Pronunciation of Jo...
 
Notifications
Clear all

Pronunciation of John Symonds' family name?  

  RSS

belmurru
(@belmurru)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 1025
03/08/2020 9:23 am  

It occurs to me that I've never heard "Symonds" pronounced by anyone who knew how he pronounced it. I am sure some on here can tell me. Is the /i/ sound short or long?

I.e. Is it like "Simon's" as in "Simon says"? (/i/ like "eye" or "sigh.")

Or is it like the "simm" in "simmer," so like "Simmons"? 

I realize that all my life, my default pronunciation has been with the short /i/, "Simmons." (no particular /d/ sound either).

This is like when I learned, I forget where, that "Boleskine" is pronounced "Bo-LES-kin," not "bowl-skyne," as I naïvely did for decades. 

 


Quote
Shiva
(@shiva)
Not a Rajah
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 5034
03/08/2020 4:56 pm  

I have always used "sigh," because the lady who introduced me to his books said, "Sigh-monds," and she was from Britain. But that doesn't mean he didn't pronounce it "see-mints."

 


ReplyQuote
ignant666
(@ignant666)
Tangin
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 3139
03/08/2020 5:05 pm  

I always thought the "S", and the "D", were silent, and the "O" pronounced as in "women", and said it "I-min" (rhymes with "hymen"), but what do i know?

Such is the fate of the auto-didact.


ReplyQuote
Alan_OBrien
(@alan_obrien)
Member
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 226
03/08/2020 5:19 pm  

There are two Irish names, Smyth and Smythe, and they are both pronounced Smith.

There is a problem with surnames: the possessors of the surname like to tell other people how that name is pronounced. But how do they know? I suppose their Mums or Dads might have told them... But is Cholmondley really pronounced Chumley? Is Menzies pronounced Mingish?

What leeway do we have in telling other people how to pronounce our names?

It is possible that Symonds is like Simmons, with a d.

I have always said it in my head as Simons with a d, as in simple Simon.


ReplyQuote
belmurru
(@belmurru)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 1025
04/08/2020 5:43 pm  
Posted by: @shiva

I have always used "sigh," because the lady who introduced me to his books said, "Sigh-monds," and she was from Britain. But that doesn't mean he didn't pronounce it "see-mints."

 

That's what I thought, or at least heard somewhere. But it's a scrap of memory, I don't know where. I guess I could searh Youtube for videos of him speaking, maybe there is a person introducing him who uses it. 


ReplyQuote
belmurru
(@belmurru)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 1025
04/08/2020 5:51 pm  
Posted by: @ignant666

I always thought the "S", and the "D", were silent, and the "O" pronounced as in "women", and said it "I-min" (rhymes with "hymen"), but what do i know?

Such is the fate of the auto-didact.

Exactly, the auto-didact, which describes every educated person, because they keep on educating themselves by the written word. You don't learn about the Assyrian empire by going there and experiencing it yourself. It's all words. 

Some ancient names don't have a "correct," or even consensus, pronunciation. For instance, I used to call Sennacherib, king of Assyria, like it looked to me: "Sen-ACK-e-rib." For years. Then I took at course with the esteemed Assriologist Larry Stager, and he lectured on "SNACK-a-rib." 

Moral- I still say "Sen-ACK-e-rib." 

I read something that touched my heart lately, it said "Don't mock someone when they mispronounce a word: it means they learned it by reading." 


bgruagach liked
ReplyQuote
belmurru
(@belmurru)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 1025
04/08/2020 5:54 pm  
Posted by: @alan_obrien

There are two Irish names, Smyth and Smythe, and they are both pronounced Smith.

There is a problem with surnames: the possessors of the surname like to tell other people how that name is pronounced. But how do they know? I suppose their Mums or Dads might have told them... But is Cholmondley really pronounced Chumley? Is Menzies pronounced Mingish?

What leeway do we have in telling other people how to pronounce our names?

It is possible that Symonds is like Simmons, with a d.

I have always said it in my head as Simons with a d, as in simple Simon.

All I want to know is how he, and his friends, pronounced it. That's what I would mean, in this instance, by "the right way to say his name."

If you say it like the /i/ in "Simon," then that's two, with Shiva's British lady. The consensus is growing...


ReplyQuote
belmurru
(@belmurru)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 1025
04/08/2020 6:02 pm  
Posted by: @ignant666

I always thought the "S", and the "D", were silent, and the "O" pronounced as in "women", and said it "I-min" (rhymes with "hymen"), but what do i know?

Such is the fate of the auto-didact.

Wait - you "Simon" like in "Simple Simon," but don't even pronounce the final /s/? I hadn't even thought of that. 


ReplyQuote
christibrany
(@christibrany)
Yuggothian
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 2611
04/08/2020 6:04 pm  

It's probably incorrect, but I always say it sim-unds. ... 

dictionary.com agrees. Not that that's correct either:

 sim-uhndz

 


ReplyQuote
ignant666
(@ignant666)
Tangin
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 3139
04/08/2020 6:07 pm  

No, i was saying that both "S"s, and the "D", are silent, so "I-Min".

Or, possibly, "Sigh-munds", if i were to be less facetious. But i have never heard anyone else say this person's name that i can recall, just assuming it is pronounced like others with the same name that i have heard pronounced.


ReplyQuote
belmurru
(@belmurru)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 1025
04/08/2020 6:15 pm  
Posted by: @christibrany

It's probably incorrect, but I always say it sim-unds. ... 

dictionary.com agrees. Not that that's correct either:

 sim-uhndz

 

That's how I've always said it, to myself and others. I've never heard or talked about him from anyone who knew him or knew second-hand how it was pronounced, that's all. And I believe that I remember somebody who was in the know - maybe it was Churton in a video? -say it like the name "Simon," of course with the final /s/.


ReplyQuote
belmurru
(@belmurru)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 1025
04/08/2020 6:18 pm  
Posted by: @ignant666

No, i was saying that both "S"s, and the "D", are silent, so "I-Min".

Or, possibly, "Sigh-munds", if i were to be less facetious. But i have never heard anyone else say this person's name that i can recall, just assuming it is pronounced like others with the same name that i have heard pronounced.

Sorry, I didn't understand you the first time. You mean that you didn't/don't even pronounce the first, "capital" S? I find that highly counterintuitive, even for an auto-didact (who generally have nothing but intuition go on when pronouncing unfamiliar words, like me with Yeats, whose name I always pronounced "Yeets," until I learned better).

I do follow your "less facetious" Sigh-munds, though (presuming the /d/ is silent). So here we have a majority of three out of five.


ReplyQuote
ignant666
(@ignant666)
Tangin
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 3139
04/08/2020 6:25 pm  

To be clear, i was making a joke about names not pronounced as they are spelled. I do not and never have pronounced John Symonds name "I-Min".

All the Symondses i ever heard the names of pronounced did pronounce the "D", thus my saying "Sigh-munds". All these people were most likely Americans from the northeast, for whatever that may be worth.

For some reason, it seems equally clear to me that the almost identically-spelled UK mystery author Julian Symons' name is pronounced the same way as that of Gene Simmons of KISS, ie "Sim-ins".

Probably i am saying both Brits' names wrong; Gene Simmons i'm sure of, he's from Queens. I used to drink in Peter Criss' sister's bar in Greenpoint (Brooklyn, USA)

 


ReplyQuote
belmurru
(@belmurru)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 1025
04/08/2020 6:31 pm  
Posted by: @ignant666

To be clear, i was making a joke about names not pronounced as they are spelled. I do not and never have pronounced John Symonds name "I-Min".

All the Symondses i ever heard the names of pronounced did pronounce the "D", thus my saying "Sigh-munds". All these people were most likely Americans from the northeast, for whatever that may be worth.

For some reason, it seems equally clear to me that the almost identically-spelled UK mystery author Julian Symons' name is pronounced the same way as that of Gene Simmons of KISS, ie "Sim-ins".

 

Glad we cleared that up. Don't underestimate my inability to grasp subtle humor. 

I'm sure all those Symons, Simmons, Simonds, Symonds, are the "same" name, etymologically. But that is irrelevant. I heard a British pronunciation of the name spelled Saint-John, as "sinjin." If that's how they say their own name, who am I to argue? (it's clearly an anglicized French pronunciation, but it's jarring to see the name as such, in English, but hear it pronounced frenchly).


ReplyQuote
christibrany
(@christibrany)
Yuggothian
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 2611
04/08/2020 6:33 pm  

Knowing most Brits its probably Sigh-munds/Sigh-muns.  

😉 

 

After all, Isn't St. John something like sin-jin? lol


ReplyQuote
christibrany
(@christibrany)
Yuggothian
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 2611
04/08/2020 6:34 pm  

@belmurru

 

 

Thats bizarre you thought of the St. John thing the saem time I did. 


ReplyQuote
belmurru
(@belmurru)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 1025
04/08/2020 6:40 pm  
Posted by: @christibrany

@belmurru

 

 

Thats bizarre you thought of the St. John thing the saem time I did. 

We must have watched the same movie or series, whichever it was, and thought the same thing. It was really bizarre to me. 

But it was a while ago, maybe two years, so, yes, it is quite an astonishing coincidence that we thought of it at the same time.


ReplyQuote
christibrany
(@christibrany)
Yuggothian
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 2611
04/08/2020 6:42 pm  

@belmurru

 

Mad Men? 

 

 

Edit to say: i know it's dinner time over yonder but we need some more Brits in the haus to help uz viss zees ja. 


ReplyQuote
belmurru
(@belmurru)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 1025
04/08/2020 6:43 pm  
Posted by: @christibrany

@belmurru

 

Mad Men? 

 

 

Edit to say: i know it's dinner time over yonder but we need some more Brits in the haus to help uz viss zees ja. 

I didn't watch every episode, very irregular and hardly comprehensive, so I can't give an affirmative on that.


ReplyQuote
belmurru
(@belmurru)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 1025
04/08/2020 6:46 pm  
Posted by: @christibrany

@belmurru

 

Mad Men? 

 

 

Edit to say: i know it's dinner time over yonder but we need some more Brits in the haus to help uz viss zees ja. 

I'm in France, it's just a quarter to eight, so unless our native Brits "eat with the chickens," as the French say, they should be able to contribute. Paul? Michael Staley? 


ReplyQuote
christibrany
(@christibrany)
Yuggothian
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 2611
04/08/2020 6:47 pm  

@belmurru

 

Well I don't think 1847 is too late for dinner but maybe they are doing the washing up. 

Calling all Tommies.  Enough spam from me. 


ReplyQuote
belmurru
(@belmurru)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 1025
04/08/2020 6:56 pm  
Posted by: @christibrany

@belmurru

 

Well I don't think 1847 is too late for dinner but maybe they are doing the washing up. 

Calling all Tommies.  Enough spam from me. 

Late? I meant early. I forgot what time Americans eat... here it's around 8 pm, often later. Hard for me to get used to, I don't like to go to bed on a very full stomach. So I stay up very late. In Spain it's worse, they can eat dinner at 10 pm. It's because of the stupid standard time they're on, which is the same as ours, which is Central European Time. France and Spain - which is further west than France - should be AT LEAST on GMT, the same as the UK. Spain could handle an hour later. 


ReplyQuote
christibrany
(@christibrany)
Yuggothian
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 2611
04/08/2020 7:02 pm  

@belmurru

 

My wife and I were always having this discussion when we first got married. I grew up in Northern Europe, where we would eat fairly early for the rest of the continent as it got dark earlier, like maybe 1800 or 1900.

In Portugal they eat late too, like 2000 or 2100.

Now that we are old (lol) we sometimes are starving by the time we got off work here in the States and will eat as early as 1700 which is a bit embarrassing but hunger is hunger. Then on weekend we are busy having fun so it will be more around 1900. 

Earliest I would ever eat dinner was 1600 but thats because it was in the military and we had been up since 0300 or 0400 if we even slept. 

I think eating much past 1900 or 2000 is really bad for your body.

Symonds.

I am at work and it is kind of slow...


ReplyQuote
belmurru
(@belmurru)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 1025
04/08/2020 7:14 pm  
Posted by: @christibrany

@belmurru

 

My wife and I were always having this discussion when we first got married. I grew up in Northern Europe, where we would eat fairly early for the rest of the continent as it got dark earlier, like maybe 1800 or 1900.

In Portugal they eat late too, like 2000 or 2100.

Now that we are old (lol) we sometimes are starving by the time we got off work here in the States and will eat as early as 1700 which is a bit embarrassing but hunger is hunger. Then on weekend we are busy having fun so it will be more around 1900. 

Earliest I would ever eat dinner was 1600 but thats because it was in the military and we had been up since 0300 or 0400 if we even slept. 

I think eating much past 1900 or 2000 is really bad for your body.

Symonds.

I am at work and it is kind of slow...

I agree about late eating. For military or under any discipline (including working night shifts) of course those situations break the general civilian rule.

In any case, MY wife just got home from her badminton play (she's the president of the club), which got re-started after Covid-shit, and still has all the precautions - so I'm going to dinner now. I'll cut the tomatoes.


ReplyQuote
christibrany
(@christibrany)
Yuggothian
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 2611
04/08/2020 7:16 pm  

*gasp* not RAW TOMATOES?!

the horror....

/sarc


ReplyQuote
Shiva
(@shiva)
Not a Rajah
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 5034
04/08/2020 8:28 pm  
Posted by: @belmurru

it is quite an astonishing coincidence that we thought of it at the same time.

Oh, it happens all the time in metaphysics (telepathy) and science (arguments and torts about who was first follow all new discoveries).


ReplyQuote
belmurru
(@belmurru)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 1025
04/08/2020 9:21 pm  
Posted by: @shiva
Posted by: @belmurru

it is quite an astonishing coincidence that we thought of it at the same time.

Oh, it happens all the time in metaphysics (telepathy) and science (arguments and torts about who was first follow all new discoveries).

It's true, I felt the twinge of a vibe, and had to edit my post with the Saint John "sinjin" example, before the edit-window expired. So there was definitely a mutual harmony there. 

But nobody has ever admitted they pronounced Yeats "Yeets," no matter how many times I've posted about it. Not here maybe, but in those other places where voices rise and fall.


ReplyQuote
Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 4054
04/08/2020 10:41 pm  
Posted by: @belmurru

It occurs to me that I've never heard "Symonds" pronounced by anyone who knew how he pronounced it. I am sure some on here can tell me. Is the /i/ sound short or long?

Over the years, John Symonds cropped up in my conversations with both Kenneth and Steffi Grant. They pronounced the name sigh-munds, the "i" sound being long. They were friends with John Symonds and his wife for many decades, so had it straight from the horse's mouth, as it were.

 

 


ReplyQuote
belmurru
(@belmurru)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 1025
04/08/2020 11:06 pm  
Posted by: @michael-staley
Posted by: @belmurru

It occurs to me that I've never heard "Symonds" pronounced by anyone who knew how he pronounced it. I am sure some on here can tell me. Is the /i/ sound short or long?

Over the years, John Symonds cropped up in my conversations with both Kenneth and Steffi Grant. They pronounced the name sigh-munds, the "i" sound being long. They were friends with John Symonds and his wife for many decades, so had it straight from the horse's mouth, as it were.

 

 

Thank you very much, Mr. Staley! I thought you might have heard it straight from the horse's mouth, as it were. 

Now I must reconfigure my brain, like I did for Boleskine and Yeats, to say it correctly. Still haven't got "Thelema" though.


ReplyQuote
ignant666
(@ignant666)
Tangin
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 3139
04/08/2020 11:24 pm  

I have heard "Thel*-uh-muh","Thel-uh-ma", "Thee-lee-muh", "Thee-lee-ma", "Thel-lay-muh", "Thel-lay-ma".

Before Shiva says "Wait, i thought you told me you had never discussed AC/Thelema face-to-face with anyone who wasn't a heroin addict before you visited us, how have you heard so many different pronunciations?": there are a great many heroin addicts interested in these topics in NYC. Two of them now run, or are high honchos in, two big famous orders, not that they were my pals, but they sold me lots of books, and we went to some of the same parties and shows.

*rhymes with "bell"


ReplyQuote
Shiva
(@shiva)
Not a Rajah
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 5034
05/08/2020 12:29 am  

@ignant666, et al:

The Word of the Law is Theh - Lee - Mah.

All other pronunciations will be denied.

Yes, I am/was the first person Ignant ever knew (spoke to in confidence of his veracity) who was "into" Crowley - who was not a heroin user. This is what he told me, in person, (in confidence of veracity), when he came to New Mexico, The Land of Enchantment, to see the ufo that has never been seen since before he came and left. However, he did see the Tomé Jail, which is our nearest tourist attraction.

image

An older picture.

image

Visitors arriving here without the password (currently "Thelema" - Pronounced "Theh-Lee-Mah" in a flat non-accented dialect of mid-USA America English, with a Greek twist) are assured of upscale accommodations just minutes from our Kiblah Kaaba Qliphoth Clerkhouse Fortress place.


ReplyQuote
djedi
(@djedi)
𒇽𒅗𒅗𒈠
Joined: 11 months ago
Posts: 343
05/08/2020 4:28 am  
Posted by: @shiva

Theh - Lee - Mah.

Ah, I'm afraid I must contradict you here, Frater Shiva. You propose the modern, iotacized and degenerated pronunciation. When I was taught the Attic dialect of Classical Greek, I learned that the ancients, in their incontrovertible wisdom, pronounced the eta like a long A, as in bait and wait. With the acute accent over the epsilon, the astute speaker also must raise his musical pitch there and for the rest of the word.

(And "Thelema" is a word in Classical Greek, though rare, so let no one tell you different.)

The pronunciation is,

Theh - Lay - Mah


ReplyQuote
Jamie J Barter
(@jamiejbarter)
Member
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 1585
05/08/2020 8:04 am  

Yes, Beaulieu is most definitely pronounced "Bewlay" and Featherstonehaugh "Fanshaw"...

Oh, we were discussing Symonds?  In that case, I also have always come across it pronounced

sigh-munds, the "i" sound being long

"There is division hither homeward", and spellingpronunciation is defunct?

Norma N Joy Conquest

 


ReplyQuote
belmurru
(@belmurru)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 1025
05/08/2020 8:19 am  
Posted by: @ignant666

I have heard "Thel*-uh-muh","Thel-uh-ma", "Thee-lee-muh", "Thee-lee-ma", "Thel-lay-muh", "Thel-lay-ma".

 

*rhymes with "bell"

This is my lazy default pronunciation since forever. No music, or historical accuracy at all. I'd be satisfied to pronounce it like Crowley did, if I knew what that was.

Kenneth Grant and Grady McMurtry must have gotten their pronunciations from AC himself, so I'll assume that the standard "the-LEE-muh" is respresentative of how he said it.

"th" as in "thing," "e" as in "bet," "uh" as in "shush."


ReplyQuote
Jamie J Barter
(@jamiejbarter)
Member
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 1585
05/08/2020 4:12 pm  
Posted by: @belmurru

Still haven't got "Thelema" though.

I've also heard it pronounced "Thelly-muh" (as in Telly, muh) and "The/Thee Lame Urgh"!  

Endless variations, it seems! To each one's own an choose ye well...

N Joy


ReplyQuote
belmurru
(@belmurru)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 1025
05/08/2020 4:24 pm  
Posted by: @jamiejbarter
Posted by: @belmurru

Still haven't got "Thelema" though.

I've also heard it pronounced "Thelly-muh" (as in Telly, muh) and "The/Thee Lame Urgh"!  

Endless variations, it seems...!

N Joy

How about your pronunciation, in casual conversation? I'm trying to move to what seems to be the canonical pronunciation, "the-LEE-muh" (/th/ as in "thing"), but my bland North American pronunciation, "the-luh-muh" is hard to shake. It's just easy, and lazy.

By "canonical" I mean as I've heard from people who have some kind of "apostolic succession," and therefore presumably reflect their tearchers' pronunciation, which reflected their teachers', which reflected AC's. 

I honestly forgot how my own Lodge Master pronounced it in the 1980s, but he was initated by Grady, who would have said it like Crowley said it, presumably.


ReplyQuote
William Thirteen
(@williamthirteen)
Member
Joined: 10 years ago
Posts: 1090
11/08/2020 2:22 pm  
Posted by: @belmurru

You don't learn about the Assyrian empire by going there and experiencing it yourself.

definitely not with the current travel restrictions!


ReplyQuote
ignant666
(@ignant666)
Tangin
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 3139
12/08/2020 1:18 am  
Posted by: @williamthirteen

not with the current travel restrictions!

Those ancient Assyrians haven't received any visitors for literally years.


ReplyQuote
Share: