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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
28/05/2011 2:52 pm  

As far as a link, not everything is on the internet and I am not going to refute CC with his claims that Russell was never expelled because there isn't link that lays that out. Simply reading the Cephaloedium Working will reveal a lot and then he claimed that Crowley wrote One Star in Sight a full 20 years before he met Russell when in fact, he wrote after the incident where Russell went insane at the Abbey of Thelema. It is a demonstrably fallacious statement and if this CC is the same person as the CC that has been commenting around the net for the last 15 years he should certainly know better than to propagate the myth that Crowley wrote One Star in SIght 20 years before he met Russell considering the date of having written it is right there in the document, at the Abbey of Thelema AND following the Cephaloedium working which is what led to the falling out of Russell and Crowley.


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einDoppelganger
(@eindoppelganger)
Member
Joined: 12 years ago
Posts: 915
28/05/2011 3:11 pm  
"einDoppelganger" wrote:
Uranus, can you expand on what this reaction was? Google hasn't given me much info and I am curious what reaction would cause such a backlash.

Thanks
S

No, you missed my question to you earlier. Quoted here.

S


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 2964
28/05/2011 8:07 pm  

93,

"uranus" wrote:
"Azidonis" wrote:
93,

"uranus" wrote:
Not being a part of the Gunther lineage (whatever that is) I would have no idea what "myths" they are perpetuating about Russell considering my primary sources aren't from the "Gunther" lineage.

Is that meant to sound how it sounded?

Impartial here, of course.

93 93/93

I do not accept the idea of lineages.

You just pointed out the "Gunther lineage", along with "perpetuating myths", then stated your primary sources aren't from the "Gunther lineage".

I didn't bring it up, you did. My original question was, from the sounds of it you highly disprove of what the "Gunther lineage" might be saying about C.F. Russell. Getting dates wrong consistently is one thing, but is there any proof they are making other attempts to change the written history of Thelema? Is so, are they doing it on purpose or out of ignorance?

I'm sure you understand the cat in that bag is quite huge and ferocious...

(And yes, this would effect people wanting to join the A:.A:. as well.)

93 93/93


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
29/05/2011 12:52 am  

Ein, PJ had a very reactionary reaction and it is not my place to get into the specifics of it. I am not here to gossip about former mentors.

Azidonis... by no means am I assaulting the "Gunther Lineage". I am not disacknowledging Gunther and his work, in fact, I am quite the admirer of his book and look extremely forward to the next one. In fact, I am in the boat of there are NO LINEAGES of the A.'.A.'. I do not accept the concept for the A.'.A.'. is one order and continues to be One Order. My use of the word "myths" was in relation to Choronzon Clubs post and his comment about spreading BS. I do not know what Gunther and company have to say about Russell, I have not spoken with them because I do not personally know any of them so anything that I would have been told they had said would be hearsay and therefore unreliable information. I spoke out of turn in my comment on Russell but there are resources for finding out the story of Russell and his relation to Crowley, the A.'.A.'. and his falling out. Martin Starr's The Unknown God provides some information on Russell and Culling for example.

I do NOT have anything against Russell. His work is brilliant in its complexity and the GBG material is an excellent fusion of the A.'.A.'. and OTO material. I also do not think Russell ever promoted himself as an A.'.A.'. member or instructor following his falling out with Crowley.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
29/05/2011 4:04 am  

To recap the quotes I had laced within this thread:

HOW TO JOIN THE A.·.A.·. ?

He who is fit is joined to the chain, perhaps often where he thought least likely, and at a point of which he knew nothing himself.

Liber XXXIII

The Brothers of the A.·.A.·. refuse none. They have no objection to any one claiming to be one of Themselves. If he does so, let him abide by it.

Liber LXXI

Every man must overcome his own obstacles, expose his own illusions. Yet others may assist him to do both, and they may enable him altogether to avoid many of the false paths, leading no whither, which tempt the weary feet of the uninitiated pilgrim. They can further insure that he is duly tried and tested, for there are many who think themselves to be Masters who have not even begun to tread the Way of Service that leads thereto.

Liber LXI


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AdoniaZanoni
(@adoniazanoni)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 72
29/05/2011 4:36 am  

Other links I found was I believe Ray Eales’ AA
http://www.aa-thelema.org/

Also this one.
http://astronargon.us/

The AA is on facebook.
http://www.facebook.com/pages/AA-Astrum-Argentum/56545783391

I think this site is maintained by James A. Eshelman and David Shoemaker’s lineage.
This site has some interesting items.

It states about Kenneth Grant “There are no known public claims that Kenneth Grant (1924-2011) continued his work after being initiated in the A∴A∴ by Crowley in 1946, but we think it is appropriate to mention in this page that one of most influential and controversial occultists of the second half of XX century celebrated his Greater Feast last month, as published few days ago...”

It has a gallery of AA items such as the tools, wax seals originally used.
http://www.facebook.com/pages/AA-Astrum-Argentum/56545783391#!/media/set/?set=a.127047183979771.18140.125462470804909

It also has a link to Jerry Cornelius which states “Let all Thelemites know that I, Hymenaeus Alpha, 777 IX O.T.O., 9=2 Caliph of the Ordo Templi Orientis of Aleister Crowley, Baphomet, 666, do hereby Charter Thelema Lodge as Grand Lodge of O.T.O.” All well and good, but how many people are aware that Grady actually signed the Charter as a Magus of the AA, 9=2? He rarely talked about this but his students will attest that according to Grady, on this particular day, he made the affirmation to assume the degree. Grady asserted that he uttered his magickal Word, as a Magus, under his breath. It was the letters ‘OTO.’”

It appears Grady McMurty assumed the grade Magus in the AA.

The astron argon site states “Jerry Cornelius—a self made lineage claiming descent from Grady McMurtry. More than likely, this is Jerry's approach to humility as it is more than probably that McMurtry was never A.'.A.'. The outer grades have been reformulated here and Cornelius remains aloof as the lineage maintains an on-again and off-again relationship with the Caliphate.” O.T.O.

I have heard from three sources Astron Argon, Phyllis Secker and Marcello Motta that Grady McMurty was never in the AA, just a probationer. Perhaps since he was head of the American OTO he had the right to promote himself in the AA to that grade. I do not know but I guess we may never know until some writes a decent honest biography of Grady McMurty.

Also the astron argon site states “G.M. Kelly—self professed Magister Templi of the A.’.A.’. who pursues a publication that ceaselessly rants against seemingly everyone that appears on the Thelemic stage. In his mind, he's the only 'real' Thelemite. And he needs for you to know this.”

I had a feeling he claimed to represent this order because of his website Castle of the Silver Star and I know Motta stated he did not. I wonder about him. His site keeps me laughing.

Also stated “Dr. Israel Regardie, Phyllis Seckler, Jane Wolf—continued a lineage of the A.’.A.’. which would eventually result in the College and Temple of Thelema (The Regardie connection is verified by way of my conversation with James Eshelman). They have injured the integrity of the A.'.A.'. by charging a fee for classroom instruction that gives credit for work done in their A.'.A.'. program. As proof that the Secret Chiefs have turned their back on them, there are now dupes of this organization regularly contacting me and sometimes threatening. Such egocentricity is the result of a failure to Initiate (emails available upon request).”

That is funny. I wonder if I joined the college could I transfer my credits to Bersson’s AA when his five years of silence ends.

Also quoted “V., V.V., S.U.A.—arcane lineage of the A.’.A.’. (probably Martin Starr, Lon Milo Duquette & Bill Breeze) credited with the imprimatur on the impertinent editions of Volume IV of the Equinox (mocking A.'.A.'. tradition) and claiming to be the spiritual authority of the Caliphate O.T.O.”

This must be the official AA associated with the Caliphate O.T.O. This is where Liber Vesta became controversial. Those robe paintings were taken from Crowley’s robe paintings. Even if they were not implemented in the AA in the past, I do not see why they cannot be implemented. Also Martin Starr was a student of Motta.

The astroargon site has many interesting items to download. I am not sure if Paul Joseph Rovelli is associated with this? They even state they plan to publish the SOTO rituals Motta designed. I would be curious to see them.

http://astronargon.us/The%20Motta%20System%20of%20Thelema.html

All I can say is I am trying to outline the different lineages in my mind and am an observer since I am not associated.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
29/05/2011 4:44 am  

DuQuette is not the third member of the A.'.A.'. Triumvirate, that would be J. Daniel Gunther. DuQuette maintains no A.'.A.'. affiliations aside from being admitted to 1=10 by Meral. Shortly after he split off. He writes about it in his book "Angels, Demons & Demigods of the New Millenium".


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einDoppelganger
(@eindoppelganger)
Member
Joined: 12 years ago
Posts: 915
29/05/2011 8:54 am  
"uranus" wrote:
Ein, PJ had a very reactionary reaction and it is not my place to get into the specifics of it. I am not here to gossip about former mentors.

Thats about what I figured but I dint want to assume and i appreciate your desire not to "gossip." The event polarized lots of people from spiritual mentors to Dennis Miller top Frank Miller... Thanks for the clarification.


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Patriarch156
(@patriarch156)
Member
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 486
29/05/2011 11:25 am  

Crowley made perfectly clear Russell's lack of official standing in a circular letter in the 1920s. Russell is consequently cut contact with as early as 1923 e.v. as shown in a letter from 16. march that year, where A.C writes to Charles S. Jones:

"I have decided to take no further notice of Genesthai's communications, whatever one writes he makes it an excuse for a new outburst of insolence, self-glorification, and envious abuse of his superiors. I make a point of lettig you know my decusion immeditely. It may be important, when he explodes, to be able to show that he has acted throughout in direct and deliberate opposition to the principles of the A.'.A.'. and to the instructions of his superiors; and this as in the case of Ryerson, has been the cause of his crash. You will of course have noted that with a lunatic's cunning he eats humble pie as soon as he feels that he has gone too far, so as to get in with us again. Please be on your guard against these tactics. Your letters to him, so far as I have seen then, have been admirably correct; but I really doubt the wisdom of having anything to do with him. If the smash does not finish him entirely, it may knock some sense into him and it might be our duty to pick up the pieces; but I should certainly cut him off completely until that smash has come to pass."

In order to make effective this new policy of removing undesirables who no longer were considered in good standing, A.C. later on 27. september 1923 e.v., through his Scarlet Woman Alostrael who signs it as a Magister Templi, declares a new set of rules which enables one to separate the wheat from the chaff so to speak as far as being in "good standing" is concerned.

Despite the quoted comment in the letter to Jones about his "duty to pick up the pieces" Crowley a few years later after Russel becoming an increasingly bigger problem since he presented his own work as that of the A.'.A.'., declares in a circular letter Russell a persona non grata as far as A.'.A.'. work is concerned:

"The Master Therion warns all Aspirants to the Sacred Wisdom and the Magick of Light that Initiation cannot be bought, or even conferred; it must be won by personal endeavor.

Members of the true Order of A.'.A.'. are pledged to zeal in service to those whom they supervise, and to accept no reward of any kind for such service. Nor does the order receive any fees whatsoever when degrees of Initiation are confirmed by its authority.

He especially warns all persons against C.F. Russell of Chicago, Ill., and his agents. He is a thief, swindler, and blackmailer; he has stolen the property of the Order and used it to enable him to pose as its representative, and so to carry on his swindles upon would-be Initiates."

Crowley discusses moreover frankly the mental state of C.F. Russell in a letter to Charles s. Jones on february 23. 1923 e.v.:

"Your advice was excellent but I should have as little to do with himofficially as possible. I believe him quite capable of murdering somebody in honour of Choronzon and we do not want to be mixed up in that."

As far as the quality of Russel's writings goes, it is an interesting (in its pejorative sense) amalgamation of the O.T.O. and the A.'.A.'. (Culling's presentation of it is not really all that representative of it). He keeps the structure of the A.'.A.'. basically intact but institutes a new Grade that is the highest one, located in DAATH.

One of his chief original (as in not originating from the A.'.A.'. and the O.T.O. unlike his first versions of his instruction on the Yi Ching which simply were a repackaging of Crowley's version) instructions were Liber M, an instruction claiming to contain "a partial revelation of the true nature of God, the actual facts of CREATION, the real ORIGIN OF SPECIES, with the secret plan of evolution," in particular is revealing, but all his instructions shows that while it is obvious that Russell had access during his stay at Cefalu to both his rare manuscripts as well as Crowley himself, he understood little.

In particular the document touch upon the "miracle of incarnation" and argues that other races are in fact different species and that "[t]he WHITE RACE is the 'divine race', the 'Sons of God', & the species exclusively descended from ADAM, the head of the mammalian order." I think you can imagine how it continues and in fact it makes a specific point out of how it was the "Parents of the White Race" that lived in the Garden of Eden and how Adam's descendants are the ones that are particularly suited for the apotheosis that Russell teaches, and that the Fall consisted basically in the communication "to the race an hereditary and incurable form of insanity," which apparently "consists of a spirit of abnormality & perversity & causes the race to degenerate into the small black-eyed type, such as the Hindoos, Pareses, Syrians, Jews, Arabs, Fellah & Mediterranean Races."

He ends his "race twaddle" as crowley would call it, by noting that only the White Race are not so afflicted and so are the only true descendants of Adam, having his nobility and powers of being and even throws in a paragraph about how hell is an actual place with a definite location, ruled over by the Devil.


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 2964
29/05/2011 12:33 pm  
"Patriarch156" wrote:
Crowley made perfectly clear Russell's lack of official standing in a circular letter in the 1920s. Russell is consequently cut contact with as early as 1923 e.v. as shown in a letter from 16. march that year, where A.C writes to Charles S. Jones:

"I have decided to take no further notice of Genesthai's communications, whatever one writes he makes it an excuse for a new outburst of insolence, self-glorification, and envious abuse of his superiors. I make a point of lettig you know my decusion immeditely. It may be important, when he explodes, to be able to show that he has acted throughout in direct and deliberate opposition to the principles of the A.'.A.'. and to the instructions of his superiors; and this as in the case of Ryerson, has been the cause of his crash. You will of course have noted that with a lunatic's cunning he eats humble pie as soon as he feels that he has gone too far, so as to get in with us again. Please be on your guard against these tactics. Your letters to him, so far as I have seen then, have been admirably correct; but I really doubt the wisdom of having anything to do with him. If the smash does not finish him entirely, it may knock some sense into him and it might be our duty to pick up the pieces; but I should certainly cut him off completely until that smash has come to pass."

In order to make effective this new policy of removing undesirables who no longer were considered in good standing, A.C. later on 27. september 1923 e.v., through his Scarlet Woman Alostrael who signs it as a Magister Templi, declares a new set of rules which enables one to separate the wheat from the chaff so to speak as far as being in "good standing" is concerned.

Despite the quoted comment in the letter to Jones about his "duty to pick up the pieces" Crowley a few years later after Russel becoming an increasingly bigger problem since he presented his own work as that of the A.'.A.'., declares in a circular letter Russell a persona non grata as far as A.'.A.'. work is concerned:

"The Master Therion warns all Aspirants to the Sacred Wisdom and the Magick of Light that Initiation cannot be bought, or even conferred; it must be won by personal endeavor.

Members of the true Order of A.'.A.'. are pledged to zeal in service to those whom they supervise, and to accept no reward of any kind for such service. Nor does the order receive any fees whatsoever when degrees of Initiation are confirmed by its authority.

He especially warns all persons against C.F. Russell of Chicago, Ill., and his agents. He is a thief, swindler, and blackmailer; he has stolen the property of the Order and used it to enable him to pose as its representative, and so to carry on his swindles upon would-be Initiates."

Crowley discusses moreover frankly the mental state of C.F. Russell in a letter to Charles s. Jones on february 23. 1923 e.v.:

"Your advice was excellent but I should have as little to do with himofficially as possible. I believe him quite capable of murdering somebody in honour of Choronzon and we do not want to be mixed up in that."

As far as the quality of Russel's writings goes, it is an interesting (in its pejorative sense) amalgamation of the O.T.O. and the A.'.A.'. (Culling's presentation of it is not really all that representative of it). He keeps the structure of the A.'.A.'. basically intact but institutes a new Grade that is the highest one, located in DAATH.

One of his chief original (as in not originating from the A.'.A.'. and the O.T.O. unlike his first versions of his instruction on the Yi Ching which simply were a repackaging of Crowley's version) instructions were Liber M, an instruction claiming to contain "a partial revelation of the true nature of God, the actual facts of CREATION, the real ORIGIN OF SPECIES, with the secret plan of evolution," in particular is revealing, but all his instructions shows that while it is obvious that Russell had access during his stay at Cefalu to both his rare manuscripts as well as Crowley himself, he understood little.

In particular the document touch upon the "miracle of incarnation" and argues that other races are in fact different species and that "[t]he WHITE RACE is the 'divine race', the 'Sons of God', & the species exclusively descended from ADAM, the head of the mammalian order." I think you can imagine how it continues and in fact it makes a specific point out of how it was the "Parents of the White Race" that lived in the Garden of Eden and how Adam's descendants are the ones that are particularly suited for the apotheosis that Russell teaches, and that the Fall consisted basically in the communication "to the race an hereditary and incurable form of insanity," which apparently "consists of a spirit of abnormality & perversity & causes the race to degenerate into the small black-eyed type, such as the Hindoos, Pareses, Syrians, Jews, Arabs, Fellah & Mediterranean Races."

He ends his "race twaddle" as crowley would call it, by noting that only the White Race are not so afflicted and so are the only true descendants of Adam, having his nobility and powers of being and even throws in a paragraph about how hell is an actual place with a definite location, ruled over by the Devil.

This is probably one of the best posts I've read.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
29/05/2011 1:53 pm  

Thank you Patriarch, for clarifying the situation with C.F. Russell as clearly as you have. I was unaware that he had presented himself and his work as the A.'.A.'. following his fall out with A.C.

I will reiterate here that my own research led me to a lot of the same materials here quoted by Patriarch. I should also, just to be clear, reiterate, since it has apparently been a source of confusion for some, but in the past I have expressed that I accept the only Authority in the A.'.A.'. to be the IMprimatur that presents itself in the Equinox vol. IV in the forms of V., V.V. and S.U.A.I have posted this in the past on this forum and others. As far as my associations with the A.'.A.'. in the past I will say I am merely an Aspirant of the Mysteries of the Order. Any claims or statements in the past, consider null & void. 😉


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 2964
29/05/2011 8:37 pm  

93,

Coming soon: New and improved A:.A:. Dog Tags!

That's right! Now you can stun the opposition, call to arms, and 'yep yo set' like never before!

With the new A:.A:. Dog Tags, everyone's filial allegiance is in the open for all to see!

Not for use in all countries and all cases. This product may get you a date, but may not guarantee authority.

Well, I suppose every "claimant group" should have a house in the City of the Pyramids. If it doesn't then what really, can you do? I mean, who ever goes out of that City to look for other houses?

Three's Company theme song playing... "come and knock on my door..."

93 93/93


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amadan-De
(@amadan-de)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 686
29/05/2011 9:39 pm  

Based on this quote;

"666TSAEB" wrote:
The Brothers of the A.·.A.·. refuse none. They have no objection to any one claiming to be one of Themselves. If he does so, let him abide by it.

Liber LXXI

The answer to the original question would seem to be,
"You just have. Now, can you handle the work and fufill the responsibilities or are you getting off the boat here? No passengers, everyone must row."


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
30/05/2011 10:23 pm  
"uranus" wrote:
I do not accept the idea of lineages.
"uranus" wrote:
Thank you Patriarch, for clarifying the situation with C.F. Russell as clearly as you have. I was unaware that he had presented himself and his work as the A.'.A.'. following his fall out with A.C.

I will reiterate here that my own research led me to a lot of the same materials here quoted by Patriarch. I should also, just to be clear, reiterate, since it has apparently been a source of confusion for some, but in the past I have expressed that I accept the only Authority in the A.'.A.'. to be the IMprimatur that presents itself in the Equinox vol. IV in the forms of V., V.V. and S.U.A.I have posted this in the past on this forum and others. As far as my associations with the A.'.A.'. in the past I will say I am merely an Aspirant of the Mysteries of the Order. Any claims or statements in the past, consider null & void. 😉

A change of tune? 😉

If I were to hazard a prediction, it would be that this will be the trend for the future with regard to the A.'.A.'., and that such a reunification would be in keeping with Crowley's intent - although the very necessity for a reunification at all might easily be said to have been Crowley's own fault.

(This is not to say that some others are not doing fine Work of their own outside of this trend, for the time being, which some are, imo.)


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 2964
30/05/2011 11:31 pm  

93,

"Camlion" wrote:
If I were to hazard a prediction, it would be that this will be the trend for the future with regard to the A.'.A.'., and that such a reunification would be in keeping with Crowley's intent - although the very necessity for a reunification at all might easily be said to have been Crowley's own fault.

(This is not to say that some others are not doing fine Work of their own outside of this trend, for the time being, which some are, imo.)

Here's a question...

Let's say there are oh 10 "claimant groups" (10 is just some random number). In order for these 10 groups to unify, it would take all 10 heads of those groups to sit and decide on... anything.

Of course, as soon as one begins trying to decide who is and who is not "with us" a division has been made, and the whole mess unfolds outside of the City.

93 93/93


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
31/05/2011 3:42 am  
"Camlion" wrote:
"uranus" wrote:
I do not accept the idea of lineages.
"uranus" wrote:
Thank you Patriarch, for clarifying the situation with C.F. Russell as clearly as you have. I was unaware that he had presented himself and his work as the A.'.A.'. following his fall out with A.C.

I will reiterate here that my own research led me to a lot of the same materials here quoted by Patriarch. I should also, just to be clear, reiterate, since it has apparently been a source of confusion for some, but in the past I have expressed that I accept the only Authority in the A.'.A.'. to be the IMprimatur that presents itself in the Equinox vol. IV in the forms of V., V.V. and S.U.A.I have posted this in the past on this forum and others. As far as my associations with the A.'.A.'. in the past I will say I am merely an Aspirant of the Mysteries of the Order. Any claims or statements in the past, consider null & void. 😉

A change of tune? 😉

If I were to hazard a prediction, it would be that this will be the trend for the future with regard to the A.'.A.'., and that such a reunification would be in keeping with Crowley's intent - although the very necessity for a reunification at all might easily be said to have been Crowley's own fault.

(This is not to say that some others are not doing fine Work of their own outside of this trend, for the time being, which some are, imo.)

Never a change of tune. I have been a supporter of Gunther and his work since I first read Initiation in the Aeon of the Child. It really changed my perspective on Thelema. My previous comment was definitely not a criticism of Gunther but me saying I am not affiliated with them at this time. I do not know Gunther or any of the other members of the Equnox editorial board and also I do not accept the concept of lineages. I despise the word because it is anathema to the concept of the A.'.A.'. in my own opinion. No, no change of tune, I just realized my initial post could be read the wrong way in spite of the fact that I have repeatedly expressed my admiration for Gunther and his work on these forums over the last two years.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
31/05/2011 6:31 pm  
"Azidonis" wrote:
93,

"Camlion" wrote:
If I were to hazard a prediction, it would be that this will be the trend for the future with regard to the A.'.A.'., and that such a reunification would be in keeping with Crowley's intent - although the very necessity for a reunification at all might easily be said to have been Crowley's own fault.

(This is not to say that some others are not doing fine Work of their own outside of this trend, for the time being, which some are, imo.)

Here's a question...

Let's say there are oh 10 "claimant groups" (10 is just some random number). In order for these 10 groups to unify, it would take all 10 heads of those groups to sit and decide on... anything.

I was no doubt somewhat unclear in my use of the word "reunification," Az, sorry. No one need sit down and decide anything in this context. We will each eventually just lay down and die. What will remain was the focus of my forecast as to the future continuation of one trend and the demise of others. This post-Crowley transitional period for the A.'.A.'. is still underway, but I was just hazarding a prediction as to the eventual outcome. The best chance for long-term survival for any "10 claimant groups," I think, would be for at least 9 of them to be known as something other than "the A.'.A.'.," as is already the case with several groups.


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Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 4052
31/05/2011 10:59 pm  

For how long do you think the "post-Crowley transitional period" might last? It's already been under way for longer than the organisation of that name existed during Crowley's lifetime.

Best wishes,

Michael.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
31/05/2011 11:03 pm  
"MichaelStaley" wrote:
For how long do you think the "post-Crowley transitional period" might last? It's already been under way for longer than the organisation of that name existed during Crowley's lifetime.

Best wishes,

Michael.

Time will tell. 😉


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Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 4052
31/05/2011 11:16 pm  

Or perhaps not, because time is not here as there.


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Shiva
(@shiva)
Not a Rajah
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 5024
01/06/2011 5:26 am  
"MichaelStaley" wrote:
For how long do you think the "post-Crowley transitional period" might last?

1947-1904 = 43

2000-43 = 1957

Exactly 1957 years!
More or less.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
10/08/2011 9:34 pm  
"LucemPortabo" wrote:
Do not concern yourself with seeking any "official" society. Simply obtain the original A:.A:. instructions and follow them.

Start here:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/oto/lib9.ht m"> http://www.sacred-texts.com/oto/lib9.htm

Follow the practices laid out in these instructions, and study the list of written works suggested. This will consist of your work as Probationer, which will last for a period of at least 1 year.

If you insist of finding a Master, or joining into any society, you'd do well to heed this advice:

During the whole of this elementary study and practice he will do wisely to seek out and attach himself to, a master, one competent to correct him and advise him. Nor should he be discouraged by the difficulty of finding such a person.

Let him further remember that he must in no wise rely upon, or believe in, that master. He must rely entirely upon himself, and credit nothing whatever but that which lies within his own knowledge and experience.

There is actual a quite good book by Mr. Regardie:
The One Year Manual: Twelve Steps to Spiritual Enlightenment
which covers the steps to initiation quite thoroughly.

I was very impressed by it and am sure if you follow it to the end that the chance of becoming enlightened will surely increase.

You can read it on GOOGLE BOOKS here:
http://books.google.com/books?id=wACw3ru2BcAC&printsec=frontcover&hl=de&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

Like the Buddha said "get off your ass (or arse if you're British) and do it".
And Vivekananda added that what we call "enlightenment" is a direct result of body functions which can be brought about by using some techniques tought by Raja and Hatha Yoga.
The same think Mr. AC told us over and over again.

So, don't expect your right A:.A:. to pop up before you and say "all your problems are solved now". Even if it did - what would be the use for you? You'll still have to work it out on yourself.

But Regardie's book is a better point to start at as Silver Ravenwolf's books for example 😀


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
11/08/2011 5:55 am  

You know, the obvious influence on the A.'.A.'. curriculum is the G.'.D.'.; but I think it is less clear that the structural influence on the A.'.A.'. (which is clearly not similar to the G.'.D.'. in that sense) is in fact similar to certain sufi lineages. I see it as evidence of the influence of Sufism on Crowley's spiritual work.

And if we follow that line of thought, it becomes very clear that the A.'.A.'. would certainly have never been meant to be a single coherent order after the founder's death, at the very least, if not earlier, but rather to turn into a number of different structures; some of which were meant to prepare a student for working with a teacher, and others to allow the teacher to create a teaching framework for the student.

If that's the case, then indeed anyone who seeks to be a probationer of the A.'.A.'. IS a probationer of the A.'.A.'., and there could be "lineages" of the A.'.A.'. that would not be recognizable either by "apostolic succession" or by orthodoxy of practices; while in fact any group that slavishly sought to imitate the structure of the A.'.A.'. as it existed in Crowley's day would in fact not be legitimately engaging in the Work, but maintaining an empty shell.


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 2964
11/08/2011 6:02 am  
"Swamiji" wrote:
You know, the obvious influence on the A.'.A.'. curriculum is the G.'.D.'.; but I think it is less clear that the structural influence on the A.'.A.'. (which is clearly not similar to the G.'.D.'. in that sense) is in fact similar to certain sufi lineages. I see it as evidence of the influence of Sufism on Crowley's spiritual work.

And if we follow that line of thought, it becomes very clear that the A.'.A.'. would certainly have never been meant to be a single coherent order after the founder's death, at the very least, if not earlier, but rather to turn into a number of different structures; some of which were meant to prepare a student for working with a teacher, and others to allow the teacher to create a teaching framework for the student.

If that's the case, then indeed anyone who seeks to be a probationer of the A.'.A.'. IS a probationer of the A.'.A.'., and there could be "lineages" of the A.'.A.'. that would not be recognizable either by "apostolic succession" or by orthodoxy of practices; while in fact any group that slavishly sought to imitate the structure of the A.'.A.'. as it existed in Crowley's day would in fact not be legitimately engaging in the Work, but maintaining an empty shell.

Well said, sir.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
11/08/2011 6:12 am  

I'll second that. I've been interested in the Sufis since I first read Chumbleys works. Your post, Swamiji, has further "fanned the flames", so to speak, and I've decided to do some more in-depth research.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
11/08/2011 5:59 pm  

Its notable, for example, that arguably the two most defining moments in Crowley's life (the reception of the Book of the Law, and his attainment as a Magister Templi) both happened in north africa. That region at the turn of the century was ripe with Sufi influence and thoughts, most particularly in the Sidi Aissawa branch.

Aissawa literally means "anointed ones", and is a reference both to Jesus ("Isa" in arabic) and the founder of their sect. Sufis have their own equivalent "arabic gematria", where they put great emphasis on anagrams.

The Sidi Aissawa used/uses a kind of degree structure, where they differentiate between the level of an initiate ("Fakir") into the sect, the adepts, and the masters or "sheiks".

It is hard to manage particular detail on this, however, since there were multiple groups and teachers operating under that name; and even by Crowley's time that sect was in rapid decline toward the kind of folk-religion state it is in today, where they are best known for their songs and dances, rather than serious illumination.
Sufis of course make a point of scattering the teaching into new and different forms, to try to keep it alive rather than turned into a hollow imitation of its true illumination.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
11/08/2011 6:40 pm  
"Swamiji" wrote:
Its notable, for example, that arguably the two most defining moments in Crowley's life (the reception of the Book of the Law, and his attainment as a Magister Templi) both happened in north africa. That region at the turn of the century was ripe with Sufi influence and thoughts, most particularly in the Sidi Aissawa branch.

So Sufism is a source of the A:.A:. system, yes?

Paschal Beverley Randolph, the "founder" of the HBL toward which Reuss said he had connections claims mysterious Sufi influence, too, as did Carl Kellner of the OTO.

Randolph - the first public sex magician - was supposedly killed by Blavatsky in a "magical war". Or so the rumour goes.

These three mentioned societies are "sex magic" societies.

I know the Sufis always were and are very relaxed on sexual intercourse in all forms and they may have done sex magic, too.

And the similarity of Aissawa/Aiwass catches the eye, of course 😉

Do you think the Sufis had preserved some old knowledge which were lost to us? Do you think this still exists today?


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
11/08/2011 7:05 pm  

I also suspect a significant Sufi influence in Crowley's work. This appears to be one thing that Crowley and Gurdjieff had in common.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
11/08/2011 7:51 pm  

Quote from the book "I rather fancy that the probationer of Crowley's A. A. could find this manual of the utmost value to prepare him for the advancement to the Grade of Neophyte."

I read the book but haven't started the exercises but they look promising and in line with Crowley's initiatory guidelines from my viewpoint.
There ARE other books of course but this one seems to be written from the pov of a sincere seeker who knows what he does (he was initiated by Crowley) and communicating this nicely in words which make it easy to follow.

Anyone confirm or negate the value of this book? I felt it was relevant to the thread 🙂


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Shiva
(@shiva)
Not a Rajah
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 5024
11/08/2011 7:54 pm  

Sufis? - Absolutely!

From ancient Egypt, the western mysteries migrated to Persia-Arabia. We (the western tradition) got "back in touch" with the sexual mysteries from the "Sufis" of their time: The Saracen - in particular, the Hashashin. The Sufi tradition is, after all, an "esoteric" branch of Allah's realm.

"We," of course, were called the Knights Templar (by our much longer official name). When the Templars were crushed by the Black Lodge (the forces of materialism), the tradition went underground to surface as the Rosicrucians (hermits & alchemists & healers). In their turn, the healers got persecuted as witches and they went underground to emerge as the politically-oriented Illuminati - who eventually got banned, but re-emerged or co-emerged or pre-emerged as Freemasonry and Randolph and etcetera until OTO.

The Golden Dawn spilled out of Rosicruceana, but without all that sexy stuff. Crowley rose out of the Golden Dawn and then assumed leadership of the OTO, where all these secret Sufi "Secrets of The East" were proclaimed as being the central secret of all systems of illumination. His A.'.A.'. (revised GD & RC plus SS) was free - if you paid for the "paper" (a guinea it was), but the central secret degrees cost more - eventually your all (and I'm speaking of money and your computer as well).

This is all very interesting, and the word Sufi may well include a dim image, an overview as it were, of the source of sexy symbolism in western orders of chivalry. We might also consider that these Sufis were passing along info from even further East. see: Journey to the East by Herman Hesse. It is the prototype, the archetype of the history of all outer orders.

In any case, as has been recently posted and noted and acknowledged on these very forums and soapboxes upon which we stand ... This same "secret" information is openly available in certain Hindu Tantra traditions (their texts) and even more scientifically in certain ancient Chinese Taoist texts and scrolls. I am refering to both the internal Amrita Lotus-drop elixir - the true Elixir of Immortality, and the external secretions, the so-called "Amrita," but not truly so because it has already been "incarnated" one level below the pure state.

I mention all these things because, as one of our members said, "I read all about this in the plainest language in college-assigned readings" (or words to that effect).

Did you know that when the evil King and his dupe, the puppet Pope, went after the Templars, that one of the charges was Conspiring with the Hashashin?


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
11/08/2011 8:09 pm  
"Shiva" wrote:
From ancient Egypt, the western mysteries migrated to Persia-Arabia.

Did they come from Babylonia to Egypt?

"Shiva" wrote:
the tradition went underground to surface as the Rosicrucians (hermits & alchemists & healers).

Comte Gebelin, Ficino, de Medici.

Did you know Mozart studied with a guy who had the Comte's tarot book and it is presumed Mozart got inspired by this and portrayed the opera "magic flute" after the Tarot? There are 22 parts and four triads and so on. The oroginal idea of operas had been to communicate neo-platonic knowledge to "the people".

But enough offtopic. "Down, boy" (Ace Ventura to his cock) 🙂

"Shiva" wrote:
In their turn, the healers got persecuted as witches and they went underground to emerge as the politically-oriented Illuminati

But not in Britain where there were few witch burnings and many higher circles practiciced witchcraft and the GD/RRetAC/AA emerged there.

"Shiva" wrote:
The Golden Dawn spilled out of Rosicruceana, but without all that sexy stuff. Crowley rose out of the Golden Dawn and then assumed leadership of the OTO, where all these secret Sufi "Secrets of The East" were proclaimed as being the central secret of all systems of illumination. His A.'.A.'. (revised GD & RC plus SS) was free - if you paid for the "paper" (a guinea it was), but the central secret degrees cost more - eventually your all (and I'm speaking of money and your computer as well).

But maybe he contacted Sufis himself? He must have known a wandering dervish for what he is: sometimes a master seeking for pupils. Sufis wouldn't have condemned his bisexual leanings, they even may have had a classification for rites with men and women.

"Shiva" wrote:
Did you know that when the evil King and his dupe, the puppet Pope, went after the Templars, that one of the charges was Conspiring with the Hashashin?

I didn't know this! That would've concerned the Templars,too, of course?

Did I already tell you I enjoy your posts, Uncle Shiva?
I enjoy your posts.
Now I said it. I'm unable to deny it 😀


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
11/08/2011 8:18 pm  

PS I meant my cock in the line above... 😀

In the line above I meant it would have concerned Sufis Because there would have been a line of master pupil exchange alive which got extinguished by the persecution.

So they preserved their teachings in secret societies and alchemicial mystical images. But the Sufis got never persecuted, or was there a Sufi hunt too in Arabian countries?


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
12/08/2011 1:05 am  
"FraDiavolo" wrote:
"Swamiji" wrote:
Its notable, for example, that arguably the two most defining moments in Crowley's life (the reception of the Book of the Law, and his attainment as a Magister Templi) both happened in north africa. That region at the turn of the century was ripe with Sufi influence and thoughts, most particularly in the Sidi Aissawa branch.

So Sufism is a source of the A:.A:. system, yes?

Paschal Beverley Randolph, the "founder" of the HBL toward which Reuss said he had connections claims mysterious Sufi influence, too, as did Carl Kellner of the OTO.

Randolph - the first public sex magician - was supposedly killed by Blavatsky in a "magical war". Or so the rumour goes.

These three mentioned societies are "sex magic" societies.

I know the Sufis always were and are very relaxed on sexual intercourse in all forms and they may have done sex magic, too.

And the similarity of Aissawa/Aiwass catches the eye, of course 😉

Do you think the Sufis had preserved some old knowledge which were lost to us? Do you think this still exists today?

I'd strongly recommend you read some of the works of Idries Shah, as it should give you a good groundwork on what sufis are about (particularly his book "The Sufis").

I think that Sufi teachers have preserved knowledge, I don't know about the "lost to us" part; rather, the real Sufis, far from trying to horde this knowledge, have tried to spread it out as much as possible and in as many forms as possible.

One thing that strikes me as admirable about the sufi method is the impermanence of the outward form of the teaching; generally speaking, the transmission of "realized" Sufi teachers is such that they will create something new and different from what their master did, while the old form inevitably transforms into a kind of cargo cult (that sometimes disappears quickly, while at other times it will linger on for as long as centuries as a now empty shell of an earlier teaching.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
12/08/2011 1:14 am  
"FraDiavolo" wrote:
PS I meant my cock in the line above... 😀

In the line above I meant it would have concerned Sufis Because there would have been a line of master pupil exchange alive which got extinguished by the persecution.

So they preserved their teachings in secret societies and alchemicial mystical images. But the Sufis got never persecuted, or was there a Sufi hunt too in Arabian countries?

Sufi teachers and individual sufi schools have been persecuted quite frequently. Mansur Al-Hallaj is one good example; Hafiz was constantly under attack from the clerical orders of his day (after his death they tried to have him buried as a heretic, but were thwarted; I write about this in the introduction to my book on Hafiz's poetry:: http://www.mystery-school.net/en/hafiz/life.ht m"> http://www.mystery-school.net/en/hafiz/life.htm ; later on the sufi orders were generally opposed and often suppressed by western colonial powers; and finally Sufism has been quite brutally persecuted and attacked by the wahabists and other forms of "fundamentalist" Islam (which actually have little or no "fundamental" about them, since they're basically a very modern invention based on a western influence); to the point that in a place like Afghanistan, which was once an incredible hotbed of Sufi activity, genuine sufism has been virtually extinguished.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
01/11/2014 8:38 am  

Do you know These guys: http://outercol.org ?


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Shiva
(@shiva)
Not a Rajah
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 5024
01/11/2014 3:50 pm  
"Fomalhaut" wrote:
Do you know These guys: http://outercol.org ?

Oh yeah! 😀
Well, maybe! ::)
Probably almost certainly so!

Subject to irrevocably true solid evidence

WARNING
Proceed at Your Own Risk
It is wise to destroy this flag after seeing it[/align:6r89up2r]

Since they cite their address as "Chancellor, BM ANKH, London WC1N 3XX, ENGLAND," which was AC's olde-time contact address, and since it has been linked in modern times to the "legally-recognized" OTO, then we can asume that this is the controversial* A.'.A.'. headed up by Hymenaeus Beta, Frater Superior of the OTO (Bill Breeze), and his fellow knights, of whom all mostly came from Motta's SOTO, but then transferred to McMurtry's OTO, and then came into power after McM died, and then decided that they needed to form an A.'.A.'. in contrast to (ie, "in competition with") other A.'.A.'. lineages, such as Frater Sphinx's deal, and Star System, and the McMurtry lineage A.'.A.'., et al, al, al 😉

See reply #1 on this thread> ] http://www.lashtal.com/forum/http://www.lashtal.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9]
for confirmation.

* NOTE: All A.'.A.'. lineages are controversial in one manner or another. Every "lodge" has members, and enemies who will say bad things about the "lodge" or "order" or "lneage" or its "leader."


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
02/11/2014 4:32 pm  

Thank you very much Sir! 🙂


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ignant666
(@ignant666)
Tangin
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 3139
02/11/2014 5:07 pm  

For whatever value the opinion of some guy on the internet (with no personal experience of any initiatory organization since the Boy Scouts of America kicked me out all those decades ago) may have, James Eshelman's version (which can be found via what some call the "fruitcake factory" at heruraha.net) seems to combine the most authentic claim of direct "apostolic succession" back to AC with a lack of the creepy cult vibes some others radiate.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
02/11/2014 5:23 pm  
"ignant666" wrote:
the creepy cult vibes

What do you mean by that?


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ignant666
(@ignant666)
Tangin
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 3139
02/11/2014 6:28 pm  

Mysterious hints at Thelemic "messiahs" possibly incarnate Dalai Lama-style in certain high-ranking members give me the willies. Wisdom is said to be found above.
I will say no more, and may well have said more than some will like.
Caveat emptor (et lector), your mileage may vary, never void where prohibited by law, etc.


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Candide
(@candide)
Member
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 49
03/11/2014 8:42 am  

I'd also agree that the "creepy cult vibe" is off-putting. In fact I'd go so far as to call it a warning sign. Although I'd not deny anyones right to claim connection to the A.'.A.'. if they happened to have piece of paper from a guy who had a piece of paper etc etc leading all the way from the founder.

I don't however see any reason to collate a paper trail with any sort of apostolic succession of the dalai-lama sort or the christian Papal sort, in fact I think that people making such claims are either delusional, or are trying to exert control from a weak position by claiming authority from an unverifiable source, which is a classic cult tactic. 

If it barks like a dog.......


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Shiva
(@shiva)
Not a Rajah
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 5024
03/11/2014 3:27 pm  
"Candide" wrote:
I'd not deny anyones right to claim connection to the A.'.A.'. if they happened to have piece of paper from a guy who had a piece of paper etc etc leading all the way from the founder.

You are confusing the planes. It's the OTO that demands a written charter in order to carry on the initiatory work. A.'.A.'. has no such rule or even a tradition of requiring any such paper.

I think that people making such claims are either delusional, or are trying to exert control from a weak position by claiming authority from an unverifiable source, which is a classic cult tactic.

It might acually be a case of ... AC having "initiated" someone (like Jane Wolfe or Achad), who then "initiated" someone (like Seckler or Burlingame), who then "initiated" someone (like McMurtry or Eshelman or Capricornus), who then "initiated" someone like Cornelius or Frater Shem). In which case the "claim" would be legitimate (that is, "true"), and there's no need for a piece of paper.

On the other hand, there is historical evidence that some folks have claimed A.'.A.'. derivation, but the "people trail" is unproven, or as you say, "unverifiable," or (heaven forbid) it has been shown to be an outright, invented falsehood. Buyer beware!  Oh, actually, it's free - so "joiner" beware!

If it barks like a dog ...

... then it's probably a dog. In OTO terms, a charter is required because (1) it's a freemason tradition, and OTO is a masonic offshoot, and (2) no "work" is required in order to progress through the grades. It's kind of an "old boys network" where one gets elevated because one fits in and gets along with whomever is in charge and is signing the required charters.

On the other foot, A.'.A.'. requires actual "work" to progress. So the system is self-regulating. Any claimant who allows his/her students to advance, when they haven't done all the work required (in the various papers labelled A, B, C, D, etc), may prosper for a while, but in the long run will prove itself false.

Anyway, A.'.A.'. was set up as a system of self-initiation, so anybody can have a go at it. But, frankly, anyone who is silly enough to openly "claim" A.'.A.'. status is simply asking for trouble in these modern times. I know of some folks who have adopted the curriculum, and the oaths, of the A.'.A.'., but who were smart enough to change the formal name of their system ... and they required that the "work" be done exactly as prescibed, and, sure enough, they prospered and produced initiates (not drones), and they never fell afoul of the law or society or those other competing groups.


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jamie barter
(@jamie-barter)
Member
Joined: 8 years ago
Posts: 1688
03/11/2014 5:00 pm  
"Shiva" wrote:
... then it's probably a dog. In OTO terms, a charter is required because (1) it's a freemason tradition, and OTO is a masonic offshoot, and (2) no "work" is required in order to progress through the grades. It's kind of an "old boys network" where one gets elevated because one fits in and gets along with whomever is in charge and is signing the required charters.

I am shocked and appalled to read of such an allegation, shocked and appalled.  (Think of the reaction of Louis, the prefect of police in the film Casablanca, upon discovering that gambling is taking place under his very nose – that should give you a clearer picture of my reaction...) 

What can the world be coming to?

Shaken to my very foundations,
Norma N Joy Conquest


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Candide
(@candide)
Member
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 49
03/11/2014 5:14 pm  
"Shiva" wrote:
You are confusing the planes. It's the OTO that demands a written charter in order to carry on the initiatory work. A.'.A.'. has no such rule or even a tradition of requiring any such paper.

Not so much confusing the planes as being a bit vague in my use of language, although I'll have to politely disagree with your assertion that A.'.A.'. has no tradition of paperwork. Since from A.C. onwards there have been oath papers that are signed by the initiates superior.

On the other hand paperwork is not the most important thing, no paperwork can ever replace hard work, and those Grade forms are pretty easy to forge, and so if (hypothetically speaking) I wanted proof that such and such an individual was connected to the Order founded by AC and Jones then I'd not necessarily trust such documentation since the forms are readily available online and any Tom Dick or Harry could sign them and tell me they came from a particular link back to the Founders.

On the other hand, when it comes to whether an individual is a member of the A.'.A.'. proper, who could tell? There are a few rules of thumb but I wont bore you with cliched quotes from AC's writings.

It might acually be a case of ... AC having "initiated" someone (like Jane Wolfe or Achad), who then "initiated" someone (like Seckler or Burlingame), who then "initiated" someone (like McMurtry or Eshelman or Capricornus), who then "initiated" someone like Cornelius or Frater Shem). In which case the "claim" would be legitimate (that is, "true"), and there's no need for a piece of paper.

Exactly that, yet such initiation does involve paperwork as already mentioned, or at least it did in Crowley's day and could perhaps be said to be part of the system, not that paperwork is necessary for enlightenment, it's just part of the particular system that we are discussing.

On the other hand, there is historical evidence that some folks have claimed A.'.A.'. derivation, but the "people trail" is unproven, or as you say, "unverifiable," or (heaven forbid) it has been shown to be an outright, invented falsehood. Buyer beware!  Oh, actually, it's free - so "joiner" beware!

Agreed, I'd regard it as part of the filtering process.

On the other foot, A.'.A.'. requires actual "work" to progress. So the system is self-regulating. Any claimant who allows his/her students to advance, when they haven't done all the work required (in the various papers labelled A, B, C, D, etc), may prosper for a while, but in the long run will prove itself false.

Agreed, and no amount of paperwork, sparkly charters or secret passwords can replace that.

Anyway, A.'.A.'. was set up as a system of self-initiation, so anybody can have a go at it. But, frankly, anyone who is silly enough to openly "claim" A.'.A.'. status is simply asking for trouble in these modern times. I know of some folks who have adopted the curriculum, and the oaths, of the A.'.A.'., but who were smart enough to change the formal name of their system ... and they required that the "work" be done exactly as prescibed, and, sure enough, they prospered and produced initiates (not drones), and they never fell afoul of the law or society or those other competing groups.

Self-initiation with guidance; A bit like Open University dont you think?.  Some could certainly do so without any formal connection to the A.'.A.'., although calling themselves an A.'.A.'. initiate would basically be a lie in all bu the highest sense (i.e. if they happened to be in essence an 8=3 or higher, and at that point only the individual concerned would know for sure.

Actually I completely agree with what you say about openly claiming a connection, as these days the A.'.A.'. does get dragged into to all sorts of political disputes which have nothing at all to do with the great work. And I like what you say about changing the name of the system, its something that has occurred to me in the past since the name carries a lot of baggage. The other option is to operate completely underground, no website or contact address in books published by associate Orders.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
13/12/2014 9:52 pm  

I joined 😉


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Shiva
(@shiva)
Not a Rajah
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 5024
14/12/2014 12:18 am  
"Fomalhaut" wrote:
I joined 😉

Congratulations ... I guess. Hopefully you hooked up with the real thing and not a group of imposters - as described by Therion in Magick:

The True Order presents the True Symbols, but avoids attaching the True Name thereto; it is only when the Postulant has taken irrevocable Oaths and been received formally, that he discovers what Fraternity he has joined. If he have taken false symbols for true, and find himself magically pledged to a gang of rascals, so much the worse for him![/align:3fsk9d4a]


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Candide
(@candide)
Member
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 49
14/12/2014 1:37 pm  

And don't be afraid to ask about the group you are joining, ask where they originate from, even ask about 'lineage'. An imposter group will put you off with such banalities as: "There are no lineages", or will begin by telling you that all the other groups are 'pretenders'.

There's nothing wrong with independent AA based groups, such entities should be judged on their results although I do feel that such groups should be open about their position, rather than waiting until the candidate has signed oaths before letting them in on the 'little secret'.

Bottom line: AA is not a political entity, judge each by there actions and words and don't be fooled in by imposing rhetoric, 'us and them' mentalities or other cult-type behavior.


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Anonymous
 Anonymous
(@Anonymous)
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Posts: 0
14/12/2014 1:45 pm  
"Fomalhaut" wrote:
I joined 😉

Let us know how it goes.  Hope you find what you need.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
02/04/2017 5:21 pm  

POINT ONE: An Account of A∴A∴ sub figurâ XXXIII
A∴A∴ Publication in Class C

[The Revisers wish to acknowledge gratefully the translation of Madame de Steiger, which they have freely quoted.]

It is necessary, my dear brothers, to give you a clear idea of the interior Order; of that illuminated community which is scattered throughout the world, but which is governed by one truth and united in one spirit.

This community possesses a School, in which all who thirst for knowledge are instructed by the Spirit of Wisdom itself; and all the mysteries of nature are preserved in this school for the children of light. Perfect knowledge of nature and of humanity is taught in this school. It is from her that all truths penetrate into the world; she is the school of all who search for wisdom, and it is in this community alone that truth and the explanation of all mystery are to be found. It is the most hidden of communities, yet it contains members from many circles; nor is there any Centre of Thought whose activity is not due to the presence of one of ourselves. From all time there has been an exterior school based on the interior one, of which it is but the outer expression. From all time, therefore, there has been a hidden assembly, a society of the Elect, of those who sought for and had capacity for light, and this interior society was the Axle of the R.O.T.A. All that any external order possesses in symbol, ceremony, or rite is the letter expressive outwardly of that spirit of truth which dwelleth in the interior Sanctuary. Nor is the contradiction of the exterior any bar to the harmony of the interior.

Hence this Sanctuary, composed of members widely scattered indeed but united by the bonds of perfect love, has been occupied from the earliest ages in building the grand Temple (through the evolution of humanity) by which the reign of L.V.X. will be manifest. This society is in the communion of those who have most capacity for light; they are united in truth, and their Chief is the Light of the World himself, V.V.V.V.V., the One Anointed in Light, the single teacher for the human race, the Way, the Truth, and the Life.

The interior Order was formed immediately after the first perception of man’s wider heritage had dawned upon the first of the adepts; it received from the Masters at first-hand the revelation of the means by which humanity could be raised to its rights and delivered from its misery. It received the primitive charge of all revelation and mystery; it received the key of true science, both divine and natural.

But as men multiplied, the frailty of man necessitated an exterior society which veiled the interior one, and concealed the spirit and the truth in the letter, because many people were not capable of comprehending great interior truth. Therefore, interior truths were wrapped in external and perceptible ceremonies, so that men, by the perception of the outer which is the symbol of the interior, might by degrees be enabled safely to approach the interior spiritual truths.

But the inner truth has always been confided to him who in his day had the most capacity for illumination, and he became the sole guardian of the original Trust, as High Priest of the Sanctuary.

When it became necessary that interior truths should be enfolded in exterior ceremony and symbol, on account of the real weakness of men who were not capable of hearing the Light of Light, then exterior worship began. It was, however, always the type or symbol of the interior, that is to say, the symbol of the true and Secret Sacrament.

The external worship would never have been separated from interior revel but for the weakness of man, which tends too easily to forget the spirit in the letter; but the Masters are vigilant to note in every nation those who are able to receive light, and such persons are employed as agents to spread the light according to man’s capacity and to revivify the dead letter.

Through these instruments the interior truths of the Sanctuary were taken into every nation, and modified symbolically according to their customs, capacity for instruction, climate, and receptiveness. So that the external types of every religion, worship, ceremonies and Sacred Books in general have more or less clearly, as their object of instruction, the interior truths of the Sanctuary, by which man will be conducted to the universal knowledge of the one Absolute Truth.

The more the external worship of a people has remained united with the spirit of esoteric truth, the purer its religion; but the wider the difference between the symbolic letter and the invisible truth, the more imperfect has become the religion. Finally, it may be, the external form has entirely parted from its inner truth, so that ceremonial observances without soul or life have remained alone.

In the midst of all this, truth reposes inviolable in the inner Sanctuary.

Faithful to the spirit of truth, the members of the interior Order live in silence, but in real activity.

Yet, besides their secret holy work, they have from time to time decided upon political strategic action.

Thus, when the earth was nigh utterly corrupt by reason of the Great Sorcery, the Brethren sent Mohammed to bring freedom to mankind by the sword.

This being but partially a success, they raised up one Luther to teach freedom of thought. Yet this freedom soon turned into a heavier bondage than before.

Then the Brethren delivered unto man the knowledge of nature, and the keys thereof; yet this also was prevented by the Great Sorcery.

Now then finally in nameless ways, as one of our Brethren hath it now in mind to declare, have they raised up One to deliver unto men the keys of Spiritual Knowledge, and by His work shall He be judged.

This interior community of light is the reunion of all those capable of receiving light, and it is known as the Communion of Saints, the primitive receptacle for all strength and truth, confided to it from all time.

By it the agents of L.V.X. were formed in every age, passing from the interior to the exterior, and communicating spirit and life to the dead letter, as already said.

This illuminated community is the true school of L.V.X.; it has its Chair, its Doctors; it possesses a rule for students; it has forms and objects for study.

It has also its degrees for successive development to greater altitudes.

This school of wisdom has been for ever most secretly hidden from the world, because it is invisible and submissive solely to illuminated government.

It has never been exposed to the accidents of time and to the weakness of man, because only the most capable were chosen for it, and those who selected made no error.

Through this school were developed the germs of all the sublime sciences, which were first received by external schools, then clothed in other forms, and hence degenerated.

According to time and circumstances, the society of sages communicated unto the exterior societies their symbolic hieroglyphs, in order to attract man to the great truths of their Sanctuary.

But all exterior societies subsist only by virtue of this interior one. As soon as external societies wish to transform a temple of wisdom into a political edifice, the interior society retires and leaves only the letter without the spirit. It is thus that secret external societies of wisdom were nothing but hieroglyphic screens, the truth remaining inviolable in the Sanctuary so that she might never be profaned.

In this interior society man finds wisdom and with her All— not the wisdom of this world, which is but scientific knowledge, which revolves round the outside but never touches the centre (in which is contained all strength), but true wisdom, understanding and knowledge, reflections of the supreme illumination.

All disputes, all controversies, all the things belonging to the false cares of this world, fruitless discussions, useless germs of opinions which spread the seeds of disunion, all error, schisms, and systems are banished. Neither calumny nor scandal is known. Every man is honoured. Love alone reigns.

We must not, however, imagine that this society resembles any secret society, meeting at certain times, choosing leaders and members, united by special objects. All societies, be what they may, can but come after this interior illuminated circle. This society knows none of the formalities which belong to the outer rings, the work of man. In this kingdom of power all outward forms cease.

L.V.X. is the Power always present. The greatest man of his times, the chief himself, does not always know all the members, but the moment when it is necessary that he should accomplish any object, he finds them in the world with certainty ready to his hand.

This community has no outside barriers. He who may be chosen is as the first; he presents himself among the others without presumption, and he is received by the others without jealousy.

If it be necessary that real members should meet together, they find and recognize each other with perfect certainty.

No disguise can be used, neither hypocrisy nor dissimulation could hide the characteristic qualities which distinguish the members of this society. All illusion is gone, and things appear in their true form.

No one member can choose another; unanimous choice is required. Though not all men are called, many of the called are chosen, and that as soon as they become fit for entrance.

Any man can look for the entrance, and any man who is within can teach another to seek for it; but only he who is fit can arrive within.

Unprepared men occasion disorder in a community, and disorder is not compatible with the Sanctuary. Thus it is impossible to profane the Sanctuary, since admission is not formal but real.

Worldly intelligence seeks this Sanctuary in vain; fruitless also will be the efforts of malice to penetrate these great mysteries; all is indecipherable to him who is not ripe; he can see nothing, read nothing in the interior.

He who is fit is joined to the chain, perhaps often where he thought least likely, and at a point of which he knew nothing himself.

To become fit should be the sole effort of him who seeks wisdom.

But there are methods by which fitness is attained, for in this holy communion is the primitive storehouse of the most ancient and original science of the human race, with the primitive mysteries also of all science. It is the unique and really illuminated community which is absolutely in possession of the key to all mystery, which knows the centre and source of all nature. It is a society which unites superior strength to its own, and counts its members from more than one world. It is the society whose members form the republic of Genius, the Regent Mother of the whole World.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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02/04/2017 5:23 pm  

POINT TWO: from "One Star in Sight"

3. The Order of the S. S. is composed of those who have crossed the Abyss; the implications of this expression may be studied in Liber 418, the 14th, 13th, 12th, 11th, 10th, and 9th Aethyrs in particular.

All members of the Order are in full possession of the Formulae of Attainment, both mystical or inwardly-directed and Magical or outwardly-directed. They have full experience of attainment in both these paths.

They are all, however, bound by the original and fundamental Oath of the Order, to devote their energy to assisting the Progress of their Inferiors in the Order. Those who accept the rewards of their emancipation for themselves are no longer within the Order.

Members of the Order are each entitled to found Orders dependent on themselves on the lines of the R. C. and G. D. orders, to cover types of emancipation and illumination not contemplated by the original (or main) system. All such orders must, however, be constituted in harmony with the A∴A∴ as regards the essential principles. ...

6. ... Any neophyte of the Order (or, as some say, any person soever) possesses the right to claim the Grade of Master of the Temple by taking the Oath of the Grade.


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