it seems.

With thanks for some clarification
N Joy


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Michael Staley
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20/11/2017 1:10 pm  

@Jamie

I may be oversimplifying, but understand this term to mean in a nutshell the primal state of Unity behind everything, which is beyond that of dualism.

Advaita means simply 'not divided'. Whether the undivided is seen as one or as nought is a secondary issue in my opinion, though I think some people get quite heated about the matter.

But is there anywhere within the Trilogies where it is succinctly explained how this Oneness then reduces to the ultimate Zero or none as in Liber AL I: 45,48?

No, there isn't. Like all 'first causes' it's something beyond rationality and logic, and hence beyond articulation in language. There is a very good chapter in Outer Gateways, 'The Madhyamaka & Crowley', which - again, in my opinion - makes some very interesting points about the 0 = 2 equation.


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Shiva
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20/11/2017 3:21 pm  

MS: Like all ‘first causes’ it’s something beyond rationality and logic, and hence beyond articulation in language.

And that's the answer in a nutshell. First Causes precede the Mind, the mouth, and the pen, um, keyboard.

We see various mind warriors ignoring this concept all the time, as they attempt to define and/or explain suprarational states.


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Jamie J Barter
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28/11/2017 2:31 am  

@ MichaelStaley :

Advaita means simply ‘not divided’. Whether the undivided is seen as one or as nought is a secondary issue in my opinion

'Not divided' rather than some sort of an all-encompassing Unity, I like the distinction; there's some food for thought there.  So let me get this right then --- there isn't division hither homeward & Nuit isn't divided for love's sake for the chance of union & the pain of division isn't as nothing because everything wasn't divided in the first place...?

Philosophically-wrestling away yours,
N Joy


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wellreadwellbred
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29/11/2017 9:13 pm  

"... There is no bond that can unite the divided but love: all else is a curse. Accursed! Accursed be it to the aeons! Hell (The Book of the Law, Chapter I, verse 41)."

"For I am divided for love's sake, for the chance of union (The Book of the Law, Chapter I, verse 29)."

"... Love is the law, love under will. Nor let the fools mistake love; for there are love and love. There is the dove, and there is the serpent. Choose ye well! (The Book of the Law, Chapter I, verse 57) ..."

The love mentioned in "Love is the law, love under will (BOTL I:57).", being identical with the love mentioned in "For I am divided for love's sake, for the chance of union (BOTL I:29).", and the love mentioned in "There is no bond that can unite the divided but love: all else is a curse (BOTL I:41).", aligns the said law with advaita understood as meaning simply ‘not divided’.


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Jamie J Barter
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30/11/2017 1:26 pm  

@wellreadwellbred :

The love mentioned in “Love is the law, love under will (BOTL I:57).”, being identical with the love mentioned in “For I am divided for love’s sake, for the chance of union (BOTL I:29).”, and the love mentioned in “There is no bond that can unite the divided but love: all else is a curse (BOTL I:41).”, aligns the said law with advaita understood as meaning simply ‘not divided’.

However this presupposes that, until one reaches that elevated and enlightened state of doing one's [true] will, no magical (in the sense of changing) "binding" activity occurs; there is no unity taking place resulting from the act of "uniting" and instead there is "division" amongst the divided (whether hither homeward or not).

Everything (=All) else is a curse --- but tell me the answer to this: how can there actually be anything "else", where everything involved in the creation of things would 'not [be] divided' anyway?

Nor let them mistake divide (& add & multiply),
N Joy


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Michael Staley
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30/11/2017 1:44 pm  

It's Aiwass's feet you need to be holding to the fire, Jamie, not wellreadwellbred's.


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Jamie J Barter
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30/11/2017 10:03 pm  

It’s Aiwass’s feet you need to be holding to the fire, Jamie, not wellreadwellbred’s.

Like I said though, I quite liked the nuance of "not divided", and as is the case with many similar discussions on these types of forum there is ultimately no 'right' or 'wrong' interpretation beyond the subjective for anybody to give here, I feel: it's more a question of the to-and-fro of semantics.  The value is often to be found more in the argument on both sides and in the picking up something of the nature of an epiphany which might, accidentally or even purposefully, be inserted 'between the lines' therein: I was therefore more interested in the sort of response wellread might come out with (and seeing how many quotations he jemmies in proportionate to his (lack) of commentary and how often repetition may be engaged in, perhaps.  [Half] Joke there, well!)

Not actively seeking to be divisive,
N Joy


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wellreadwellbred
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01/12/2017 12:31 pm  

Jamie J Barter: "However this presupposes that, until one reaches that elevated and enlightened state of doing one’s [true] will, no magical (in the sense of changing) “binding” activity occurs; there is no unity taking place resulting from the act of “uniting” and instead there is “division” amongst the divided (whether hither homeward or not).

No, this is not presupposed according to what that was supposedly dictated to AC - from a source presented by AC as being far superior to himself in intelligence and authority - and written down within The Book of the Law. There it is stated that "... the Law is for all.", "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.", "... with thy all; thou hast no right but to do thy will.", "... pure will, unassuaged of purpose, delivered from the lust of result, is every way perfect.", and "Love is the law, love under will."

Jamie J Barter: "Everything (=All) else is a curse — but tell me the answer to this: how can there actually be anything “else”, where everything involved in the creation of things would ‘not [be] divided’ anyway?"

Given that "... the Law is for all.", it appears to involve everything, not leaving out anything (else).

The word love used within The Law of Thelema ("Love is the law, love under will."), aligned with advaita understood as meaning simply ‘not divided’ (as described by me within REPLY #102551 in this thread), is in support of it appearing to involve everything, not leaving out anything (else).


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wellreadwellbred
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01/12/2017 1:36 pm  

The following statement within The Book of the Law, "There is no law beyond Do what thou wilt." (III:60), does also make this law appear to involve everything, not leaving out anything (else). That is, the said statement makes the law of Thelema appear to be an all-encompassing universal law.


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wellreadwellbred
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01/12/2017 5:18 pm  

(Sorry for chain posting!)

You, Jamie J Barter, wrote that "doing one’s [true] will", presupposes that "... one reaches that elevated and enlightened state of doing one’s [true] will".

With respect to doing one’s 'pure will', there is mention of a "state of manyhood bound and loathing.", but there is no mention of an "elevated and enlightened state", within the following quote from The Book of the Law:

"Let it be that state of manyhood bound and loathing. So with thy all; thou hast no right but to do thy will (I:42). Do that, and no other shall say nay (I:43). For pure will, unassuaged of purpose, delivered from the lust of result, is every way perfect (I:44)."


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Jamie J Barter
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02/12/2017 1:41 pm  

Any more for any more?

I'm not sure I should be encouraging you to veer off-topic like this, well.  I happen to be very conscientious that way, you know!

What is it that your collective points are saying, en masse?  What would you like me to say back to you?

I'm not disagreeing with the proposition behind advaita that we are all 'not divided'.  But contrariwise, as indicated by selective quoting from The Book of the Law, nor was I necessarily agreeing either.  I'm simply pointing out that there's more than one way of looking at things, more than one point-of-view.  More than one way to skin a cat. Would you disagree or take issue with me on that?

“Everything (=All) else is a curse — but tell me the answer to this: how can there actually be anything “else”, where everything involved in the creation of things would ‘not [be] divided’ anyway?”
--- Given that “… the Law is for all.”, it appears to involve everything, not leaving out anything (else).
The word love used within The Law of Thelema (“Love is the law, love under will.”), aligned with advaita understood as meaning simply ‘not divided’ (as described by me within REPLY #102551 in this thread), is in support of it appearing to involve everything, not leaving out anything (else).

Then, by its very nature, the "curse" is divided (that is separate) from all else e.g. Love. Also, there are Love and love - so choose ye well...

The following statement within The Book of the Law, “There is no law beyond Do what thou wilt.” (III:60), does also make this law appear to involve everything, not leaving out anything (else).  That is, the said statement makes the law of Thelema appear to be an all-encompassing universal law.
This is another, completely different verse.  (They say the devil is allowed to quote holy scripture, did you know that?)  You could have mentioned "Bind nothing, let there be no difference" and "there is no difference" (I:22,4) in there as well.

Allow me to clarify something further for  you:

that elevated and enlightened state of doing one’s [true] will
By this I meant, that it's elevated and enlightened compared or relative to that of mundane consciousness, not doing one's will.

BeAst wishes
N Joy


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dom
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02/12/2017 4:17 pm  

Re OP, I advise you to ask Jim Eshelman as he is an astrologer.

Now, I'll ley y'all get back to these massive “nightside” forces now erupting in the Earth’s astral ambience.”

.....Ahem!


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Jamie J Barter
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02/12/2017 7:00 pm  

Re OP, I advise you to ask Jim Eshelman as he is an astrologer.
Is he a participant on this forum, as I can't find him - does he have a different avatar name?

I'm sure I can't be the only person who is wondering what could have required five (count 'em!) edits/ modifications carried out within the space of four - actually more like two - lines, or approx. thirty four words?

(... Bless you!)
N Joy


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dom
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02/12/2017 8:28 pm  

They invented google search and emails. Master Eshelman is out there.


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Horemakhet
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02/12/2017 10:54 pm  

Master Bator is also 'out there'.

.....Ahem!


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wellreadwellbred
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03/12/2017 10:36 am  

My point is that The Book of the Law proclaims "Had! The manifestation of Nuit (I:1).", as "... divided for love's sake, for the chance of union (I:29).", proclaims this love as the only bond that can unite the divided, while referring to all else than this love, that can not unite the divided, as a curse, in this respect (I:41), and proclaims a law according to which this love is subordinate to one's will (I:57). That is, my point is that it is claimed within this book that one can transcend at will, the apparent divided state of manifest existence.

As for doing one’s [true] will, being elevated and enlightened compared or relative to that of one having a mundane consciousness, and not doing one’s will, the above already quoted verses I:42-44 from The Book of the Law, leaves the impression that doing one's "every way perfect" "pure will" (I:44), involves doing "thy will" "with thy all (I:42)". My point is that doing "thy will" "with thy all" can spontaneously occure, and can spontaneously be done, without the one doing it being consciously aware of it (in advance). That is, that one can do one's "every way perfect" "pure will" (as defined in The Book of the Law), and still have a so-called "mundane consciousness" (in the sense of having no awareness of a concept or concepts resembling the Thelema associated with Aleister Crowley, and/or having no awareness of the latter).


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Shiva
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03/12/2017 4:53 pm  

Wellread: With respect to doing one’s ‘pure will’, there is mention of a “state of manyhood bound and loathing.”, but there is no mention of an “elevated and enlightened state”

Since AL quotes don't seem to clearly clear up this cloudy set of definitions, one might simply look at the matter from a QBL perspective. CHOKMAH is the house/sphere of Wisdom and WILL. That's where TRUE WILL and PURE WILL reside. And that's pretty "elevated."

Even BINAH, with it's lack of self-awareness, could be squeezed in here. At KETHER, one is said to have "no will in any direction." All else (i.e., all that stuff "below" the Abyss), might contain flashes of insight or momentary compliance.

Even those lofty, elevated degrees or levels are subject to "being accursed" because, as AC told us, we are lucky if our magickal engines reach an operating efficiency of 50%. AC as a Magus (and presumably as a 10=1) has left us several examples of where/when he suffered from "lust of result" (often involving money and/or heroin). Of course, it's not Chokmah's fault if one suffers from "lust of result." It's the human mind that is the antagonist here.

How about, "Do that and no other shall say nay." ? That's a pretty good test, isn't it? If you go to do something (anything), and some "other" says, "Nay. No. Do Not. Stop. Don't you dare." (or words to thar effect), then one is accursed ... and obviously not exercizing "Pure Will."

We've all had our moments, right? Times when everything meshes smoothly with others and with the environment ... and it's usually (always?) when one is not one, but none.

"Therefore is man only himself when lost to himself in The Charioting."
- Liber 333, Ch 8.

It doesn't matter what any Liber or Booklet says. What matters is that one decide what to do, and then do it, properly at each step or stage, without focusing on the final product. And hus get lost in the doing.

If you're writing a book, and thinking about the vast sums of royalties you'll be getting (?), or your editor says, "Nay," or your spouse says, "Stop that insane writing," well these are examples of being accursed and clearly NOT in the pure will groove.

D: Re OP, I advise you to ask Jim Eshelman as he is an astrologer.

So? I advise you (OP) to use the Borg, er, Google, to figure out the answer for yourself. Eshelman is (was?) a member here, otherwise he could not have posted his brief post here a few ears ago (when Moderator Paul and Moderator Jim digitally (electronically, not with finger-digits) exchanged a brief handshake. Anyway, all one needs to do is go over to heruraha.net and (sign up if you have to) ask the question. Jim may be a "moderator," but on his site he's also a Gooroo, jumping in and answering most posts.

And finally, on his sunny Sunday morn, I am cmoved to remind you-all (y'all) that ...

Philosophy is the Enemy of Magick.

PS:
WRWB: My point is that doing “thy will” “with thy all” can spontaneously occure, and can spontaneously be done, without the one doing it being consciously aware of it (in advance).

Your point is well made and well taken. It corresponds to my statement, "We've all had our moments, right?"


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Jamie J Barter
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04/12/2017 1:45 am  

Master Eshelman is out there
I am of course aware that JE is out there, as in: out there, in cyberspace, on his own website the herurahanet.  If you but looked closely into the word you will find that what I was wondering about was whether he was 'in here', as in a Participant on this same forum.  Happily Shiva has now confirmed that he was, with a dash of additional colour thrown in about the digital handshake.  (This put me in mind of the cover of that Pink Floyd album, "Wish You Were Here", involving a robotic handshake and a human one where the shaker is then put on fire.) Incidentally, talking of bots (which we weren't) wasn't JE's website the same as the one described by your 'guru' Los "8-3" as the abode of "fruitcakes" "nut jobs" and the like?  Do you also happen to share this opinion, david/dom? 
Also incidentally, I never needed to contact JE anyway --- I wasn't the one making the enquiry regarding the OP (say, does anyone here still remember that?!)

my point is that it is claimed within this book that one can transcend at will, the apparent divided state of manifest existence.
Noted.
My point is that doing “thy will” “with thy all” can spontaneously occure, and can spontaneously be done, without the one doing it being consciously aware of it (in advance) [...]and still have a so-called “mundane consciousness" [...]
Ditto noted well.  Incidentally again, I was not disputing the possibility of this happening.  In fact it's quite a common view that we are all actually carrying out our "true will" all the time in this manner; that the trouble only begins when one starts to 'think' about it.
(Incidentally yet again, in replies you continue to demonstrate your fondness for an abundance of "quoting", Etc!)

Master Bator is also 'out there'
I thought for a moment this was a reference to that swashbuckling maritime crew belonging to Cap'n Pugwash (among whose members, you might recall, were Master Bates, Seaman Staines & Roger The Cabin Boy). [EDIT - or was it On The Good Ship Venus?]

[...] Philosophy is the Enemy of Magick. [...]
Nicely put.  (Your post I mean.)

N Joy


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 mal
(@xon)
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02/05/2018 2:32 am  

A sidereal notation reinforces awareness of the actual locations(red crosses) of the equinoxes and solstices; which are currently lining up well with the galactic cardinal points(blue crosses) as shown in the panorama below.

Aries is just visible above the western horizon at the right of the picture and was the location of the Sun at the Equinox 2000 years ago. The precession is considerable.

The Winter Hexagon is a large distinctive asterism that is made of some of the brightest stars and is outlined to give some perspective on the image. Full moons on or close to the December solstice make a wonderful alignment to watch for. The star Sirius, a close neighbor at around 8.5 light years distance, is the southernmost point.

Near the Galactic North Pole in Coma Berenices is a cluster of galaxies about 300 million light years distant.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kewAsI7Pgnw

Compared to the current observable universe at 93 billion light years the distance of those galaxies is barely noticeable in the image below.

Getting back around to the topic with that bit of stellar cosmic perspective in mind, it's up to the individual and communities what they want to use and recognize.
To help differentiate between a Tropical or Sidereal Thelemic date maybe prefacing the sidereal astronomical notation with the day since the equinox would help. Day 1 could be the 1st midday of the Vernal Equinox above Cairo every year, for example. Day 90 would be near the Solstice and so on. It would be easy to tell which is being used. Might start doing this with my calendar and see if it works.

We hold the Earth fro Hell away. 🌹


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(@xon)
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02/05/2018 10:51 pm  

A few further thoughts related to Thelemic calendar keeping, the Equinox of the Gods, astronomical precession, the Vernal Equinox and the South Galactic Pole.

The following images are Stellarium screenshots of the Vernal Equinox in 1904, 1998, and 2092 with the ecliptic grid(of date), a projection of the Earth's equator and the galactic grid superimposed. The South Galactic Pole is the point of convergence of the green lines towards the bottom right of the images.
1904

1998

2092

In 1904 the SGP was about 1.32 degrees to the right of 0 longitude just above 30S. In 1998 it lined up with 0. In 2092 it will be the same distance from 0 as it was in 1904 but 1.32 degrees to the left. A change of 2.64 degrees longitude in 188 years.
In light of this I might start numbering the days of the calendar as day 1 on March 21, 1904 and count through to the day before the Vernal Equinox of 2092. That rounds close to 69000 days. 68666 at a quick scribble. Could be off and that's assuming all this other stuff is correct too.
It would be great if this astronomy software would let me set the ecliptic epoch to EotG1904 instead of J2000 or (of date).

We hold the Earth fro Hell away. 🌹


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