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newneubergOuch2
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15/02/2020 2:22 am  
Posted by: @therealrtc

[Apologies for the double-post. The edit function is, evidently, time-sensitive.]

@kidneyhawkWhen Crowley writes "all solved...even II: 76" he is bullshitting and keeping the show on the road. He knows Jones doesn't have the proper solution...because Crowley originally devised the riddle for himself to solve.”  Crowley was probably doubly-delighted with Achad’s work.  Firstly, it made some sense of his now-solutionless riddle (Crowley altered four characters between manuscript and typescript).  Secondly, it took attention away from the riddle’s original and now-toxic solution. 😖 

A new (convenient solution - a side upgrade).

 

And the altered letters from the original manuscript...

hmm...

sitting at a table yet again - playing with my wooden alphabet blocks. A scrabble set would also be convenient i guess.


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RuneLogIX
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15/02/2020 2:26 am  
Posted by: @newneubergouch2
Posted by: @therealrtc

[Apologies for the double-post. The edit function is, evidently, time-sensitive.]

@kidneyhawkWhen Crowley writes "all solved...even II: 76" he is bullshitting and keeping the show on the road. He knows Jones doesn't have the proper solution...because Crowley originally devised the riddle for himself to solve.”  Crowley was probably doubly-delighted with Achad’s work.  Firstly, it made some sense of his now-solutionless riddle (Crowley altered four characters between manuscript and typescript).  Secondly, it took attention away from the riddle’s original and now-toxic solution. 😖 

A new (convenient solution - a side upgrade).

 

And the altered letters from the original manuscript...

hmm...

sitting at a table yet again - playing with my wooden alphabet blocks. A scrabble set would also be convenient i guess.

I am meaning to write a guide to unix tools for dissecting Crowley texts but I have not gotten around to it. Perhaps if I get some more requests to do so I will write one here.

Force and Fire is not metaphorical.


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ignant666
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15/02/2020 11:43 am  

45 days counting down, 41 counting up...


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Michael Staley
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15/02/2020 1:02 pm  
Posted by: @newneubergouch2

And the altered letters from the original manuscript...

hmm...

Could you specify please what those alterations were?


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ignant666
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15/02/2020 1:19 pm  

There is the peculiar "G" in "ALGMOR", the 4 that could be a G in the first 24 (but not if AC habitually made his capital Gs ALGMOR-style), the X that could be a multiplication sign, and ignoring the curved lines above and beneath the second 24, and 89.

Whether these are "alterations" is pretty debatable. Handwriting is messy and sometimes ambiguous, but generally easily readable by the person who wrote it.


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Michael Staley
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15/02/2020 2:56 pm  
Posted by: @ignant666

There is the peculiar "G" in "ALGMOR", the 4 that could be a G in the first 24 (but not if AC habitually made his capital Gs ALGMOR-style), the X that could be a multiplication sign, and ignoring the curved lines above and beneath the second 24, and 89.

Whether these are "alterations" is pretty debatable. Handwriting is messy and sometimes ambiguous, but generally easily readable by the person who wrote it.

I don't think these are alterations. For an example of Crowley writing G in that fashion - the double bar - you need only look at the back of the dustjacket of Kenneth Grant's Remembering Aleister Crowley, where the envelope of a letter to him from Crowley is reproduced, and where he has rendered both the Gs in "G. K. Grant" in that manner. Grant preserved many of the envelopes of his letters from Crowley, and it's typical.

Yes, the X before 24 could be a multiplication sign, or the letter X. And yes, Crowley could have made more of an effort to have the curved lines above and below 24 and 89 reproduced typegraphically in the typesetting. However, the fact is that he also reproduced the manuscript, the last such reproduction being included with the first (1936) edition of The Equinox of the Gods; hardly the action of someone who was tampering with the riddle in order to obscure it. The manuscript has been reproduced since - for example, with Magical and Philosophical Commentaries on the Book of the Law.

For the last few minutes I have compared carefully the text reproduced in AL.II.76 with the manuscript reproduction in Magical and Philosophical Commentaries. Apart from the ambiguities listed by ignant, I can see nothing whatever to justify the assertion that there are "altered letters".

 

 


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RTC
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15/02/2020 3:39 pm  

@michael-staley - "I can see nothing whatever to justify the assertion that there are "altered letters"." - Should have gone to Specsavers... 🤓 

P.S. The debatable 'G' really is a 'G.'

 


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Michael Staley
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15/02/2020 3:54 pm  
Posted by: @therealrtc

Should have gone to Specsavers...

Then why not say which are the letters that have been altered?


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RTC
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15/02/2020 3:59 pm  

@michael-staley - "Then why not say which are the letters that have been altered?" - Oh, c'mon!  It's better that you self-discover the truth.  Starter... The second character was amended to a larger version of the same character.  Lutz noted another, a while back.  That only leaves three to find and it's not exactly a needle in a haystack, is it! 😖 

 


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Michael Staley
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15/02/2020 4:02 pm  
Posted by: @therealrtc

Oh, c'mon! It's better that you self-discover the truth.  Starter... The second character was amended to a larger version of the same character. Lutz noted another, a while back.  That only leaves three to find and it's not exactly a needle in a haystack, is it!

So why not list them?


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RTC
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15/02/2020 4:15 pm  

@michael-staley - "So why not list them?" - Why should I list what is plainly visible?  Five edits, of which one makes no difference (it becomes a larger version of the same number).  Please, don't make me say D'Oh!

@ignant666 - Think about the 'X' with reference to my Big, Red Thelemic Self-Destruct Button... but I thought we'd moved beyond that... 🤔 

but

 


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ignant666
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15/02/2020 4:33 pm  

The endless coy hinting continues. The not-delivering-the-goods ditto.

What does "a larger version of the same number" mean in English?


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Michael Staley
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15/02/2020 4:34 pm  
Posted by: @therealrtc

but I thought we'd moved beyond that

Me too.

So, in a nutshell, there are minor anomalies in the typeset rendition of the string of numbers and letters at AL.II.76, but since reproductions of the manuscript were included, anybody can access it without these anomalies. If this is what is meant by Crowley doing all that he could to obscure the "real" meaning of the cipher, it doesn't amount to much of an attempt, does it?


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RTC
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15/02/2020 7:40 pm  

@ignant666 - "The endless coy hinting continues. The not-delivering-the-goods ditto. What does "a larger version of the same number" mean in English?" - Just take a look at the f*****g manuscript and you will see that Crowley amended five of the riddle characters!  How hard is that, really.  Jeez, not a month ago Lutz noted that the '3' stared life as a question mark.

It means that the second character started life as a small-ish '6' and Crowley later over-wrote it as a larger '6.'  Just look at the manuscript!

@michael-staley - "it doesn't amount to much of an attempt, does it?"  Altering just a single character, or a decimal point, in a mathematical equation renders that formula useless.  So, no, it doesn't take much to scramble the original meaning, of anything.   


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Michael Staley
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15/02/2020 7:43 pm  
Posted by: @therealrtc

Jeez, not a month ago Lutz noted that the '3' stared life as a question mark.

That was his speculation, not a fact.


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Shiva
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15/02/2020 7:57 pm  
Posted by: @therealrtc

- Just take a look at the f*****g manuscript

Uh, oh!  It's (***) Potty-mouth time.

 


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ignant666
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15/02/2020 7:58 pm  

Just looked at the ms. repro in the Blue Brick (for the second time today) and just (again) not seeing these things.

Is your alleged solution dependent on interpreting the cypher characters in some way other than the (accurate) way they are reproduced in printed editions, @therealrtc?


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RTC
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15/02/2020 8:32 pm  

@shiva - 'Exasperation' is the word!

@ignant666 - Has the seventh character of the riddle (reproduced below), published as a 'K,' been amended, or not?

FB question

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hadgigegenraum
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15/02/2020 10:23 pm  

@therealrtc

.

@shiva - 'Exasperation' is the word!

Well now we know the word that is commensurate with a most relevant mystical state so revealed in this thread! Much Thanks....and Shiva gets the prize! Does this mean that we are in the  Ex-ion now a la Achad...!

@ignant666 - Has the seventh character of the riddle (reproduced below), published as a 'K,' been amended, or not?

-- attachment is not available --

Now as regards that letter so scanned, I would say K (Kay) though it does warrant study....what is more in question is the second lower case a, which could well have been an I, (eye).

Keep on having fun!

 


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RTC
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15/02/2020 10:44 pm  

@hadgigegenraum - "...though it does warrant study.... what is more in question is the second lower case a..." Could not agree more, and that's three out of the four.  In the space of an hour, "accurate" characters, set in stone for a century, are now open to "question" and even its poor cousin, "speculation" (@michael-staley).

@ignant666 - If you choose not to see these adjustments, well... that is your decision, but it doesn't in any way alter the fact of their existence. 🤓  

 


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newneubergOuch2
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15/02/2020 11:11 pm  

Hmm, along with the above hints - i guess we could take a look at the cover of RTC book that someone posted...

 

Over the years i have collected most of Crowleys works on paper, the bios, bios about related persons etc etc

its still fascinates and unfolds.

i am savoring this possible solution being slowly unfolded as i am enjoying the journey of it. Even though some stages have proved frustrating to me and ended up simple (with some help).

cue Homer Simpson ‘doh’ gif x10.

 

In my life i am often these days in my grumpy middle years more about the destination,

but i am enjoying the journey.

The manuscript and map of Cairo is easy enough to play around with. Either on computer or if technically not so good- print out the map and smaller Liber page on printer and hold it against a  window.

line it up here and there.

i have the full set of changed characters. But my scrabble spidey sense is short circuiting and i have been in cipher solving limbo for a week.

 

but i wouldn't have it either way - as i race the clock towards April 1st.

 

thanks to:

lashtal Paul (who lit the fire initially), Faustian and RTC


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Michael Staley
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16/02/2020 12:16 am  
Posted by: @therealrtc

Has the seventh character of the riddle (reproduced below), published as a 'K,' been amended, or not?

Amended from what to what, do you suppose?


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herupakraath
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16/02/2020 12:29 am  
Posted by: @therealrtc

@shiva - 'Exasperation' is the word!

@ignant666 - Has the seventh character of the riddle (reproduced below), published as a 'K,' been amended, or not?

FB question

No; the extra line was a byproduct of Crowley dragging his pen slightly while in a rush to record the next character. If anything it supports Crowley's account that he was receiving dictation. 

 

 


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newneubergOuch2
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RTC
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16/02/2020 10:13 am  

@herupakraath - "No; the extra line was a byproduct of Crowley dragging his pen slightly while in a rush to record the next character. If anything it supports Crowley's account that he was receiving dictation." - Ha ha ha ha... Spoken like a true uber-zealous Crowleyite.  It takes 'clutching at straws' to an entirely new dimension. You aren't actually serious, are you?😭   

 


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Michael Staley
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16/02/2020 11:54 am  
Posted by: @therealrtc

Spoken like a true uber-zealous Crowleyite.  It takes 'clutching at straws' to an entirely new dimension. You aren't actually serious, are you?

You're the one clutching at straws. You dismiss anyone who questions your latest case - formerly the watermark, then a confession by Rose Crowley, and now this - as a zealous Crowleyite. If your AL.II.76 theory comes to nothing, you'll move on to something else.

I'm open-minded to the possibility that Crowley fabricated The Book of the Law, as are many people I suspect; until I see proof, however, Crowley's account is for me the default. You, on the other hand, are not open-minded at all. You're convinced that Crowley did indeed so fabricate, and are trying angle after angle to prove it. It's not herupakraath that is "uber-zealous", but you - indeed, a more appropriate term is "obsessed".


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ignant666
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16/02/2020 12:35 pm  

44 days counting down to, it is increasingly obvious,  nothing much at all in the way of evidence, or 42 days of RTC being unable to come up with a straight answer on those pesky "DMS" GPS coordinates (this count is likely to continue ad infinitum).

Michael nails it with his post above: RTC is nothing but coy hints, hot air, bad jokes, and abuse directed against us "fanatics" who are "willfully blind" to the "Emperor's New Evidence".

This would be poor argumentation if the evidence were actually available. Since we have to accept on faith that the claimed evidence exists (and ignore any doubts raised by those other times), i don't know how RTC thinks his current campaign does anything but make him look foolish and desperate.


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RTC
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16/02/2020 1:02 pm  

@michael-staley - I, Aleister Crowley, declare upon my honour as a gentleman that I hold this revelation a million times more important than the discovery of the Wheel, or even of the Laws of Physics or Mathematics. – Remember that? Remember New World Religion”?  Problem is, Thelema doesn’t do what it says on the tin.  In fact, in over a century it hasn’t done anything.  You ask for proof, yet are blind to the complete absence of proof supporting Crowley’s own hyperbolic claims.  In my obsessive way, I decided to explore why a system (as you note) Crowley resolutely stuck with, stubbornly refused to ignite… and I identified the flaw.  I understand what Crowley was trying to say as I understand that the Cairo literature was his best attempt to define an experience wholly beyond his capacity to assimilate. I understand the Horus Toy™, which really does manifest potential of an order comparable with Crowley’s (above) sales pitch.  I am going with my foolish and desperate notions, because they work.  Of course, you are perfectly entitled to continue flogging not only a dead horse, but an installation art patchwork of assorted decaying limbs (by Frankenstein)… You hang onto your MANIO, I’m heading into the New Aeon.

@ignant666 – They aren’t GPS coordinates.  I ask again...  Has the seventh character of the riddle (reproduced above), published as a 'K,' been amended, or not?

 


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lashtal
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16/02/2020 1:06 pm  
42

Seen in context, II:76 does show signs of being written in haste - as does the whole page. Indeed, it's fair to say that many pages demonstrate transcription from dictation, with 'corrections' made as the result of mis-hearing. Of course, this doesn't give any confirmation about the nature - 'praeternatural' or otherwise - of the one doing the dictating.

Again seen in context and with substantial experience of interpreting AC's handwriting, II:76 appears to represent the following, with '24' and '89' bracketed above and below, apparently to identify that it's '24' and '89' that are intended, not '2', '4', '8' and '9':

4638 AB K 2 4 aLGMOR 3 Y

x [24] [89] RPSTOVAL .

Notes arising: 'AB' definitely appears deliberately 'conjoined'. The 'K' is certainly a 'K' with suspicions otherwise seeming to result from a simple double-stroke combined with magnifying a poor quality scan. The second 'A' in the verse is clearly intended to be lower-case. The 'G' is definitely a 'G', as evidenced by numerous other occurrences in Crowley's handwriting. The 'x' may or may not be lower-case. The final 'A' appears to be emphasised, as is the full-stop following 'L'. I understand that some have queried the second '3', using Photoshop to suggest it might previously have been a question mark. 

 

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ignant666
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16/02/2020 1:08 pm  

For one who is so unwilling to answer questions from others, you are very insistent: No, the K does not look altered/"amended" to me, it looks like it was written in a hurry.

So, will you now, in return, answer a really simple yes/no question i asked yesterday?:

Posted by: @ignant666

Is your alleged solution dependent on interpreting the cypher characters in some way other than the (accurate) way they are reproduced in printed editions, @therealrtc?


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RTC
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16/02/2020 1:11 pm  

@lashtal - Ooooooh, you breaker of sacred vows of silence, you! 😬 

 


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Michael Staley
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16/02/2020 1:40 pm  
Posted by: @therealrtc

I ask again...  Has the seventh character of the riddle (reproduced above), published as a 'K,' been amended, or not?

I ask again - what you do suggest it has been amended from and amended to.


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Michael Staley
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16/02/2020 1:43 pm  
Posted by: @therealrtc

Ooooooh, you breaker of sacred vows of silence, you!

Do you have anything to say about the post apart from your sneering?


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RTC
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16/02/2020 2:04 pm  

@michael-scaley – Do you have anything to say about the post apart from your sneering?” – No, I got nothing… 😯 Oh, hang on a minute…

@lashtalwith '24' and '89' bracketed above and below, apparently to identify that it's '24' and '89' that are intended, not '2', '4', '8' and '9': – Well, I guess that’s sort of possible, but why not keep matters simple and ask if the squiggles suggest ‘rotation.’ Now, there’s a thought… and what do you know, they do!  How praeter-human isn’t that!

@ignant666 – See below.

but

 


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lashtal
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16/02/2020 2:16 pm  
Posted by: @therealrtc

@lashtalwith '24' and '89' bracketed above and below, apparently to identify that it's '24' and '89' that are intended, not '2', '4', '8' and '9': – Well, I guess that’s sort of possible, but why not keep matters simple and ask if the squiggles suggest ‘rotation.’ Now, there’s a thought… and what do you know, they do!  How praeter-human isn’t that!

LOL! Now, at last, I think I understand where you're going with this...

So, just to confirm, your solution requires that you misinterpret ⁐ as 'Rotation', when AC uses it widely elsewhere in its actual role as a standard proofreader's mark indicating: 'Tie words together, eliminating a space.'

That's actually quite amusing.

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hadgigegenraum
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16/02/2020 2:20 pm  

More fun on the thread I see as RTC, who may or may not be the Richard T. Cole of Led Zeppelin super hype or infamy, continues to bring controversy and debate in challenging Aleister Crowley fandom with the game of pin the 'fakey' tail on the Beast.

At least AL has given way to L or is it hell, as the advertised April Fools joke is what 44 days and counting, so I suppose blood is in the waters, or has been DNA proven from the manuscripts ink, but Bull's blood aside, Rose was not bleeding at the time if I recall that she was said to be pregnant. Of course 'Horus Toys' laying around the apartment might have done some damage... 

Now that I have opened myself up to debate about the attributions of the number 44, I do welcome the better informed Qabalistic experts, which do lurk and present on a site I believe is not supposed to be a qabalistic forum. Be that as it may or may not, we are playing around with examining a particular thread of numbers and letters, to Which  Liber L vel Legis II. 76 could just as well have been a continuation of II. 75 if one were to question the numbering of the verses, where the said string of letters in question or not in question, is found as an indentation of the verses above it.

Now the present battle drawn between the 'chance shape of the letters" orthodoxy verses 'it was a scribbled con job' heretic, the puzzlers and others drawn into the fray, I can say that yes there is more to look at when you come to think of it....

'So now for something completely different'.... lets look at (24) (89).....Thanks Rich for the 8 looks like it is almost tipped on its side where it would then be a Mobius or infinity sign. Now since 2=0 and 0=2 then we could say that 4 composed of 2 + 2 =4 that then means that 0 + 0 =4 and that since the axiom that 'Every number is infinite" then 4=0 too if we take 0 to be an assumed infinity to which 2=0 time 4=0 equals 8, which when turned on it side is as has been identified as 0 that then 8 times 9 equals 72 which has certain cabalistic attributions but is not the concern here, but putting the shemp-hash-or-ass aside, 8=0 then as a series suggested then 9 would be one too, and if it is one too, then it too is a two and thus it is infinite.....to sum up (24) then is 4 modified by naught and thus 9 is modified the same way, which ultimately gives us naught or not aught or something like that or not, or I will have to reveal what the line drawn really means....

No I have not been drinking by the eight and ninety rules of the art, but perhaps that is the street address for a pub in Cairo where the whole art might have been divined, what on Omar Khayyam street! Now the Marriott!

93

HG

 


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16/02/2020 2:24 pm  

@lashtal - Lucky, indeed, that Aiwass was so intimately familiar with editorial notation (and yet so lacking in other areas).  Though, also odd that Aiwass went to such pains with this particular pair, yet nowhere else.  Hmmm... More amusing than my holiday snap, or about the same?

 

FB question

@hadgigegenraum - Erm, I'd stick with the amusingly simplistic 'rotation.' 😊 

  

 


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hadgigegenraum
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16/02/2020 2:32 pm  

@therealrtc

Brilliant!!!

I do though wish that the resolution on the numbers on the buttons had been clearer or better clarified when I asked.

This looks like we have also the Faustian hint concerning the lining up with the Pyramids at play if I recall that hint...

Thanks!

HG

 


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lashtal
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16/02/2020 2:34 pm  
Posted by: @therealrtc

Lucky, indeed, that Aiwass was so intimately familiar with editorial notation

Unlucky, rather, that you don't appear to have been. When taking down dictation, of course, it's the scribe who needs to understand 'editorial notation', not the speaker.

Oh dear, oh dear...

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hadgigegenraum
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16/02/2020 2:36 pm  

@therealrtc

Yes the simplistic rotation again is brilliant, better yet it is simple, conforming to basic directional markers rather than GPS points...

 


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16/02/2020 2:37 pm  

@lashtal - If that's all you have, you are welcome to it... Do I get another "Oh dear, oh dear" for my holiday snap?

@hadgigegenraum - Finally! 😉 

 


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lashtal
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16/02/2020 2:39 pm  
Posted by: @therealrtc

@lashtal - If that's all you have, you are welcome to it... Do I get another "Oh dear, oh dear" for my holiday snap?

😉

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ignant666
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16/02/2020 2:50 pm  

FB question

What happened to the "rotation" you say the squiggles suggest? Shouldn't the respective numbers above be, "post-rotation", 42 and 98, not the "un-rotated" 24 and 89 you use?

Also, why aren't the lines at 24 degrees and 89 degrees, rather than at 24 degrees and (24 + 89) degrees? Looks like 89 degrees would have us back in the middle of Soccer Field #2 at the Gezira Sporting Club, where the first set of GPS/"DMS" coordinates you posted pointed to.

Ignoring these issues for the moment, what is the significance of the above map lines, and what determines the zero point?


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APOSTATES
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16/02/2020 2:52 pm  

Well, this is not in direct connection with tread but it is interesting enough (to me) in this contest of gematry (the solution of the cyphre).

Before fr. AcHD discovered his AL key, the Book of the Law was technicaly called LIBER L VEL LEGIS. Hebrew gematria:

LIBER 30+10+2+5+200 / L 30 / VEL 6+5+30 / LEGIS 30+5+3+10+300= 666

Now when AcHD pulled out A (in AL, not L anymore),  the counting is altered  to 667.

 


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Michael Staley
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16/02/2020 3:05 pm  
Posted by: @nassah

Now when AcHD pulled out A (in AL, not L anymore),  the counting is altered  to 667.

There's always one.


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lashtal
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16/02/2020 3:07 pm  
Posted by: @ignant666

What happened to the "rotation" you say the squiggles suggest? Shouldn't the respective numbers above be, "post-rotation", 42 and 98, not the "un-rotated" 24 and 89 you use?

Good question.

Mind you, it's also perhaps worth asking why RTC introduced readers of his 'Bogus' book to II:76 with this 'manipulated' scan:

 

Screenshot 2020 02 16 at 14.55.22

 

'RSVP'?

 

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RTC
 RTC
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16/02/2020 3:11 pm  

@ignant666Ignoring this issue for the moment, what is the significance of the above map lines, and what determines the zero point? – The zero point is encoded (with equal precision to other features on my holiday snap) in the riddle.  So, start at the zero point and rotate by 24deg.  Then, rotate a  further 89deg – Precisely as specified by Crowley... Rotation, everywhere! (Bah, humbug to notions of editorial prompts).  As I understand, there’s some slight chance of a publication being released on 01 April, which purportedly clarifies these matters.

@lashtal – I’m still waiting for my pictorial Oh dear, oh dear...

@nassah – How ironic is that!  Mind you, Aiwass did warn ol’ Fakey not to faff.  Oh dear, oh dear... 😖 

@ignant666 – They aren’t GPS coordinates.

@michael-staleyThere's always one.” - ... and one who comes after. 🤣  


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lashtal
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16/02/2020 3:14 pm  
Posted by: @therealrtc

So, start at the zero point and rotate by 24deg.  Then, rotate a  further 89deg – Precisely as specified by Crowley...

Or, perhaps more 'precisely', just 'eliminate a space'?

LOL.

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RTC
 RTC
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16/02/2020 3:28 pm  

@lashtal - Perhaps, though your interpretation goes nowhere.  Conversely mine goes straight to the heart of ol' Fakey's Master of the Universe plan... Take your pick.

So, Crowley's frantically trying to keep up, yet has the presence of mind (and time) to think (mid-sentence) 'Oh, must slip in those four editorial marks lest I forget later what the numbers mean.'  Yeah, right. LOL. 

 


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ignant666
(@ignant666)
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16/02/2020 3:36 pm  
Posted by: @therealrtc

Precisely as specified by Crowley...

This is pure wishful thinking.


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