Hello,
So how are you getting along in your studies of Aleister Crowleys works, and how have they influenced your current state of philosophia?

Time you had your eyesight checked, perhaps? The poster was talking about reading books by Kenneth Grant, not Aleister Crowley.

Best wishes,

Michael.

Yes perhaps!

Ok, Naasbite, so having read all the trilogies, with the exception of the last two which I am working towards in the logical progression, At the feet of the Guru and various other books/ articles by Mr Grant I would like to comment that the books require either an astute inbred faculty to very quickly assimilate the subject matters contained within, rather like the works of Aleister Crowley they require deep study in conjunction with experimentation to obtain the required understanding. They are as stated elsewhere well worth the effort and I would confirm other opinions to this effect. They are most assuredly a gourmets smorgasbord of delights to temp the discerning palate. They, I would suggest in MHO well reward repeated tastings.
Should have gone to spec savers eh Michael 8)

I find most of the criticism of Grant comes from people who haven’t read his books, and the most scathing criticism from those who tried and failed to read them. So the most negative feelings come from a position of being unable to comprehend. User error.

A lot of folks get angry because Grant does not paint a picture of Crowley or Thelema that they like. Who cares? There are more hanging in the gallery; step to the right. As Thomas Karlsson put it, “Magick is a life path that requires action and practice”. Grant has continuously contributed to the occult community for longer than most of us have been alive. If you don’t like what he has to say, say something yourself. Participate, create, experiment, and pass the lessons you learn on to others. Don’t talk about it, BE about it.

This is the standard line from Grant's followers, and it's worth commenting on as a wonderful example of the way Grantians protect themselves from criticism. What is required, they seem to be saying, is someone who not only doesn't like Grant's books but (after reading one or two, and realising this) is nevertheless willing to purchase at vast expense all his books, then spend many days reading them, simply for the privilege of being entitled, in your eyes, to criticise Grant. That's obviously never going to happen, is it? Therefore you can cover your eyes and give the teenage chant "They don't understand us!"

That's a very juvenile characterisation of the criticism. The problem with Grant is that he repeatedly makes statements about Crowley that simply do not represent Crowley's writings or known statements -- period. To paraphrase yourself, praise for Grant comes from people who haven't read Crowley's books and so have no idea just how bizarre and stupid Grant's comments about Crowley and Thelema really are. Then they get together in groups and bitch about Grant's critics without ever addressing any of the substance of the criticism. I wonder why?

In other words, it's only alright to talk about Grant if one thinks, as you do, that he has "continuously contributed", yadda yadda yadda. Well he has continuously contributed: nonsense, that's what. What you've just done is give a general criticism of criticism. So why are you going around criticising people yourself?

Come come Ian, the Blitzkreig has made your initial gains, however surely you have no wish for a war of attrition to follow. People need peace to follow war so lets accept chaque un a son gout! N'est pas?

Welcome to LAShTAL, Ariock. Good to have you here.

Best wishes,

Michael.

LOL.

This, oddly enough, is really my greatest concern about Typhonian Thelema, that people will neglect a plane of existence that, imo, they were voluntarily, deliberately born into by true Will, and fail to apply the principles of the Law of Thelema to the glaring needs of that "Material world." But, that's just me.

I don't think there is any need to worry on that score, Camlion. Obviously, magic and mysticism are the major passions in my life, have been for the last fifty years, and will remain so for hopefully the next fifty years. I consider myself to be fully involved with what is around me. By profession a programmer/analyst, I'm perfectly able to use rationality as a tool when I consider it appropriate - having a lucrative IT contract lined up, my employers obviously find my skills to their liking. For many years I have had a love of Arsenal Football Club; like walking across Hampstead Heath; help little old ladies across the road; run errands for sailors; chew gum and walk down the street at the same time; etc etc etc. I can cut the mustard with the best of 'em, me. The only thing missing is running the London Marathon, but perhaps soon.

Understanding has distilled over the years, and I become increasingly aware of True Will operating through me. Others may well demur, but that's tough.

Best wishes,

Michael.

Thanks for the clarification, Michael. I just have a problem with escapism throwing things out of balance. 😉

This, oddly enough, is really my greatest concern about Typhonian Thelema, that people will neglect a plane of existence that, imo, they were voluntarily, deliberately born into by true Will, and fail to apply the principles of the Law of Thelema to the glaring needs of that "Material world." But, that's just me.

I think this is a legit concern and should be addressed by anyone involved in this rather sprawling field of interest and activity we call "Magic." Despite the name-calling and assumptions which have been flying about like so much vomit, I will call attention to the fact that there are very consistent links between KG's writings and those of Michael Bertiaux. MB, at the onset of his own course in occult philosophy and esoteric vudu, emphasizes that the occultist does not morbidly retreat from the "real world" but grows in an understanding of all phenomena, thereby opening to a deeper appreciation of all things as vital to the Path of Life, which is unfolding along the Way of Will. This will lead into the "non-duality" underlying much of Grant's writings and it finds us liberated from the notion of our "occult activities" being at odds with daily life. Increasingly the type of thinking "Oh, I'm stuck at work or in traffic but tonight I can do MAGICK!" evaporates within me. If there is any confusion, we can take it back to there being one "lawful action" in every moment-and whether it is classified as "magickal" or "mundane," it is the essence of Thelema to DO WHAT THOU WILT. "Magick" as a retreat from one's life requires a corrective not an indulgence.

It's very good when this sort of conflict dissolves and, for those who are so-inclined, it forms a safe and sane foundation for entering...oh, hell...The Mauve Zone! 🙂

I consider myself to be fully involved with what is around me.

Must be a Typhonian quality! 😉

The Nazi comparison seems accurate re intolerance of views outside ones belief systems.

Godwin's Law...

Well at least entente cordial.... anyone for an entente cordiale?

Does that come with ice? Only kidding... 😆

How else! Cools things down to a nice temperature nicely.

Well, it is nice to see devoted magickal Neophites/Zelators/Magus"s/ect in their prime discord. One cannot do without the positive current when working with elecricity and one cannot do without the negative current, if one wants to obtain results! In other words we should respect our brother magicians, for they follow their path instinctively. I love a good debate if it proves a beneficial-result . Im all for Aleister and all for Kenneth, they supply thelema with two channels , two magical-planes. Heck, Crowley learned much from his travels from various occult practices. It would be wrong to dive straight into any order/group without first gaining knowledge of other Magickal formulas! I recognise Dark and light pyschic phenomenon because I have studied many Formulas and Magickal avenues. Thelema was an Inspiration by Crowley but he first had to explore all occult avenues. Hence I do not dispute or despise such practices as Typhonian/Voodoo/Wicca/Kundalini/buddhist ect, ect. But in saying that I love to see good debate in a moderate attitude. Hell, the entitys and beings about us are gathering even now. Bless Thelema bless Aiwass and Aleister. Do what thou Will shall be the whole of the Law. Naasbite

Along these lines has anyone here ever read any of the works of Hans Vaihinger particularly 'The Philosophy of As if' which provides a cornerstone of both Kenneth Grant's work and Austin Spare's writings as well? In particular the concept of 'useful fictions'. Perhaps a useful line of enquiry can be why Kenneth Grant uses material the way he does in his books; after all a useful fiction takes a transparent view of 'fact' rather than a too literal one - except where a literal fact may also become a useful fiction or 'as if' it were literally true. For example a working that took awakening Cthulu as its literal aim to awaken the conscious mind to the literal reality of the subconscious?

Regards

J.

should read: literal reality of the sleeping subconscious

J.

Never heard of Hans Vaihinger before, but I wish to know more about him, just read a little bit about him and yes, must admit he provides important material for both the understandings of the works of Grant and Spare, wise words about useful fictions and literal facts!

I've recently aquired some albums by Count Basie, particularly his "Greatest Hits" which contains "One 'O Clock Jump" that Grant mentions in OTCOT and elsewhere. I also have another album of his but it is not nearly as impressive as the other. I have noticed that his music does have the ability to transport the listener's consciousness to those "spaces in-between". I highly recommend this musick, and I agree with Grant's recommendation. I'm glad I followed his recommendation and purchased these albums. Turntables will definitely have their place in my Lodgeroom!