Notifications
Clear all

Aleister Crowley and the Hidden God  

Page 2 / 2
  RSS

Azidonis
(@azidonis)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 2964
27/06/2011 3:47 pm  

Thread marked for follow-up.


ReplyQuote
the_real_simon_iff
(@the_real_simon_iff)
Member
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 1836
27/06/2011 4:15 pm  
"Noctifer" wrote:
Every second new member - more like two out of three, probably - expresses a sincere practical interest in Grant and a desire to commune with others who share this interest.

93!

I don't intend to disturb your little dispute here, but what you stated here would actually be a good argument for some kind of commentary. Except you want to argue that all those new members have "years of prior study and practice" or wide "knowledge of the Typhonian Current" - at least there are only a few who boast about that. I don't have both (at least sufficiently for those few members) and would also be delighted to see comments of some kind (no need to call it spoonfeeding, except you want to call Grant's comments to Crowley's works also spoonfeeding), although I highly enjoy Grant's books without them. And I don't consider either any author's words or any commentator's words as absolute truth, but I simply don't have the knowledge of Grant's or Crowley's total opus to appreciate every reference and have found commentaries at times highly elucidating.

Anyway, I think comments would indeed be nice, and maybe some day there will be someone who is for Grant what Grant (not only Grant of course) was for Crowley.

Love=Law
Lutz


ReplyQuote
Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 3951
27/06/2011 4:17 pm  

I'm a little surprised that what started as an announcement of the forthcoming republication of Aleister Crowley and the Hidden God should be taking such a combative turn.

Though I appreciate that some people find Kenneth Grant a difficuly writer, the books will be republished essentially as they are, without commentary of any sort. Clearly the text will be reset, taking into account the Skoob errata and other redundancies. Commentary, interpretation, further development etc will take place elsewhere over the coming years.

Grant's work is growing in popularity; as his publisher since the late 1990s, I'm in a position to know rather than simply to speculate.

Best wishes,

Michael.


ReplyQuote
michaelclarke18
(@michaelclarke18)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 1264
27/06/2011 4:57 pm  

Commentary, interpretation, further development etc will take place elsewhere over the coming years.

This is what I would like to see, although I would like to see it relate to the text as a whole, rather than selective extracts, that's why I was thinking commentary.

Grant's work is growing in popularity; as his publisher since the late 1990s, I'm in a position to know rather than simply to speculate.

I think that's good news.


ReplyQuote
tc
 tc
(@tc)
Member
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 40
27/06/2011 6:33 pm  
"MichaelStaley" wrote:
Though I appreciate that some people find Kenneth Grant a difficuly writer, the books will be republished essentially as they are, without commentary of any sort. Clearly the text will be reset, taking into account the Skoob errata and other redundancies. Commentary, interpretation, further development etc will take place elsewhere over the coming years.

Forgive me but I feel compelled to repeat myself from an earlier post...'refreshing' , 'faith restored!' and 'thanks Mr Staley'. An intelligent, non cynical publishing programme with the reader's best interests at heart. Great stuff.


ReplyQuote
Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 3951
27/06/2011 10:03 pm  
"michaelclarke18" wrote:
This is what I would like to see, although I would like to see it relate to the text as a whole, rather than selective extracts, that's why I was thinking commentary.

It's an interesting idea, Michael, and one that I'll keep in mind. I shall be doing a talk at Treadwell's in the Autumn (after my return from Seattle) on Against the Light. A trilogies volume would require more than a talk; a workshop at the least; more likely a series of essays or a book by itself.

Best wishes,

Michael.


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
28/06/2011 12:55 am  
"michaelclarke18" wrote:
"Noctifer" wrote:
Every second new member - more like two out of three, probably - expresses a sincere practical interest in Grant and a desire to commune with others who share this interest. Just look at this very thread for evidence.

Perhaps you would like to start a Grant website elsewhere, as this one specifically relates to Aleister Crowley and Thelema. However, I would say that the degree to which Grant's work relates to Thelema is highly debatable. I think a lot of new converts miss that point.

I believe it's no secret that this site doubles as a KG site, of sorts, with the blessings of Paul, justified no doubt by the relationship between AC and KG (- between the men rather than between their work, imo). This is very generous of Paul, and would not be indulged on many other AC sites.


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
28/06/2011 1:19 am  
"michaelclarke18" wrote:
Spare maybe an inferior artist, but that has nothing to do with this thread.

Oh Spare certainly "isn't" inferior (to...?), and you're the only person I've heard to ever suggest he is. I mentioned your dismissal of him here as your dismissal of Grant as "incoherent" etc. reminded me of it, being identically ridiculous in my view.

I thought it worth noting, as perhaps your inability to appreciate Spare is related to your inability to appreciate Grant, especially given the strong influence which Spare's work has on the latter, perhaps in more ways than may at first be apparent. It's probably likely the two phenomena are related. So yes, it is relevant, which is why I mentioned it.

I get the impression that you seem to think that Grant is well above any form of criticism, is that how you see him?

Not at all. I'm just yet to see criticism of his work appear which doesn't seem like it's coming from a position of abject ignorance and inexperience.

Moreover I was actually thinking of another writer in particular and, before you ask, I am certainly not going to name them here. With respect, if you don't already know who they are then I'm not going to tell you.

What an odd thing to say. Why not? Are you afraid of what people might say about your sacred cows?

And you accuse others of holding Grant "above criticism"! At least we can mention his name. LOL. In fact, as one of my favourite magical writers I'd have to say that his name would be around the top of any such list I made.

That's hilarious and appears to be an intentional insult to his legacy and to the intentions of Starfire in their re-issuing of his work, which obviously wouldn't occur if interest in his work was declining.

Once again, you are trying to put words into my mouth;

"ambiguity & incoherence." "I feel that Grant is lazy sometimes". "can be a very clunky process". "A lot of writers hide behind frankly bad writing, and are not capable of making themselves clear; partly because they lack a good grasp of writing and partly because their ideas are not that interesting." (if this wasn't aimed at Grant, why put it in?) "those people choosing to follow Grant, and his style of occultism, is hardly a growing number...."

Those words? They're yours, not mine.

"Noctifer" wrote:
Every second new member - more like two out of three, probably - expresses a sincere practical interest in Grant and a desire to commune with others who share this interest. Just look at this very thread for evidence.

"michaelclarke18" wrote:
Perhaps you would like to start a Grant website elsewhere,

Why not ask our webmaster to close the Grant forums on this site if that's really how you feel?

as this one specifically relates to Aleister Crowley and Thelema. However, I would say that the degree to which Grant's work relates to Thelema is highly debatable. I think a lot of new converts miss that point.

I don't think they've missed any points actually (and I don't think they're likely to be 'new converts', either - they generally seem to be people, like myself, for whom his work has found an important place quite some time before any decision to share the interest) but it does seem that in order to make a statement like this, one would have to have missed pretty much every salient point involved. It's only 'highly debatable' if you've not understood what it was that Crowley was doing to begin with, and then compounded this with failing to understand Grant, Spare, this website, etc. etc.

Best regards
N.


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
28/06/2011 2:39 am  

I've only been reading and studying Crowley and Thelema for about 9-10 years. While I've learned much, I've much to learn. The ideas and world of Kenneth Grant are fairly new to me. My first book of his being the Starfire published The Magical Revival a few months ago. I for one am very glad to know that the rest of the books are gonna be published in order, and I'm looking forward to the re-release of Aleister Crowley and the Hidden God. If it were not for these upcoming re-releases, I probably wouldn't have too much interest in hunting down and paying the sometimes high prices for the rest of his books. So I'm very thankful to Starfire for continuing to make this material available.


ReplyQuote
Los
 Los
(@los)
Member
Joined: 12 years ago
Posts: 2195
28/06/2011 3:28 am  
"Noctifer" wrote:
It's only 'highly debatable' if you've not understood what it was that Crowley was doing to begin with

This is a pretty ironic statement coming from someone who has admitted in public that he thinks Crowley's "Do what thou wilt" means "Do whatever you want."


ReplyQuote
einDoppelganger
(@eindoppelganger)
Member
Joined: 12 years ago
Posts: 915
28/06/2011 3:44 am  

hey guys, can we lay off this thread out of respect to Starfire. Its not really the place, ok? I'd much rather see this one stay clean (and unlocked) for further news regarding this release.

S


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
28/06/2011 4:07 am  

Seconded.


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
28/06/2011 5:49 am  
"Los" wrote:
"Noctifer" wrote:
It's only 'highly debatable' if you've not understood what it was that Crowley was doing to begin with

This is a pretty ironic statement coming from someone who has admitted in public that he thinks Crowley's "Do what thou wilt" means "Do whatever you want."

Sorry if the English language offends you, Los.


ReplyQuote
Azidonis
(@azidonis)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 2964
28/06/2011 6:14 am  

93,

"einDoppelganger" wrote:
hey guys, can we lay off this thread out of respect to Starfire. Its not really the place, ok? I'd much rather see this one stay clean (and unlocked) for further news regarding this release.

S

Wish granted.

Off-topic redirection thread here:

http://www.lashtal.com/nuke/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&p=62283#62283

93 93/93


ReplyQuote
michaelclarke18
(@michaelclarke18)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 1264
28/06/2011 10:45 am  

Thanks for reply Noctifer....but I don't intend either reading or responding to any of it. You seem to want a very different kind of discussion - one that I don't care for.


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
29/06/2011 2:37 am  
"michaelclarke18" wrote:
Thanks for reply Noctifer....but I don't intend either reading or responding to any of it. You seem to want a very different kind of discussion - one that I don't care for.

I'm not sure what you mean by "a different kind of discussion", as I was responding quite reasonably I think to several points which you seemed to feel free to make throughout this thread, and it's not a one-way street. If you have no intention of reading my response, fine, but if you don't expect a response, why make such careless remarks in the first place?

Why refer to other authors whom you think are 'clearer' than Grant if you aren't prepared to name them for us to make the comparison?

Why suggest that Grant has no place in a website about Crowley and Thelema if you aren't prepared to stick by the remark and say it direct to the webmaster? What 'different kind of discussion' is it that I want as opposed to the one you are making with statements like this?

I respect the feelings of those members who have suggested that these things ought to be explored in another thread, perhaps the one linked to above.

Best regards
N.


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
29/06/2011 4:24 am  

Great news on the publication of Aleister Crowley and the Hidden God. Very excited to hear the rest of the trilogies will be published in order as well. I better hand my down payment over to JD now. Thank you Mr. Staley and all the Starfire crew for ensuring we all can have a chance at owning the complete set.

Although it is shocking that this announcement brought forth some views I didn't expect. And some interesting speculation on price not being determined by demand. HAHA


ReplyQuote
michaelclarke18
(@michaelclarke18)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 1264
29/06/2011 8:08 am  

And some interesting speculation on price not being determined by demand. HAHA

I have seen books, still in print, being offered for 1000% of their original value - usually from Australia. Looking at the speculators price, one would assume that the demand was quite great, even though the publisher may have many unsold copies they still wish to dispose of.

Copies of the Muller edition of 'AC & the Hidden God' regularly sell on ebay for between 25 and 55 UK pounds, so I would say that the demand for that particular edition is not especially great. But don't listen to me DYOR.


ReplyQuote
Ariock
(@ariock)
Member
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 108
29/06/2011 6:49 pm  
"michaelclarke18" wrote:

Copies of the Muller edition of 'AC & the Hidden God' regularly sell on ebay for between 25 and 55 UK pounds, so I would say that the demand for that particular edition is not especially great. But don't listen to me DYOR.

I would argue that copies of a book regularly selling for an amount far greater than its original retail price nearly 40 years after its release does, in fact, indicate a demand. Of course, we are not talking about a market of mass appeal here, so "demand" is relative. The books we of the LAShTAL forums love are not making the NY Times lists. AC and the HG in it's history, has gone around 20 years between printings, which doesn't indicate a wide-spread demand. That being said, the older edition aftermarket values continue to grow for copies in good condition and the text is widely available to download, which indicates there are plenty of people interested in the title. If even 5% of the people who viewed this article and the Starfire Facebook page announcement purchase the book, it will account for a sizable portion of it's print run.
Although I own this title, I will pick up a new one because I love the quality in production of Starfire's version vs previous editions. I do like some of the ideas floating around this thread regarding "extras" and I am sure the future will bring works that fulfill the desires mentioned.


ReplyQuote
michaelclarke18
(@michaelclarke18)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 1264
29/06/2011 8:20 pm  

I would argue that copies of a book regularly selling for an amount far greater than its original retail price nearly 40 years after its release does, in fact, indicate a demand.

I would also say that inflation has played a significant part. A few years ago one could pick up a load of bread for 0.22 UK pounds, at todays price the same loaf would cost around 1.20 UK pounds. So in 40 years I would definitely expect to see an increase. But by the same token, I have recently seen booksellers selling this item for between 25 and 55 UK pounds.

But that is just monetary value, I still intend to buy any new editon of this book.


ReplyQuote
Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 3951
30/06/2011 9:19 am  

Just to pick up some of the comments about prices. Though it is of course true that the market does determine the prices of second-hand copies, this is only in the medium to long term. In the shorter term, prices are more speculative. There is some company which lists on eBay some of the in-print Grant titles for twice the cover price. Since these listings appear alongside my own on eBay, it appears a curious sales strategy. Some of the prices for out-of-print titles are surprisingly large, and I sometimes wonder if the titles are really selling for these prices.

I'm aware of course that other titles - such as Hecate's Fountain, Beyond the Mauve Zone, or The Ninth Arch - are more in demand at present. However, at this stage I'm thinking more in terms of the accessibility of Grant's legacy than I am a holiday in the Bahamas, welcome though that prospect is. The publishing programme will go at a faster rate than in the past, so the later, more expensive volumes will be republished perhaps sooner than many think.

Best wishes,

Michael.


ReplyQuote
michaelclarke18
(@michaelclarke18)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 1264
30/06/2011 9:35 am  

I'm aware of course that other titles - such as Hecate's Fountain, Beyond the Mauve Zone, or The Ninth Arch - are more in demand at present. However, at this stage I'm thinking more in terms of the accessibility of Grant's legacy than I am a holiday in the Bahamas, welcome though that prospect is. The publishing programme will go at a faster rate than in the past, so the later, more expensive volumes will be republished perhaps sooner than many think.

I think it would be great to walk into a bookshop and see all 9 titles available to buy in one go. So that any enthusiast would be able to purchase whatever then needed, to complete their collections.


ReplyQuote
lashtal
(@lashtal)
Owner and Editor Admin
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 5304
30/06/2011 5:55 pm  

Mick,

A much-loved copy of the first edition of OTCOT, offered by me on eBay to raise much-needed funds for LAShTAL.COM and publicised through these Forums, raised only sixty quid, a loss of 50% on what it cost me, convincing me that you're right regarding the vagaries of secondhand book prices. I'm not sure, as I approach retirement, how long I can continue to use sales from my library to subsidise the costs of running and developing the site.

Owner and Editor
LAShTAL


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
30/06/2011 6:18 pm  

Well I for one look forward to the day when Beyond the Mauve Zone and The Ninth Arch aren't being flaunted for $600~1000+ by sinister book barons. Maybe then I'll be able to get a copy of both. 🙂


ReplyQuote
stanforda
(@stanforda)
Member
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 112
30/06/2011 7:43 pm  
"lashtal" wrote:
I'm not sure, as I approach retirement, how long I can continue to use sales from my library to subsidise the costs of running and developing the site.

I'm very hard up but when I can I'll donate whatever I can spare, I'm sure LAShTAL members will do their best to help. You shouldn't have to struggle alone with the site costs as you've given so much to keep such a special site open.

"MichaelStaley" wrote:
There is some company which lists on eBay some of the in-print Grant titles for twice the cover price. Since these listings appear alongside my own on eBay, it appears a curious sales strategy. Some of the prices for out-of-print titles are surprisingly large, and I sometimes wonder if the titles are really selling for these prices.

I've noticed this Michael and I agree with you, It's crazy! who would spend this much money on the current editions? I for one will only ever buy the current editions from Starfire, I'm sure I'm not alone in this either. As for the out of print titles, I'm happy to wait until they are re-released by Starfire over the coming years.

John


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
30/06/2011 7:44 pm  

I stand corrected, Michaelclarke is correct, I was wrong, I was being a bit too quick in my statements regarding price, and perhaps wanting to attack more than to relate.
The function of price in an economics classroom and in the occult book market are two entirely different animals.
Any way, I look forward to another Starfire gem.


ReplyQuote
Azidonis
(@azidonis)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 2964
30/06/2011 9:27 pm  
"lashtal" wrote:
Mick,

A much-loved copy of the first edition of OTCOT, offered by me on eBay to raise much-needed funds for LAShTAL.COM and publicised through these Forums, raised only sixty quid, a loss of 50% on what it cost me, convincing me that you're right regarding the vagaries of secondhand book prices. I'm not sure, as I approach retirement, how long I can continue to use sales from my library to subsidise the costs of running and developing the site.

As we've all discussed many times, I wouldn't mind this being a subscription-based site. Even at $5 a month, if there are really 8,302 members on this site, that's $41,510 per month, which I am sure will cover any costs for this site. Even at $1 per month, $8,302 a month should still cover expenses.

Provided the sheer amount of information on this site, not even counting the forums, it could easily have a premium cost. For that matter, you could charge $2/month to access everything but the forums, and $4/month to be able to see, read, and post on the forums.

It would also keep trolls out, and you would not have to worry about creating a separate, private forum unless you wanted to.

There's all sorts of things you could do with a premium site. We might even get an ignore feature! 🙂

Wrong thread, I know. Adios.


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
30/06/2011 9:41 pm  
"Azidonis" wrote:
"lashtal" wrote:
Mick,

A much-loved copy of the first edition of OTCOT, offered by me on eBay to raise much-needed funds for LAShTAL.COM and publicised through these Forums, raised only sixty quid, a loss of 50% on what it cost me, convincing me that you're right regarding the vagaries of secondhand book prices. I'm not sure, as I approach retirement, how long I can continue to use sales from my library to subsidise the costs of running and developing the site.

As we've all discussed many times, I wouldn't mind this being a subscription-based site. Even at $5 a month, if there are really 8,302 members on this site, that's $41,510 per month, which I am sure will cover any costs for this site. Even at $1 per month, $8,302 a month should still cover expenses.

Provided the sheer amount of information on this site, not even counting the forums, it could easily have a premium cost. For that matter, you could charge $2/month to access everything but the forums, and $4/month to be able to see, read, and post on the forums.

It would also keep trolls out, and you would not have to worry about creating a separate, private forum unless you wanted to.

There's all sorts of things you could do with a premium site. We might even get an ignore feature! 🙂

Wrong thread, I know. Adios.

Those 8,000+ members would probably drop by more than half should any subscription start, but even so it would be enough to cover hosting fees (I would imagine).

I think $12~15 a year is a fair asking price, especially when the alternative is closing the site. I mostly just lurk and read but I know the value of this site and its denizens. 🙂 I've been opened to a lot of new ideas and very interesting points of view, and I owe an immense debt in particular to the champions of Kenneth Grant here who inspired me to study his work.

I know this is off-topic but I'm chiming in to let Lashtal know that there would be support should this site have to go subscription-only.


ReplyQuote
lashtal
(@lashtal)
Owner and Editor Admin
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 5304
30/06/2011 10:52 pm  

Thanks for the constructive remarks - my apologies for the inadvertent derailing of this thread. As threads go, it's rather suffered in this respect already!

Owner and Editor
LAShTAL


ReplyQuote
Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 3951
30/06/2011 11:41 pm  
"lashtal" wrote:
A much-loved copy of the first edition of OTCOT, offered by me on eBay to raise much-needed funds for LAShTAL.COM and publicised through these Forums, raised only sixty quid, a loss of 50% on what it cost me, convincing me that you're right regarding the vagaries of secondhand book prices. I'm not sure, as I approach retirement, how long I can continue to use sales from my library to subsidise the costs of running and developing the site.

It's a matter of timing in this particular instance. Because Outside the Circles of Time was never reprinted by Skoob (though I have the print dummy they prepared, replete with pasted-in corrections and asterisks to indicate errata), the price of second-hand copies got very high. The republication of an enhanced version in 2008 rather knocked the bottom out of this market, although of course the £60 it garnered on eBay indicates that there is still a market amongst collectors for the original edition. No doubt we'll see something similar with the first editions of Beyond the Mauve Zone and The Ninth Arch when they are republished.

Best wishes,

Michael.


ReplyQuote
Page 2 / 2
Share: