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Frater_HPK
(@frater_hpk)
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Joined: 16 years ago
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Dear Friends,

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law

I am not sklilled in astrology. I know only basics. Now I am aware that I have to learn more. Which astrology is more suitable for Thelemites and Thelemic practices, traditional or "modern"? In a couple of weeaks I expect to get some John Frawley books, he sometimes has workshops here and have some students. His books are translated in my language. Just currious, is better to learn this astrology or astrology with Pluto, Uranus and Neptune included? Thanx in advance for every opinion.

Love is the law, love under will

B.


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kidneyhawk
(@kidneyhawk)
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Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 1958
 

Dear Frater_HPK,

When I first began to study Astrology, I had just acquired the Thoth Tarot and was wanting to better understand the ideas and energies behind the Zodiacal and Planetary Signs used as correspondences in the deck. As Thoth employs the 10 "Planets," I certainly wasn't going to stop with Saturn! 🙂

What began as some research into the symbolism of Astrology turned into me actually taking Astrology Courses and getting in much deeper than I would have thought! I studied first with the Rosicrucian Fellowship and then with the Church of Light. I found that most Astrologers tend to really master a starting system (with a particular school or training system) and end up drawing their own unique conclusions regarding details, based on hundreds upon hundreds of horoscopes. As such I think almost any system or school with a decent reputation is going to be OK to start at-but yes, I WOULD go with the 10 Planets. Incorporating them into the scheme of Astrolgical Thinking and Work should fit very well with the Tables of Correspondences in 777, the Thoth Tarot, Qabalah etc.

I hope you have a great time with this work and it will be interesting to hear your observations and thoughts as you post them!

93,

Kyle


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 Anonymous
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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
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93,

Not sure if this is on-topic or not, but traditionally as everyone knows, there are Seven Sacred Planets, namely Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, and the Sun (Correct me if I'm wrong please. Perhaps it is the Moon and not the Earth or...?).

Okay, so then due to the discoveries of modern science we end up with Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto. Then only a few months ago I remember hearing that science said something about Pluto not being a planet and etc.

Does anyone know the outcome of this study? Certainly things would change a bit if Pluto was cast out.

As for personal Astrological experience, I probably received the best advice from Crowley in _The Complete Astrological Writings of Aleister Crowley_. Perhaps this was because I've read enough of his works that the informaiton was easily understood, and perhaps it was the best explanation of the degrees of the Wheel that I've read. Most of my own Astrological experience comes from well, experience lol not of any specific kind. I have recentl procured a copy of _The General Principles of Astrology_ but they said Crowley wrote it, which is shady, as the Complete Writings says that he never really wrote much about it.

Perhaps Aleister Crowley is to Magick what Tupac Shakur is to rap music.

93 93/93,

Az


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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"Azidonis" wrote:
93,

Not sure if this is on-topic or not, but traditionally as everyone knows, there are Seven Sacred Planets, namely Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, and the Sun (Correct me if I'm wrong please. Perhaps it is the Moon and not the Earth or...?).

Mercury, Venus, Moon, Mars, Sun, Moon, Jupiter, Saturn. Earth is not a 'planet' according to the scheme and both sun and moon are.

Okay, so then due to the discoveries of modern science we end up with Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto. Then only a few months ago I remember hearing that science said something about Pluto not being a planet and etc.

Does anyone know the outcome of this study? Certainly things would change a bit if Pluto was cast out.

What study? Pluto isn't officially a planet. That's all. This doesnt change people who use Pluto's calculations at all. For all the rest of us who stuck with the traditional septenary ti changes nothing at all.

As for personal Astrological experience, I probably received the best advice from Crowley in _The Complete Astrological Writings of Aleister Crowley_. Perhaps this was because I've read enough of his works that the informaiton was easily understood, and perhaps it was the best explanation of the degrees of the Wheel that I've read. Most of my own Astrological experience comes from well, experience lol not of any specific kind. I have recentl procured a copy of _The General Principles of Astrology_ but they said Crowley wrote it, which is shady, as the Complete Writings says that he never really wrote much about it.

Your ignorance is shady - he ghost wrote it under evangeline adams and recently the OTO bought hte rights and repritned it rightfully under Crowley's name

Perhaps Aleister Crowley is to Magick what Tupac Shakur is to rap music.

93 93/93,

Az

Yea, Crowley, Tupac, and Hitler are all actually alive, partying it down and celebrating the great social movements they all engendered.

65 & 210,
111-418


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spike418
(@spike418)
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Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 216
 

Thelema Frater HPK

I would suggest keeping it simple 😉
Its easy to get bogged down with theory. You should visit www.astro.com, grab yourself the emphemeris for this year, check whats happening over the next week or so. Learn the basic aspects and planetary interpretations, using all the planets. Do a few planetary workings/meditations (Cast a chart using the website first, just to see ALL the aspects at the time of work.) and see where your HGA and the Spirits take you......

Work will always beat theory hands down! And hands on learning will teach you so much more.

ALWays

Spike


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
 

Yeah, they've quite recently found new dwarf planets besides Pluto orbiting the Sun. Before this, Pluto was considered an actual planet. An interesting fact, especially for those who have read Principia Discordia, is that one of the new dwarf planets is called Eris!

I must admit that in my rituals and Magick work, I've never attached that much importance to Pluto, Uranus or Neptune though I've seen Crowley insert them into the Tree for instance.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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I've been taught that Neptune and Uranus were 'captures' and are not original to this solar system. Not only that, but Neptune is from a different manvantara, which is something I set aside for later thought. I don't know how I can get more information on Neptune being from a different manvantara. Truth is, I didn't try. In consideration of deciding Pluto is a dwarf planet, it makes me want to compare its size to Mercury. I'm glad all these wonderful astronomers are there to tell me what is what.

Abc


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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Generally speaking; the seven planets of the ancients are now generally referred to as the personal planets, having a close "influence" on the natal chart and PERSONAL issues. The more recent trans-Saturn planets, Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto are much slower moving and tend to imply more generational factors, because everyone within a broader window of time has similar outer planet aspects. The outer planets are very relevent to collective psychology and historical trends. In the personal chart the aspects between the personal and outer planets can indicate your relation to those factors. But the personal impact of the outer planets, indicated by key aspects with your personal planets should not be underestimated - especially for magicians. Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto all have important impact regarding occult, magical, or mystical abilities implied in the individuals natal chart.

So I would suggest knowing "modern" astrology, and keeping an eye on the distinction where it matters.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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poelzig, what do you think about all of those hypothetical planets and asteroids and planetoids and hypothetical points and so on, that appeared in astrology last years? Eight years ago, when I was learning astrology, there were just a few points, the planets, node, AS, MC and it was all. I knew there are some fixed stars, but it is difficult to find some good literature on this... But now it seems to me like an anarchy when everybody can come and introduce us a new interesting point from his own questionable research...


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 Anonymous
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"Poelzig" wrote:
Generally speaking; the seven planets of the ancients are now generally referred to as the personal planets, having a close "influence" on the natal chart and PERSONAL issues. The more recent trans-Saturn planets, Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto are much slower moving and tend to imply more generational factors, because everyone within a broader window of time has similar outer planet aspects. The outer planets are very relevent to collective psychology and historical trends. In the personal chart the aspects between the personal and outer planets can indicate your relation to those factors. But the personal impact of the outer planets, indicated by key aspects with your personal planets should not be underestimated - especially for magicians. Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto all have important impact regarding occult, magical, or mystical abilities implied in the individuals natal chart.

So I would suggest knowing "modern" astrology, and keeping an eye on the distinction where it matters.

~~~~~~~~~~~
I don't feel that what I wrote concerning Neptune and Uranus should interfere with anything already known. It does not displace any knowledge already held by others. If there was any tone of angst it was only towards astro-physicist types closely related with NASA.

That being said, I just want to also add that I think your post's are very near the pinnacle of perfection. Thank you.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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"Ester" wrote:
poelzig, what do you think about all of those hypothetical planets and asteroids and planetoids and hypothetical points and so on, that appeared in astrology last years? Eight years ago, when I was learning astrology, there were just a few points, the planets, node, AS, MC and it was all. I knew there are some fixed stars, but it is difficult to find some good literature on this... But now it seems to me like an anarchy when everybody can come and introduce us a new interesting point from his own questionable research...

I think the basic signs, planets, houses, aspects, and transits provide more than enough to work with.

In over 25 years of interfacing with innumerable professional and amateur astrologers of various orientations, I have yet to see demonstrated anything of real relevance coming from these totally arcane reference points, such as asteroids, satellites, etc.

Usually resorting to these far-fetched indicators is a sign that the astrologer doesn't have enough of a handle on the basic materials to see what is there, OR they are trying to make a case for something that is just not present in the basic nativity - often especially in the context of chart comparisons; trying to find potential for successful romance where there really is none, etc.

Personally there are fairly mainstream astrological factors that I find irrelevant, or of doubtful value. For example; I've never found much of use in progressions as opposed to transits, or in lesser aspects such as quincunxes as opposed to the basic set (conjunction, opposition, trine, square, sextiles), etc. And I tend to prefer straightforward chart comparisons to composite charts.

I've found that the "meat and potatoes" basic elements of Astrology give me so much to work with that I've never had to resort to anything too far out for a reading.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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"IIIAAAMMM" wrote:
~~~~~~~~~~~
I don't feel that what I wrote concerning Neptune and Uranus should interfere with anything already known. It does not displace any knowledge already held by others. If there was any tone of angst it was only towards astro-physicist types closely related with NASA.

That being said, I just want to also add that I think your post's are very near the pinnacle of perfection. Thank you.

Hello, thank you for the kind words!

My post was in response to the original question, I have no criticism of anything you posted.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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"Poelzig" wrote:
I think the basic signs, planets, houses, aspects, and transits provide more than enough to work with.

In over 25 years of interfacing with innumerable professional and amateur astrologers of various orientations, I have yet to see demonstrated anything of real relevance coming from these totally arcane reference points, such as asteroids, satellites, etc.

Usually resorting to these far-fetched indicators is a sign that the astrologer doesn't have enough of a handle on the basic materials to see what is there, OR they are trying to make a case for something that is just not present in the basic nativity - often especially in the context of chart comparisons; trying to find potential for successful romance where there really is none, etc.

Personally there are fairly mainstream astrological factors that I find irrelevant, or of doubtful value. For example; I've never found much of use in progressions as opposed to transits, or in lesser aspects such as quincunxes as opposed to the basic set (conjunction, opposition, trine, square, sextiles), etc. And I tend to prefer straightforward chart comparisons to composite charts.

I've found that the "meat and potatoes" basic elements of Astrology give me so much to work with that I've never had to resort to anything too far out for a reading.

Yes, I agree, with one or two exceptions.

I used to read the book called Lilith written by Hannelore Traugott and it made an impression on me. Since this I ever count with this point, just minor influence, but I do. It helped me a few times better understanding to the horoscopes Ive seen.
I count also with some minor aspects (quincunx, half-sextile, half-square) but only with zero-degree orbis. It may help to see some subtile relationships between planets, but it is not seen very often anyway.

But according to tradional astrology, I suppose we should start to count with the fixed stars. I have never come to useful information about this theme, just little notices about their influence through the five planets which brings their shine to us as the mediators. But if I empathize to the ancient astrologer without any computer and even without binoculus, I see the starry sky with five planets (well, Uranus may be seen too, rarely), Sun, Moon. They could count where the Ascendant and the Middle Heaven lay. And they saw a lot of the shining fixed stars, which had to be important part of their work. Thats why I reccomend to everyone just stay under the sky and observe it.

And I doubt the value of Neptune and Pluto, though they are important part of work of every modern astrologist. They are so new, that they were newbies on the sky just 100-150 ago, there cant be any tradition.

It is just my vision of the last months - to forget new stuff and turn to really old stuff.


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 Anonymous
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Actually, I consider both, traditional and modern astology is lacking of some essence. In my opinion the best is to choose what book you're drawn to on the subject, because 1st everyone's different and needs different sort of studies, 2nd it changes through the time what you need to study, 3rd question of being/feel ready for another, deeper level of studying (and I do not recommend follow your intellect if it doesn't follow your intuition).

Earth is considered the center simply because we live here and is connected with 12 houses - this is how we can interpret the Earth in our charts. Planets of interest are Sun, Moon and so on up to Saturn for basic influences (although Jupiter and Saturn are not personal planets). Star Beings claim that outern planets - Uranus, Neptune and Pluto - are some sorts of gates that soul can get in or out through; their influence is transforming and of much more subtle matter, still powerful though.

And about different influences, yes, they're affecting us and our lives, but are of less importance than traditional astrologic influences. However, I think fixed stars may be of crutial importance for many people, along with Moon Nodes. I learnt Moon Nodes are as important as ascendant if soul point of view is considered.


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einDoppelganger
(@eindoppelganger)
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Joined: 12 years ago
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I too find myself wanting to get a better understanding of Astrology as a symbolic system similar to the Tree of Life. It also seems to be very important when reading a lot of Crowley material to have some understanding of Astrology. My main goal is to be able to read and understand the Astrological references in the work of Crowley, Dee, and the various Grimoires that reference planetary hours etc.

Im interested in Kyle's recommendation to use the 10 planet system. Can anyone tell me what planetary system the old Medieval grimoires were using? What system would John Dee have used?

Sorry for the very general base questions. I have been kicking this around for the past couple months and I really do think its time to take a concerted approach to gaining some adacemic understanding of the various systems with an eye toward the ones most applicable to my reading.

Thanks all

S


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