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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
09/09/2008 5:58 pm  

Doe anyone know if the new Jane Wolf book is transcribed or is it just copies of the actualy diaries. Judging from that excerpt on Luli the handwriting is pretty hard to read.

THanks


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
09/09/2008 6:21 pm  
"paperroute50" wrote:
Doe anyone know if the new Jane Wolf book is transcribed or is it just copies of the actualy diaries. Judging from that excerpt on Luli the handwriting is pretty hard to read.

THanks

93

The diaries are presented in facsimile format, not transcribed, to retain the feeling of the original document. *Some* of Crowley's comments are fairly faint, even when you're looking at the original pages. I've adjusted the exposure settings to improve the contrast on such pages. Also, remember that the Lulu previews are not at the same resolution as the pages of the actual book.

93 93/93

David Shoemaker


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 Anonymous
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09/09/2008 7:08 pm  

thanks a lot.


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 Anonymous
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09/09/2008 7:44 pm  

Retain the feeling of the original document my arse. 😯

Sorry if I seem a bit abrupt but this seems like a completely pointless excercise. If the American OTO attempted to palm off some previously unpublished Crowley diaries without transcribing and editing them there would be a riot on the internet.

Why not produce a proper addition of these diaries?


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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09/09/2008 8:03 pm  

By addition I mean edition. My brian dont work like it oozed too 😕


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ianrons
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09/09/2008 10:55 pm  
"nashimiron" wrote:
Sorry if I seem a bit abrupt but this seems like a completely pointless excercise. If the American OTO attempted to palm off some previously unpublished Crowley diaries without transcribing and editing them there would be a riot on the internet.

But serious scholars will appreciate the release of the "unfiltered" documents that will still be available in libraries 50 years from now. Or, at least, I would think so... not being any kind of scholar myself.


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lashtal
(@lashtal)
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09/09/2008 11:59 pm  
"nashimiron" wrote:
seems like a completely pointless excercise (sic.).

The publication of the diaries of one of the most significant early Thelemites, written during the time of one of the most interesting Thelemic social experiments, including the handwritten comments of Aleister Crowley, is now "a completely pointless exercise"?

Unbelievable...

Owner and Editor
LAShTAL


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kidneyhawk
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10/09/2008 12:08 am  

No point speculating as to its content or quality. I just ordered mine and am very much looking forward to reading it, even if its "facsimile" approach induces some squinting!

Hopefully a chunk of us will acquire copies and get to discuss it shortly after a proper perusing!


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kidneyhawk
(@kidneyhawk)
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10/09/2008 12:14 am  

By addition I mean edition. My brian dont work like it oozed too

Paul,

Can we have the "edit" function back now?

Or must we forever hold our piece over grammitical errors?


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ianrons
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10/09/2008 12:32 am  
"lashtal" wrote:
Can we have the "edit" function back now?

Unfortunately the edit function can be used for "thread vandalism". It would be nice if it were possible to edit posts only until the next person has posted, or for -- say -- 90 minutes afterwards; but when people come back weeks later to delete their posts then it's not good. e.g., that guy who was talking about the hieroglyphic spelling of Hadit/Behedite deleted all his posts.


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kidneyhawk
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10/09/2008 12:39 am  

It would be nice if it were possible to edit posts only until the next person has posted, or for -- say -- 90 minutes afterwards

Is it possible to implement something like this? My typical "posting procedure" is writing, hitting send and then rereading it in that somewhat different font. I catch spelling errors etc 50% of the time and go back and "tidy up." It's a nice option, really.

(I know! PREVIEW first!)

Don't mean to sdetrack this thread. I think there's a lot of potential for some good discussion around the topic at hand once our books start rolling in!


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alysa
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10/09/2008 12:40 am  

Seems more than interesting enough for me.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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10/09/2008 12:54 am  

Whilst it's very nice to see these diaries finally see the light of day, I sympathise with Nashimiron's point. Personally I think it would be much nicer to see a fully transcribed edition, with Crowley's notes and marginalia as footnotes, and any drawings added at the relevant points within the body of the text. It would simply be a much easier read, and I'm sure that anybody who has undertaken the arduous task of transcribing Koenig's book will know exactly what I mean. Crowley's handwriting can be hideous at times, and once read and understood generally needs to be written down either on the book itself or in some other form; at least my memory isn't good enough to remember 200+ pages of handwritten notes. It would be a task every time I picked up the book! The quality of facsimile editions of typescripts isn't to my flavour either, but that's a minor point, and others might disagree. Regardless, I'll still be buying the book, but hopefully some of these minor criticisms will be noted if any similar publications are in the works. I can't help thinking that anybody with the material and the rights could bang out a publication like this within a few days and make a quick grand. Beggers can't be chosers, I guess. Looking forward to the read.

9T3


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lashtal
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10/09/2008 1:22 am  
"Nehushtan" wrote:
It would simply be a much easier read, and I'm sure that anybody who has undertaken the arduous task of transcribing Koenig's book will know exactly what I mean. Crowley's handwriting can be hideous at times, and once read and understood generally needs to be written down either on the book itself or in some other form; at least my memory isn't good enough to remember 200+ pages of handwritten notes. It would be a task every time I picked up the book!

He must teach; but he may make severe the ordeals.

😉

Owner and Editor
LAShTAL


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kidneyhawk
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10/09/2008 1:32 am  

"severe" or unclear? 😆


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 Anonymous
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10/09/2008 1:57 am  
"lashtal" wrote:
The publication of the diaries of one of the most significant early Thelemites, written during the time of one of the most interesting Thelemic social experiments, including the handwritten comments of Aleister Crowley, is now "a completely pointless exercise"?

Unbelievable...

I'm well aware of what these diaries represent. Surely such an important publication deserves to have a bit of effort spent on it? The facsimile reproductions would make a very nice companion piece to the properly transcribed and edited book, but they can never be good enough to be considered the best edition.

I think by publishing the diaries in this format they will simply remain an obscure publication that only members of the Thelemic community will own. No-one outside the community will consider buying the book because they will see no reason to give themselves a migraine trying to read it. I would have thought that Jane Wolfe would be quite marketable, so I see this as an opportunity missed.


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lashtal
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10/09/2008 2:05 am  
"nashimiron" wrote:
I'm well aware of what these diaries represent. Surely such an important publication deserves to have a bit of effort spent on it? The facsimile reproductions would make a very nice companion piece to the properly transcribed and edited book, but they can never be good enough to be considered the best edition. I think by publishing the diaries in this format they will simply remain an obscure publication that only members of the Thelemic community will own. No-one outside the community will consider buying the book because they will see no reason to give themselves a migraine trying to read it. I would have thought that Jane Wolfe would be quite marketable, so I see this as an opportunity missed.

Yes, yes... But you described the book as "a completely pointless exercise" - it's to that description that I was referring. An "opportunity missed" is not the same as "a completely pointless exercise..."

Owner and Editor
LAShTAL


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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10/09/2008 3:12 am  

Perhaps we can further discuss this once we have the book in hand?


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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10/09/2008 8:09 am  

93,

Please note that Jane Wolfe's actual diary entries themselves are almost all *typed*. It is Crowley's comments that are handwritten. So, the main issue with legibility (in a few cases, not all by any means) is going to be the comments, not the diary entries themselves. (Wolfe typed up these versions of her handwritten diaries specifically so Crowley could review them.)

I probably should have clarified this point in my original announcement. I apologize for any confusion.

In any case, I really hope you all enjoy reading the diaries. This project was a labor of love. Even if Crowley's comments were completely absent, these diaries would give interesting insights into life at the Abbey, the personalities involved, and the work Crowley was assigning to beginning students at the time.

93 93/93

David Shoemaker


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
10/09/2008 10:34 am  

I've gone ahead and ordered a copy. I look forward to reading and will post comments after doing so. I'm glad this material has been made available.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
10/09/2008 10:35 am  

Looking forward to reading the diaries.
Will be purchasing a copy very soon.
And will bear will AC's handwriting easily;)


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
10/09/2008 1:17 pm  
"lashtal" wrote:
Yes, yes... But you described the book as "a completely pointless exercise" - it's to that description that I was referring. An "opportunity missed" is not the same as "a completely pointless exercise..."

OK maybe completely pointless was a bit strong. But I'm surprised more people are not expressing any dissatisfaction with this. I guess it shows a general lack of interest in these diaries that no-one is really bothered about having a thoroughly edited and well produced copy. I'm sure this edition will look nice on anyones bookshelf but it's just going to be difficult for anyone who might find themselves repeatedly referring to it.


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Patriarch156
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10/09/2008 3:08 pm  
"nashimiron" wrote:
"lashtal" wrote:
Yes, yes... But you described the book as "a completely pointless exercise" - it's to that description that I was referring. An "opportunity missed" is not the same as "a completely pointless exercise..."

OK maybe completely pointless was a bit strong. But I'm surprised more people are not expressing any dissatisfaction with this. I guess it shows a general lack of interest in these diaries that no-one is really bothered about having a thoroughly edited and well produced copy. I'm sure this edition will look nice on anyones bookshelf but it's just going to be difficult for anyone who might find themselves repeatedly referring to it.

Or perhaps it shows that there is so much interest in it that they are able to forgive that it is a reproduction, since it is better to have that, than nothing at all.

Personally I want both of course and would love a properly edited edition with scholarly footnotes, where the reproduction of the originals forms a second volume.

That being said I have already ordered a copy and so have everyone I know with an interest in the subject matter. I think that this is an important and fantastic contribution to the knowledge pool of Thelema and wish to thank br. Shoemaker for his work.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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10/09/2008 3:55 pm  
"nashimiron" wrote:
"lashtal" wrote:
Yes, yes... But you described the book as "a completely pointless exercise" - it's to that description that I was referring. An "opportunity missed" is not the same as "a completely pointless exercise..."

OK maybe completely pointless was a bit strong. But I'm surprised more people are not expressing any dissatisfaction with this. I guess it shows a general lack of interest in these diaries that no-one is really bothered about having a thoroughly edited and well produced copy. I'm sure this edition will look nice on anyones bookshelf but it's just going to be difficult for anyone who might find themselves repeatedly referring to it.

Ditto. The reason I think people are posting on this thread is because they are interest in the work. If a scholarly edition with introduction by will be issued, I am sure many will purchase that one as well.


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Walterfive
(@walterfive)
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10/09/2008 6:36 pm  
"Nehushtan" wrote:
I'm sure that anybody who has undertaken the arduous task of transcribing Koenig's book will know exactly what I mean.

That's why I rely on my Black Flag/Naughty Nun high-res DVD improved edition of those materials! A *much* easier decipher!


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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13/09/2008 2:07 pm  

just got my copy, and i'm impressed. it's amazing to have this information out there (imo), kind of part of our history. it's pretty much all typewritten by her, and really easy to read.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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13/09/2008 2:30 pm  
"aconite93" wrote:
just got my copy, and i'm impressed. it's amazing to have this information out there (imo), kind of part of our history. it's pretty much all typewritten by her, and really easy to read.

Very good to hear. My copy was shipped the other day, and should arrive today or Monday. I'm very eager to read this book.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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14/09/2008 10:15 pm  
"Sol2Sol" wrote:
"aconite93" wrote:
just got my copy, and i'm impressed. it's amazing to have this information out there (imo), kind of part of our history. it's pretty much all typewritten by her, and really easy to read.

Very good to hear. My copy was shipped the other day, and should arrive today or Monday. I'm very eager to read this book.

Eagerly awaiting for my copy to arrive over to Europe. Can't wait.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
16/09/2008 8:35 pm  

I received my copy of the Jane Wolfe Cefalu Diaries yesterday. First of all, I was impressed by the speedy delivery. Ordered last week and recived it Monday. Secondly, I'd estimate that 95% of the book is perfectly legible. I think previous worries were a little hasty. I find the diaries quite charming as they are presented here. I do wish more of Crowley's handwritten comments were legible, but it is what it is.

The diaries themselves are quite interesting. Not too terribly different from my own journals. I'm glad to add this publication to my library. I'm also eager to hear what others think of this book.


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 Anonymous
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19/09/2008 1:42 pm  

My copy has arrived, and it looks legible, and well worth reading! Sadly it was packed badly by some digital printers in Spain, and the top of the spine was bashed-in during transit...and to top that UPS charged me sixty quid extra (mumbling something about customs charges as they did it!), and suggested I take that up with Lulu.com.

I shall aim to enjoy the book once my blood pressure is back to normal!


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
19/09/2008 1:51 pm  

I just got my copy delivered in Italy.
Ultra fast and copy in perfect conditions.
The hand writing is perfectly legible and the whole work seems well worth the read.
Thanks again for the publication. Mr Shoemaker.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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19/09/2008 4:06 pm  
"Vlad_Kiosk" wrote:
...and to top that UPS charged me sixty quid extra (mumbling something about customs charges as they did it!), and suggested I take that up with Lulu.com.

Customs? On a book sent within the EU? It doesn't make sense. Could you stand giving us some more detail on your horrible experience, in case any one else gets hit by this.

(My only experience of Lulu so far was from ordering a Motta title a while ago, which arrived through the post normally.)


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 Anonymous
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19/09/2008 4:24 pm  

I've ordered items from Lulu before, and had no problems, but then items have previously come through from the USA, and not a printer in Spain. The extra charges imposed by UPS certainly make no sense, and the UPS driver was clearly embarrassed about them and suggested I take it up with Lulu, which I am doing. I'll keep you posted, and would be interested to see if anyone else in the UK has the same sort of entanglements!


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lashtal
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19/09/2008 6:05 pm  

Received my copy (in the UK) today from Spain. No extra charges. Looks like standard post, "par avion".

Owner and Editor
LAShTAL


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IAO131
(@iao131)
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20/09/2008 5:34 am  

93,

This should be accepted and appreciated for what this is - newly available material (publicly) of very pertinent information. I doubt people other than Thelemites would be interested in this anyways and publishers perhaps even less so... Either way I would like to give some major props to COT Nor Cal & D. Shoemaker for this. I personally enjoy seeing Crowley's handwriting, however illegible and perhaps if it garners enough attention/support, a new edition will come out with some editorial comments? Even so, I approve.

IAO131


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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20/09/2008 2:58 pm  

I freely admit that my eyesight isn't the greatest and that I can make out very little of Crowley's notes. However, I showed it to a friend of mine and was quite surprised that she easily read many of his comments. Some she couldn't make out at all though.
I think the diaries are very valuable to those of us interested in Crowley and Thelema.


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 Anonymous
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Posts: 0
23/09/2008 9:11 am  

Just a wee update from the lulu.com saga...

They've admitted that their folk in Spain sent the book to me via freight collect, in error, and have offered to refund me, once I send them a scan of the reciept. They've also asked for a photo showing the condition of the book on arrival.

Looks like both issues may get sorted in the end!


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
23/09/2008 12:01 pm  
"Vlad_Kiosk" wrote:
My copy has arrived, and it looks legible, and well worth reading! Sadly it was packed badly by some digital printers in Spain, and the top of the spine was bashed-in during transit...and to top that UPS charged me sixty quid extra (mumbling something about customs charges as they did it!), and suggested I take that up with Lulu.com.

I shall aim to enjoy the book once my blood pressure is back to normal!

Same thing happened to me - UPS wanted to charge me an extra 60 quid. I refused to claim it based on this and have just written to Lulu.com for them to send it again.
This is really rather annoying....
Cheers
David


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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23/09/2008 1:05 pm  

Thankfully I've experienced none of the sixty quid nonsense with my Lulu publication of the diaries of Jane Wolfe.
And I'm also excited about the prospect of reading of those times, with comments by himself.
Very exciting the book is well constructed no flaws on my copy.


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kidneyhawk
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23/09/2008 3:45 pm  

Received our copy also...a very very nice work. There certainly ARE areas in which it is difficult to read the text. I can't fault the publisher for this, however, as the problem obviously lies with the condition of the original material and this material seems reproduced in as high a quality as possible.

That being said, the majority of the material is, indeed, easily readable and, from what I've gone through thus far, quite interesting. There are some sketches as well as AC's comments and other little details which make the facsimile a valuable document (for example, I noticed that AC would unerline a misspelled word here and there and this evokes the feeling of AC reading and processing the material, as well as offering his thoughts).

Jane Wolfe was no slacker, that's for sure!

$20 USD is, IMO, a deal for such a nice book.

As for TM:

UPS wanted to charge me an extra 60 quid

Good Lord!!! You could buy SIX more copies of the book for that!!! 😯


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 Anonymous
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23/09/2008 5:44 pm  

Looking forward to reading this, and the light in might shed on what went on there, what went right and went wrong, etc.


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the_real_simon_iff
(@the_real_simon_iff)
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23/09/2008 5:55 pm  

93!

I also have to applaud the fine printing quality. To be honest, I was prepared for a low-res scan of the pages, something other publications had done before unfortunately. But this is simply wonderful. Can't wait to read it...

Love=Law
Lutz


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 Anonymous
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Posts: 0
23/09/2008 8:25 pm  

Received my copy today. A few of the pages are printed quite faintly and are difficult to read but most of it looks quite legible.

This is a very important work, a must-have for any serious student or collector of Crowley's works. Jane Wolfe was quite fastidious with her entries and gives much insight into daily life at the Abbey. The facsimile edition does indeed evoke the feeling of Crowley's presence and shows some of his teaching style. Much gratitude to David Shoemaker and The COTONC for making this material available.


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warriormonk93
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24/09/2008 2:13 pm  

93! I received my copy yesterday. It was shrink warpped to a cardboard backing and in a box. Pristine condition. No extra fees even though it came via UPS to Montreal. I spent a few hours last evening reading through it. It shows that AC pretty well stuck to his program, as comparison to Frater Progradiors journal shows. His comments reveal a thoughtful and caring Master, very lucid and to the point. The only criticism I have is that in my opinion a bit more effort could have been spent on the introduction. I.e.: a short biography of Jane, introducing new information such as what she had done before and after the Cefalu experience... 93, 93/93.


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manofwycombe
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26/09/2008 9:42 pm  

93
Am happy to confirm that my copy of the Diaries arrived through the normal post this morning - with no bother about additional charges. On my first glance through, I have to say it's a very impressive production.
93 93/93

Clive


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
24/03/2009 4:43 pm  

Finally had the opportunity to finish reading my copy - which arrived in perfect condition, BTW. I was wondering what impressions others had of AC's teaching methods, the Abbey at Cefalu, etc.


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michaelclarke18
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24/03/2009 6:53 pm  

I too, am very pleased with my copy.
The only thing, which struck me as rather odd, is that there is absolutely NO mention of either Raoul or Betty Loveday in the closing sections of the diaries. Jane would have definitely met them, as Jane is mentioned by Betty - in Tigerwoman - and the Lovedays are mentioned in letters to John Symonds from Jane etc. Wolfe also nursed Raoul, before he died, and also attended Raoul's - legendary - funeral, with Crowley dressed in his Magicians Robes. Bit of a mystery, seems to me...


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