I am putting this into the Kenneth Grant section as I am not quite sure where else it should go, and there is a KG connection in that the episode is described in his book Beyond The Mauve Zone on pages 227-8 as follows:
… [There was also] an experience of non-human consciousness recorded by the late Mr. Christopher Johnson. Whilst enjoying a tankard with companions he became aware of “the Noise”. Some of them heard nothing unusual, but others heard, or thought they heard a fleeting sound that was almost too vague to have acquired substance. But there were others – Mr. Johnson among them – who rushed out of the tavern “as if an urgent and imperious tocsin had possessed their incredulous ears with its adamant clangour.”
The compelling sound issued from the sky:“A Sound it was to bring to mind a sky-encompassing Bell, moulded upon gigantic vortices; a rotary roaring breath that yet possessed a core, a tongued and clippered nucleus, a nexus of electrical buzzing, the sizzling hubbub of a concentrated swarm, a pullulant multitude of celestial Bees! There, at the heart of the Noise’s complex presence, brilliant amidst the perplexity of spiralling harmonics, there poised an insectoidal Van Der Graaf Generator of unrelenting energy, one articulate Mind in a myriad bodies.”
Gazing up at the sky, Mr. Johnson perceived a “massive metallic H-shape. I considered that it might have extended itself across more than a square mile of sky; its very hugeness confounded estimation.” Mr. Johnson continued:
“The shape itself was insistent enough, to be sure, but it only formed the foundation for what appeared to reveal itself as a gleaming, reticulated city in the sky, crusted all over as it was with articulate and habitable-looking projections, as if one were beholding an enormous projection of the inside of one of those boulders which, when broken open, displays in profusion the facetted mauve spikes of the amethyst. The humming and ringing emanating from this vibrant raft, seemed to be instilling, with a sibilant insistence which was not unpleasant, something unknown and apparently alien into my mentality. And yet, could this not have been merely the tripping of a switch on some circuit long, long neglected?”
Austin Spare reported seeing in dreams cyclopean cities of utterly unfamiliar architecture which he supposed to have been based on alien geometries. Yet, all his artistic skill notwithstanding, he was unable to transfer to the drawing-board any semblance of the structures he had seen. As with Mr. Johnson, the ‘something unknown’ resisted all attempts to translate it into the language of terrestrial symbology, but it caused him to remember “things that evoked the awakening nostalgia of some loss.” Spare, likewise, was reminded of a vastly different past from which he looked back upon its ‘futuristic’ imagery. Mr. Johnson could not fathom, in his waking-state, the aeonic provenance of the ‘city’ revealed to him:
“Resplendent and perplexingly non-aërodynamic, the City hung upon the air, a mighty paradox, and then began to move with a deliberate majesty … until it stood over a forest of great extent, densely planted and dark.”
Before the object dematerialized in a blaze of light he thought of the Wise Men and the Star:
“Upon the disappearance of the ‘H’ of the flying city, so unlike the explosion of the other ‘H’ – the Bomb… a wave of some pulling tide could be felt, a huge tugging sigh from a sentient Force. And now the grasses were fibrillating. Small plump disturbances could be detected everywhere in the weird half-light which had supervened. Then strange little entities seemed to be erupting from the long grass in and around the forest … odd little creatures they were too. Yet I had an instinct that they had come, not to plague us, but rather to befriend us, although the amalgam of features they comprehended should have been disturbing. For they combined in their dark little gambolling bodies, the attributes of the Bat, the Mouse, and THE BEETLE!”[CAPS sic]
An H-shaped vehicle, an intense humming sound as of the amplified murmur of bees, a vast aërial city, a deep forest swarming with diminutive forms of alien life – and a bat-winged beetle; all indicate an expansion of awareness subtle enough to receive adumbrations of a future phase of consciousness yet to manifest on earth. …
Re the incident described, I happened to be with Chris on this occasion, or conceivably another one, or maybe even a different one in a parallel reality, when he definitely remarked on the “sound” (which at the time he described to me as “indescribable”) but I have no recall of him looking out and seeing the vision/ spectacle described. He may indeed have poked his head outside the door – I have no memory of it, but suppose he must have done at some point to investigate. But then it yielded nothing in the way of further evidence: I certainly would have remembered if he had informed of the panorama described! The anecdote, as Chris tells it somewhat floridly with the baroque purple prose of which he personally was so fond, has the sort of descriptive storytelling alien-world grandeur one might otherwise expect from the imagination of Stanislas Lem. (It also has elements of Philip K. Dick, in the insect-like buzzing.)
It took place in the Plough saloon in Museum Street, literally a stone’s throw from Chris’s place of employment as Publisher at Skoob Books, at about 6 to 7 o’clock in the balmy evening of a weekday in the early 90s (it would have been sometime before April 1992, which was when I no longer myself worked in the Holborn area. I suppose on this occasion, a magical diary would have come in handy…Tsk! Oh, well), when the bar was fairly full of after-hours office and shopworkers, a few tourists (it was also just by the British Museum), odd miscellany punters and the like.
I remember him telling me the same day about some weird witchy ‘ageless’ caribbean woman who ‘knew her stuff’ and used to come in to the shop and entertain him with her idiosyncratic voodoo and tall tales called ‘The Baron’ [sic]. He was going to introduce us, but we never met up. I have never been able to trace this enigmatic lady up till now, either. Anyway, back to the story… I can see Chris now, his briefcase clutched across his chest as if a shield, and perpetually looking as if in the act of being about to go (but never actually then going! to the good natured frustration of his friends who never knew quite when to bade farewell – but that’s another anecdote again) with a puzzled look on his slightly uplifted face, plainly listening in to something….
After a couple of minutes of this, some of the people around the table – and a couple of complete strangers standing nearby, too! – seemed to be hearing it – or at least, something – whether by powers of autosuggestion or something really a bit “ooky” (as Los might say) going on. To my immense disappointment I heard nothing strange though, strain I did like everyone else for quite lengthy periods. We must have all looked a bit odd with our heads upturned and quizzical expressions on our faces to the other patrons at the bar! Or perhaps, they noticed nothing. Gerald Suster (whom I was also with) laconically remarked that he thought he’d heard “a car in the distance, backfiring” (but to this day I’m not sure whether he was deliberately trying to be funny or not! It got a brief laugh around the table, anyway…)
Maybe Michael possibly might have some further information? I don’t recall if his co-Publisher Caroline was present, though she was working with Chris at Skoob at the time and might have been. Does anyone else have any more information about this happening, or was with Chris on another (the other?!?) occasion when he saw the flying city? Or does anyone think it was a product of his over-active imagination? Or…
From the borders of the hinterland of the Twilight – sorry Mauve Zone:
Clang clang clang (went the trolley),
Norma N. Joy Conquest
Hmmmm *swirls tea around the cup*
While Michael Clarke enjoys his cup of tea, indulge me for a Moment Outside the Circles of Time wherein I shall pull on this Thread to Weave a Magical Metafictional Tapestry.
When Chris heard the Bell it was the sound of the creation of a Time-Split. Into The Homeworld where Chris ventured Outside and saw the insectoidal Van Der Graaf Generator, and The Anotherworld where Jamie saw and heard Nothing. These two TimeStrands were Woven around the KeySpool, Beyond the Mauve Zone. A powerful magickal Grimoire (Perhaps the Powersource for the insectoidal Van Der Graaf Generator? Its Power emanating from Outside the Circles of Time, reaching from the Future into the Past?) I, N.O.X, the Timeweaver in the Night of Pan, invoke the Spider Queen of Space, and together using the Eldritch Magicks of the Double Current, We Weave the two TimeStrands into this Thread you see Before You. Combining the Two, Creating the Idealworld in which no Time-Paradox exists.
END TRANSMISS-ION
Ahem! Pardon me, my Mind had been temporarily inhabited by a Yithian. While my Mind inhabited the body of the Yithian inside their vast Library City I was told something truly terrifying. The separation into the two TimeThreads caused a rent in the fabric of Space-Time. The Yithian who invaded my body was on a very important mission. It was to unite the TimeThreads before the WHole sucked the Universe through the Gate, Yog-Sothoth the All-in-One and One-in-All, into Ultimate Chaos, at whose center sprawls the blind idiot god Azathoth, Lord of All Things, then no longer lulled by the thin monotonous piping of a demonic flute held in nameless paws He would Awaken....
Nice theory, NOX! I hadn't thought of an overtly Lovecraftian correlation. What more can I say?!...
In the cloudy forests of Pan
N. Joy
While I do not have any further information on the actual incident under discussion, I think it might be useful to put it into its fuller context within Kenneth Grant's Beyond the Mauve Zone, (1999).
Firstly, in his acknowledgements, KG has the following to say: "Thanks are also due for permission to publish two fine examples of altered states of consciousness; the one from Mr. Gavin W. Semple, the other from my former editor, the late Mr. Christopher R. Johnson, who was instrumental in overcoming many of the problems connected with the publication of this book and others in the series." (p.xii).
It is evident from this that KG had a personal regard for Christopher Johnson and consequently, a full confidence in the veracity of his account. In fact, there are several references to points of information shared between the two within the book, suggesting something in the way of a homage to a fellow collaborator.
Jamie has presented the gist of Christopher Johnson's account of his experience along with some of KG's interpretation of it, but those who own a copy of the book might prefer to consult pages 227-229, directly.
KG concludes by explaining the significance of these inclusions, on page 229: "The above two accounts - the one of a contraction of human consciousness [that of Gavin Semple], the other of an expansion [that of Christopher Johnson] - demonstrate abundantly the unyielding sway over the mind of a merely relative centre and focus of observation. In order that this sway may be relaxed and yield to the all pervasiveness of total awareness, mind should relinquish its preoccupation with the concepts of time and space. In other words the Aeon of Maat itself has to yield to the silence of the Wordless or Aeonless Aeon of Zain beyond the Mauve Zone, outside the circles of Time, and her consort - Space."
He is making an essentially mystical observation here, but one which may give a means of access to the understanding of what he means by his broader concepts.
Regards - Satan's Advocaat.
In addition, and to provide supplemental information, further to it being gjust “a gist” I presented the whole of the episode as it related to Chris, between pages 227 and 229 – verbatim and unabridged, right down to including two umlauts. The only thing which may have been omitted was, as you remark, the instance of a second example given as it related to Gavin W. Semple, and KG’s overview of these two incidents as a whole. The reason I did not include those too was that one (’s use of fair quote) has to stop somewhere & that I personally did not have any other information regarding Gavin Semple’s account and was therefore concentrating on Chris’s.
It is evident from this that KG had a personal regard for Christopher Johnson and consequently, a full confidence in the veracity of his account. In fact, there are several references to points of information shared between the two within the book, suggesting something in the way of a homage to a fellow collaborator.
Yes I agree with this perception. The decision to not continue with publishing the remainder of KG’s Trilogy and any further works (which subsequently appeared under the Starfire imprimatur) did not come from Chris nor Kenneth Grant, nor was there any falling out between the two of them & relations were always, I understand, cordial, productive and conducive to further collaboration. Unfortunately the proprietor of the publishing arm of the bookshop involved decided to fairly suddenly relinquish business dealings for personal reasons in that he was finding some of the material disturbing (or so I was led to believe), however I do not really want to go into this aspect further as he is still in locus, as it were, and maybe it should be left for him to comment further, if he will. Alternatively, I am sure that Michael might also be able to throw further light upon the matter, should he also choose to wish to do so.
He is making an essentially mystical observation here, but one which may give a means of access to the understanding of what he means by his broader concepts.
I am sure I would not be alone if I were to say that I do not totally get where KG is coming from in this summary. For one thing, I do not see that it “demonstrates abundantly” anything of the sort. I'm not entirely clear what the “unyielding sway” refers to and why it is such, in that I don’t see how the “merely relative centre” and “focus” fits in. I am Ok with the next sentence (apart from the fact that something whose state has just been described as “unyielding” is then made to “relax and yield”), but unfortunately the “in other words” in the one after that does not clarify matters further but fogs things up a bit by bringing in not only the Aeon of Maat but the Aeon of Zain to boot. Apart from the fact that this thread is probably not the best place to explore further the speculative issue of Aeonic succession (which is nevertheless worthy of discussion in some other place), I can't see any relevance or direct connection of this to either of the instances which KG has described.
Thanks for your contribution. Mine’s a double (if we’re talking satanic advocaats),
N. Joy
Whilst camping in the Sand Dunes National Park, I was privy to many instances of mysterious humming noises, coming from both everywhere, and the earth and sky, all at once. It was deep night, around 3 am and we were walking around at my insistence, looking for anything out of the ordinary. That part of Colorado is notorious for being the nation's number one UFO hotspot in terms of both the quality of the sightings and the number. On many occasions through the night we would hear a humming, buzzing sound, as if from an electrical generator, swarm of bees, or power cable, but none of those objects would be anywhere in sight.
My friend witnessed what he said was like 'two stars fighting' but later recanted his story as he is an unabashed scientific materialist, and was clearly embarrassed by what he had seen. It was an interested psychological exercise to watch him shift from pure unbiased reporting, to, as the shock wore off, an attempt at explaining it using his world view. It started as UFOs, and ended as something like, 'his eyes being tired and the stars shimmering.'
For my own self, I experienced a UFO sighting that night as well, as a series of lights silently moved from a midpoint in the sky down to the ground and then moved off. So I think there is something to be said for Kenneth's exposition of this Aeon including more incursions from Outside; the noise he mentions is very often the sign of such encounters.
Happy solstice everyone.
Or Grant and/or Johnson embellished a story of Johnson (thinking he was) hearing something that he couldn't immediately identify. It would hardly be the first time an author embellished experience to make it more interesting.
That's what happens when you fail a saving throw vs. spells.
Yours in Sol,
Los
I would like to add two HP by equipping my Cloak of Warding against Scientific Materialism, and do a skill check for Evading Debunkers.
In the cloudy forests of Pan
N. Joy
No, not a theory, Jamie. You might have missed this:
I've been doing a bit of Lovecraftian magick lately, as well as some Time Travel (playing my favourite game "Chrono Trigger") so I was inspired to have a little fun. I just thought you might enjoy my little story, that's all! ;D
No, my character is an epic level Scion and I just rolled a natural 20! At least you did get that I was just having a bit of fun, though! 😀
Hi Jamie. The way in which you chose to present the material from BtMZ makes it look less than it does in the book somehow. The fact that you went to the trouble (and the liberty ?) of reproducing all of the material, when you evidently have little regard or sympathy for the main thrust of KG's themes, makes one wonder why. The concluding paragraph of KG's which I quoted seems very precisely and lucidly written to me, I suggest giving it a little more contemplation; I have no intention of analysing it to death for your's, or anyone else's benefit.
If your real interest is not merely another example of 'look how clever I am by showing how silly Kenneth Grant is', but a genuine interest in throwing more light on Christopher Johnson's experience of an altered state of consciousness, then here are some further observations.
Los does have a very valid point re. embellishing stories. Christopher's account appears over-written and a bit eager to describe things in terms familiar from KG's previous books with which he was presumably familiar at the time. The account itself is of no great intrinsic interest to me, but rather the use which KG makes of it.
Also, note that recorded visions of floating cities seen in the skies has something of a history, Charles Fort collected several, I seem to recall and I'm sure there must be plenty of information on the web. Its not a new phenomenon, although the nature of the interpretations of what is 'seen' will be.
Best Typhonian Wishes - S.A.
Oh does it? That’s strange… maybe it’s “magic”?
Fair comment (on my part) and fair use of quote, I think. (Mick is welcome to sue me if I am in error. I speak as someone broke, ha ha!)
This is not the case, and I am not sure where you might have got this from. The piss-taker comment? Well yes, that is true, and I was speaking again from my point of view as a historian and in a way expressing my frustration that from this point of view at least, Mr Grant’s “history” of real events in Nu Isis Lodge is effectively worthless. To a historian. To someone reading his ‘fantasy’ in an appropriate context of detachment from this, that would not apply.
Your choice of course; I was not asking you to do this! We must agree to disagree here, although I concede I may have been particularly crtiical of his style in this instance.
Nor was I intending to look KG silly here. He can write some silly things sometimes, but then we all can & I don’t think anyone would chastise me for saying that, but he has also written a lot of interesting and unusual sense too. If you check one of my previous posts (Reply #38 to “Introduction to Liber AL Date” on the Thelema board) you will find that I actually have a lot more to say for him than against him, and the number of things which I find “goofy” are considerably outweighed by the number that I do not find so.
In the cloudy forests of Pan
N. Joy
No, not a theory, Jamie. You might have missed this:
I've been doing a bit of Lovecraftian magick lately, as well as some Time Travel (playing my favourite game "Chrono Trigger") so I was inspired to have a little fun. I just thought you might enjoy my little story, that's all! ;D
No, my character is an epic level Scion and I just rolled a natural 20! At least you did get that I was just having a bit of fun, though! 😀
Sorry, NOX – I ‘assume’ it’s some sort of a computer game you’re referring to. I regret to have to report I have never played one in my life, and am a virgin thereto. Jer think I’ve been missing out?!!
Just to add further to christibrany's posting, although I didn’t hear anything with Chris Johnson at that time, I have heard my own share of “unexplained auditory phenomena” – in my own flat, too! Odd vibration resonances and the like, which could conceivably be described as ‘insectoidal’ (not my first personal choice however) and have also disturbed visitors, especially lady friends. I have put it down to possible leak in insulation, as it were. I have also seen UFOs, or what appears to have been UFOs, in one instance, in the sense of looking up to what appeared to be like a ‘shooting star’ falling to earth at high speed and then abruptly changing direction & speed in the wink of an eye and heading off upwards again… So no, I’m not a complete sceptic here. (Sorry, Los!)
Zing zing zing (went my heartstrings)
N. Joy
Or, indeed, just ask me to remove it. This sort of 'fast and loose' approach to copyright sits uneasily on LAShTAL.COM, by the way.
'Worthless'? Over stated, I fear.
Owner and Editor
LAShTAL
Or, indeed, just ask me to remove it. This sort of 'fast and loose' approach to copyright sits uneasily on LAShTAL.COM, by the way.
Perhaps some proper clarification is required, Paul. I have not noticed anything specifically relating to wordcount, percentages, etc., on the Guidelines. And you may recall I have personally queried with you when I thought my use may have been excessive, and which you subsequently passed (in the greater usage matter of David St. Clair’s Bloodline.)
'Worthless'? Over stated, I fear.
I was speaking from the p-o-v as a historian only here, if you check the context. I did not state that in a magickal conext at all.
Regards,
N. Joy
I'm aware of your context, thank you, and questioned your use of the term 'worthless' within that context.
And as for the absence of 'percentages' relating to so-called 'fair usage'? You know better than to expect that from a web site. As for 'Bloodline'? Yes, you consulted me before posting (for which I was grateful) - the same is not true of this thread.
Owner and Editor
LAShTAL
I reciprocally question your non-usage in a historical context. Are you saying there is a clear factual basis for e.g. the bizarre deaths recounted in Hecate’s Fountain actually happening? In real life? I seem to remember you chiding me in that thread (“Membership Do Or Die”) for taking things too literally there. You can’t have your cake both ways, you know!
I genuinely apologise if I have got anyone’s backs up by excessive quoting here. I did actually refer to the matter (showing that I was sensitive to using too much) back in the first paragraph of my Reply #5 (q.v.) I also genuinely did not think Mick would have a problem with it – maybe he hasn’t?
Forgiven, Paul?
N. Joy
That's not the matter that's being discussed. My response was to your assertion that: 'from this point of view at least, Mr Grant’s “history” of real events in Nu Isis Lodge is effectively worthless.' It's not. That's not to say that I believe there is 'a clear factual basis for ... the bizarre deaths.' All it means is that his account is not 'worthless.'
Look, I appreciate that you're feeling a little bruised by some recent responses to your posts, but I can do without wasting my time moderating your stuff here.
Back to the thread, please.
Owner and Editor
LAShTAL
That's not the matter that's being discussed. My response was to your assertion that: 'from this point of view at least, Mr Grant’s “history” of real events in Nu Isis Lodge is effectively worthless.' It's not. That's not to say that I believe there is 'a clear factual basis for ... the bizarre deaths.' All it means is that his account is not 'worthless.'
Facts, sir, Facts are what I deal with in this area. Facts that can be proven, and/or facts that at least stand up to rigorous examination and sceptical criticism by interested readers. My ‘reputation’ as an accurate (albeit unprofessional academic) historian depends upon them. As Mr. Gradgrind cogently remarks:
"'NOW, what I want is, Facts. Teach boys and girls nothing but Facts. Facts alone are wanted in life. Plant nothing else, and root out everything else. You can only form the minds of reasoning animals upon Facts: nothing else will ever be of any service to them. This is the principle on which I bring up my own children, and this is the principle on which I bring up these children. Stick to Facts, sir!'
(Hard Times by Charles Dickens)[/align:23x03otp]
There is no middle ground with this business: it is either fact or fantasy (fiction).
I could invent phantasmagorical fiction as well as Mr Grant, should I choose to do so. The question is to what extent it (the effective value or worth of historical documentation) stands up as something more than a liminal & ‘fantastic’ account…
Seen And Not Seen,
N. Joy
You've reawakened the thread after six weeks for this?!
Owner and Editor
LAShTAL
You've reawakened the thread after six weeks for this?!
Ghosts from the Past[/align:3o5gp4hk]
You've reawakened the thread after six weeks for this?!
Ghosts from the Past[/align:5xau6l5f]
Sorry, Paul, I wasn’t aware if there was a procedure about re-awakening threads. I notice there is a ‘pop up’ alerting after 120 days, but it was less than that here. I suddenly thought about it & remembered that I had failed to respond at the time – when I was 50/50 about whether to respond then or not. Also my own perception/ reaction to time is not always a conventional one, and rather pretentious though that might sound, it is nonetheless true.
I think it’s a ‘pity’ in some ways that some very interesting topics brought up in the past have somehow inevitably fallen into a limbo by the way of things (to give the most recent example, yesterday I was reading through the fascinating “The Cult of the Ku” thread, which nonetheless seems to have run its course with the last posting over two years ago). Also some people start new threads on topics which could very well follow on from previous discussions or else appear in the middle of something very different (I have to plead guilty here!) & so it is not always easy to ‘search’ for any or all of the right connections.
The above posting also seemed a nice ‘contrast’ with my comments on Facts to Los in the “ ‘Know Thyself’: previous incarnations” thread in Replies #61, #63 and #83, in which I played satan’s advocaat and took completely the opposite viewpoint as per the Beast’s recommendations in e.g. Liber III vel Jugorum:
III.1.(b) By some device, such as the changing of thy ring from one finger to another, create in thyself two personalities, the thoughts of one being within entirely different limits from that of the other, the common ground being the necessities of life.
2. Of thine own Ingenium devise others.
Depending upon context, neither one is necessarily (or unnecessarily) any more real or indicative than the other, of course! Sorry I have nothing to further to add at the moment on the main topic, “Chris Johnson’s Noise” (and/or Vision); I really wish I had seen something untoward or unusual myself, but I just didn’t. However if anyone should have any further questions or points on the subject, I will try my best to answer them in the appropriate vein.
You can ring my Bell,
N. Joy
"The above posting also seemed a nice ‘contrast’ with my comments on Facts to Los in the “ ‘Know Thyself’: previous incarnations” thread in Replies #61, #63 and #83, in which I played satan’s advocaat and took completely the opposite viewpoint as per the Beast’s recommendations in e.g. Liber III vel Jugorum:"
That is your problem Jamie. You only play at being 'satan's advocaat'. Now kindly keep on running circles around yourself on this one and finally disappear in to that hole you've created in the muddle.
Regards - Satan's Advocaat.
Dear SA,
There is no problem. That is your perception! Possibly you have invented one though if you thought I took your avatar name in vain:
Heaven forbid, Satan’s! But if so, you have no need to worry as I was using the phrase in the same way as you presumably, originally did, in the general sense of the term being a play upon devil’s advocate.
But I play at everything in what is, after all, the lila! Don’t you?
Do you actually mean muddle here, rather than middle? But either way – I will (thanks! – oh, and see this * ? That represents my ass - you may kindly feel free to kiss it if you so wish! [Up to you] ;))
Ding-dong! Kling-klang!!
N. Joy
P.S., No further news on the Noise yet. No Vision on it either. (But, as Shaw Taylor used to say, “keep ’em open and keep ’em peeled!”)
Care jamie,
Actually, I just thought that you were being a bit of a cheeky bugger. I was pressed for time, as the library was soon to close, but wished to make my opinion known. Perhaps I should have said "the muddle in the middle". Otherwise, the rest is not worthy of further comment.
Regards - S.A.
Care Stan,
I think you are not the only one to think that!
Tsk, tsk, you may need to organize your Malkuth better so that you do not miss the library (how quaint that concept is in this electronic age, btw!).
Yes, ‘muddle in the middle’ sounds better – how about ‘malcolm in the muddle in the middle’ to extend the range even further?!
Yes, prob. the rest is not worthy of further comment… Back away from the fury to the sound, everyone please…
N. Joy
I wasn't there on the evening to which Jamie refers, and so cannot verify Chris's nor indeed Jamie's accounts. However, the possibility was raised that Chris had an over-active imagination. I don't know about that, but it may well be that for most of us the imagination is under-active. We must thank God that some people have "over-active" inaginations, because otherwise we wouldn't have the rich body of artwork that we have, of writers, of scientists . . . the list goes on.
One of my favourite quotes about imagination comes from Lovecraft, in a letter to a colleague (I don't have the provenance to hand at present, alas), in which he remarks upon the function of fantasy:
The true function of phantasy is to give the imagination a ground for limitless expansion, & to satisfy aesthetically the sincere & burning curiosity and sense of awe which a sensitive minority of mankind feel towards the alluring & provocative abysses of unplumbed space and unguessed entity which press in upon the known world from unknown infinities & in unknown relationships of time, space, matter, force, dimensionality, & consciousness.
Lovecraft made some further interesting remarks in the course of his story "Beyond the Wall of Sleep":
From my experience, I cannot doubt but that man, when lost to terrestrial consciousness, is indeed sojurning in another and uncorporeal life of far different nature from the life we know, and of which only the slightest and most indistinct memories exist after waking… We may guess that in dreams life, matter, and vitality, as the earth knows such things, are not necessarily constant; and that time and space do not exist as our waking selves comprehend them. Sometimes I believe that this less material life is our truer life, and that our vain presence on this terraqueous globe is itself the secondary or merely virtual phenomenon.
The third quote comes from Crowley's one-time colleague, J. F. C. Fuller, many years after their relationship had lapsed. Writing in "America, Atlantis and the Future", published in 1925:
The gods are not persons to be seen or spoken to, their utterances are delivered in oracles and these are normally cryptic and difficult to understand. There is a Pythoness in every one of us, and a Delphic cavern, namely our imagination, into which we must retire if we are to accomplish anything of worth.
This is not to suggest that everything which comes to us via imagination is a channeling of equal validity. However, imagination is not something which pales into insignificance in the light of "reality" either. Imagination is a vital faculty, without which we couldn't function.
And, of course, there's the really great quote from William Blake, regarding his own artwork:
If the Spectator could Enter into these Images in his Imagination approaching them on the Fiery Chariot of his Contemplative Thought if he could Enter into Noahs Rainbow or into his bosom or could make a Friend & Companion of one of these Images of wonder which always intreats him to leave mortal things as he must know then would he arise from his Grave then would he meet the Lord in the Air & then he would be happy
The imagination is a supremely important part of human life. We wouldn't have great novels, poems, symphonies, or operas without it. We wouldn't have the wanderings of Leopold Bloom or the fascinating journeys of Walter White or Tony Soprano. It's also thanks to imagination -- when it's paired with evidence-based inquiry and the equally-important mechanics for verifying claims -- that we have scientific discoveries and marvels of modernity.
Yet the stuff we imagine is clearly distinct from what is, as Lovecraft, at least, was well aware (being a staunch materialist).
From the perspective of Thelemic practice, the ability to distinguish between the two (that is, between the imaginary and the real, between what one actually is and what one fondly imagines oneself to be) is fundamental.
An "overactive imagination," in the sense of actually confusing the two, would in fact hamper one's ability to practice Thelema.
It take your point, but...
If you see it, you saw it and that is a fact.
If you dreamt it, you dreamt it and that is a fact.
If you thought it, you thought it and that is a fact.
If you daydreamed it, you daydreamed it and that is a fact.
If you imagined it, you imagined it and that is a fact.
If you willed it into existing in your minds eye, then it existed at the very least within your minds eye, and that is a fact.
Also consider that all thoughts may not be your own and therefore arguably even if this was a product of your mind, was it in fact a originally a product of your mind? is that a fact?
I may say the above with a sense of humour but I also mean to make a serious point, that what occurs in the mind is no less a fact. Even if someone sets out to weave a fabric of lies, I believe often what they weave has value and that sometimes we channel things rather than originate them.
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Hamal
I see your point, Hamal (“up to a point”, as I keep having to say to Los ;D): in a nutshell, you seem to be stating (please correct me if I’m wrong) that everything which one can experience can be considered to have a factual basis? But you lost me a bit with your penultimate paragraph:
Firstly, if these thoughts are not “one’s own”, then whose are they? Then your usually clear & cogent style completely falls to bits in the circular second part of the sentence, viz. “even if this was a product of your mind, was it… originally a product of [said] mind?” Therefore to answer your final sentence from that paragraph – no, that is not a fact.(!)
Incidentally, the same consideration of
could equally well apply to L. Ron Hubbard (or J.R.R. Tolkein, or J. K. Rowling, or…). Although it is certainly always not at all clear where the demarcation line between fact and fantasy lies, and there is a (mauve?) space – like the interlocking areas of a Venn diagram – where it is possible for the two to link up. However I think we are all agreed, that numerous members of Kenneth Grant’s Nu-Isis Lodge did not go for a burton during the course of their magical activities as outlined for instance in his Hecate’s Fountain…
Attempting to avoid any undue “noise” in preference of a clear signal,
N. Joy