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David Dom Lemieux
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This story about Crowley aged 14 killing a cat "to see if it had nine lives" surely this is another publicity-seeking prank aimed at winding-up stodgy people especially British censors?

I know that dog is 'man's best friend' and cats are sadistic creatures devoid of affection and all but hey....

Reference page 30 Colin Wilson's The Nature of the Beast The Aquarian Press

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Michael Staley
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@dom

cats are sadistic creatures devoid of affection and all

Having had a cat, Stan, from 2004 until his death last August, I can assure you that your throw-away remark that they are "devoid of affection" is not true.

This story about Crowley aged 14 killing a cat “to see if it had nine lives” surely this is another publicity-seeking prank aimed at winding-up stodgy people especially British censors?

No, I don't think so. It was a simple act of cruelty, rather than a "publicity-seeking prank" or a wind-up.


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David Dom Lemieux
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Having had a cat, Stan, from 2004 until his death last August, I can assure you that your throw-away remark that they are “devoid of affection” is not true.

I doubt it mate. Cat-lovers have ways of seeing things that just aren't there.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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belmurru
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Whether a true story or not, it seems impossible as he writes it, unless he was dumb as a rock at age 14. Each of those methods presumably killed the cat; unless it came back to life each time, he would have had to find a new cat to try it on, since the purpose of the "experiment" is not to kill a cat once and then find 8 other ways to hurt its corpse, but rather to test the thesis that a cat has 9 lives.

But the experiment is nonsense unless you try it on a kitten you have seen born yourself, since how can you possibly know how many times a cat has cheated death unless you have witnessed every moment of its life?

Simply nonsense, the whole story, and whatever reason AC threw it in there.


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belmurru
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A cat's affection is not a dog's affection, that is true. Cats are not "cruel", but they have no concern for the suffering of their prey, once they have decided to play with it. Why should they have feelings for a bird, rat or lizard? But for those with whom they bond, their affection is limitless, deep, and true.

Cruelty is a cheap charge anyway, from anyone who eats meat bought commercially. Ever been to a slaughterhouse and witnessed what goes on there? It is not careful euthanasia.


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Michael Staley
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@dom

I doubt it mate.

I don't give a toss whether you doubt it or not. My cat displayed affection.

It's laughable, the ignorant balderdash with which your posts are peppered.


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Tiger
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@dom
Some day you might be worthy of seeing a cats affection but highly unlikely .


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elitemachinery
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belmuru said:

Simply nonsense, the whole story, and whatever reason AC threw it in there.

The story is probably true, a youthful act of cruelty, and AC was just sharing it in his mischievous way.

@michael-staley said to @dom:

It’s laughable, the ignorant balderdash with which your posts are peppered.

@dom 's function here seems to be as resident troll. He keeps the forums running by commenting on every post and every thread. Making sure the software still works doesn't get rusty. Not to be taken seriously.

Coincidentally, I have 10 cats. On Friday, one of the kittens stuck his head in a heavy door as it was closing. I caught the door before it closed but it was too late. His head was pinched and he was convulsing. I knew it was bad.

He died in my arms three hours later. It was terrible. His name was Junior or Tiger Jr, named because he looked like his older brother named Tiger.

I buried Junior on Saturday. Cried like a baby. When you connect with an animal sitting on your chest purring away it changes you. This whole thing that Crowley was sadistic may be true or it may be folklore, but people do grow up. And the tendency for Crowley clones and Thelemites to mimic asinine behavior, in word or deed, is just stupid.


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Tiger
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@dom
It is evident that you don’t see ;
that cats can see things ,
you don’t see .

Magical they are !

@elitemachinery
Sorry for your loss .
Crowley was masochistic as well .


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Tiger
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@dom
Your ears might work
but you are deaf .

If only you could smell and hear like a cat .


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elitemachinery
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Cats in ancient Egypt:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cats_in_ancient_Egypt

"As a revered animal and one important to Egyptian society and religion, some cats received the same mummification after death as humans. Mummified cats were given in offering to Bast.In 1888, an Egyptian farmer uncovered a large tomb with mummified cats and kittens. This discovery outside the town of Beni Hasan had eighty thousand cat mummies, dated after 1000 BC. The punishments for harming cats were severe."


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ignant666
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Aside from this youthful cat-torturing episode, i can't recall Crowley mentioning any dogs or cats (there is i suppose that crucified toad). Of course he moved around a lot which is not conducive to having animals.

Was Crowley among these suspicious petless people like Trump?

I am more of a dog man myself (i am currently owned by two bitches, a pitbull and a cockapoo), but have wanted to get a cat of late. My wife is vociferously anti-cat. When i pressed her as to why, she finally came out with "I do not like the way that they are, and the way that they move!" which is pretty unanswerable. English is not her first language, but she does manage to express herself.


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belmurru
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I thought we had discussed AC's pets a few years ago, but all I can find are a few remarks in this thread -
www.lashtal.com/forums/topic/how-to-spell-fiaof-in-full/#post-83234

Besides dogs at Boleskine, I don't recall any other mentions of animal companions. In principle, I can't see him walking a dog a few times a day, or feeding a cat and taking care of the litter - not to mention the extra expenditure on food.


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elitemachinery
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@belmurru said:

I can’t see him walking a dog a few times a day.

Well when you live in the Highlands you don't really need to walk them do you? Plenty of open land. Crowley was an avid hiker/climber I can imagine hiking with the dogs through the hills would be refreshing. Could do it few times a week rather than twice a day like city folk.


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ignant666
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I almost said "maybe some dogs in Boleskine?" (to hunt the haggis, of course).

As Jamie Barter (who seems to have vanished) said in the thread belmurru links, the dogs at Boleskine may well have come with the house, and may have needed little attention beyond perhaps food (if there were not enough haggis on the hoof).

While AC was clearly not a person to walk a dog, for much of his life he had servants, and i don't "walk" my two dogs- i just open the door to let them in and out (no more than 2-300 times a day). The point about the expense of feeding them is possibly valid, but again he was not always poor, and dogs can be fed very cheaply.

I think we may be stuck with the issue of AC's not entirely nurturing personality, or even a disdain for dogs, given some pejorative uses of this word (or was that just Aiwass?).

Cats i can't even recall him mentioning beyond the killing experiment. Reminded of Sid Vicious' famous "i killed a cat!" in his cover of "My Way"- in each case an attempt at the ultimate in "bad-boy-ism" when directed at the Great British Public? Just asking.


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David Dom Lemieux
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@belmurru

Simply nonsense, the whole story, and whatever reason AC threw it in there.

Yeah I veer towards seeing this as another Crowley prank up there (or down there) with the sacrifice of the 100 boys episode in Magick and theory and practice. Colin Wilson's Nature of the Beast gives good evidence that Crowley was constantly desperate for notoriety/publicity until the Sunday Express moral crusade against him in 1922/1923 when in fact it all backfired. Backfired in the sense that Joyce's Ulysses,Huxley's Antic Hay and Nabokov's Lolita had their circulation boosted on the back of the scandalous press denouncements but Drug fiend and Confessions were allowed to drop out of print. He was still out to shock afterwards as Magick and theory and practice was published some time later.

No one has mentioned AC's frog sacrifice or the alleged goat's throat being cut in the Abbey or the other cat sacrifice in the Abbey where Loveday was required to drink it's blood. Are these amongst the list of lies that estranged visitors to the Abbey told to the authorities?

A cat’s affection is not a dog’s affection, that is true. Cats are not “cruel”, but they have no concern for the suffering of their prey, once they have decided to play with it. Why should they have feelings for a bird, rat or lizard? But for those with whom they bond, their affection is limitless, deep, and true.

Cruelty is a cheap charge anyway, from anyone who eats meat bought commercially. Ever been to a slaughterhouse and witnessed what goes on there? It is not careful euthanasia.

Yeah i guess domesticated cats are warped by, well, by domestication whereas wild cats kill mice to survive and they are taught by their mothers how to hunt, kill and eat vermin. The domesticated cat's cruelty may therefore a form of stupidity or innocence i.e. it's following it's instincts but in an inadequate way so it 'plays' with the mouse before it kills it. I don't know. I know that foxes also kill cats but not as prey to be eaten. Seems to be a blood sport.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Tiger
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Cats are Angels
Perfect Killers
And love to have fun !


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Brigitte Gorez Santos
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I was going to mention the cats in Cefalu. Whether or not one was killed for Loveday to drink its blood I don't know but apparently they were roaming in the Abbey's garden. That I can believe as I have been to Cefalu and there are cats everywhere, like in most Mediterranean countries. Nobody really looks after them, they feed on scraps from restaurants.

Wonder if Crowley ate cat meat during the war, when meat was scarce. Not a nice thing but I remember my parents telling me of people eating cat meat and rat and squirrel meat during the war.


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ignant666
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... eating cat meat and rat and squirrel meat during the war.

Golly! Reminded of the PG Wodehouse character "Catsmeat" Potter-Pirbright. As a young American lad, i thought (with horror) the meat in question was from cats, not for them as i guess is obvious to UK readers.

The Cefalu cats, and Boleskine dogs, both probably came with the property.

Kindness to animals does not seem to have been among AC's virtues, but then he wasn't very nice to people either.


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michaelclarke18
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There was also the Cefalu experience, in which a cat was killed, though not by AC. On that occasion it was Loveday - according to the RL diaries - who instigated it. I find it strange how some people really dislike cat's - to an almost intense degree - usually they tend to be bird lovers.


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David Dom Lemieux
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@michaelclarke18

There was also the Cefalu experience, in which a cat was killed, though not by AC. On that occasion it was Loveday – according to the RL diaries – who instigated it.

Yeah I'd already mentioned this but interesting that you say AC never instigated it. Colin Wilson on pages 132/133 of The Nature of the Beast leaves it open about who instigated it but he conveys it in a manner that strongly suggested that it was AC's idea. I haven't seen the RL diaries but yeah RL was crazy enough to come up with such an idea.

Whatever happened AC didn't exactly protest haha.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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ignant666
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At least that poor goat at Cefalu died with a smile on his face.


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Tiger
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i don’t know if it’s haha silly
but it could be interesting to understand the scenario .


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David Dom Lemieux
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I changed my mind, cats can be affectionate.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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ignant666
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I am sure i am not the only one who will treat this revelation with the importance it deserves; thank you so much for taking time out of your busy day to let us know.


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Tiger
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Well some times cats can go screwy .
🙂


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stargazer
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The story is found on pages 70 to 71 of his Confessions (Internet Archive). It seems to me he made it up for a sarcastic criticism of animal testing.

I remember that all the time I was genuinely sorry for the animal; I simply forced myself to carry out the experiment in the interests of pure science.

 

 


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David Dom Lemieux
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This is an amazing prank even by today's standards.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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adam
 adam
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Posted by: @michaelclarke18

There was also the Cefalu experience, in which a cat was killed, though not by AC. On that occasion it was Loveday - according to the RL diaries - who instigated it. I find it strange how some people really dislike cat's - to an almost intense degree - usually they tend to be bird lovers.

I can confirm that. Also they are often psychos.

 


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Shiva
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Posted by: @adam

Also they are often psychos.

I have made a life-long study of people, cats, and dogs. It is one of the first things I inquire about when receiving visitors or when assessing patients in a psych/metaphysical manner. Here is what I have observed ...

1. Some people like cats (and they dislike dogs).

2. Some people like dogs (and they dislike cats).

3. Some people like cats (and they also like dogs).

Most people fall under nos. 1 or 2, above, but there are a few at No. 3.

Interestingly, I do not recall anyone who disliked both dogs and cats. But surely, they must exist.

I have attempted to expand this study to include birds and reptiles, with some notable notes, but I have come up with nothing that could form a scientific essay (or even a sci-fi novel). It should probably be revealed that psychos can be found in any line of animal lovers or haters, as well as on, say, the wild world web.

image

 


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christibrany
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@ignant666 I love cats and I would never harm any animal unless it was a 'pest' like a mouse eating my food.  I flushed one down the toilet because he got stuck.  They were shitting all over my kitchen at a ranch I lived at.

 

Other than that I haven't hurt anything minus insects.

I would love to go hunting deer and elk and boar though just for the food.  Sport yes but mostly food.  

 

It hurts my heart to think about the useless waste of buffalo in the 1800s. 


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christibrany
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Posted by: @shiva

3. Some people like cats (and they also like dogs).

Most people fall under nos. 1 or 2, above, but there are a few at No. 3.

I am a number 3.

I PREFER cats. But I can enjoy dogs too.

The difference is I don't WANT a dog. 

My friend's dogs are fine, we can hang out.

But after awhile I feel a bit smelly and dirty and full of hair.

Cats are cleaner.

But I like both.

For what it's worth

 

Did AC ever own any animals besides the (presumably semi feral) cat at Cefalu?

 

I am not aware of any diary entries. 

 

'Lulu shat on my carpet again' 

He moved around too much. 

Dodging bill collectors. 


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christibrany
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@david-dom-lemieux 

 

I can picture Crowley killing a cat in cold blood because kids are stupid. 

 

Stupid in the sense its just pure curiosity without any qualms , or pure emotion even.

Once threw a brick at a school colleague because he was on my swing. 

I still puzzle at it to this day. I think I must have been like 5 


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Shiva
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Posted by: @christibrany

They were shitting all over my kitchen at a ranch I lived at.

I recommend that you move to Australia, where they will allow you to deal with mice in a proper fashion.

Posted by: @christibrany

But after awhile I feel a bit smelly and dirty and full of hair.

Cats are cleaner.

Regardless of what you say, you have been automatically entered, through voluntary self-confession, into the CAT LOVER database. Your affinity with dogs is tainted (smelly, dirty hairs).

Posted by: @christibrany

Did AC ever own any animals besides the (presumably semi feral) cat at Cefalu?

There is a (fairly recent) thread on AC and his dogs.

 


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @christibrany

@david-dom-lemieux 

 

I can picture Crowley killing a cat in cold blood because kids are stupid. 

 

Stupid in the sense its just pure curiosity without any qualms , or pure emotion even.

Once threw a brick at a school colleague because he was on my swing. 

I still puzzle at it to this day. I think I must have been like 5 

No when I say prank I mean he never actually killed the cat. He was just looking to shock/get attention when he published this.   

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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christibrany
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@david-dom-lemieux
I for one think he was serious. 

We will never know.

He didn't post it on facebook livestream stuff. 


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Michael Staley
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Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

No when I say prank I mean he never actually killed the cat. He was just looking to shock/get attention when he published this.   

It's many decades now since I read Confessions, but it was my impression that he did actually kill the cat.


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Shiva
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Posted by: @michael-staley

it was my impression that he did actually kill the cat.

I took him at his (written) word and came to the same conclusion. But there's this error in logical procedure and how-to-do-it. He had heard that a cat has nine lives. As a "scientist," he (the very young Crowley, who might not yet have adopted a reasonable attitude of "science") only needed to kill the cat once ... then make observations in order to determine if the cat even had two lives, let alone nine.

The application of nine methods proves nothing, unless number one is analyzed before moving on to number two. It's the same in medicine: If we give a patient penicillin, antacids, herbs, acupuncture, and energetics, and the patient gets better, we can never answer the question, "Which modality(ies) worked?"

So this/that was my impression when I read the cat story for the first time, and it remains the same today.


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christibrany
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Posted by: @michael-staley

It's many decades now since I read Confessions, but it was my impression that he did actually kill the cat.

I agree per my post above.

 

Posted by: @shiva

we can never answer the question, "Which modality(ies) worked?"

Indeed, my 'tutor' cautioned me years ago and I am thankful for it, paraphrasing 'pick one path and stick to it diligently. If you mix magicks (sic) you will never know which one is working and which one is harming' 

None of this mixing around for 'cool/dark/flashy/weird' things just for the sake of being cool/dark/flashy/weird. 

 


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Shiva
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Posted by: @christibrany

None of this mixing around for 'cool/dark/flashy/weird' things just for the sake of being cool/dark/flashy/weird. 

You are speaking of the imitators who adopt Crowley t-shirts and make magical passes with multiple mudras while drawing sigils of dread. Yeah, them. The problem is, they don't do the work. Or they do the work that pleases them, avoiding the hard stuff.

 


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christibrany
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Posted by: @shiva
Posted by: @christibrany

None of this mixing around for 'cool/dark/flashy/weird' things just for the sake of being cool/dark/flashy/weird. 

You are speaking of the imitators who adopt Crowley t-shirts and make magical passes with multiple mudras while drawing sigils of dread. Yeah, them. The problem is, they don't do the work. Or they do the work that pleases them, avoiding the hard stuff.

 

You wanna do sex magick?

I am ready to 'break my personal taboos'

 

/sarcasm 


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Shiva
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Posted by: @christibrany

You wanna do sex magick?

Eek!  Oh, no, not that, please.

Posted by: @christibrany

I am ready to 'break my personal taboos'

Please state the exact nature of said taboos; then we can decide what to do with (or without) you.


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Falcon
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I used to have a white cat, but he went to live with the female cats down the road at a neighbours house in a harem...lucky for him! I am happy for him! I still say hello and cuddle him when I see him on the street.

 

Look, Crowley was just a kid when he carried out His experiment, "I genuinely felt sorry for the animal", but He carried out the operation "in the interests of pure science". This incident is dramatised in the documentary-drama film: "Aleister Crowley: The Wickedest Man in the World - In Seach of the Great Beast 666" which I have on DVD.

 

image

 

I am more concerned with real animal abusers like the "Brighton Cat Killer", who is due to be sentenced later this month...

 

image

 

https://www.theargus.co.uk/news/19443088.brighton-cat-killer-actor-calls-animal-protection/

 

https://www.theargus.co.uk/news/19443409.seven-pet-attacks-linked-brighton-cat-killer/


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katrice
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Posted by: @elitemachinery

He died in my arms three hours later. It was terrible. His name was Junior or Tiger Jr, named because he looked like his older brother named Tiger.

omg that's horrible!  Losing a pet is always hard but I can't imagine what it must have been like for something like that!

 

And the tendency for Crowley clones and Thelemites to mimic asinine behavior, in word or deed, is just stupid.

I hate how many people want to mimic his worst qualities.  I just want to ask them "You do know there's more to Crowley than trolling, opiates, and being an asshole, right? Do you even follow the De Cultu regimen?"

 

Posted by: @michaelclarke18

here was also the Cefalu experience, in which a cat was killed, though not by AC. On that occasion it was Loveday - according to the RL diaries - who instigated it.

I've never read Loveday's diaries.  I think I need to

Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

Whatever happened AC didn't exactly protest haha.

True.

Posted by: @christibrany

I can picture Crowley killing a cat in cold blood because kids are stupid. 

 

I believe he did.  Kids are stupid, I know I was stupid at that age, though I never hurt animals.  His Plymouth Brethren upbringing might have been a factor too, kids brought up in very strict environments can act out in extreme ways, and we know Crowley certainly acted out. 

 

Posted by: @shiva

You are speaking of the imitators who adopt Crowley t-shirts and make magical passes with multiple mudras while drawing sigils of dread. Yeah, them. The problem is, they don't do the work. Or they do the work that pleases them, avoiding the hard stuff.

 

See above, re:  " I was stupid at that age". This was definitely me when I was 14.

 

You wanna do sex magick?
 
Posted by: @shiva

Eek!  Oh, no, not that, please.

Eeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!  How shocking!  

 

Posted by: @shiva

Please state the exact nature of said taboos; then we can decide what to do with (or without) you.

Because we all know Crowley never did anything like this, right?

 


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David Dom Lemieux
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The irony is that the future Prophet of Nuit would've been sentenced to death for killing a cat at some stage in Ancient Egyptian History.

 

In Ancient Egypt, cats were sacred - killing one was punishable by death. Even if the cat was killed accidentally (thevintagenews.com)

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Shiva
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Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

... death for killing a cat ... in Ancient Egypt

If I understand the various news sources, one could be terminated by one's family, or the local tribe, in India, for eating a cow, wearing jeans, or marrying an authorized person.

Some cultures have these weird obsessions.


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adam
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Posted by: @christibrany
Posted by: @shiva

3. Some people like cats (and they also like dogs).

Most people fall under nos. 1 or 2, above, but there are a few at No. 3.

I am a number 3.

Me too. There are so many cute dogs and cute cats. I like birds, too BTW 🙂


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Falcon
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Jaz Coleman (Killing Joke): "I Hunt and Kill Animals for Pleasure" (Dark Humour or Serious?)

 

https://www.morrissey-solo.com/threads/jaz-coleman-killing-joke-i-hunt-and-kill-animals-for-pleasure-dark-humour-or-serious.142891/

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_Joke


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adam
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Eric Adams, Manowar's singer, kills grizzlies with his own hands. He likes animals. This is not a contradiction to me. I think the honest killing of an animal with one's own hands (though I myself could never do it) is preferably to the horror in slaughterhouses.

I think Michael Aquino said something like he visited a slaughterhouse once and had nightmares for weeks. He still eats meat because it wouldn't change anything to become a vegetarian.


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Shiva
(@shiva)
Not a Rajah
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 6158
 
Posted by: @adam

kills grizzlies with his own hands.

Huh? There is alligator wresting and there are dancing bears. But hand-to-paw with a Griz is somewhat stretching the envelope. Are there pics or videos up such a feet feat?

 


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