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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
09/10/2013 10:07 am  

93

Hello from Indonesia, I had been learning Thelema's Law, Philosophy and Way of Life since some months ago.

I was coming from Atheism since some moment ago before I decided to look upon Thelema, I had been contemplating on finding my way to study the Law. Having been feeling enough of the religious abuse of the Islamic majority here, I turn to atheism to find solace. Now I see it is not enough, so I go post-theist and declare atheism is just as narrow as theism. I was raised up in Roman Catholicism before I had the thought to see the other way.

I had been trying to explain Thelema to fellow Indonesians in my native language in my blog here, as I unravel this journey. For now, I am reading from original sources of the work, plus the book "The Mystical and Magical System of the A∴A∴". Right now, I had been contemplating about whether I need to join the order or not.

Anyway, I had been making Thelemic arts from my effort these past few days, maybe I'll post it on another thread at this forum. Well, I had the header version in my blog though, so maybe I'll post the bigger version some other time. Until later...

93, 93/93


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lashtal
(@lashtal)
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09/10/2013 10:26 am  

Welcome to LAShTAL.COM.

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LAShTAL


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jamie barter
(@jamie-barter)
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Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 1690
09/10/2013 11:38 am  

“We accept you, we accept you, one of us, one of us!”

Welcome doyour93.  (You are well come).

"doyour93" wrote:
... I go post-theist and declare atheism is just as narrow as theism.

“Post-Theism" is an interesting notion which appears to transcend and go beyond the available options of atheism and theism with a sort of “been there, done that and bought the t-shirt” implication to it?

"doyour93" wrote:
... I was raised up in Roman Catholicism before I had the thought to see the other way.

“The other way”?  Don’t tell me you were a S*Tanist, doyourownthing - I mean, 93! (Hopefully you will indulge me my little joke here?!  Sometimes I can't help myself :D)

"doyour93" wrote:
... Anyway, I had been making Thelemic arts from my effort these past few days, maybe I'll post it on another thread at this forum. ...

Good luck with your “Thelemic arts” you didn’t specify in what direction that is, although the thing which immediately springs to mind is drawing/ painting?! “Thelemic” art, whether done by the eight & ninety rules or not, is always worth checking out and I look forward to doing so with yours at some future date…

All the beast for neow,
Norma N. Joy Conquest.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
09/10/2013 11:57 am  

Welcome doyour93.

I used to live in Jakarta as a child many moons ago.

I can't image that there are many resident in Indonesia who profess to be Thelemites? Correct me if I am wrong.

Magmus


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
09/10/2013 12:05 pm  
"jamie barter" wrote:
“Post-Theism" is an interesting notion which appears to transcend and go beyond the available options of atheism and theism with a sort of “been there, done that and bought the t-shirt” implication to it?

I don't know what to say of these atheists. I don't say it bad, as they are in some way are releasing the mass from the stranglehold of old Aeonic religions.

As of now, the world is facing a clash between the so called forces of "science" which are mostly atheists, agnostics and non-believers vs that of "religion" which take the manifestation of very religious politicians, lobbyist, preachers, you know the rest.

What interests me are questions ranges from "what's with all these religious politicking their way in education?" to "is there no such thing as a soul because it is only a neural perception?" and to "how come atheism is more about equal rights, protection of minorities, etc than about non-belief in certain god(s)?"

Also, there are statements such as "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful", up to referring Pantheism as "sexed-up atheism", to atheist jokes such "When I told the people of Northern Ireland that I was an atheist, a woman in the audience stood up and said, "Yes, but is it the God of the Catholics or the God of the Protestants in whom you don't believe?""

"jamie barter" wrote:
“The other way”?  Don’t tell me you were a S*Tanist...

Well, no... I know nothing of it... No sir/ma'am, ain't heard anything of S*tanism.

"jamie barter" wrote:
Good luck with your “Thelemic arts” you didn’t specify in what direction that is, although the thing which immediately springs to mind is drawing/ painting?! “Thelemic” art, whether done by the eight & ninety rules or not, is always worth checking out and I look forward to doing so with yours at some future date…

I see you already comment on the thread I was just about to specify.

I just thought about posting it a little bit later, but, the sooner the better, lest I forgot.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
09/10/2013 12:13 pm  
"Magmus" wrote:
I used to live in Jakarta as a child many moons ago.

In Jakarta? Hmm... Never been there physically though.

"Magmus" wrote:
I can't image that there are many resident in Indonesia who profess to be Thelemites? Correct me if I am wrong.

Well, I could use my effort to discover what Thelema has in store for me, while I create my own company of light hearted Thelemites. I do promulgate (I don't proselytize as per what AL said).


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Los
 Los
(@los)
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Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 2197
09/10/2013 3:22 pm  
"doyour93" wrote:
I don't know what to say of these atheists. I don't say it bad, as they are in some way are releasing the mass from the stranglehold of old Aeonic religions.

Speaking as an atheist Thelemite, I am quite happy to see more people than ever before questioning the claims of religions. If I'm not mistaken, more Americans than ever count themselves among the "nones" (that is, no religion) on census forms.

Of course, I wouldn't say that outspoken atheists have necessarily *caused* this apparent decline in religious faith. I think the events of September 11, 2001 -- in which America got to see first hand exactly how dangerous loony beliefs with no grounding in evidence are --jolted a lot of people awake as to the potential danger of people just blindly accepting things as true without bothering to question.

"what's with all these religious politicking their way in education?"

It's a bid for power on their part. Mobilizing the religious right (also known as the "moral majority," which is amusingly neither moral nor a majority) was one way that politicians in America brought up their poll numbers during the 80s. Even today, so-called ethical issues like abortion are hot button topics that Republicans use basically to bamboozle the middle class into voting against their own economic interests.

As far as education goes, there have always been attempts by the religious to prevent the teaching of facts that undermine their fairy stories (evolution being the most obvious of these facts). It's intensified in recent years since the religious -- after being correctly laughed out of court in the past -- tried to dress up their beliefs as "Intelligent Design Science."

"is there no such thing as a soul because it is only a neural perception?"

No such thing.

Well, it depends on exactly what you mean by "soul." I guess in a figurative, metaphorical sense we could talk about "having soul" or the "human spirit." A lot of music is "soulful" in that sense.

But a literally ooky-spooky soul? No such thing. Or, perhaps more precisely, absolutely no reason to think there is one.

"how come atheism is more about equal rights, protection of minorities, etc than about non-belief in certain god(s)?"

Well, atheism *is* nothing more than a lack of belief in gods (that's all gods, by the way). But atheism as a movement often is involved with social justice issues for a number of reasons. In the first place, most atheists are obviously concerned with enforcing the church-state separation we have here in the United States. Freedom of religion also means freedom from religion, and as far as most of us are concerned, it's not the government's place to be promoting, endorsing, or sanctioning any particular religion or even religion over irreligion. So lots of atheist activists take issue with the various ways that the wall of separation has been eroded over the years.

More broadly, a lot of atheists also favor other social justice issues (say, feminism, for example) because a great deal of historical oppression of women and minorities was justified on the basis of dogmatic faith. There's a lot of contention in the atheist community over this point, however, as a lot of atheists -- while on board with the idea of fairness and equal treatment under the law -- are divided on how best to bring this about, which ideology to adopt, etc. As ever, atheists disagree about a lot of stuff, except for the fact that they don't think there are gods.

Plus, let's not forget that atheists are still a minority in the United States -- a particularly mistrusted minority, according to several polls -- and many atheists are sympathetic to other unfairly maligned minorities.


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Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
It's all in the egg
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 3832
09/10/2013 6:01 pm  

Welcome to LAShTAL, dayour93.


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christibrany
(@christibrany)
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Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 2120
09/10/2013 7:52 pm  

welcome dayour93.  sometimes i think it may be an interesting poll to see how many thelemites and or magicians in general were raised catholic. i feel it would be a huge number percentagewise.    Sometimes i think of going to church again for the experience. like one goes to a play but i never actually do.  lol.  welcome 😀


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Hamal
(@hamal)
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Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 547
09/10/2013 8:34 pm  
"Los" wrote:
In the first place, most atheists are obviously concerned with enforcing the church-state separation we have here in the United States

I wish we had that here in the UK. We have a state sanctioned religion called The Church of England. They have Bishops sitting in the house of Lords. The Queen as head of state is Defender of the faith and the Church of England officiate at state events. Pagan groups that apply for charitable status here are refused on the basis they are promoting a religion, Christian groups tend not to face similar accusations. There is no official route to register a religion here in the UK and different government departments differ in what faiths they recognise, the Home Office for example are on the whole a little more enlightened generally respecting the differing faiths of prisoners. Im not making a case here for Paganism or Wicca or Thelema being recognised as a religion, I am simply pointing out the rather confused situation here. If you found a Religion in the United States, get it recognised there then open a branch here in the UK... no problem! A bit weird that. That is so long as it doesn't have any radical ideas about marriage for example, multiple wives or husbands is a no no in the eyes of UK Law. It's a bit of a mess really.

😮
93
Hamal


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Los
 Los
(@los)
Member
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 2197
09/10/2013 8:41 pm  
"Hamal" wrote:
"Los" wrote:
In the first place, most atheists are obviously concerned with enforcing the church-state separation we have here in the United States

I wish we had that here in the UK. We have a state sanctioned religion called The Church of England.

Yeah, America's secular government is precious, which is one good reason to push back against the constant incursions on the wall of separation here.

Ironically, it's been suggested that the separation of church and state has actually encouraged religious fanaticism in the US. The argument runs like this: in those countries with a state religion, the religion is funded by the government and doesn't depend on donations. Thus, it doesn't have to work too hard to convince the faithful of its truth. Here in America, however, where religions are only kept in business by money provided by the faithful, you get many more instances of fanaticism.

Not sure how accurate that is, but it at least makes sense.


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Hamal
(@hamal)
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Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 547
09/10/2013 8:52 pm  
"Los" wrote:
Yeah, America's secular government is precious, which is one good reason to push back against the constant incursions on the wall of separation here.

It is indeed, make sure you guard that precious jewel!

93
Hamal


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
09/10/2013 10:20 pm  

Welcome, doyour93!


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Hamal
(@hamal)
Member
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 547
09/10/2013 10:31 pm  

How rude of me! Yes welcome doyour93!

93
Hamal


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
10/10/2013 12:51 am  
"christibrany" wrote:
sometimes i think it may be an interesting poll to see how many thelemites and or magicians in general were raised catholic. i feel it would be a huge number percentagewise.    Sometimes i think of going to church again for the experience. like one goes to a play but i never actually do.  lol.  welcome 😀

I'm sure it would be a good idea to tread on religious people's cognitive dissonance.

"Hamal" wrote:
There is no official route to register a religion here in the UK and different government departments differ in what faiths they recognise, the Home Office for example are on the whole a little more enlightened generally respecting the differing faiths of prisoners.

I must say that Westerners really had more access to freedom of (and from) religion, here in the (not so) moderate Indonesia, it is still hard to declare atheism. To give you an example, I would like you to know someone named Alexander Aan, a civil officer in a mostly religious environment (I forgot, somewhere in Sumatra provinces). He was jailed because of his anti-Islamic sentiments on Facebook. Sadly, it could be worse, when he was about to be captured by the police, the mob waited in front of his house to land a striking blow on him. Oh the tyranny.

Anyway, thank you for the moment to comment, I might as well learn much from this forum.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
10/10/2013 1:10 am  

... and to complicate matters,it is assumed that you must believe in the one God, which is funny, considering Hindus of the Balinese variant still practice polytheism. Also, the government's Ministry of Religion only recognize 6 religions (Islam, Roman Catholicism, Protestantism, Hinduism (the Balinese variant especially), Buddhism, and Confucianism (which is more of Chinese folk religion aka Shenism), and also, the ID card's religion category cannot be left blank, usually the civil officer will make an attempt to list you as Islam if you left it blank, and other religious minorities, including those of more indigenous or syncretic in origin (Kejawen, Sunda Wiwitan, Tenggerism, etc) as well as other religious minorities of some big religions of the world, like Jainism and Sikhism, are forced to go by the label Hindu. Jews in particular doesn't seem to exist at all, because they cannot, I remember how an alleged synagogue in my hometown of Surabaya is forced to tore down its ornaments to avoid publicity.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
10/10/2013 1:22 am  

What's more sickening is that, among their fellows Muslims, Sunnis tend to be intolerant of other strains of Islam, such as the Shi'ite and Ahmadis, you could look it up on the news, just Google it. What's more of a bullshit is that Indonesia is praised as a sanctuary of religious tolerance, which is a blatant lie and utter disgrace to sane people's sensibilities here. Recently a public officer had been discriminated simply because she's different from the people she served, like she's an Indonesian Chinese, Christian and a woman, too. I can't comprehend how sick that part of the world is. Well, at least in non-Islamic majority provinces that's not really the case, but I can't be sure if it will.


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jamie barter
(@jamie-barter)
Member
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 1690
10/10/2013 1:18 pm  
"doyour93" wrote:
"jamie barter" wrote:
“The other way”?  Don’t tell me you were a S*Tanist...

Well, no... I know nothing of it... No sir/ma'am, ain't heard anything of S*tanism.

Think nothing of it, do!  It was just my standard little witticism referring to the old Adversary of the Roman Catholics (and other Xian spinoffs), known under various names but usually referred to in the West as Satan.  Since this usually tends to create some sort of weird Pavlovian reaction when many people come across this concept, ‘Stan’ is my little way of making it seem more palatable, friendly & approachable (?!), and arguably it is a more correct rendering of the spelling anyway than as it stands, or Set-An or Shaitan, since it concentrates on the main two letters being Shin and Tau without extraneous material.  A similar idea really to when in the past “he” used to be referred to as “Old Harry” or “Old Nick”.

You English comes over as a most unusual mixture of the occasional quite academic phraseology (e.g., 'cognitive dissonance') thrown into an otherwise more pidgin sort of mix.

Re your most recent postings on Indonesia, intolerance, etc.: yes, as someone once said, it is indeed a funny old world we live in, and no mistake.

With kind regards to you,
N. Joy


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
10/10/2013 1:56 pm  
"jamie barter" wrote:
... the main two letters being Shin and Tau...

Do you mean the Japanese Shinto? Because it also sound like that too.  ;D

"jamie barter" wrote:
You English comes over as a most unusual mixture of the occasional quite academic phraseology (e.g., 'cognitive dissonance') thrown into an otherwise more pidgin sort of mix.

I must admit, English is not my best subject, back in the days of high school...

93s,
Ray


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Hamal
(@hamal)
Member
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 547
10/10/2013 2:45 pm  

I lived not too far from Indonesia, in Papua New Guinea for a couple of years during my childhood. And most formative years they were, I treasure the memories!

93
Hamal


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Shiva
(@shiva)
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Joined: 12 years ago
Posts: 3749
10/10/2013 3:41 pm  
"doyour93" wrote:
... and to complicate matters, it is assumed that you must believe in the one God ... the ID card's religion category cannot be left blank ...

Ah, yes, there's nothing like the separation of religion and state.

"I will point out the greatest, the chief cause of nearly two thirds of the evils that pursue humanity ever since that cause became a power. It is religion under whatever form and in whatsoever nation. It is the sacerdotal caste, the priesthood and the churches; it is in those illusions that man looks upon as sacred that he has to search out the source of that multitude of evils which is the great curse of humanity and that almost overwhelms mankind."

- Koot Hoomi in The Mahatma Letters to A.P. Sinnett. 1881.


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alysa
(@alysa)
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Joined: 12 years ago
Posts: 652
11/10/2013 11:36 pm  

Hello and welcome to Lashtal.com, I hope everything is there all right with you in Indonesia, best wishes from me!


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