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 Anonymous
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27/02/2011 1:37 am  

????

www.thelemicmanifesto.org
from website;

"It is completely possible to promote all kinds of things from initiation to community building to academics to freedom of the individual to spiritual evolution to book publishing to even the person of the Prophet himself and still completely miss the simple message of Thelema.

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

What is Thelema? How does it inform everyday life? How does it shape the world around us? To what end are we called to proclaim Thelema to every man, woman, and child? What exactly is the goal of being a Thelemite? After a hundred years since the revelation of the Book of the Law, what are we doing that promulgates the Law of Thelema to a world that still suffers under the cross of shame?

To that end, we write this Manifesto …"

http://www.thelemicmanifesto.org


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Shiva
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27/02/2011 2:38 am  
"parzival" wrote:
????

Well, you don't get to see the Manifesto of Manifest Destiny without entering your email address.

Nice of someone to put the hook right up front where it can be clearly seen.

If anyone actually sees this document, maybe they'll want to tell the rest of us what it says.


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christibrany
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27/02/2011 2:46 am  

Smacks of proselytizing and proselytizing smacks to me of Christianity, and to a lesser extent Islam and Judaism, all of which even if they started out OK are crap now- so I don't like the site already. Fascinating message I know, but I felt I had to add my opinion. Thelema is not about spreading the Law in my opinion. It's about people asking you why you are so cool and you telling them why, not going about Liber ABA thumping.


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 Anonymous
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27/02/2011 4:22 am  

Shall I point out that the countdown is for April Fool's Day?


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einDoppelganger
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27/02/2011 4:42 am  
"christibrany" wrote:
and to a lesser extent Islam

really? ok...

Seems to me that I see less proselytizing from the Jewish community. The rest of the sons of Abraham though, are all up in that s**t


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christibrany
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27/02/2011 5:52 am  

🙂 scott maybe they are equally as bad but i personally have to take more flack from christians than anyone.
i hope you are right and that it really is a joke mr robot. and that is my quota for skim milk posts for the night.


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michaelclarke18
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27/02/2011 7:48 am  

Shall I point out that the countdown is for April Fool's Day?

Perhaps the update will consist of an April fool based message. Very well spotted Nemoide, by the way!


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Azidonis
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27/02/2011 7:21 pm  
"michaelclarke18" wrote:

Shall I point out that the countdown is for April Fool's Day?

Perhaps the update will consist of an April fool based message. Very well spotted Nemoide, by the way!

Agreed. Just to test it, I put in an email address... bullshitter156@hotmail.com (sorry to any of you who have this lol). It did nothing, absolutely nothing.


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 Anonymous
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27/02/2011 8:01 pm  

I don't get why someone would want to waste time for an April Fools joke at the same time providing blatant evidence that it actually IS an April Fools..


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 Anonymous
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27/02/2011 8:12 pm  
"christibrany" wrote:
Smacks of proselytizing and proselytizing smacks to me of Christianity, and to a lesser extent Islam and Judaism, all of which even if they started out OK are crap now- so I don't like the site already. Fascinating message I know, but I felt I had to add my opinion. Thelema is not about spreading the Law in my opinion. It's about people asking you why you are so cool and you telling them why, not going about Liber ABA thumping.

Chris, let me get this straight: You wait until someone asks "why you are so cool" and then you tell them about true Will?


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Shiva
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27/02/2011 8:37 pm  
"Camlion" wrote:
Chris, let me get this straight: You wait until someone asks "why you are so cool" and then you tell them about true Will?

I know you addressed your question to Chris, whom I hope will reply as I have a deep interest in this approach, but I believe you got it straight right off the bat.

Sh.'.


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amadan-De
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27/02/2011 9:45 pm  
"Shiva" wrote:
Well, you don't get to see the Manifesto of Manifest Destiny without entering your email address.

That's not what it looks like to me at all - it says "Enter your email to receive updates", now I may verge on Ludditism but that to me reads as meaning that if you submit your email address they will send you updates as and when they happen. Putting in a false email address demonstrates nothing as you can't check if anything has been received so it fails as a test.

It looks to me as if there is an active countdown to the release of the 'Manifesto' and not that it is already released and you need to 'pay' with your email address to see it.

The fact that the countdown ends on April 1st might indicate a huge con but I agree with FraterLucius that it would be a poor April Fool's joke if it telegraphed itself so obviously.

There is another possibility 8) ....I seem to recall a certain amount of 'controversy' about the actual dates of the 'Reception' of the Book of the Law....it has been suggested that it may have actually started on 1st April and not a week later on the 8th (there is an old thread here that contains the arguments) so maybe they are making a rather subtle and esoteric joke.

Simple to test. Wait for the countdown to end (and don't give 'em your email unless prepared to accept what follows 😉 )


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christibrany
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28/02/2011 4:50 am  

I figured this would come up as after I re read it I realised I had not written my thoughts very well.
In a nutshell I was saying success is your proof in that the best mode of spreading any mode of thought or action is by living it.
Then when people see how healthy or calm and collected /successful or at least happy you are, they will wonder why and want to emulate the things that caused it. In this case being Thelema.
thats what I meant by that. Hopefully that makes some iota of sense.


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einDoppelganger
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28/02/2011 5:11 am  

Hmmm....

I liked it better when I imagined you kicking back in some Raybans with custom engraved unicursal hexagrams waiting for people to slink up and hesitantly ask

"Mr Stibrany... why are you so cool?"

"Well Darlin, lemme tall y'all about OZ..."

I guess the other answer works too... 🙂

S


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 Anonymous
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28/02/2011 12:17 pm  

"What is Thelema?" In this context it is a noun and an adjective contained within The Book of the Law which according to AC originated superhumanly.

"How does it inform everyday life?" According to how each individual lives up to the demands/standards of The Book of the Law.

"How does it shape the world around us?" The supposedly superhumanly originated The Book of the Law contains the following statement on how thelema shapes the world around us: "This shall regenerate the world [...] (I: 53)".

To what end are we called to proclaim Thelema to every man, woman, and child? The Book of the Law contains the following answer to that question: So that "[...] they shall chance to abide in this bliss or no [...] (III:39)."

What exactly is the goal of being a Thelemite? The exact goal of being a Thelemite will be different for each individual, but is qualified or disqualified according to the standards/demands provided by The Book of the Law.

"After a hundred years since the revelation of the Book of the Law, what are we doing that promulgates the Law of Thelema to a world that still suffers under the cross of shame?" The Book of the Law demands quicly to give the Law to each man and woman that you meet (III:39), I don't know how many who today follow this demand/standard from The Book of the Law.

A first impression might be that this provides room for wishful thinking or magical thinking, because the supposedly self-proclaimed world-regenerating nature of The Book of the Law, is not presented clearly and directly as a consequence of efforts on the part of its followers.

But statements like "thou shalt know & destroy the traitors", "Success is thy proof: argue not; convert not; talk not over much!" (both: III:42), "Success is your proof; courage is your armour; go on, go on, in my strength; & ye shall turn not back for any!" (III:46), "There is success." (III:69), takes away the room for wishful thinking or magical thinking within this book's Thelema, or among this book's Thelemites.

If one as a self-proclaimed Thelemite according to this book's Thelema has none of the success repeatedly mentioned and described in it, The Book of the Law disqualifies one with statements like:

"Aye! feast! rejoice! there is no dread hereafter. [...]", "There is death for the dogs.", "Dost thou fail? Art thou sorry? Is fear in thine heart?", "Where I am these are not.", "Pity not the fallen! I never knew them. I am not for them. I console not: I hate the consoled & the consoler.", "I am unique & conqueror. I am not of the slaves that perish. Be they damned & dead! Amen [...] (II: 44, 45, 46, 47, 48 and 49)".

The Book of the Law strongly distances itself from failure, sorrow and fear (II: 46, 47, 48 and 49), while in its third and final chapter repeatedly associating itself with effort-based success (III: 42, 46, and 69). So its supposedly self-proclaimed world-regenerating nature, can hardly be interpreted as something automatic, independent of efforts on the part of what it calls Thelemites, efforts living up to the demands/standards of a Law it describes and calls Thelema.


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einDoppelganger
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28/02/2011 12:28 pm  
"wellredwellbred" wrote:
"What is Thelema?" In this context it is a noun and an adjective contained within The Book of the Law which according to AC originated superhumanly.

"How does it inform everyday life?" According to how each individual lives up to the demands/standards of The Book of the Law.

"How does it shape the world around us?" The supposedly superhumanly originated The Book of the Law contains the following statement on how thelema shapes the world around us: "This shall regenerate the world [...] (I: 53)".

To what end are we called to proclaim Thelema to every man, woman, and child? The Book of the Law contains the following answer to that question: So that "[...] they shall chance to abide in this bliss or no [...] (III:39)."

What exactly is the goal of being a Thelemite? The exact goal of being a Thelemite will be different for each individual, but is qualified or disqualified according to the standards/demands provided by The Book of the Law.

"After a hundred years since the revelation of the Book of the Law, what are we doing that promulgates the Law of Thelema to a world that still suffers under the cross of shame?" The Book of the Law demands quicly to give the Law to each man and woman that you meet (III:39), I don't know how many who today follow this demand/standard from The Book of the Law.

A first impression might be that this provides room for wishful thinking or magical thinking, because the supposedly self-proclaimed world-regenerating nature of The Book of the Law, is not presented clearly and directly as a consequence of efforts on the part of its followers.

But statements like "thou shalt know & destroy the traitors", "Success is thy proof: argue not; convert not; talk not over much!" (both: III:42), "Success is your proof; courage is your armour; go on, go on, in my strength; & ye shall turn not back for any!" (III:46), "There is success." (III:69), takes away the room for wishful thinking or magical thinking within this book's Thelema, or among this book's Thelemites.

If one as a self-proclaimed Thelemite according to this book's Thelema has none of the success repeatedly mentioned and described in it, The Book of the Law disqualifies one with statements like:

"Aye! feast! rejoice! there is no dread hereafter. [...]", "There is death for the dogs.", "Dost thou fail? Art thou sorry? Is fear in thine heart?", "Where I am these are not.", "Pity not the fallen! I never knew them. I am not for them. I console not: I hate the consoled & the consoler.", "I am unique & conqueror. I am not of the slaves that perish. Be they damned & dead! Amen [...] (II: 44, 45, 46, 47, 48 and 49)".

The Book of the Law strongly distances itself from failure, sorrow and fear (II: 46, 47, 48 and 49), while in its third and final chapter repeatedly associating itself with effort-based success (III: 42, 46, and 69). So its supposedly self-proclaimed world-regenerating nature, can hardly be interpreted as something automatic, independent of efforts on the part of what it calls Thelemites, efforts living up to the demands/standards of a Law it describes and calls Thelema.

Rhubarb


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amadan-De
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28/02/2011 1:40 pm  

wellredwellbred - do you know what a 'rhetorical question' is?

(Please resist the call of your soap-box, I don't really want an answer but pose my question in an effort to make you reflect.)


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 Anonymous
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28/02/2011 1:46 pm  

E-prime, anyone?


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amadan-De
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28/02/2011 1:50 pm  

Thanks, but I've just put one out. :mrgreen:


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Azidonis
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28/02/2011 3:58 pm  

93,

"christibrany" wrote:
Then when people see how healthy or calm and collected /successful or at least happy you are, they will wonder why and want to emulate the things that caused it.

Mimetic desire

"[...]

So there did indeed exist "psychological laws" as Marcel Proust calls them.[8] These laws and this system are the consequences of a fundamental reality grasped by the novelists, which Girard called the mimetic character of desire. This is the content of his first book, Deceit, Desire and the Novel (1961). We borrow our desires from others. Far from being autonomous, our desire for a certain object is always provoked by the desire of another person — the model — for this same object. This means that the relationship between the subject and the object is not direct: there is always a triangular relationship of subject, model, and object. Through the object, one is drawn to the model, whom Girard calls the mediator: it is in fact the model who is sought. René Girard calls desire "metaphysical" in the measure that, as soon as a desire is something more than a simple need or appetite, "all desire is a desire to be",[9] it is an aspiration, the dream of a fullness attributed to the mediator.

Mediation is external when the mediator of the desire is socially beyond the reach of the subject or, for example, a fictional character, as in the case of Amadis de Gaula and Don Quixote. The hero lives a kind of folly that nonetheless remains optimistic. Mediation is internal when the mediator is at the same level as the subject. The mediator then transforms into a rival and an obstacle to the acquisition of the object, whose value increases as the rivalry grows. This is the universe of the novels of Stendhal, Flaubert, Proust and Dostoevsky, which are particularly studied in this book.

Through their characters, our own behaviour is displayed. Everyone holds firmly to the illusion of the authenticity of one's own desires; the novelists implacably expose all the diversity of lies, dissimulations, maneuvers, and the snobbery of the Proustian heroes; these are all but "tricks of desire", which prevent one from facing the truth: envy and jealousy. These characters, desiring the being of the mediator, project upon him superhuman virtues while at the same time depreciating themselves, making him a god while making themselves slaves, in the measure that the mediator is an obstacle to them. Some, pursuing this logic, come to seek the failures that are the signs of the proximity of the ideal to which they aspire. This is masochism, which can turn into sadism.

This fundamental focus on mimetic desire would be pursued by René Girard throughout the rest of his career. It is interesting to note that the stress on imitation in humans was not a popular subject when Girard developed his theories[citation needed], but today there is independent support for his claims coming from empirical research in psychology and neuroscience (see below).

93 93/93


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Shiva
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28/02/2011 4:12 pm  
"christibrany" wrote:
I was saying success is your proof in that the best mode of spreading any mode of thought or action is by living it. Then when people see how healthy or calm and collected /successful or at least happy you are, they will wonder why and want to emulate the things that caused it. In this case being Thelema.

I only see one problem with this approach. An initiate, treading the path, is rarely healthy, happy, calm, collected or successful. This is because one's karma has been called up for accounting and balancing, and we often see illness, discontent, nervousness, excitability, scatterdness, and non-success.

Of course, these are not the goals. But even after reaching a goal or two, this new-age description of a happy, fulfilled, ray of sunshine initiate doesn't fit the facts. For example, Aleister was almost always ill in one way or another and his entire life (after his early days of inherited wealth) was filled with various levels of poverty accompanied by constant demands for "more money" from his followers. Plus, his scathing personality often reduced other people's personas to dust. All part of the guru-yoga phenomenon, but also leading to notoriety as "The wickedest man in the world."

After all, the "spiritual path" attempts to go in that most impossible of directions: Straight Up!

Along the way, one encounters moments or periods of unbelievable ecstasy and radiance - but they are often short-lived and one merely has to turn to that next task on the "path" and, more often than not, that next step will be filled with problems and/or illness and/or confusion.

One is usually "cool" (on a regular basis) after having reached Binah, but even then "an adept is only an adept when functioning in their light body." At other times (that is, when one is NOT in the light body, radiating the bliss beyond the abyss), one is just a person like all the other people, and subject to the wear and tear of daily living.

Yet, with advancement (on the "path"), one does begin to radiate a subtle light (all the time) that can be recognized or perceived by other people. It is probably this subtle light that people (those who are sensitive) will sense and maybe ask about. But rarely is it health, wealth and success.

On the other hand, this subtle light will also stimulate many crystallized people into an upheaval of their childhood traumas (or past lives) and they will be quick to transfer their discomfort to an accusation of YOU being the source of their problems.

So, if you (YOU) are happy, calm, collected and successful, and people actually wonder why you're so "cool," I would like to know what your secret is. I believe you have indicated that you are currently operating at a Student or Probationer level. Are you implying that you have already reached Thelema (Will) expession? Or are you merely stating an idealized, euphoric philosophy of what would be nice in daily life?


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amadan-De
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28/02/2011 4:41 pm  

Off-Topic.

If interested in recent ideas and work involving Mimesis in psychology and neuro-science you can do worse than start with the work of Merlin Donald.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merlin_Donal d"> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merlin_Donald

I recommend both of his books highly, not least because of his refreshing movement away from the mechanistic reductionism that characterises so much so-called 'cognitive' psychology.


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christibrany
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28/02/2011 4:50 pm  

I don't want to derail the thread since I am in no way the epitome of all i wish to be hence wanting to improve myself via Thelema, the AA etc.
However, my previous non thelema experiences have all put me in a place where i feel capable of controlling my thoughts, emotions and desires so that I am happier than I ever was. These practises include daoist yoga, tai chi, qi gong and meditation including traditional zen as well as hindu bhakti. After a typical twenty somethings soul searching but ni my case a non typical hard application of above techniques (over a total of perhaps 7 years) I am at the point where at least personally whenever I feel down I recognise the cause, fix it, or more often, I realise that my emotions are only reflections of my mind and thoughts and thus I release their charge and banish them if you will. In this case I am not repressing anything unhealthily, I am more like finding a dirty fire cracker on the road of my mind which has been stirred up by external elements like the wind of the world, and rather than the average joe which takes the firecracker in his hand and whines about it blowing his fingers off (X did this X did that, X external stimulus is making me feel Y inside so my life sucks) whenever said firecracker appears (thought or emotion I am not in desire of fully expressing) I discharge it with the wet water of my will and then move on in previous calm state. It is not always happy , because I don't always Choose to me happy. Its one of the things we learned in my daoist practise, you are not your body or your mind, they are yours and you learn to control them. Thus you choose your emotions.
This is my background that I wish to improve on in a more physical and hopefully more powerful (internally) sense, hence becoming interested in Thelema.


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christibrany
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28/02/2011 4:56 pm  

I wish to add that the more I personally do this sort of internal banishing of thoughts and emotions that I feel it is not my Will to experience, then the less often do they enter into the pool of my mind of their own power. And eventually year by year I feel my pool becoming still for longer periods, and this is just in daily life not in asana or what have you. Sometimes it makes me not very empathetic to peoples problems is one negative side effect because I see how easily they could solve them just by changing their perspective, but thats just me. Ok back to regularly scheduled programming.


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Shiva
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28/02/2011 8:58 pm  
"einDoppelganger" wrote:
Hmmm....kicking back in some Raybans with custom engraved unicursal hexagrams waiting for people to slink up and hesitantly ask ...

You have just revealed the innermost secret of Our Order in the plainest possible language. Please report immediately to the closest Temple of your choice to take the proper Oaths of Secrecy in this matter. Bring your checkbook or credit card. I assure you that you will be admitted to a highly-respected, high-up, degree level, bypassing all lesser grades due to your "imagined" insight into the nature of The Sanctuary.

<span style="font-size:9px]Legal / Historical Precedent%;">


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christibrany
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28/02/2011 9:13 pm  

I used to want to be cool in that sense, but then I realised it was much too much work and you never had time for anything else 🙂 That and I lost interest in my outer shell so to speak.


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 Anonymous
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28/02/2011 9:15 pm  
"Shiva" wrote:
"christibrany" wrote:
I was saying success is your proof in that the best mode of spreading any mode of thought or action is by living it. Then when people see how healthy or calm and collected /successful or at least happy you are, they will wonder why and want to emulate the things that caused it. In this case being Thelema.

I only see one problem with this approach. An initiate, treading the path, is rarely healthy, happy, calm, collected or successful. This is because one's karma has been called up for accounting and balancing, and we often see illness, discontent, nervousness, excitability, scatterdness, and non-success.

I'm not sure how much of the fiscal misery attendant to Initiation is really necessary and how much is just due to not dealing with the 'lower' planes in a "business way." After all, the begging bowl need not necessarily be part of the Thelemic Magician's Armorum. This idea is reinforced, of course, by AC's legendary sloppiness in this area, as well as decidedly 'unThelemic' notions about asceticism.

In any case, this idea of high regard in the eyes of others being a good conversation starter for a discussion of Thelema seems rather remote to me. If someone prefers to mind their own business and not discuss Thelema with others, that is fine, no excuses are need - although some would argue that if you're not part of the solution you're part of the problem. 🙂


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christibrany
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28/02/2011 9:20 pm  

i disagree with the idea that if you're not proselytizing you're causing some downfall of an idea. In this day and age its those that keep silent and display something valuable that makes people want it more. We have become attuned to blocking out the BS of everyday life with its preachers in media and religion. At least I think most people have (hopefully for their mental healths sake)


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 Anonymous
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28/02/2011 10:22 pm  
"christibrany" wrote:
i disagree with the idea that if you're not proselytizing you're causing some downfall of an idea. In this day and age its those that keep silent and display something valuable that makes people want it more. We have become attuned to blocking out the BS of everyday life with its preachers in media and religion. At least I think most people have (hopefully for their mental healths sake)

Sooo... How is information to be exchanged, Chris?


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amadan-De
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28/02/2011 10:44 pm  
"Camlion" wrote:
How is information to be exchanged...?

Maybe with politeness and not pushy-ness? Responding to questions asked rather than hard-selling alleged answers?

Were you recruited Camlion or did you discover some of AC's work (in a bookshop, library, acquaintances bookshelf, abandoned in a bus shelter - it doesn't matter where) and decide for yourself that you wanted to investigate more?

I've never met a proselytizer that did not have some stench of the fanatic about him/her and since I reflexively distrust all fanatics as their vision is perforce limited (and they think there is only one Truth) it kind of short-circuits their attempts to woo me.


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 Anonymous
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28/02/2011 11:34 pm  
"amadan-De" wrote:
"Camlion" wrote:
How is information to be exchanged...?

Maybe with politeness and not pushy-ness? Responding to questions asked rather than hard-selling alleged answers?

Were you recruited Camlion or did you discover some of AC's work (in a bookshop, library, acquaintances bookshelf, abandoned in a bus shelter - it doesn't matter where) and decide for yourself that you wanted to investigate more?

I've never met a proselytizer that did not have some stench of the fanatic about him/her and since I reflexively distrust all fanatics as their vision is perforce limited (and they think there is only one Truth) it kind of short-circuits their attempts to woo me.

lol amadan-De, if I was trying woo you, you'd likely never know it. 🙂

But this is not the point, it was Chris who injected the words "proselytizing" and "preachers" into the discussion, and I will not be put into a position of defending these things, because I don't think they are effective. It was Crowley who advocated them, actually. Now you are adding the word "pushy-ness." I advocate nothing that is off-putting, for that very reason. I am interested only in success with every endeavor.

As for my introduction to Thelema, I was recruited without subtly while in high school, after inadvertently demonstrating an aptitude for the subject. Long story, but I had the good sense to realize the Truth when I saw it, because it explained me to myself. I do not recommend this method for most people, however, because for most people, present company apparently included, it is either a case of trust everyone and everything or trust nothing at all - and either position is silly. A case in point, Chris' conclusion that all religion or media must be bullshit, because much its content is bullshit. In point of fact, some content in media and even religion (EGC for example) is not bullshit. One must be able to discern, case by case.


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amadan-De
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01/03/2011 12:43 pm  
"Camlion" wrote:
lol amadan-De, if I was trying woo you, you'd likely never know it. 🙂

The Matthew 10:16 approach? Better than hard-sell but still no guarantor of success. 😀 (or are you talking Rohypnol?)

"Camlion" wrote:
But this is not the point, it was Chris who injected the words "proselytizing" and "preachers" into the discussion, and I will not be put into a position of defending these things, because I don't think they are effective. It was Crowley who advocated them, actually. Now you are adding the word "pushy-ness." I advocate nothing that is off-putting, for that very reason. I am interested only in success with every endeavor.

. So Chris is addressing Crowley's suggested methodology - a not unreasonable stance given how so many 'Thelemic true-believers' are content to simply quote his work (and only his work) as justification for their actions, present company excluded of course. Glad to hear that you advocate nothing off-putting, but what might concern me is how invested you are in the eventual 'success' of 'every endeavour'. If 'failure' is anathema it can often result in increasingly 'pushy' tactics if the campaign does not yield the desired results. Not that I am suggesting that you are likely to fall into this trap, just that it is not too uncommon.

"Camlion" wrote:
As for my introduction to Thelema, I was recruited without subtly while in high school, after inadvertently demonstrating an aptitude for the subject. Long story, but I had the good sense to realize the Truth when I saw it, because it explained me to myself. I do not recommend this method for most people, however, because for most people, present company apparently included, it is either a case of trust everyone and everything or trust nothing at all - and either position is silly. A case in point, Chris' conclusion that all religion or media must be bullshit, because much its content is bullshit. In point of fact, some content in media and even religion (EGC for example) is not bullshit. One must be able to discern, case by case.

So, as a 'teen' you demonstrated an intrinsic and pre-existing aptitude or nature which prompted your 'recruiter' to expose you to Thelemic materials which you then recognised as appropriate and relevent to your understanding of yourself and so adopted it as your 'Truth'. Although I am unaware of how 'unsubtly' your 'recruiter' acted I presume it wasn't a case of "You must read this! No, you really must read this and I am not letting you leave until you do and accept it as the only truth!" and that you were not the sort of alienated and rudderless 'teen' seeking any tribe to join to give definition to their identity. Rather, someone thought you might be interested, showed you the materials, discussion followed and you decided for yourself that it was for you - not too far from my suggestion. The asking of the question can be a subtle process too and not always fully concious.

As for trust - I only said that I reflexively distrust fanatics and that is in response to their fervent belief that I must think like them. In that circumstance I'm with Proudhon and declare them my enemy. Anyone who is content to say "I think this, what do you think?" (or even "Do you think this?") is fine by me, welcomed even, it's the "this is the Truth there is no possibility of another" that raises the barrier.

Unfortunately bullshit is increasingly present in media and religion (even including the EGC) but it is absolutely correct that it is not all bullshit and discernment is all. (Interesting that you feel the need to qualify that 'even religion' may not contain bullshit - it's just another medium so no more likely to be or not be bullshit in my view). I suspect that we are closer in attitude than you might think despite the fact that I do not see 'Thelema' as the Truth and the Way. A truth by all means and delighted if it works for you but I also see other avenues to other destinations (some closer to, some further from yours but none totally bullshit. 😉 )

[attempt to pull back on-topic] Perhaps this immanent manifesto will also have information worth having - time will tell. [/attempt to pull back on topic] :mrgreen:


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
01/03/2011 4:30 pm  

www.thelemicmanifesto.org from website;

"[...] the simple message of Thelema. Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law"

From Chapter LXXI: Morality (2) in Magick Without Tears;

"There is a highly popular school of "occultists" which is 99 % an escape-mechanism. The fear of death is one of the bogeys; but far deeper is the root-fear—fear of being alone, of being oneself, of life itself. With this there goes the sense of guilt.

The Book of the Law cuts directly at the root of all this calamitous, this infamous tissue of falsehood.

What is the meaning of Initiation? It is the Path to the realisation of your Self as the sole, the supreme, the absolute of all Truth, Beauty, Purity, Perfection!"

"amadan-De" wrote:
There is another possibility 8) ....I seem to recall a certain amount of 'controversy' about the actual dates of the 'Reception' of the Book of the Law....it has been suggested that it may have actually started on 1st April and not a week later on the 8th (there is an old thread here that contains the arguments) so maybe they are making a rather subtle and esoteric joke.

AC criticizing "a highly popular school of "occultists"" as "99 % an escape-mechanism" from "the root-fear—fear of being alone", and simultaneously stating that "The Book of the Law cuts directly at the root of all this [...] falsehood", while he his whole life after 1904 claimed that the said bok was given to him from beyond this world by superhuman beings, is obviously worthy of a joke.


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 2964
01/03/2011 4:33 pm  

93,

This subject continues to pop up on these forums. I guess we will begin to see Thelema billboards.

Liber L III:39 "All this and a book to say how thou didst come hither and a reproduction of this ink and paper for ever—for in it is the word secret & not only in the English—and thy comment upon this the Book of the Law shall be printed beautifully in red ink and black upon beautiful paper made by hand; and to each man and woman that thou meetest, were it but to dine or to drink at them, it is the Law to give. Then they shall chance to abide in this bliss or no; it is no odds. Do this quickly!"

These are the instructions. It is up to every man and every woman to figure out how to best follow them in accordance with their own Wills (if they Will).

I don't personally see why the current popularity contest is even ensuing. I get that the Rayban comments were just jokes, but it seems to be the general theme at least here that it is "cool to be a Thelemite", and if you aren't then you are not cool. Or if you aren't down with the mainstream that makes you some sort of wild growth of a Thelemite.

I think if Buddha were alive he'd slap Crowley for even having parts of his doctrine that might lead people to this tendency, and he might slap some of us as well.

93 93/93


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amadan-De
(@amadan-de)
Member
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 686
01/03/2011 5:20 pm  
"Azidonis" wrote:
I think if Buddha were alive he'd slap Crowley for even having parts of his doctrine that might lead people to this tendency, and he might slap some of us as well.

*ripple of applause* 😆


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einDoppelganger
(@eindoppelganger)
Member
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 915
01/03/2011 6:56 pm  
"Azidonis" wrote:
it seems to be the general theme at least here that it is "cool to be a Thelemite"

Some of the least cool people I have ever met identify as Thelemites. That delusional state seems typical to the adept... Often there is a vast gap between their perception of self and the self in reality. Perhaps chalk it up to delusions of grandeur and an inability to perform some real solid introspection.

Personally, I find the "delusion of coolness" less distasteful than the sense of spiritual superiority and haughtiness some "Thelemites" can display. The best ones seem to be the ones that shut the hell up about it and get on with things. Making something worthwhile other than a stream of incoherent babble about their spiritual path and finding their "TRUE WILL!!!!"

As if it was lost and is under a cushion somewhere...

S

PS Raybans aren't cool.. ironic maybe but irony is so 2009 it isn't even funny!

PSS Incidentally I'm not referring to anyone specifically in this thread... Not even WRWB since I dont believe he is a real person... Rhubarb


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
01/03/2011 7:17 pm  
"wellredwellbred" wrote:
From Chapter LXXI: Morality (2) in Magick Without Tears;

"There is a highly popular school of "occultists" which is 99 % an escape-mechanism. The fear of death is one of the bogeys; but far deeper is the root-fear—fear of being alone, of being oneself, of life itself. With this there goes the sense of guilt.

The Book of the Law cuts directly at the root of all this calamitous, this infamous tissue of falsehood.

What is the meaning of Initiation? It is the Path to the realisation of your Self as the sole, the supreme, the absolute of all Truth, Beauty, Purity, Perfection!"

My Crowley quote of the day, and perfectly relevant to the present, um, disagreement. 🙂

"amadan-De" wrote:
I suspect that we are closer in attitude than you might think despite the fact that I do not see 'Thelema' as the Truth and the Way. A truth by all means and delighted if it works for you but I also see other avenues to other destinations (some closer to, some further from yours but none totally bullshit.

Okay, amadan-De, please give us an example of one of your "other avenues to other destinations" that you see as worthy of comparrison to my Crowley quote of the day above (and some hint as to how your suggestion might be relevant within the context of this website would be helpful.)

"amadan-De" wrote:
[attempt to pull back on-topic] Perhaps this immanent manifesto will also have information worth having - time will tell. [/attempt to pull back on topic]

This thread is NOT off topic to the OP, which states:

"parzival" wrote:
It is completely possible to promote all kinds of things from initiation to community building to academics to freedom of the individual to spiritual evolution to book publishing to even the person of the Prophet himself and still completely miss the simple message of Thelema.

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

What is Thelema? How does it inform everyday life? How does it shape the world around us? To what end are we called to proclaim Thelema to every man, woman, and child? What exactly is the goal of being a Thelemite? After a hundred years since the revelation of the Book of the Law, what are we doing that promulgates the Law of Thelema to a world that still suffers under the cross of shame?

To that end, we write this Manifesto …"

"Azidonis" wrote:
This subject continues to pop up on these forums. I guess we will begin to see Thelema billboards.

I am beginning to see more Thelemites, in all walks of life, which I find very encouraging, Az. 🙂


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 2964
01/03/2011 7:23 pm  
"einDoppelganger" wrote:
"Azidonis" wrote:
it seems to be the general theme at least here that it is "cool to be a Thelemite"

Some of the least cool people I have ever met identify as Thelemites. That delusional state seems typical to the adept... Often there is a vast gap between their perception of self and the self in reality. Perhaps chalk it up to delusions of grandeur and an inability to perform some real solid introspection.

I get what you are saying, but it comes off as though you are saying the Adepts have delusions of grandeur. Would you say this is a dis-ease particular to the Adept?

Personally, I find the "delusion of coolness" less distasteful than the sense of spiritual superiority and haughtiness some "Thelemites" can display.

I don't believe I've seen this in quite a while. Delusion is delusion though. It all tastes funny to me.

The best ones seem to be the ones that shut the hell up about it and get on with things.

All hail the forum lurker!

Making something worthwhile other than a stream of incoherent babble about their spiritual path and finding their "TRUE WILL!!!!"

As if it was lost and is under a cushion somewhere...

Zing?

S

PS Raybans aren't cool.. ironic maybe but irony is so 2009 it isn't even funny!

Zing # 2?

PSS Incidentally I'm not referring to anyone specifically in this thread... Not even WRWB since I dont believe he is a real person... Rhubarb

I think WRWB is someone's crude attempt at creating a mysticism quoting program.

93 93/93


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 2964
01/03/2011 7:29 pm  

93,

"Camlion" wrote:
I am beginning to see more Thelemites, in all walks of life, which I find very encouraging, Az. 🙂

Encouraging in what way?

93 93/93


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einDoppelganger
(@eindoppelganger)
Member
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 915
01/03/2011 7:38 pm  
"Azidonis" wrote:
I get what you are saying, but it comes off as though you are saying the Adepts have delusions of grandeur. Would you say this is a dis-ease particular to the Adept?

Well, you could say its all about delusions of grandeur I suppose. I guess the alternative is spending all day with very sensible middle management types. Who wants that?!? I will take the delusional ones as long as they aren't too pompous.

I don't believe I've seen this in quite a while. Delusion is delusion though. It all tastes funny to me.

I see it from time to time. Its subtle and not restricted to Thelemties in the world at large. It does make me cringe when I hear someone described as "not very spiritual." What if they are Epicurean?! Whouldn't that come across as "not very spiritual..." Thats all beside the point though and I dont want to derail the thread. I think the only thing worse than evangelical zealots are pompous haughty "spiritual" people.

All hail the forum lurker!

Some of the coolest people I know are forum lurkers...
They are like Rayban clip-on flip-up lens level of cool (zing)
Seriously though - hail the lurkers!

As if it was lost and is under a cushion somewhere...

Zing?

Yeah, totally... trying to lighten the mood but I'm so damn dry sometimes it doesn't come across on internets.. .

Zing # 2?

Yah, **rimshot**

I think WRWB is someone's crude attempt at creating a mysticism quoting program.

I honestly wonder if you aren't onto something here... his posts do read like the output of an almost functional AI.... : )


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
01/03/2011 7:52 pm  
"Azidonis" wrote:
93,

"Camlion" wrote:
I am beginning to see more Thelemites, in all walks of life, which I find very encouraging, Az. 🙂

Encouraging in what way?

93 93/93

To quote myself, with a slight adjustment, from a previous post: I can think of no problem on this planet that would not be corrected by the application of the Law of Thelema amongst its human population; that each individual knows and does their true Will, which is how I define "Thelemite."


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amadan-De
(@amadan-de)
Member
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 686
01/03/2011 9:43 pm  
"Camlion" wrote:
Okay, amadan-De, please give us an example of one of your "other avenues to other destinations" that you see as worthy of comparrison to my Crowley quote of the day above (and some hint as to how your suggestion might be relevant within the context of this website would be helpful.)

Nice try but...NO. It would make no difference anyway so why waste my time any more than I have? (You remind me what I dislike in the vocal 'Thelemite' community. Too many too damn serious, too self-important and too touchy.) Relevance within the context of this website???? - I'm sorry but wtf? Last time I checked this was not a 'Reserved for self-declaring Thelemites only' site. In fact the laudable lack of partisanship is one of the main reasons I actually visit here rather than some of the many 'aligned' alternatives.

"Camlion" wrote:
"amadan-De" wrote:
[attempt to pull back on-topic] Perhaps this immanent manifesto will also have information worth having - time will tell. [/attempt to pull back on topic]
This thread is NOT off topic to the OP, which states:

"parzival" wrote:
It is completely possible to promote all kinds of things from initiation to community building to academics to freedom of the individual to spiritual evolution to book publishing to even the person of the Prophet himself and still completely miss the simple message of Thelema.

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

What is Thelema? How does it inform everyday life? How does it shape the world around us? To what end are we called to proclaim Thelema to every man, woman, and child? What exactly is the goal of being a Thelemite? After a hundred years since the revelation of the Book of the Law, what are we doing that promulgates the Law of Thelema to a world that still suffers under the cross of shame?

To that end, we write this Manifesto …"

You do know that that OP (apart from the ????) is a direct quote from the website in question and the thread was, I thought, regarding the nature of this as genuine or prank... Apparently I'm mistaken again...oh woe, better get me back to 'see things only as others see them' class..

"Camlion" wrote:
I can think of no problem on this planet that would not be corrected by the application of the Law of Thelema amongst its human population; that each individual knows and does their true Will, which is how I define "Thelemite."

....and you wonder why I am loath to discuss areas beyond your singular paradigm? Not worth the grief frankly. Have fun finding your Will, ultimately you'll discover it linked to your Testament.

Now, where is that beaker of 'wines that foam'?


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 2964
01/03/2011 10:56 pm  

Time to back out of this thread.

ein, do you have an extra pair of those Raybans?


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einDoppelganger
(@eindoppelganger)
Member
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 915
01/03/2011 11:11 pm  
"Azidonis" wrote:
Time to back out of this thread.

ein, do you have an extra pair of those Raybans?

For you brotherman, of course.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
02/03/2011 12:12 pm  
"amadan-De" wrote:
Have fun finding your Will, ultimately you'll discover it linked to your Testament.
"einDoppelganger" wrote:
Personally, I find the "delusion of coolness" less distasteful than the sense of spiritual superiority and haughtiness some "Thelemites" can display. The best ones seem to be the ones that shut the hell up about it and get on with things. Making something worthwhile other than a stream of incoherent babble about their spiritual path and finding their "TRUE WILL!!!!"

Accepting The Book of the Law, being the only one basic requirement to be regarded as a Thelemite, for the so-called Prophet of Thelema, indicates that Crowley regarded Thelemites as free to reject the 'True Will concept'.

"amadan-De" wrote:
wellredwellbred - do you know what a 'rhetorical question' is?

What Patriarch156 wrote in the "Promulgation and Establishment"-thread, answers the supposedly rethorical questions raised in www.thelemicmanifesto.org

The purpose for promulgation of the Law of Thelema along the lines of Crowley, is "for the words of the Law" to stir "a longing in someone that hears it" leading "them to begin to strike off (with or without our aid) their fetters ... ."

In the said thread, Patriarch156 points out that Crowley's interpretation of the Law of Thelema, agrees with the following:

"There is no problem on the planet that would not eventually be solved by the a-p-p-l-i-c-a-t-i-o-n of the Law of Thelema."

That is, the e-v-e-n-t-u-a-l goal for the promulgation of the Law of Thelema along the lines of Crowley, is the a-p-p-l-i-c-a-t-i-o-n of the Law of Thelema.

Few will have the will power needed for the disciplined longterm dedicated efforts required for the a-p-p-l-i-c-a-t-i-o-n of the Law of Thelema, which will take much more will power then that needed for einDoppelganger and Azidonis to stop trolling me, or for someone - like I do now - to give them both one first warning concerning this trolling.

Yet, Patriarch156 also points out in the "Promulgation and Establishment"-thread, that the so-called Holy Books of Thelema indicate that "the Law will always be for the very few of mankind", and that the said books "are empathic that most will reject it."

"Camlion" wrote:
I can think of no problem on this planet that would not be corrected by the application of the Law of Thelema amongst its human population; that each individual knows and does their true Will, which is how I define "Thelemite."
"amadan-De" wrote:
....and you wonder why I am loath to discuss areas beyond your singular paradigm? Not worth the grief frankly. Have fun finding your Will, ultimately you'll discover it linked to your Testament.

According to Crowley there were only one basic requirement to be regarded as a Thelemite: Accepting The Book of the Law. Yet, the said book's prophet of Thelema, Crowley, presents it, and/or Thelema and/or the Law of Thelema, as given to him from beyond this world by some God-like beings, as an all-in-one solution, to "regenerate the world" as it is - supposedly d-i-v-i-n-e-l-y - written in it. Like you amadan-De, the greater majority is likely to reject this.

"amadan-De" wrote:
Now, where is that beaker of 'wines that foam' ?

This is a nice example of using The Book of the Law as a source for comfort reading, myself i prefere the "eat rich foods and drink sweet wines" from the same verse you quoted. 😀

You amadan-De personally doing as you please - or Thelemites (= those who accept The Book of the Law) personally doing as they please - not caring at all about the a-p-p-l-i-c-a-t-i-o-n of the Law of Thelema, is something fine with me.

And that would apparently be fine with Crowley also, as Patriarch156 points out on the bottom of page 7 in the 'Thelema, a basis for human society?'-thread - http://www.lashtal.com/nuke/PNphpBB2-viewtopic-t-4680-postdays-0-postorder-asc-start-180.phtml - when mentioning something "Crowley indicates in his little known letter "Clear Crowley's Name Campaign" as well as elsewhere... ."

I guess you're just being honest about your non-interest in the a-p-p-l-i-c-a-t-i-o-n of the Law of Thelema along the lines of the so-called Prophet of Thelema, amadan-De. This is not an attempt to belittle you amadan-De, or anyone else for that matter, contrary to how einDoppelganger and Azidonis are trolling me and belittling me in this thread:

"einDoppelganger" wrote:
Rhubarb
"einDoppelganger" wrote:
PSS Incidentally I'm not referring to anyone specifically in this thread... Not even WRWB since I dont believe he is a real person... Rhubarb
"Azidonis" wrote:
I think WRWB is someone's crude attempt at creating a mysticism quoting program.
"einDoppelganger" wrote:
I honestly wonder if you aren't onto something here... his posts do read like the output of an almost functional AI.... : )

Enough is enough, from now on I will generously provide a new warning for each instance of someone trolling me or belittling me. And I do care so very, very, very much, for the membership status of both you einDoppelganger and you Azidonis, and all the rest of you. With boundless love, from all of me to all of you.


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einDoppelganger
(@eindoppelganger)
Member
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 915
02/03/2011 12:20 pm  
"wellredwellbred" wrote:
"amadan-De" wrote:
Have fun finding your Will, ultimately you'll discover it linked to your Testament.
"einDoppelganger" wrote:
Personally, I find the "delusion of coolness" less distasteful than the sense of spiritual superiority and haughtiness some "Thelemites" can display. The best ones seem to be the ones that shut the hell up about it and get on with things. Making something worthwhile other than a stream of incoherent babble about their spiritual path and finding their "TRUE WILL!!!!"

Accepting The Book of the Law, being the only one basic requirement to be regarded as a Thelemite, for the so-called Prophet of Thelema, indicates that Crowley regarded Thelemites as free to reject the 'True Will concept'.

"amadan-De" wrote:
wellredwellbred - do you know what a 'rhetorical question' is?

What Patriarch156 wrote in the "Promulgation and Establishment"-thread, answers the supposedly rethorical questions raised in www.thelemicmanifesto.org

The purpose for promulgation of the Law of Thelema along the lines of Crowley, is "for the words of the Law" to stir "a longing in someone that hears it" leading "them to begin to strike off (with or without our aid) their fetters ... ."

In the said thread, Patriarch156 points out that Crowley's interpretation of the Law of Thelema, agrees with the following:

"There is no problem on the planet that would not eventually be solved by the a-p-p-l-i-c-a-t-i-o-n of the Law of Thelema."

That is, the e-v-e-n-t-u-a-l goal for the promulgation of the Law of Thelema along the lines of Crowley, is the a-p-p-l-i-c-a-t-i-o-n of the Law of Thelema.

Few will have the will power needed for the disciplined longterm dedicated efforts required for the a-p-p-l-i-c-a-t-i-o-n of the Law of Thelema, which will take much more will power then that needed for einDoppelganger and Azidonis to stop trolling me, or for someone - like I do now - to give them both one first warning concerning this trolling.

Yet, Patriarch156 also points out in the "Promulgation and Establishment"-thread, that the so-called Holy Books of Thelema indicate that "the Law will always be for the very few of mankind", and that the said books "are empathic that most will reject it."

"Camlion" wrote:
I can think of no problem on this planet that would not be corrected by the application of the Law of Thelema amongst its human population; that each individual knows and does their true Will, which is how I define "Thelemite."
"amadan-De" wrote:
....and you wonder why I am loath to discuss areas beyond your singular paradigm? Not worth the grief frankly. Have fun finding your Will, ultimately you'll discover it linked to your Testament.

According to Crowley there were only one basic requirement to be regarded as a Thelemite: Accepting The Book of the Law. Yet, the said book's prophet of Thelema, Crowley, presents it, and/or Thelema and/or the Law of Thelema, as given to him from beyond this world by some God-like beings, as an all-in-one solution, to "regenerate the world" as it is - supposedly d-i-v-i-n-e-l-y - written in it. Like you amadan-De, the greater majority is likely to reject this.

"amadan-De" wrote:
Now, where is that beaker of 'wines that foam' ?

This is a nice example of using The Book of the Law as a source for comfort reading, myself i prefere the "eat rich foods and drink sweet wines" from the same verse you quoted. 😀

You amadan-De personally doing as you please - or Thelemites (= those who accept The Book of the Law) personally doing as they please - not caring at all about the a-p-p-l-i-c-a-t-i-o-n of the Law of Thelema, is something fine with me.

And that would apparently be fine with Crowley also, as Patriarch156 points out on the bottom of page 7 in the 'Thelema, a basis for human society?'-thread - http://www.lashtal.com/nuke/PNphpBB2-viewtopic-t-4680-postdays-0-postorder-asc-start-180.phtml - when mentioning something "Crowley indicates in his little known letter "Clear Crowley's Name Campaign" as well as elsewhere... ."

I guess you're just being honest about your non-interest in the a-p-p-l-i-c-a-t-i-o-n of the Law of Thelema along the lines of the so-called Prophet of Thelema, amadan-De. This is not an attempt to belittle you amadan-De, or anyone else for that matter, contrary to how einDoppelganger and Azidonis are trolling me and belittling me in this thread:

"einDoppelganger" wrote:
Rhubarb
"einDoppelganger" wrote:
PSS Incidentally I'm not referring to anyone specifically in this thread... Not even WRWB since I dont believe he is a real person... Rhubarb
"Azidonis" wrote:
I think WRWB is someone's crude attempt at creating a mysticism quoting program.
"einDoppelganger" wrote:
I honestly wonder if you aren't onto something here... his posts do read like the output of an almost functional AI.... : )

Enough is enough, from now on I will generously provide a new warning for each instance of someone trolling me or belittling me. And I do care so very, very, very much, for the membership status of both you einDoppelganger and you Azidonis, and all the rest of you. With boundless love, from all of me to all of you.

Rhubarb.


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alysa
(@alysa)
Member
Joined: 12 years ago
Posts: 648
02/03/2011 12:31 pm  

Rhubarb!


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
02/03/2011 3:39 pm  

I'll use my own moderator abilities to remove your one warning on ein and Azi. Rhubarb!!! You gonna give me one too? I'm shakin' in my boots! If we all really wanted to be dicks, we could have given you your three warnings long ago, wrwb, and your account would be closed.....we could still do that. Think about that and also about how long we have all put up with your asinine bullshit before you start giving warnings to long-time members here.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
02/03/2011 5:03 pm  

The total loss of any voice is a tragedy. The megaphone, another situation entirely.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
02/03/2011 5:15 pm  

Sems this is the person behind the site:

www.scarletcarnival.com


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