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Sigil Magick - Any results?  


 Anonymous
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How familiar are you with Sigil Magick?

How many of you had results? What kind of results?

How about the technics you are using? Which one seems to be the most effective to you? Suggesting any new technic?

VT


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James
(@james)
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I use sigils as the main method of enchantment. It is particularly good for affecting psychological states. If I'm starting a project, or seeking some new idea or knowledge then I find sigils work very well at increasing motivation, creativity, and becoming aware of opportunties that may otherwise be missed.

Apart from psychological changes, I do occasionally use it to try to directly alter the environment. I have found results do happen but often take time. Quite often the result is not quite what I had in mind. Still magick isn't just a matter of pointing at something and getting it. I have found that there is still a cost attached either in time and effort or having to give up on other things to attain a result.

Regards,

Jamie


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kidneyhawk
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Sigilmagick and James-

I also use Sigils as a "main method" and have found them to be extraordinarily powerful. They're part of my basic "toolbox," if you will. Just a few thoughts: demystifying Sigil casting, Grant Morrisson, in pop Magick, states that, quite simply, Sigils ALWAYS work...if this is not happening, there may be some tech issues to be addressed.

Here's what I've found:

1) Creating the sigil-copying Spare's method is not always the best path for our individual intra-psychic workings. The representing conscious desire in visual form (I only use visual sigils just because that's me...I understand you can also use mantras etc) can be done without letters-how you do this is up to you and your hand-simple symbol pictographs that are wholly unique to YOU but connected to the way you think and feel (If the Rune TYR means victory and achievement to you, then this may be drawn to represent that-and done repeatedly in subsequent Sigils-but maybe achievement is represented to you by something else: a smiley face, a simple word etc). To practice Sigil casting over and over with adequate Diary work is the key to get at your unique working Style for generating an effective image...

2) No mind-Ophidian wanks etc. Again, experiment and repetition will show the most potent tech for getting to the No-Mind Gateway for the "Launch." This is a matter of your own mind set-up and not to be constrained by "recipes" in books that are meant to be suggestive...

3) THELEMA: Crowley wrote that it's not enough to know your Will or even DO it-but that you must BECOME YOUR WILL. When this is in play, WILL IS-without "lust of result" (and this aids the "forgetting" process in the Cast). It also gives you the backing of the Universe-the cast is not swimming against the tide but casting into its mighty current. Most Chaos Magick stuff I've read says do what you want, get what you want, Sigils are Santa Claus in a Black Suit with an 8-pointed Star...and here's where James' words are quite well stated regarding the results being a bit off from what you might have wanted and attaching a "cost." This may be a matter of "tech," as well...to be sharpened with practice...but I still hold that WILL is not only a wise-guide but a power-engine in such work.

Sigils evoke change and results. Magick is inducing change according to WILL. I've known people who don't want to Sigil Cast because they get into this Choronzonic way of thinking, pondering how they might bring great evil into the world by trying to get what they want (i.e. I cast for a heap of cash and my parent dies the next day to leave me an inheritance-"Oh God, what did I DO????????")

WILL, being WILL, does away with this: noone needs the abstraction of money for its own sake. If I want $, it's because I have something in mind to do with it-what IS that? Acquiring a needed item-relieving a financial situation that is getting in the way of performing-BEING-Will? Cutting to the HEART can also fuel the speed and power of the Sigil.

I've not read anything in books on Chaos Magick that makes this point-to heed the LAW, BE the LAW and let THAT be the sole volition for the multiplicity of Sigil Magick...

...and, of course, the LAW is as personal as the tech involved.

Just my two cents on the topic.

Kyle


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James
(@james)
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I think this is why I like Jan Fries take on this point (and he is from the Chaos/Thelema side of things!), he talks about creating sigils not being just a conscious act but a collaberation between the conscious and Unconscious/Otherworld. The Will, as a symbol of the individual's path, is always partially unconscious, this is why it is necessary for consciousness to realise what it is. Of course it begs the question, does the Will need consciousness to carry on? I think it does, this is what Kyle sounds like he's saying when he quotes AC mention becoming the Will. The Will is not something other than 'I' neither is it 'I' alone. It is created when there is a marriage between consciousness and the Unconscious/Otherworld.

Regards,

Jamie


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Anonymous
 Anonymous
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And there is also a purely psychological aspect to the work. I've never done Sigil work, or hell maybe I have, I'm not even sure exactly what it is in all its' technicalities (I'd be sure to get the tech parts wrong if I tried just now!). However, like working an LBRP or LIRB, A Mass of the Phoenix or an Enochian invokation the psychology is paramount. Without the correct mental focus, there is scatter brainedness and severe doubt is always very possible, like that which Kyle mentioned.

Personally, I don't get the problem of worrying I will kill a person, or have my intentions go astray. I know that my real and true Will is not for any one to be killed, and it is not to have gain for myself at the expense of another. If it were, I might see my parents in the grave. But even though we think these thoughts, if there is even a trace of guilt or an understanding underlaying the ideas of violence or an extremely negative reaction to your positive account of Will, then you will know that this is not your intention. That's again, why the subconscious is needed. It's our little Jiminey Cricket saying, "Come on, you know you don't feel that way. Well, feeling is one thing, thinking and then APPLYING your Will is completely another." Thanks Jim.

But the psychology is just that simple. The rest is all personal. I imagine some methods that work when applying Sigil Magick to your life will for one and will not for another. The technicalities are all according to your own experience. Perhaps they're all according to one large method... What do you all think? Is that set in stone or does it differ? I've often debated, do I look for another and a new previously undiscovered technique, or do I look for something that makes more sense to just me, even though by another account, a person may say that the method does not work for them? Is there one solid method that has been found to work for most? Or not quite so in the beginning and more appropriately in studying and working Enochian Magicks? I could make my observations from my own limited work, though I prefer to do this after a responce or two, to consolidate myself. Which bring me to another whole question not relating to a psychology that could be connected to Sigil Work, but to doing Magick on another person... Should we ever? Perhaps I should start a new thread, for sake of keeping this one unlocked.

Any way we look at it, the Purely Free state of consciousness applied to concentration and Will toward action... And afterall, that action would have to be harsh to piss off the Gods enough to kill your parents in effect for it... is the key. It's all just focus, and simple meditation should help to clear the days shit out of your brain enough to concentrate on the loving beauty that is so similar to meditation itself (associated so much with not leaving ANY karmic trace), there needn't be a worry. It's all beauty, and it should all be practiced without guilt, or malice. If you're in between the two pillars of a lotta' Mercy and too much Severity, than you're right where you ought to be. In my opinion, Magick should never be done with negative intentions. And so long as it is not, it Will be effective if even in small ways.

Thanks for reading,

Sincerely,

Vilaven


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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"Vilaven" wrote:
In my opinion, Magick should never be done with negative intentions. And so long as it is not, it Will be effective if even in small ways.

Hi, interesting thread. I'm afraid I don't have much input but I definitely agree with this comment. 🙂 Just wanted to double stamp it! 😉


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arthuremerson
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What are "negative" intentions and why should we limit our power by suggesting that magick would be ineffective or less effective by them?

-ae


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kidneyhawk
(@kidneyhawk)
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I'm going to have to step over with ae and raise an eyebrow awaiting responses...Sigil Magick has been quite popularized by the advent of Chaos Magick which has little problem with "negative intentions." Karma isn't so much a moral judgement on your actions but the consequences as they arise. Consequently, I'm thinking that quite a bit of slime can be power-fueld by results-magick. But removing Magick (per se) from the equation, we find the same choices and their effects in every area of life from relationships to business deals to governemental decisions. And as Crowley stated: "Every intentional act is a Magickal Act." Quite a lot of selfish stomp-on-others type goals have been obtained successfully by intentionality manifest in application.

I think this may be leading into a dialogue or debate on ethics in Magick, which is (again-per Crowley's statement) a discussion of ethics itself. I guess to sum it up: Magick works-in all sorts of ways to all sorts of ends. Good intentions are not a key to power any more than they are to mastery of automotives. But there IS something that should guide and power-up and make our work a joy (even a fierce joy) and that is DWTWSBTWOTL. When this is embraced, I think the ethical questions begin to work themselves out on the personal level-and universal ethics (in a broad sense) emerge with respect to EMAEWIAS.

My whole point was that regardless of who's skilled and who's not-WILL can both motivate the operation so concerned and lend to it the pulse and force of the Star-hurtling Universe. And this is a nice advantage when spell casting!

God, was that too turgid?

Kyle


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Frater_HPK
(@frater_hpk)
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93,

From my experience in individual work results were good. In group attempts results were zero. Why I still don't know. Maybe someone has different experience with group work with sigils?

93 93/93

B.


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Anonymous
 Anonymous
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Alright guys, you're asking for it! And then I've got to go do a reading for myself very quickly concerning the Nature of my Magick, and its' many directions.

Frater HPK, I'll address you before Arthur. What is Serbia like compared to North America? PM me for this question, if you have the Will to reply to it. If not, that's 100% cool.

I find that group Ritual is less effective if the members of the group do not have the same ideas of what the Ritual is being done specifically for, according to each invididual member. I mean, if you're doing it in order to help a situation at home, and some one else is doing it because their 9 year old daughter is sick at the hospital, these are two very different things. Let alone if no one is conscious of why another person is participating of their own reasons. A lack of communication might have been present. I suggest invoking Mercury in some form before discussions, or the scribing of said discussions before any group work. Though I have never done this myself, it seems like a good idea......... 😛

For the most part, when I do ritual it is for a purpose which solves a problem but not mainly. Admittedly it usually has something to do with that. So in turn, I try to worship sometimes at least in ways that are simply selfless, and only unto the Universe and the appreciation thereof, expecting nothing in return. At times I will even do a Banishing when I have nothing to Banish, just because it's good for the Soul and the Psyche. There are no intetions there other than the Word, and the Love of Beautiful actions. Showing Mother Nature, the Sun and the Moon, the Sky and the Earth how much I love worshipping them dramatically. Oh, and I do. In a way, it's all in appreciation even when there's a specific intent. And the Universe strokes my little happy cat ass (you know, the nook between the tail and the lower back) when I do so.

There are the ideas behind my home, my relationships, friendly and work-oriented, Magickally or Occult oriented when I'm Banishing, or Invoking but A Mass Of The Phoenix Ritual being done has never been done, on my part, with more than a vague idea of what may happen as a result, or even my own clear intentions! With that Mass, I did it knowing that times were bad in my life and that I needed a bit of a rebirth, and that's it. And that has came for me. Regardless of what change was inevitable despite the Ritual, I thank it (as an appreciation of the Universe itself, and the lovely Work that I KNOW it does) and hold those actions responcible for the way things DID happen. How things may have differed providing it was never done, is beyond me though I do wonder. And the other Magician with me at the time knew of this (my vague cause), and a decent sized part of his greater Will outside of his own Intentions for the Ritual were dedicated to my needs, and my subtle unconscious causes... Just an explanation of my own experiences. It might help to discern what went wrong with yours. If none of this helps, then your problem may be a technicality due to action... Though for the most part, I think it should be recognized somewhat obviously provided the Ritual has been Worked at all, you know? As if, you did something and made that effort, even provided a few small mistakes of technicality, something should happen unless communication between Fraters and Sorors was dead off. I might be wrong here, and I always save room for my own human error.

Next post is for A.E..

Vilaven


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Anonymous
 Anonymous
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Alright, it's your turn now, Arthur!

"arthuremerson" wrote:
What are "negative" intentions and why should we limit our power by suggesting that magick would be ineffective or less effective by them?

-ae

Simple answer: Negative intentions are the ones that involve hurting people emotionally, mentally and physically on your behalf. If you Trust in a higher power, than you ought to trust that It will deliver the lessons needed, and your Will is not needed for It to do this. It might even be insulted that you would ask. We do not know. But I think good is more effective than evil, and that there is a positive and a negative guage which each action is measure by; it's called Justice. She's Tarot Trump number 11, and her and I get along quite well, lately. Then she teaches me a lesson and I don't like her for a while, but I soon come to realize that she's all good. I'm the screw up.

In my opinion, negative intentions are those that are not constrewed as positive. As was used in examples, the intention of anothers' death would be negative. Wishing someone physical or mental HARM, needlessly, would be a negative intention. Wanting an ex-boyfriend or girlfriend to learn a lesson is not so negative. When hurt, that is to be expected but never seriously projected. However, we are often unaware of our own lessons that must be learnt. When we ask the Universe to send them a lesson, it does not heed our call simply because we asked by (whatever deligation of) Occult standards, wheather Witches or Thelemites. None of us asks and receives what we want, unless we are truely deserving. And if we ask when we have a greater lesson to learn of ourselves, that lesson will be taught to you instead of your getting your way with what you thought your ex-girlfriend ought to learn. It is more important, far more, that we educate ourselves and forget about others outside of Love. But, what a nice world that would be to live in, and who wants that?

And yes, I am a hippie. 8)

A friend quoted a song to me the other day saying, "Well, you don't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you get what you need," And I thought about that long and hard and eventually came up with this: "What about those poor starving orphaned kids with AIDS in Africa." They don't have the education, the books or the mentors to even become aware of half the things that we all are, generally. But looking at Magick as if there is no right and wrong, no negative and no positive is just plain silly. By that logic, it was those kids' karma, destiny or purposeful reincarnation to be here in poverty and why should we help them? They're learning the lesson they were placed here to learn. Ohhh but we could come in of our own kindness and help them, in order to help ourselves, as we are so much more Karmically above them, that we may be merciful and help them out. I disagree. If you believe in that, you are a nazi at heart. Not that I'm placing these ideals as YOUR beliefs Arthur, I'm just covering some ground here.

I once, at a Fair in recent times, heard a cross dressed man-poet read a poem called "Better than". I wish I could quote it, but 'better than' is the bain of Nations, the crumbling of Power, the ebbing away of life. 'Equal to' is humble, beautiful, and loving. It is the soul we conjoin with in marriage, it is our sons and daughters the day that they are born. It is Love. 'Better than: It's why Thelemites and Christians don't get along.

And I look at the pos. neg. currents of the world as such: There is more negative but the positive is stronger, more powerful is you will.

Quoting myself,

"In my opinion, Magick should never be done with negative intentions. And so long as it is not, it Will be effective if even in small ways."

I did not say that it is completely ineffective to use negative ideas Magickally. It may be effective, but I've known Magicians who concentrate on the wrong ideas, and it doesn't get you very far. You might even think you're king of the castle, but in all reality, you're a bum who lives off of other Thelemites. *grumble grumble* Just an example... But trust in this practice, that you will get farther with the Force if you're Jedi than Sith. That's why the Jedi starred in the movie, and the Sith were the bad guys who no body wants to be like or have kids with, duh.

But this is my Personal Truth, and what works for you may be different, especially if you're Hitler.

I think what is negative and positive concerning intentions are determined by the humble attitude of your intentions when practicing Magick. If you are swelled full of pride of power, or brimming with excitement to cast that spell on that dickhead at work, then you're a weaker Magician than the one who enters into Practice with a tighter head on his or her shoulders, praising the anthem "LOVE IS THE LAW".

But that's just my 2 cents,

Love Under Will,

Vilaven


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