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Egyptological aspects of Thelema  

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 Anonymous
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93 All,

Somewhat bouncing off of Pauls recent thread on The Stele I'd like to address the topic of Egyptology and Thelema.

I'm obviously well aware of the importance of the symbolism of the pantheon in expressing the current both in The Book Of the Law and subsequent thelemic ritual. But beyond the symbolism how do people see Egypt relating to thelema as more than a historical point of interest?

The Egyptian doctrines all emerged long before the Aeon of Horus, is there a general feeling that Thelema as we now understand it expressed itself in a vital way durning any particular Dynasty? And do thelemites regard modren Egypt as holding signifances beyond the archaelogical and historical?

93 93/93
Kym


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 Anonymous
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Adonia,

I'm not an Egyptologist so I await the responses of others more learned to your questions. But your topic brings to my mind this question, if I can be forgiven for piggybacking a little: if the Prophet had been in Greece at the time of Contact, would the pantheon of AL be expressed as Greek gods? If in Italy, as Roman gods? In Haiti as the Voodoo pantheon? Nuit, Hadit, Ra-Hoor-Khuit seem perfectly suited to expressing the deeper cosmology of the Book, but I wonder if other pantheons might have worked just as well if the Book had been received under different circumstances.

nick


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Michael Staley
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MANIO - it's all in the egg
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"papanick" wrote:
. . .if the Prophet had been in Greece at the time of Contact, would the pantheon of AL be expressed as Greek gods? If in Italy, as Roman gods? In Haiti as the Voodoo pantheon? Nuit, Hadit, Ra-Hoor-Khuit seem perfectly suited to expressing the deeper cosmology of the Book, but I wonder if other pantheons might have worked just as well if the Book had been received under different circumstances.

The answer to this, in my opinion, is yes. An informing current upsurges from the cosmic depths, but will always to a greater or lesser extent bear the impress of the consciousness through which it is expressed, like sunlight shining through coloured glass. Similar considerations apply to where and when the current upsuges in terms of space and time.


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kidneyhawk
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Michael and Papanick-

I agree with you both 100% regarding how the Current expresses itself-in fact, it HAS and DOES express itself all the time through such "windows" ala St. Paul's classic "Dark Glass Darkly" verse. For myself, the Pantheon of Egypt takes its place along with others Pantheons and modes of expression for the Current which is not even limited by "established" systems but will express through New Forms and New Gods as they are born in the human brain and breast.

But with regards to the Current opening up onto the Planet...Outside The Circles Of Time Identifies LAM (for example) as being between Andromeda and Sirius. SO we DO deal with a type "localized" focal point for energy ingress. Returning to Egypt, do people here see this locale as any kind of "localized" point TODAY with regards to the 93 Current?

Kyle


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 Anonymous
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Just to give a side /footnote here. In the "Cults of the Shadow" Mr Grant suggests that Cowley's material is a continued reflection of something that can be traced back to the Sebek-Ra pharaohs of the XIIIth through to the XVIIth Dynasties in Egypt.

So it could be argued that the transmissions from Aiwass are continuing the work of the priests of the XVII Dynasty, instead of a new Aeon of Hourus its a progression of the old Aeon of Horus! So in that sense the entity was using Rose & Crowley to reintroduce a moment of Egyptian culture that was almost disregarded.


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kidneyhawk
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HR-!

LOL! This is such a GREAT post!!!

This approach to the Aeon of Horus would also indicate that the Current viewed as "Modern" through its proclamation via the prophet (1904) has been and is operating outside of our limited notions of both Time & Space!

Crowley begins his Intro to Liber AL with "This Book explains the Universe," not "This is your handbook for the Zeitgeist of the next 2000 years...good luck, gents!" As such, it contains (to my perception) indications of multi-form pluralalities which EXPRESS in a given symbol set but go beyond limiting it to transient phenomena...

One of my favorite passages in Grant (from Against the Light) begins with the question:

"Who is there to understand Crowley's writings, his doctrine, the facts of his magical life, should be viewed in a context infinitely vaster than that merely of socio-political programmes with magical undertones having terrestrial scope alone?"

93

Kyle


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 Anonymous
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The HermAphroditic ChAOrder of the Silver Dusk has been conducting a series of Global Chakra Workings over the last few years, at locations around the world considered to be Earth's chakras. For example, The Muladhara was at Mt. Shasta in California, the Svaddisthana at Lake Titicaca, Bolivia, Manipura at Uluru in Central Australia, the Anahata at Glastonbury, U.K.

The Visuddha Working was conducted about a month ago at Giza, Egypt. Orryelle Defenestrate-Bascule writes this about the choice of Egypt for Visuddha:
"Vissudha is the chakra of sound, vibration and communication so the emphasis will be upon harmonic chanting and Words of Power, rooted in Ancient Egyptian magick and mythology to resonate with the site of activation. There have already been some wondrous synchronous connections and a good base in nearby Saqqara established for the preparation of the working."
So, based on this, Egypt would have been an ideal location for the Voice of the Silence to come through, eh?

Information on the Global Chakra Workings can be found here:
http://www.crossroads.wild.net.au/vision.htm

Agape,
nick


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 Anonymous
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Wow! This is good stuff!

Papanick, I agree with the others. I DO believe had The Book of the Law been received elsewhere things would probably look very differently today. They might be called Liber Leghba! har har har. 🙂

But seriously, going back to my initial inquiry

And do thelemites regard modren Egypt as holding signifances beyond the archaelogical and historical?

And that should have read MODERN, opps. 🙂

I guess basically what I'm wondering is do people see Egypt as a focal point now or is it just some point of mythology carried over from times of antiquity?

As for myself I DO feel strongly that Egypt is a power zone for the Aeon, even today. There are many passages in Grant including the book Kyle quoted from which indicate forces beneath the geographic surface of Egypt still looking to emerge. Heres where "fact and fancy" become debatable topics. Still, I will not be suprised when the archaeology of the future (near future?) begins to reveal further indication of this. What do others think?

Thanks for all the replies thus far!

93 and Apage!
Kym


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wulfram
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Along these lines, I have been working for 15 years to make a corellation between the Current's Egyptian theme and how it would be addressed from a Norse context. The Egyptian pantheon has never spoken to me in the same way that the Aersir & Vanir have.


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 Anonymous
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Along these lines, I have been working for 15 years to make a corellation between the Current's Egyptian theme and how it would be addressed from a Norse context. The Egyptian pantheon has never spoken to me in the same way that the Aersir & Vanir have.

I would LOVE to hear some of your findings if you would care to share! This would tie in nicely with some of the work my husband and I have been working on. Especially considering the recent discussion around "The Temple of Seth", as Stephen Flowers (Setian) is also Edred, the Yrmin-Drighten of the Rune-Gild. My husband and I have found his approach to the "Odian" to be of great relevence to our Thelema.

Start a new thread perhaps?

93 93/93
Kym


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amadan-De
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Greetings.

This is a very interesting thread but no one has mentioned what I would have thought was a basic jumping off point.

In 1904 AC had already been through several grades of initiation in the Golden Dawn using a system full of Egyptian or quasi-Egyptian symbolism. Indeed European occultists and mystics had been using Egyptian Gods and ideas for centuaries in their works - Alchemy, Hermeticism, Cagliostro etc. Not to mention the mundane Egyptomania fostered by Napoleon. Is the framing of the Book of the Law within a cosmology rooted in Ancient Egypt perhaps the continuation of a long fascination?

Further; the thread title is 'Egyptological aspects of Thelema', and I am just wondering if there is any distinction being made between archaeological/historical Egyptology (ie what we know of what Ancient Egyptians actually did/thought/believed, and acknowledging the evolution through time of this) and esoteric Egyptology which is often a creation of later non-Egyptians and frequently suffers from misaprehensions or unjustified extrapolations.

A good example of this most people here will be aware of 😀 is the figure Harpocrates. To the Egyptians he has more to do with Infancy (Potential Power) than Silence.

Anyone who has had children will know that the two are not synonymous! 😆

The error probably started with the Greeks who misread the 'childish' finger to the mouth gesture as symbolic of an admonition to Silence. Egyptians would know that the representation of a naked or near naked figure with a scalp-lock on one side of his head was that of a child - the hairstyle was not worn by adults. (Khonsu is another of the 'eternally young' gods with this hairstyle.)
This is not to devalue the concept of Harpocrates' Dictum as a useful metaphysical tool but merely to indicate that it is a new reading of an appropriated image.

This has become much longer than I intended - sorry 🙁 - the whole subject of the reuse of older concepts and the reiteration of misinterpretations that become fossilised as 'fact' fascinates me.

On a lighter speculative note - in January of 1904 AC and Rose were in Ceylon, just imagine what could have come through there! Ravana or Rama or Hanuman?


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 Anonymous
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Aside from laying the foundations for many Greek and other pantheons, the Egyptians evoke a feeling of the mystical, the unknown, the occult, etc in general. The pyramids and sphinx always invoke a sense of awe, no matter who you are talking to. The gods are so perfectly part divine and part human that they work great for invocation.


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 Anonymous
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Aum418 wrote:

The gods are so perfectly part divine and part human that they work great for invocation.

You make a good point -- and let's not forget in many cases they are part beast as well! Their nature can be gleaned from the animal heads they are depicted with -- Horus hawk, Thoth Ibis, Set (some relative of an anteater?), etc. I think that's what makes them a bit easier to work with when assuming god forms and tapping in to their particular energy, there is a connecting to the atavistic , animal energy as well as the more civilized aspect of their function in society/culture. The easily recognizable animal aspect is missing from most other pantheons.

nick


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 Anonymous
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........


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 Anonymous
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"amadan-De" wrote:
The error probably started with the Greeks who misread the 'childish' finger to the mouth gesture as symbolic of an admonition to Silence. Egyptians would know that the representation of a naked or near naked figure with a scalp-lock on one side of his head was that of a child - the hairstyle was not worn by adults. (Khonsu is another of the 'eternally young' gods with this hairstyle.)
This is not to devalue the concept of Harpocrates' Dictum as a useful metaphysical tool but merely to indicate that it is a new reading of an appropriated image.

The Greeks made errors? 😯 😆

...on the contrary my good friend!, I very much don't think so, their (The Greeks) idology/mythology was an 'exact' Art and Science in itself, and our so called present day interpretation of their mysteries or idolic symbolism is in error, surely! (yours included im afraid 😉 ), we barely scratch the surface as to what their mysteries were intimating, as we are divorced from and limited to a diluted interpretation of their gnosis...

Long live the Neoplatonists for their efforts!

...and, lets not forget Crowley's use of Greek in Liber AL; 'Thelema', an Ancient Greek noun θέλημα, meaning 'Will'...maybe there are, pardon to pun, some 'Greek aspects of Thelema' too! 😯

Best Wishes

Charles


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 Anonymous
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93 Charles and Papanick,

I think that's what makes them a bit easier to work with when assuming god forms and tapping in to their particular energy, there is a connecting to the atavistic , animal energy as well as the more civilized aspect of their function in society/culture. The easily recognizable animal aspect is missing from most other pantheons.

Nick, I liked your angle here. This is much like what I see with Austin Osman Spares art. And perhaps this is one of the reasons it apeals so strongly to thelemic culture which is obviously rooted deeply in Egyptology. (my opinion anyway).

Charles,
I'm not quite sure I agree with you fully, although I must admit my studies in Greek history and neo platonism are hardly prolific. But it's my understanding that the greek mode of thinking aimed at greater degrees of archetypal perfection. Wern't the greeks aiming for pure forms, mathematical illumination ect? It seems that atavism reverses this aspiration and moves into the more primal, organic and chaotic.
The atavistic points of emphasis in egyptian symbolism bring to my mind what Michael Bertiaux calls the "transcendental Id" where the Greeks seem to express in their architecture ect..what could be called "transcendant super ego".
But perhaps the mathematical precision of the Egyptians coupled with the atavistic elements suggests a balance between the two (chaos and order). In which case the Egyptians combined the "above" with the "below" in perfect balance?
This is very simplified but what do you think? Math has never been my forte so god knows i'm open to a change of opinion but I do think this is an interesting connection. 😉

93 93/93
Kym


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kidneyhawk
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Well, it would appear that some posts have vanished from this thread but one in particular hinted that a more terrifying "inspiration" for the next "received text" (Book of the Law Part Two) would appear and be a lot scarier than Aiwass. This made me think right away of the great Lovecraft story "Imprisoned with the Pharoahs" where our hero (the intrepid Houdini!) delves into depths below the sands of Egypt greater than any would have guessed at and encounters a monstrous secret so large, the mere forepaw sends him packing-!

This obviously bears connection to the "Transcendental Id" (mentioned above-guess who shares books!) but as to being grounded (no pun intended) in archaeological fact, I'm very curious as to how deep (sorry, I can't stop the punning!) the Mystery goes. When I was a kid, I wanted to be an archaeologist only because Indiana Jones was and I guess I really just wanted a whip and Fedora! But now, as a Thelemite, the field is just fascinating and it would seem that archaeology may become an important aspect of this thread! I'm not at all a learned scholar in this area but have a feeling there are others here who will have quite a bit to add in this regard.

Are there any movements (digs?) currently underway which are looking towards even greater unveiling of the earth in anticipation of discovering a new (or old!) level of Egyptian Magick hitherto unaccessed?

Whereas Thelema isn't at all limited in expression by the Egyptian Symbology, can and does manifest in a vast myriad of forms (including the post-modern), I can't help but think that the Book of the Law identifying itself with Cairo wasn't just an arbitrary romantic locale. Yes, it all could have manifested in some other cultural guise (I would say it has done this-but different thread!) yet Egypt as a LOCATION seems to be as important in the revealing of Liber Al as the psycho-mystic "set up" within the Prophet's body-mind as "receptor." Amadan-de's post is very interesting esp. with regards to pre-loaded "set up" in AC's consciousness via the romanticized Egyptian fascinations of the GD-but I think there is something else...

...a forepaw stirring, perhaps?

93

Kyle


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 Anonymous
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Hello Kym

"adonia444" wrote:
But it's my understanding that the greek mode of thinking aimed at greater degrees of archetypal perfection. Wern't the greeks aiming for pure forms, mathematical illumination ect? It seems that atavism reverses this aspiration and moves into the more primal, organic and chaotic.
The atavistic points of emphasis in egyptian symbolism bring to my mind what Michael Bertiaux calls the "transcendental Id" where the Greeks seem to express in their architecture ect..what could be called "transcendant super ego".
But perhaps the mathematical precision of the Egyptians coupled with the atavistic elements suggests a balance between the two (chaos and order). In which case the Egyptians combined the "above" with the "below" in perfect balance?
This is very simplified but what do you think? Math has never been my forte so god knows i'm open to a change of opinion but I do think this is an interesting connection. 😉

93 93/93
Kym

yes, very oversimplified...

Come on now....please! Would you question the Tarot as being imbalanced? of course not!, so how could you suggest that the Greek Cosmogony or their mysteries are? How can you say that they dont represent the Hermetic (Hermes-Greek!) axiom 'As above, so below'. Please, read some of the works by Thomas Taylor and G.R.S. Mead....trust me, you will love them. I am not talking about their mathematics or architecture. These are only exoteric doctrines/work/studies which are misconstrued amongst the vulgar as being aimed at the attainment of 'perfection', or what you call, a 'Transcendetal Super Ego' but, we are talking about 'MAGICK', if we look carefully, what is this 'perfection'? Is it not gnosis? is it not illumination?...It is!, it is Theurgy at its best! Through the penetration and study/practice of their 'mysteries', they were awakening within the aspirant the Genius (Daemon) or that spark of illumination (call it something synonymous with the HGA if you want)...'Man Know thyself'. Their mysteries are there to enter into communication with something deeper, something inner (outer) and profound... later to be identified in the Western Occult Tradition as being synonymous with The Great Work or the Philosophers Stone....or if you want...by our more contemporary occultists, like Crowley, Grant, Bertiaux etc....with forces praeterhuman and most August in Power.

The Greeks truly personified or made the Word, Flesh, by observing and indulging themselves in the rhythms and cycles of natural force, trying to grasp the finer forces of nature, and represented this MAGICK exoterically in their mysteries, through prose and poetry, through art and music, through their priestesses, oracles and mediums at Delphi. Their priestesses then, were doing exactly what Crowley aspired to achieve through his Scarlet Women!?...It was through this very mode of understanding the dynamics of the mysteries, by which Liber AL, and other mystical texts have arisen for the benefit of humanity. It is through the help of the Greek Mysteries by which that spark of genius can make contact with forces from outside the mundane sphere, referred by Theosophists as the Akashic Records.

The Man-Gods, the Genius or (Daemon), the Nymphs, Gorgons, the Titans (Chaos in its ultimate form), the Gods, the Muses etc...all these fetishes, creatures, halfman, halfbeasts etc etc. were atavistic!, and they acted as pivots for the aspirant to access to magickal realms. They personified the Gulf between Chaos and Order with their very mythology. On top of that, their totems were not singular, or pure forms! they were pluralistic in essence, and their forms and meanings shafeshifted i.e. The rites of Dionysis and Apollo were contrasting rites, but they were in loop, they were a dual monad, like the Tao, and they represented 'exoterically' the undulation of Magickal Force in the human experience. How much more atavistic can you get?! Look at Pan!

If there was no Greek Mythology, there would be no MAGICK today, and Crowley would have been redundant... We must also appreciate, that where did these ideas come from? There were many cultures living at the same time, and it is speculative as to which civilisation is older, Greek/Egyptian - So, the Greeks, Egyptians and Hindus all fed off each other....(Atlantis comes to mind). Ultimately, as we can see, the exoteric garment of the Great Secret and Magickal Power, and the ability to tap into the current of Daemonic Genius varies, its representation is coloured by the consciousness/culture/landscape of the people it is filtered through.

Best Wishes
...and keep up THE GREAT WORK

Charles


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 Anonymous
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BTW I am extremely biased..because I am Greek! Lol!

Best Wishes

Charles


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daopig
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Beautiful post, Charles. The baton that gives us magick was certainly refined in Greece then. Physically (as above so below) is reflected in the different building materials, also : Egyptian sandstone, Greek 'cooked' sand or marble. It looks, speculatively, to me that Egypt was at the end of a large cycle of self discovery and output whilst Greece was the new and eager kid. Only to willing to take this wisdom and apply it. Like you say, the outside form of the body of the school matters far less than the genuine results of its application. Success being the only important proof. No doubt a great gift was bestowed upon the Greeks and they watered their gardens with as much of the good stuff as Alexander could carry back. I imagine then that the Father Culture in the desert sands then began its toppling over and its abandonment of heavier, more inertia-filled ways that were unable to 'cut it' in the more racier times that they eventually began to witness. I am interested in knowing how many Egyptian families relocated to Greece and whether there are any accounts of their assimilation into the modern world of that time.


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 Anonymous
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Allllllllll right. I should have seen this coming you Rotter. :::pushing sleeves up::: It's ON! 😈

(45 minutes later) :::blink blink:::

Alright, it's not on. You win. I guess I better start out this way instead:

My Dearest Charles,

You're post was brillant, infact I think it did such justice to our Greek magickal heritage that you should be commemorated on one of that nation's postal stamps! Is this a good start? LOL.

I think what I was trying to express was an understanding of the atavistic godforms in a more primal or even tribal shamanic context. For example (and shifting cultures for just a few seconds), Native American religions (and Magick) don't seem to have much connected to a Greek influence and yet evoke a very strong intuitive atavistic practice. My perception of the Greeks has perhaps been in contrast to the "shamanic" because of their technological sophistication (thanks, history channel). You are absolutely right in taking a more broad and all encompassing view of greek magick and pointing out some elements which should have been obvious to me.

I'll do a little more study. Promise! 😳

But don't you think its pretty far-fetched to state that:

If there was no Greek Mythology, there would be no MAGICK today,

even if you ARE Greek! 😉 After all, both the magickal urge and the current itself well up from the depths of the soul and will create their own forms of manifestation. If all of our history was wiped out, the current would still be here and create a new culture which, although perhaps touching on these same ideas and energies, would take on a very unique form, a new mythology. And perhaps the evolution of the current would throw new twists into this mythology. I see our "modern" Thelemic Egyptology as being an example of this. We make reference to a huge historical culture but are we simply reviving it or taking it into new territory as modern and western people?

93
Agape!
Kym


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 Anonymous
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so how could you suggest that the Greek Cosmogony or their mysteries are? How can you say that they dont represent the Hermetic (Hermes-Greek!) axiom 'As above, so below'.

And.. I wasn't really suggesting they were unbalanced, atleast thats not what I was thinking when I wrote that. All I was trying to do was present a different angle, one which contrasted the more overt (or well known in representation) expression of atavistic godforms of Egypt with the more human idealism i've observed in greek art such as the numerous sculptures of gods and goddesses who take a particularly human form. Again, this may be a case of me needing to look further into the art of greek culture more, I'm sure, but I wasn't trying to suggest an inbalance. I'm not qualified to do so which is quite obvious.

Okay, this is all the back paddling I can do tonight. 😯 LOL.

Warm Best wishes to you Charles!
Agape!
Kym


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kidneyhawk
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Regarding the "informing" of Modern Magick from the Greco-Current, it is certainly undeniable on the historic flow-chart, however the predecessors to the Greeks would certainly have lent their influence ELSEWHERE had this line of "passing" not been open. SO-! Returning to Egypt, then, what was the informant thereof? (Yes, Charles, I'm thinking the Afro-Atlantean). With my previous reference to Lovecraft, I've clearly veered into some highly speculative realms and some which I would guess the more hard and fast "fact gatherer" would be prone to dismiss ("He's talking about monsters under the earth! Good Lord!") but I must also think of how the "inherited" Magickal Traditions and Methods of Egypt functioned and evolved within that culture. The Egyptians were working Magicians whose historic landmarks obviously point at a much larger agenda than the concerns of day to day life. Both the "Cthonic" and "Stellarian" were addressed in their monuments and these forces would seem to be linked, the depths of earth and the depths of space. A grand fiction can be easily drawn from this but I'm inquiring into the way the Illumination of any such fiction may be manifest in remnants of that civilization. My first encounters with Egypt as a child left me with an impression of a "primitve people" who did some exotic things with art, the Pyramids seeming very simple in their "basic" structure compared to our modern edifices. My little child's brain had no grasp (until later!) of the baffling sophistication of Egypt's astronomy and physics. Suddenly the ancient and "superstitious" rites of these (ahem) "primitve" people took on a new Light. Organs in canopic jars could only be the actions of an unscientific folk, right? But if the Magi of Egypt were so advanced, so adept, then the dry-speak of historians saying "they believed..." is shadowed over by the re-surge of a buried culture in Thelema which is on the cutting edge of science. Many Thelemites with whom I've communicated are very brilliant historians and thinkers and yet balance a sharp, critical eye with that "Inner Eye" and actual Mystic Experience of the Gnosis...a blend of Dionysian and Apollonian in the Aim of Religion and Method of Science.

It's that Gnosis of Egypt and its reach for the Cosmos, the Great Work as manifest in this PLACE, that is especially compelling. Atlantis was (whether regarded historically or mythologically) a superior and advanced society which went the route of Ozymandias. The devastations of the Dynasties parallels the Atlantean Collapse. But Atlantis haunts our Magicks as does Egypt. I'm thinking that pulse of Thelema in the Neo-Crowley OTO manifestation may very well BE the continuance of the Current of Egypt. This is a broad term-we've seen how polytheism was replaced with monotheism and so on. Could it be that what was emerging was "Aquarian," (or Beyond) and frustrated by the constraints of what the human race as a whole was able to deal with and receive at the time? And if there aren't "monsters under the sand" then perhaps it was the set up of a vast empire as a vehicle of contact and ingress which happened in that locale and it is no longer a centralized power zone for the reason of its dissolution (and yet still the initial point of ingress holds force in its remains?)


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wulfram
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In regard to this talk of archaelogical connections, I thought some of you might find this interesting:

http://guardians.net/hawass/osiris1.htm


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wulfram
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Something else to chew on:

It was at Heliopolis that the "Shemsu Hor" - "The Followers of Horus" - kept the knowledge of the ancient Egyptian astronomical religion alive for thousands of years. This ancient priesthood, some believe, had lived in Heliopolis for thousands of years before even the beginning of the historic period in Egypt. There they carefully guided the local population, teaching them the arts of astronomy, mathematics, agriculture, and especially architecture, in order to ensure that the ancient astronomical knowledge would continue. The end result of their efforts were what we now know as the pyramids and Sphinx - hieroglyphics in the form of architecture, the ancient astronomical knowledge frozen in stone.

There is significant evidence to support this theory, that ancient Egyptian civilization did not evolve, but appeared in completed form at its inception. As John Anthony West explains,

Every aspect of Egyptian knowledge seems to have been complete at the very beginning. The sciences, artistic and architectural techniques and the hieroglyphic system show virtually no signs of a period of 'development'; indeed, many of the achievements of the earliest dynasties were never surpassed or even equalled later on. This astonishing fact is readily admitted by orthodox Egyptologists, but the magnitude of the mystery it poses is skillfully understated, while its many implications go unmentioned.

One primary source of information regarding the ancient history of Egypt, the "Turin Papyrus", contains a chronology of the predynastic period in Egypt. What is strange about this list is the mention of the reigns of ten Neteru, or "gods", who reigned for hundreds of years each, for a total of 23,200 years. After this comes a list dedicated to the Shemsu Hor, the Followers of Horus, who reigned a total of 13,400 years. The papyrus then goes on to list the historical kings, those that are commonly accepted as real by mainline archaeology.

Another primary source for Egyptian history, Manetho's History of Egypt, was written in the third century b.c. Manetho, the high priest of Heliopolis at that time, wrote History of Egypt in order to preserve the fast-disappearing Egyptian traditions and culture. Later commentators tell us that it had been divided into three volumes: I. The Gods, II. The Demigods, and III. The Spirits of the Dead and the Mortal Kings. Though the third volume has been used by Egyptologists as the standard reference for the 31 dynasties of Egypt, for some reason the first two volumes have been relegated to the realm of myth and legend.

However, that is not how the ancient Egyptians viewed the Neteru and their descendants, the Shemsu Hor. These beings were believed to be actual historical personages, who formed a formidable prehistory of which we know litte. As Graham Hancock explains in The Message of the Sphinx, "the 'Followers of Horus' may not have been 'kings' in the usual sense of the word, but rather as immensely powerful and enlightened individuals - high initiates who were carefully selected by an elite academy that established itself at the sacred site of Heliopolis-Giza thousands of years before history began."


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 Anonymous
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Hi Wulfram.
Just a question here. If the Shemsu Hor are to be credited with the evolution of the Egyptian dynasties , why were all the early kingships in Egypt the followers of Set/Sutekh? And why did they give has much reverence to Set along with Horus?


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wulfram
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Politics? Not to mention there was a fair amount of syncrtism prevalent throughout the theocracy... Symbolism at the root, and the Set motif was one that commanded both fear and power, but one doesn't have to look far to see the ebb and shift within the figurehead over the course of time...

~BF/W


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 Anonymous
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Hi Wulfram.
Since i am not political i wouldnt be able to equate the debate on that level.With regard to the Followers of Horus list which lists all the dynasties for 13400 years should be taken with a pinch of salt. The removal of kings from history was prevalent , and historical revisionism was common place. So i dont buy this Followers of Horus argument.

To put this in context of Aiwass/Set/Crowley/Thelema continuing an ancient tradition,if we take a trip back say3500-3300BC in Naqada II(Upper Egypt) there has been archaeological evidence of the worship of Set. Now from the excavation of gravesites there , there is evidence of ruling class/elite involved in the lineage of Set, not Horus.(Abydos).

So i would put forward the argument that what Aiwass was conveying to Crowley can be traced back to this lineage , and possibly pre-Naqada.......


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amadan-De
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Wow!
Can, Worms.

Unfortunately I don't have time to really get into all this in the depth it deserves and wont for a while either (by which time this will all have moved on...) so I'll restrict myself to lobbing a handful of cherry-bombs randomly and running 😀

Declaration of interest: I am an archaeologist, among other things, though not an Egyptologist, for what it is worth. (Sorry kidneyhawk I am not allowed to talk about the whips and the fedora is a total red herring - also Indy never drank enough to be a real archeaologist. 😆 ) I am also not free from Egyptian God influence - my wife has been 'working' with Anubis since she was about 7 (loooong story) so I'm hardly likely to diss them am I?

papanick: "The easily recognisable animal aspect is missing from most other pantheons"...???
I was going to say that Christian Mythology is the only one I could think of without any animal attributes but then I remembered all those angels with their wings. There are therioforms and therianths all over the place; Ganesh, the 'Birdman' on Easter island, various Bon divinities co-opted into Tibetan buddhism, dog and cat headed people in Celtic myth, Quetzalcoatl, Kwakiutl myth, Aboriginal myth.... Not to mention that the Egyptian's representations are very often not consistent and can frequently only be identified with sureness by reference to the heiroglyphics labelling them. Plastic Divinity - we like.

magispeigel: The Greeks never made mistakes??? Either you are joking or you are so extremely nationalistic you have become blinded by staring at the Light too long. In the latter case I can only refer you to that immortal line of the Residents "Ignorance of your culture is considered uncool" 😉
Archaic Greece was not a monolithic culture by any stretch of the imagination - Sparta/Athens yes they certainly were similar in attitude and outlook? All those different schools of philosophy were all saying the same things? Greece produced many fine thinkers other than Plato and the Neoplatonic and they had various opinions that were sometimes contradictory. As for how they misread Egyptian thought you might want to look at the start of 'The Egyptian Hermes: a historical approach to the late pagan mind' by Garth Fowden (Princeton Mythos series) as one jumping off point I can think of.
Also - "If there was no Greek Mythology, there would be no MAGICK today,.." 😆
If there was no Cretan mythology there would be no Greek mythology! You do know where Zeus (original name Zefs) was born don't you? 😆 (You will of course deny this 😉 )
As to which is older Greek or Egyptian culture - which Greek or Egyptian culture? It is not like flicking a switch 'culture on', flick 'culture off' (ruling dynasties etc. are different, we are talking about culture) Culture is something that evolves and may be dramatically different to outside observers at different times without its participants seeing any distinction - especially one as long lived as 'Egyptian' whose roots seem to get older every year.

kidneyhawk: "Are there any movements (digs?) currently underway which are looking towards even greater unveiling of the earth in anticipation of discovering a new (or old!) level of Egyptian Magick hitherto unaccessed?"
Uh, good archaeology looks to see what can be found and then reads it. Looking to see if you can find X will guarantee that you do find X which is not the same as saying that it was already there. 'What the thinker thinks the prover proves' etc. It is actually an interesting problem that many people find quite difficult; yes you will of course have your pet theories etc. but they have no place in the field - you have to try and come at the material 'fresh' and open to finding something that will either confirm the long standing concensus or completely over turn it with absolutely no personal preference either way. Obviously this is an ideal and not everyone acheives it 🙂 but if the raw data is recorded accurately it is possible - desirable - to try as many reading as you can to find the best fit (which may be proved wrong next week). If you like paradigm shifting rapidly it is great fun.
Wasn't "Imprisoned with the Pharoahs" originally touted as by Houdini himself (ghost written by Lovecraft)? Never thought it one of HPLs best to be honest. (Brief digression - I dug for a while on Gibraltar (hunting Neanderthals) and one of the caves we were investigating had been used later by the Phoenecians to leave offerings of Egyptian faience scarabs to Dagon before leaving the Mediterranean, marvelous 'vibe' 🙂 )
With regard to the 'forepaw stirring' - could not that self-same forepaw have insured that AC was primed with Egyptian referenced ritual years before the transmission? These things do not think or operate in human scale time (6 years before would be pretty swift by some standards).
Afro-Atlantean? - you think Egypt was founded by Therans with big hair 😯

wulfram and hawthornrussell: (sorry to lump guys but this has already taken more than I can spare). At the same time as the Naqada II evidence for worship of Set you get evidence elsewhere for worship of Min. How do we 5000+ years later decide which was locally or generally more important? (and why should the Gods that we are intersted in be the ones they were? Who may we have overlooked?) Hancock is presenting an idea that Heliopolis was the centre for all Egypt but I've got a bunch of pissed of Thebans here who reckon they were top city. One thing I have learned from 25 years (! damn that's alarming!) of archaeology is that the closer in you get the more complex the design that unfolds (think fractals) - it is always more complicated, especially when you start thinking in terms of individual human experience. (Scary fact - average life expectancy in Pharoanic Egypt was about 4 years. Living in a place/time where getting to 5 means you have bucked the odds would have a profound impact on how you related to the world don't you think? Let alone how you thought about children....)

To get back to the REAL thread here and adonia444's question. I would say that Egypt and all that it brings has to be important to Thelema precisely because it is the source of much of the symbolism. Further all the other systems and paradigms that the wideranging mind of AC included in his synthesis should also be important and studied. And by studied I do mean to imply really studied - 'Method of Science' remember? AC looked forward as well as back surely any Thelemite should also. By which I mean looking at current academic theory and stuff that challenges the comfort zone. AC was reading Freud and Einstein well before they became 'pop' culture icons - who would he be reading now? And how can the expansion of knowledge even when it overturns dearly held beliefs be anything other than progress? (New Testament 666=616 anyone? But that is definately a different thread)

Does this thread really still belong in 'Biography'?

OK Pigeons, check. Cat, check. Let's go! 😆 (thanks to Big Black)

Ye Gods and Little Fishes - I just posted this and frankly I am running away now! Huge!! Sorry 🙁


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 Anonymous
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Hi Amadan-de

Welcome back! I am very honoured to meet an archaeologist! and I enjoyed your post very much...

It was one of my wishes to become an Archaeologist. I remember being 6 or 7yrs old, and in junior school, we were asked what we would like to be when we were older...and I wanted to be an 'Archaeologist!' I used to draw the egyptian gods all the time, and parrots (very mercurial?!) to make up for my short comings in maths!!

...in the end, I settled as an Osteopath and Acupuncturist (which kind of reconciled my great passion for the mysteries, and the exploration of other things of an occult nature). I think what you do is amazing!

I missed the boat (or the dig!)...but hey! thats life!

Best Wishes

Charles

P.S. I would like to hear your thoughts on 'Iamblicus On the Mysteries of the Egyptians, Chaldeans ans Assyrians' Translated from the Greek by Thomas Taylor...


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kidneyhawk
(@kidneyhawk)
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LOL-! Well, it appears that you DO own a WHIP! And is this perhaps the first time the Residents have been quoted on Lashtal? (If you can't have the Eye in the Triangle at least get one under a Black Top Hat!)

Your comments regarding the entering into a dig without anticipation of X result reminds me very much of the sane approach to Magick and reminds me of Enigma 23...once you start, you'll find the 23's EVERYWHERE and SWEAR Burroughs was onto something-! But who pursues Enigma 14 or 27 or 36? When I inquired into archaeological pursuit of a "deeper level" of Egypt, it was (and is) both a wondering as to the points where myth (that is to say, Living Myth) and history meet which I personally think is a worthwhile pursuit (i.e. having mentioned Atlantis, it's surely worth my interest to see where the Legends may surface in "evidence." Of course, such energy currents may also be quite valid yet beyond "excavation," existing in a more subtle yet none the less potent form, such as the buried treasures of Tibet, some of which are potted in the earth and some of which have been encoded in human brains! Kenneth Grant writes of the multiplicity of Grimoires, some of which are only Stellar fragements imbedded in the aura of the planet and waiting to be read in whole or in part by those who have sufficiently developed the faculties to do so-but here "psychic archaeology" comes into play and I'm well tottering on the far fringe of the initial inquiry-but as I tried to express in a previous post, there is a point where all the tangible things which have been brought to light point at work with "intangible" forces-the actual MAGICK of Egypt-and whether that surged up from the dark soil beneath Cairo or downloaded into AC's brain from his GD days, choosing to "come up" amongst the scenary, the basis of AL is the presupposition that it manifested in line with a/the Current, proven by one's own experience with it, something whose expression is the only "evidence" one will have)

And yet-the whole of Egyptian art, sculpture, rites etc was an expression (in part, anyhow) of a Magick which I think requires examination from both ends (the psychic and the historic, spiritual and physical) if we are to claim it has a direct connection to the symbology in which "modern" Thelema arrived.

As I clearly veer towards the more subjective end of things, I hope you'll be back for a little more discussion here-if this thread "moves on," I'm hoping it's to further development of the discussion. I'm already learning and liking it a LOT!

93!

Kyle


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Proteus
(@proteus)
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

Rewinding back to Kym's original comment...

I'm obviously well aware of the importance of the symbolism of the pantheon in expressing the current both in The Book Of the Law and subsequent thelemic ritual. But beyond the symbolism how do people see Egypt relating to thelema as more than a historical point of interest?

The Egyptian mythos dominates my personal practice in many ways as I have previously stated. However, I understand that it is simply a convenient framework to describe universal truths that transcend cultures and geography.

From the Intro to Liber AL (emphasis added):
This Book explains the Universe.
The elements are Nuit -Space- that is, the total of possibilities of every kind and Hadit, any point which has experience of these possibilities. (This idea is for literary convenience symbolized by the Egyptian Goddess Nuit, a woman bending over like the Arch of the Night Sky. Hadit is expressed as a Winged Globe at the heart of Nuit.)

The correspondence of the various mythos is fundamental to ritual design (777). Does your Hathor invocation not invoke Aphrodite, Freya, and Lalita?

John ...the actual differences of our observation are negligible.

Love is the law, love under will.


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 Anonymous
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"Proteus" wrote:
John ...the actual differences of our observation are negligible.

Precisely...especially so, when discussing MAGICK...

Ponder this - Ultimately, all this 'junk' has to be used by the aspirant for... MAGICK....then, this 'junk' is thrown in the air and disregarded - I have always been intrigued by the touching accuracy of this card - The MAGUS, Atu I, Frieda Harris, Thoth Deck. The Magician no longer needs his tools!

The big question is, does your MAGICK WORK FOR YOU? ...are the tools you are using working? one must make sure that they are not just some enigmatic 'glamour'? revealing a conundrum of endless shortcomings....

Best Wishes

Charles


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daopig
(@daopig)
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I should take you last two up on a few things. My stomach tells me that there is a twee(??!) creeping in which could dry up the thread.

We should be grateful to one or two Egyptian magicians who took the trouble to inspire/order or even create lasting works of art. Without these, there would be no ancient inspiration. This Egyptian 'junk' would be far less evocative and therefore less useful to us today.

Perhaps a great magician is not somebody who can discover an effective system and then dispense with 'paraphernalia', and call himself content - in an Eastern sense. This would be selfish and ultimately not contributing to any current, the Law is Love.

Without a current (hate that word for its over-use) then I for one would have suffered immensely on this hellish crust. And though you two haven't said it as far as I know, I have heard too much talk such as: 'if it is your destiny then ye shall find the right place' kind of clap trap. Take another look at YouTube Fat Lady falling down that hole. That kind of mucky thinking might be why tramps get kicked on a regular basis.

The progress of Man depends on the light of individuals. More, they ought to be alive and kicking. Though they may well only inspire others after they have given up their ghost this should not prevent one or two from making MAGICK work for OTHERS and this might mean the fabrication of mere trash or objects 😉


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wulfram
(@wulfram)
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...

thread drift righted, and I'm still afloat. Post duely excised.


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 Anonymous
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I like the Ogdoad a lot. Thebes and the triad of Amoun, Mut, and Khonsu. These seem the most pure towards Thelema. Pure as in unity of purpose.

I wouldn't get too caught up in wondering if Thelema is inherently 'Egyptological'. All true gods are attributed to the triad. Just depends on which plane you will to work.


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 Anonymous
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As for myself I DO feel strongly that Egypt is a power zone for the Aeon, even today. There are many passages in Grant including the book Kyle quoted from which indicate forces beneath the geographic surface of Egypt still looking to emerge

"

I would also strongly agree. The more competent occultists/ameteur archeologists keep tabs on "the experts", the more the influence of this civilization becomes apparent. The engineering tolerances and precision in Egypt's monuments (and others, like Stonehenge) lends credence (least in the realm of possibility) of a lost "Typhonian Tradition", a state of being only approached in rare individuals since.

It is unfortunate that the only two prominently available schools of interpretation are:

a) The (un)scientists that study Egyptology as simply a "quaint" historical curiosity with little regard to it's possible ramifications.

b) The Alien Ant Farm wackos who, logically, are dissillusioned with viewpoint "a", and jump to radically inconsistant and illogical explanations.
The problem with the very existance of this "school" of interpretation is that any viewpoint that challenges the status quo gets lumped in with the likes of von Daniken, making it difficult to get taken seriously by those who simply want to know.

Our current level of resources directed towards archeological excavations of civilizations such as Egypt and Sumeria is significant, but I personally feel that their direction and interpretation is fruitless. What we, the occultists of the world, are restricted to is making an interpretation of the interpreters, trying to read between the lines and something more than a "textbook" understanding of this material.

We are connected more than ever before, and what I would like to see from the occult communities and various "Orders" is some kind of concerted effort to get proper access to the primary sources. Obviously the best situation would be to groom a few Thelemites into Egyptological positions, meaning perhaps that alternate translations closer to the spirit of the words. This might be unfeasable for the current generation, but for those Thelemites still in high-school this is a fabulous option. I am certain that the world-wide occult community would be extremely grateful, I know I would.


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Frater_HPK
(@frater_hpk)
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"papanick" wrote:
Adonia,

I'm not an Egyptologist so I await the responses of others more learned to your questions. But your topic brings to my mind this question, if I can be forgiven for piggybacking a little: if the Prophet had been in Greece at the time of Contact, would the pantheon of AL be expressed as Greek gods? If in Italy, as Roman gods? In Haiti as the Voodoo pantheon? Nuit, Hadit, Ra-Hoor-Khuit seem perfectly suited to expressing the deeper cosmology of the Book, but I wonder if other pantheons might have worked just as well if the Book had been received under different circumstances.

nick

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

Maybe Egyptian Gods were logical transmitters of the new Law. Liber L vel Legis can't be understood without knowledge of Golden Dawn. That is just my current opinion. Egyptian deities were important part of the Golden Dawn. In one of the Flying Rolls Florence farr wrotte:
_____________________________________________________________
The old beauty is no longer beautiful; the new truth is no longer true,' is
the eternal cry of a developing and really vitalised life. Our civilisation has
passed through the First Empire of pagan sensualism; and the Second Empire of mistaken sacrifice, of giving up our own consciousness, our own power of judging, our own independence, our own courage. And the Third Empire is awaiting those of us who can see that not only in Olympus, not only nailed to the Cross, but in ourselves is God. For such of us, the bridge between flesh and spirit is built; for such among us hold the Keys of life and death.
_____________________________________________________________

In this sense she first announced Third Empire (New Aeon). She first, not Crowley. Just to be correct that is not my idea. I read this on the Open Source Order of the Golden Dawn site.

Love is the law, love under will.

B.


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kidneyhawk
(@kidneyhawk)
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Frater HPK-!

I really enjoy your posts and you have the great skill of delivering the goods with just a few lines!

We are all familiar with how the Templars were betrayed and "rounded up," and then come all the theories as to how the survivors went underground and eventually Order-hopped their way into Freemasonry, the OTO etc. Claims thus arise that the Templars never really died and their grand secrets are still to be found by the Pilgrim after Truth.

I think we may have something similar with the Gods of Egypt. It is quite possible and likely, I think, that the presence of these God-Forms in the Magick that is occuring daily in OTO-related circles is an energy whereby these Gods not only continue to live but have grown in dimension! The rather Elitist Priesthood which dealt with them in Ancient Times still reamins "Elite." But not favoring the elitism of birth status, social position etc. The "Few & The Secret" become so as they are drawn by the Spirit to the Mysteries and forge their own link, which may connect into a given Order-or not. But whereas the general public views Egyptian Magick as something which perished long ago, it is, in fact a GLOBAL Phenomena now...

This also makes me think of Informutations great post regarding the importance of considering and researching and basically "looking back" without implying that we'll turn into a Pillar of Salt in the Process. "Looking back" was one of those things the Big J forbade and as the Law of Sin is Restriction, there is not only a freedom to do so, but a great creative potential in such research work, in that it is an act of the "Going of the Now" and comes ALIVE in the now, fueling the Old Gods, working with them as New and Channeling the 3rd, 4th and 5th Empires-ad infinitum!

93-!

Kyle


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amadan-De
(@amadan-de)
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Posts: 686
 

Greetings (brief return).

Came across this referenced while looking for something else and feel it may be of interest and belongs in this thread.
'The Greek Magical papyri in translation, including the Demotic spells', ed. Hans Dieter Betz, University of Chicago press. Magical materials from the 2nd cent. BC - 5th cent AD, including various Greco-Roman, Egyptian syncretisms etc. Also apparently the original protective invocation to Set that was later 'reborn' as the Invocation to the Bornless one. That I have to see.

Brief pickup on kidneyhawk's post above - (Hi) - In your comparison of the Egyptian Gods with the Templars re 'going underground', are you refering to the Gods as symbols or as independent intelligences? Totally second the suggestion of 'looking back' and research as vital (but I would say that 🙂 ). What makes you think the Egyptian priesthood was elitist? Having 'God Incarnate' as the visible physical ruler of your country and having him incarnate in you on a nearly daily basis during temple practice would probably help create that impression. (You never see Egyptian art of priests performing ritual because 'they' didn't, it was always Pharoah manifesting through them actually doing it.)
I have some nice notes on this stuff somewhere I can try and find them and do a precis here if people want.
(PS. kidneyhawk -It's not the whip you have to watch with archaeologists it's the trowel! 😆 )
More later.


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kidneyhawk
(@kidneyhawk)
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Amadan-De,

Sorry your post got buried for a bit but I suppose it'll gratify an archaeological bone or two to dig it back up!

Regarding:

the original protective invocation to Set that was later 'reborn' as the Invocation to the Bornless one

Were you ever able to procure this book and compare the two? I agree that it will make for intriguing reading, regardless!

You asked:

are you refering to the Gods as symbols or as independent intelligences?

I think perhaps a bit of BOTH, perhaps as "sentient symbols" which manifest a Current of Cthonic/Stellarian Meld. Basically, there are powers and forces and intelligences which are not dependent on physical form to exist, although they are capable of ingress and manifestation by means of physical vehicles. If an Individual, Magickal Power Cell, Order or Society becomes a squelched conduit for this energy, it may disconnect from its vehicle and "reappear" to manifest under other sympathetic but perhaps highly diverse conditions. It was in this sense that I was considering the Egyptian God Forms and their activity within human consciousness today, divorced from the historical settings which evoked their forms. That the Gods of Egypt evolved within the populace at the time indicates a likelihood of continued evolution in the modern or present era, both wearing the old forms and taking upon new guises as well.

The allusion made to the

elitist

nature of the Priesthood was made with reference to the cultural "caste" system, if you will. The Hierarchical chain certainly functioned differently at the lower end of the totem pole amongst those outside of the priesthood, the "commoners." The points of contact with the Gods however may be manifest in very strange and secret settings today-an efficiency apartment may function as a Temple wherein the full force of awesome godforms manifest, for the forces contacted in very specialized settings have been "loosed" upon earth and the gates to their being lie outside of time-space constraints.

This is where the "measurable" aspect of our occult research meets the realities which cannot be quantified by linear methods. I see the "look back" as a present time action which is of immense value to the present time experience. Otherwise we have dry data being stored in a computer for recall but no present day application (Pedantry vs. Prophecy).

From the daily experience and practices of a "beginner" who might be learning a basic ritual to whatever we might evaluate as "advanced," I see Magick always at the point between Nagual and Tonal. If acquisition of historic information doesn't move that space and widen into the Nagual, it's just fodder to sustain the patterns of the Tonal. How it morphs as it cuts a wake into the Nagual is only for us to tesify to (and express) as we experience it.

More later

Bring the Trowel! 😆

93, A-D!

Kyle


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wellreadwellbred
(@wellreadwellbred)
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papanick: "... if the Prophet had been in Greece at the time of Contact, would the pantheon of AL be expressed as Greek gods? If in Italy, as Roman gods? In Haiti as the Voodoo pantheon? Nuit, Hadit, Ra-Hoor-Khuit seem perfectly suited to expressing the deeper cosmology of the Book, but I wonder if other pantheons might have worked just as well if the Book had been received under different circumstances."

Crowley did already in 1900 (in what later became The Cry of the 30th Æthyr in his book The Vision and the Voice) write: "I AM in a vast crystal cube in the form of the Great God Harpocrates. This cube is surrounded by a sphere [2]."

The just quoted words are reflected by these words used by Crowley in his The Book of the Law (II:7.), supposedly written in 1904; "
I am the Magician and the Exorcist. I am the axle of the wheel, and the cube in the circle. “Come unto me” is a foolish word: for it is I that go."

And also already in 1900 (in what later beacame The Cry of the 29th Aethyr in his book The Vision and the Voice) write: When will men learn the Mysteries of Creation? How much more those of the Dissolution (and the Pang of Fire)?"

The just quoted questions are answered by these words used by Crowley in his The Book of the Law (I:30., II:6., II:21, II:22. and II:44.), supposedly written in 1904; "I:30. This is the creation of the world, that the pain of division is as nothing, and the joy of dissolution all.", "II:6. "I am the flame that burns in every heart of man, and in the core of every star. I am Life, and the giver of Life, yet therefore is the knowledge of me the knowledge of death.", II:21. "... Think not, o king, upon that lie: That Thou Must Die: verily thou shalt not die, but live. Now let it be understood: If the body of the King dissolve, he shall remain in pure ecstasy for ever. ...", II:22. "I am the Snake that giveth Knowledge & Delight and bright glory, and stir the hearts of men with drunkenness. ...", and "II:44. Aye! feast! rejoice! there is no dread hereafter. There is the dissolution, and eternal ecstasy ...".

Crowley described his The Book of the Law as a message from Hoor-paar-kraat", called Harpocrates in the Greek, a God of Silence, used by Crowley to represent every man's and every woman's 'Secret Self', or 'Silent Self' or 'Holy Guardian Angel', and true Understanding of this Silent Self was to Crowley the Universal Key to every Mystery of Magick and Mysticism.

So yes, the pantheon of The Book of the Law could be expressed as Greek gods, as long as Crowley could find Greek gods befitting the nature of the "gods" used by Crowley within his The Book of the Law supposedly written in 1904, and described in that book (III:17.): "... Nu is your refuge as Hadit your light; and I am the strength, force, vigour, of your arms."


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Shiva
(@shiva)
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wr: ... and true Understanding of this Silent Self was to Crowley the Universal Key to every Mystery of Magick and Mysticism.

I would agree with AC on that. Do you have some reference where he expresses this concept? Or something essentially the same?

I ask, because elsewhere, and later in life, he more or less proclaimed the Universal Medicine / Elixir of Life the supreme key to the mysteries ... along with the procedure for making it, in which he never seemed to hesitate.

So yes, the [Egyptian] pantheon of The Book of the Law could be expressed as Greek gods ...

Also Hindu, Viking, Roman, etc, as demonstrated in the Tables of Correspondence 777. Different folks have different "pantheons" decorating their interior. English people tend to have their ancestral roots (their lineage) arranged thus:

English > Roman > Greek > Egyptian

Scottish folks are more like ...

Scot > Viking > Norse mythology

(yes there are (Germanic) Anglians, Saxons, and Goths to put into the mix.

The Jewish line goes back : Israel > Egypt > Sumeria. So they don't tend to stop at Egypt for their inner structure.

Don't hold me to these cited divisions with a calculator and history books. I'm just citing theoretical lineages with the point being: Different folks have different interior bases for generating thoughtforms and cultural.

Yes, we can convert and correlate these images with correspondingly similar images in some other culture, but the question was, "What if AC had been [physically] in Greece?" Would AL be populated with Zeus and Mars and Aphrodite?

You, wrwb, have demonstrated that AC already had Egyptian symbology in view before AL came along. Besides, the question is so contingent on "what ifs," that it might not be answerable. Especially since it did take place in Egypt, and there's an Egyptian Stele involved, not a Greek statue.
.


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 Anonymous
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I read recently that osiris is a Greek name.... I believe and Im not solid on that yet but at this moment of study the two interlapped...

the oracle of thebes is a perfect example...

also the moment of pans death heralded the birth of christianity...

plus I doubt that lions were running around in ancient greece but many greek myths speak of them...


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wellreadwellbred
(@wellreadwellbred)
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[Me:] wrwb: "… and true Understanding of this Silent Self was to Crowley the Universal Key to every Mystery of Magick and Mysticism."

Shiva: "I would agree with AC on that. Do you have some reference where he expresses this concept? Or something essentially the same?"

New Comment to: "AL I.2: "The unveiling of the company of heaven{.}": "... this Book is to reveal the Secret Self of a man, i.e. to initiate him."

New Comment to: "AL I.7: "Behold! It is revealed by Aiwass the minister of Hoor-paar-kraat{.}": "Aiwass is then, as this verse 7 states, the "minister" of this Hoor-paar-Kraa, [...] on His appearing, He assumes the active form twin to Harpocrates, that of Ra-Hoor-Khuit. The Concealed Child becomes the Conquering Child, the armed Horus avenging his father Osiris. So also our own Silent Self, helpless and witless, hidden within us, will spring forth, if we have craft to loose him to the Light, spring lustily forward with his cry of Battle, the Word of our True Wills.

This is the Task of the Adept, to have the Knowledge and Conversation of His Holy Guardian Angel, to become aware of his nature and his purpose, fulfilling them."

New Comment to: "AL II.5: "Behold! the rituals of the old time are black. Let the evil ones be cast away; let the good ones be purged by the prophet! Then shall this Knowledge go aright.": "... This "Knowledge" is the initiated Wisdom of this Aeon of Horus."

New Comment to: "AL III.60: "There is no law beyond Do what thou wilt.": "... let him [the student] assume this Law to be the Universal Key to every problem of Life, and then apply it to one particular case after another. As he comes by degrees to understand it, he will be astounded at the simplification of the most obscure questions which it furnishes. Thus he will assimilate the Law, and make it the norm of his conscious being; this by itself will suffice to initiate him, to dissolve his complexes, to unveil himself to himself; and so shall he attain the Knowledge and Conversation of his Holy Guardian Angel.

I have myself practiced constantly to prove the Law by many and divers modes in many and divers spheres of thought, until it has become absolutely fixed in me, so much so that it appears an "identical equation," axiomatic indeed, and yet not a platitude, but a very sword of Truth to sunder every knot at a touch."

New Comment to: "AL III.62: "To Me do ye reverence! to me come ye through tribulation of ordeal, which is bliss.": "... Ra-Hoor-Khuit is in one sense the Silent Self in a man, a Name of his Khabs, not so impersonal as Hadit, but the first and least untrue formulation of the Ego. We are to [...] come to it. This is done ‘through tribulation of ordeal.’ This tribulation is that experienced in the process called Psychoanalysis, now that official science has adopted — so far as its inferior intelligence permits — the methods of the magus. But the ‘ordeal’ is ‘bliss’; the solution of each complex by ‘tribulation’ …is the spasm of joy which is the physiological and psychological accompaniment of any relief from strain and congestion.”


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Shiva
(@shiva)
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m: I read recently that osiris is a Greek name….

This is correct. His Egyptian name was Asar, just like in AL:
"And let Asar be with Isa ..." (Isa is Isis).

wrwb, you have cited many references. I was specifically wondering about the "Key" term, and, yes, you cited it at least once. Now we have 3 "Keys": (1) the secret self, (2) the elixir, (3) the glyph "AL," which was discovered by Achad. I wonder which is the true key that unlocks everything (all seven seals)? Maybe it's a trinity of keys, where three are one (merely being phases of the one key that has not been named?

But then there's this disturbing sentence ...

"I have myself practiced constantly to prove the Law by many and divers modes in many and divers spheres of thought, until it has become absolutely fixed in me, so much so that it appears an “identical equation,” axiomatic indeed, and yet not a platitude, but a very sword of Truth to sunder every knot at a touch.”

In this [^] long line, I first detected the influence of druggery, followed by another big question mark ? ... It seems as if he's saying that he can solve any problem "at a touch." So why did he appear to have so many problems later in life?

Your (wrwb) final quorte above is so deep, internally-counterpoised, and (frankly) interesting, that I am compelled to re-post it, for further consideration:

Ra-Hoor-Khuit is in one sense the Silent Self in a man, a Name of his Khabs, not so impersonal as Hadit, but Ra-Hoor-Khuit is in one sense the Silent Self in a man, a Name of his Khabs, not so impersonal as Hadit, but the first and least untrue formulation of the Ego. We are to […] come to it. This is done ‘through tribulation of ordeal.’ This tribulation is that experienced in the process called Psychoanalysis, now that official science has adopted — so far as its inferior intelligence permits — the methods of the magus. But the ‘ordeal’ is ‘bliss’; the solution of each complex by ‘tribulation’ …is the spasm of joy which is the physiological and psychological accompaniment of any relief from strain and congestion.”

the first and least untrue formulation of the Ego ... This is very interesting. AC suggest that Ra-Hoor, sitting on his throne, can be invoked/identified-with/assumed by the individual. This is supported by Megatron Ashram 1.2, Overlord, who is identified in the video of our current space-timeline as Ra-Hoor-Khuit.

However, it is unlikely that a Tibetan Lama, or a Mongolian Magician, or an Argentine Adept would necessarily be identifying with a falcon-headed dude. It has been my observation of many individuals that not everyone is tied into the AEGYPTIAN PANTHEON. Some people get rendered (go through tribulations) by Hindu or Norse archetypes.

When these diverse symbols are rendered into unification, it's too late to argue one's preference. One has become none and moved up and out of the Seat in the East in order to become the Khabs (Spirit or Star), which Megatron calls 2.1, Star, and it's no coincidence that I am just now beginning the construction of 2.1, Star, the video.

This tribulation is that experienced in the process called Psychoanalysis ... The tribulation, the ordeal, is not pleasant. Sometimes, especially earlier in the game, the tribulations are actual physical-plane ordeals. For some reason (or non-reason), these things often appear to be disastrous or disordered, epic, heroic struggles up mountains or through crocodile-infested swamps. Anyway, it's unpleasant. The "bliss" only occurs AFTER the ordeal has been run out. The ordeal itself is not bliss, the culmination is.


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ignant666
(@ignant666)
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Re whether ordeals are bliss, or result in bliss: A quote i picked up i know not whence (quite possibly AC)- "Hardship is adventure poorly understood".

"Or" as a matter of logic includes "and"- both can be true, and are, from the correct point of view.


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soz
 soz
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Shiva: “And let Asar be with Isa …” (Isa is Isis).

I thought that Isa is Jesus (Isa is the Arabic word meaning "Jesus"), and the Egyptian word for Isis is "Asi". Liber AL I:49 gives "... and let Asar be with Isa, who also are one. But they are not of me. Let Asar be the adorant, Isa, the sufferer; Hoor in his secret name and splendor is the Lord initiating."

So Asar (Osiris) is with Isa (Jesus), and they are one, in their role as Old Aeon "dying gods".

And in one of the commentaries to verse I:49 AC has "This verse declares that the old formula of Magick - the Osiris-Adonis-Jesus-Marsyas-Dionysus-Attis-et cetera formula of the Dying God - is no longer efficacious. It rested on the ignorant belief that the Sun died every day, and every year, and that its resurrection was a miracle."

I don't remember where I've seen the word "Asi" used to mean "Isis" -- perhaps it is in the Golden Dawn material.


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Tiger
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“Gnostic scriptures it is Jesus telling his apostles to spread the news of the Goddess.This actually occurs at the Vernal Equinox with Spica rising 29 degrees Virgo around 500 BCE and probably denotes the birth of Dionysus whom seemingly incarnates as Apollon of Tyana at around the time of ‘Jesus’. “

“Spica rises in Virgo at the Autumnal Equinox; 100 BCE and denotes the birth of Caesar. Regulus enters Leo fifty years earlier on the Winter Solstice. The Autumnal Equinox of 70ev finds Spica rising in Virgo with the Sun and marks the year Jerusalem is destroyed. Again, this is a symbol of Babalon astride the Beast and could be said to be showing here a revenge of the goddess against a patriarchal culture. And at the Vernal Equinox of 321ev, the Sun recesses to Aries and marks the victory of Constantine and the consolidation of the Roman Heresy. The Roman propaganda machine manages to make the legend of Apollon become forgotten and attributes his works to Jesus with the help of the skillful hand of Iranaeus’ Cardinals. We then have the full re-manifestation of the demiurge and the rise of the Dionysus’ antichrist. This would cost Europe its history and culture and the loss of a thousand years; so that it was the persecuted Jews that actually ended up carrying the torch of the ancient Gnosis.“

pg 26
http://archidox.org/The%20Starry%20Gnosis.pdf

confusing isn't it ?


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Shiva
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Ig: whether ordeals are bliss, or result in bliss

It has never been my experience that a tribulation or an ordeal has been blissful. Upon overcoming some lengthy test of endurance or troubled time, I have experienced mild, fleeting euphoria.

I did experience a sustained, endorphin-fueled, euphoria one time: I had flown down from 7600' up in Colorado (Estes Park) to attend the acupuncture-licensing exam in San Francisco (at sea level). I was carrying a large, heavy duffel bag over my shoulder, and I had to walk to the exam. A long walk. So I started running. The exam site was up those uphill San Fran streets from the airport. I sailed up hill after hill, blissfully enjoying absolutely no lack of air. I was 44 years old. Of course, my lungs were supercharged by the sea level air, having just come from a high altitude, but I never had such an experience before ... or after.

However, that is my experience, my reality, and I understand that there are people who thrive on ordealism. There are actually people who enjoy a physical fist fight, and folks who get off the ground when in war zones. It's a matter of genetic wiring and adrenaline/endorphin rush. There are even people, called sadists, after deSade, who find pleasure in inflicting pain, such as may be discovered in a few lines from AL III, which also features cannibalism. And last of all (not the Key to it All): there are masochists who find pleasure in pain ... such as might be attributed to our hero, AC.

sz: So Asar (Osiris) is with Isa (Jesus), and they are one, in their role as Old Aeon “dying gods”.

Yes, you are correct, especially in terms of AL context. I need to re-assess where I equated Isa with Isis. Asi is another name for Isis. Another needful re-assessment. I looked up the basic definitions, but deep assessment is so burdensome ... I guess I'll just accept the correction. Thanks.

"Isa" is also the Eastern name of Jesus in The Aquarian Gospel of Jesus the Christ.


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