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Grant's claim that Heru is the root word of Hero

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saturnalia
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Something that stood out to me whilst reading my newly obtained copy of Aleister Crowley and the Hidden God was the following claim in Chapter 4: 

Horus is described as "a god of War and of Vengeance" (AL, 111, 3). Horus and Ares (Mars) are identical in name and nature; the Greek version of the war-god is based upon the Egyptian original, from which our word "hero" derives. Horus, or Heru, was the Hero, the solar vanquisher of the demon of darkness and of the dragon of the deep.

Are there any reputable sources to support this etymological claim regarding the word "Hero"?


   
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katrice
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Posted by: @saturnalia

 

Are there any reputable sources to support this etymological claim regarding the word "Hero"?

Not that I know of.  If I recall correctly, "hero" derives from the Greek term for demigod, "heros".  

 

Grant's etymology is frequently creative. This is the guy who linked "Tantra" with "tantrum". 


   
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Shiva
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Posted by: @saturnalia

Are there any reputable sources to support this etymological claim regarding the word "Hero"?

I came to the same conclusion, myself, without reading Grant say so. But I am not a reputable source of etymology. 

 


   
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Tiger
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" There is frequent confusion in the attributes and genealogies of the gods in their theogonies, as given to the world by half initiated writers. "
" The boundless infinite unity remains virgin soil, untrodden by ordinary thought, untouched by fruitless speculation. "
The Secret Doctrine by H.P.B. pg 43

For the apostles of infinite space, the spirit principle, the god force behind the manifestation, animating the perception taking place; comes through the veil, shedding the blood of conception; as the earth matter opens up and modulates the waveform which weaves and interweaves throughout the fabric of existence, at times visibly, at other times invisibly; the hero heru solar deity can hold a lion serpent form.
-Inspired from a glimpse into Aleister Crowley and The Hidden God by Kenneth Grant.

that's how i sometimes do my etymology.
i hope that's reputable enough.

 


   
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katrice
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"late 14c., "man of superhuman strength or physical courage," from Old French heroe (14c., Modern French héros), from Latin heros (plural heroes) "hero, demi-god, illustrious man," from Greek hērōs (plural hērōes) "demi-god," a variant singular of which was hērōe. This is of uncertain origin; perhaps originally "defender, protector" and from PIE root *ser- (1) "to protect," but Beekes writes that it is "Probably a Pre-Greek word."

 

https://www.etymonline.com/word/hero


   
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saturnalia
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I am ultimately trying to establish whether or not Grant is utilising etymology like gematria. A potential source of Grant might be Gerald Massey's Ancient Egypt, the Light of the World (1907) where he writes:

If there is any one figure constellated in heaven as the hero par excellence, in various characters, it is pre-eminently that of Orion. This, as Egyptian, is Horus or Heru. The word Heru signifies the chief; the one who is the over-lord, the ruler, the mighty one, the hero.


   
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katrice
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Posted by: @saturnalia

I am ultimately trying to establish whether or not Grant is utilising etymology like gematria. A potential source of Grant might be Gerald Massey's Ancient Egypt, the Light of the World (1907) where he writes:

If there is any one figure constellated in heaven as the hero par excellence, in various characters, it is pre-eminently that of Orion. This, as Egyptian, is Horus or Heru. The word Heru signifies the chief; the one who is the over-lord, the ruler, the mighty one, the hero.

If you count etymological sources as reputable, the answer is no, there are no reputable sources that back it up.  Grant's use of etymology, like his use of gematria, seems to draw on wishful thinking, fitting results to fit predetermined conclusions, and UPG. Massey seems to have been guilty of similar things himself. I find Massey's works interesting, but more from a mythic perspective than from an authentically historical perspective. 


   
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ignant666
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Posted by: @katrice

Grant's use of etymology, like his use of gematria, seems to draw on wishful thinking, fitting results to fit predetermined conclusions, and UPG.

Rather similar to AC in this, of course, although perhaps more expansive in his use of both.


   
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hadgigegenraum
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Posted by: @katrice
Posted by: @saturnalia

I am ultimately trying to establish whether or not Grant is utilising etymology like gematria. A potential source of Grant might be Gerald Massey's Ancient Egypt, the Light of the World (1907) where he writes:

If there is any one figure constellated in heaven as the hero par excellence, in various characters, it is pre-eminently that of Orion. This, as Egyptian, is Horus or Heru. The word Heru signifies the chief; the one who is the over-lord, the ruler, the mighty one, the hero.

If you count etymological sources as reputable, the answer is no, there are no reputable sources that back it up.  Grant's use of etymology, like his use of gematria, seems to draw on wishful thinking, fitting results to fit predetermined conclusions, and UPG. Massey seems to have been guilty of similar things himself. I find Massey's works interesting, but more from a mythic perspective than from an authentically historical perspective. 

Is it not all made up "once again all over again"

Etymological magicks are by definition accepted through the grammars of their very illusive nature which certainly works in those permissions that waft from the recitation of such words...as a though they have never been heard...but for some first time, or something familiar, but you can't place it...

 


   
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katrice
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Posted by: @hadgigegenraum
Posted by: @katrice

Is it not all made up "once again all over again"

Etymological magicks are by definition accepted through the grammars of their very illusive nature which certainly works in those permissions that waft from the recitation of such words...as a though they have never been heard...but for some first time, or something familiar, but you can't place it...

I have no issues with UPG if it's presented as that, but when someone asks for reputable sources, i think of documented, objective world evidence.  Grant and Massay may claim that the word hero derives from Horus all they want, but no objective evidence exists to support the claim. Let us not mix the planes and confuse subjective and objective, even though they both have value.


   
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hadgigegenraum
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@katrice

Who cares about reputable sources, objective world evidence and other conventions, we are talking Magick here, gods of confusion, twilight and wolfing hours, breezes of strange sounds bearing perfumes and may I even say... "transgressive practices"....

As amidst the churning maelstrom might emerge

Heru?

_._

 


   
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katrice
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Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

@katrice

Who cares about reputable sources, objective world evidence and other conventions,   

The person who started this thread asked for reputable sources:

Posted by: @saturnalia

Are there any reputable sources to support this etymological claim regarding the word "Hero"?

And personally, I care too. I find great value in learning how things were done in the past. Even if I do take things in my own direction, I feel learning history and tradition has value too.      

 


   
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ignant666
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Posted by: @katrice

Let us not mix the planes and confuse subjective and objective, even though they both have value.

Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

[mixes the planes]

It is easy enough to acquire a head full of mush and bullshit by believing any claim that comes along, but the result is... a head full of mush and bullshit.

Remember "the method of science"?


   
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 Anonymous
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Faulkner's Dictionary of Middle Egyptian does not yield a lot on Heru (Gardiner is here)

Budge often has a lot more words even if the translations are sometimes out of date.  Have not looked into it recently.  OED first entry on hero (different word)

"hero, n.

(ˈhɪərəʊ)

Pl. heroes (ˈhɪərəʊz). Forms: 6–7 heros, heroë, 6–8 heroe, 7– hero; pl. 4–7 heroës, 7– heroes (7 hero's).

[Ultimately ad. L. hērō-s, pl. hērō-ēs, a. Gr. ἥρω-ς, pl. ἥρω-ες. In early use the L. or Gr. singular hērōs and pl. hēˈrō-ēs appear unchanged (cf. F. héros sing. from 14th c.); beside them is also found a sing. ˈhero-ë like obs. F. heroë (Cotgr.), It. eroe, Sp. heroe; this became later he-roe, and finally hero. The pl. heroes is now disyllabic.]

1.1 Antiq. A name given (as in Homer) to men of superhuman strength, courage, or ability, favoured by the gods; at a later time regarded as intermediate between gods and men, and immortal.
   The later notion included men of renown supposed to be deified on account of great and noble deeds, for which they were also venerated generally or locally; also demigods, said to be the offspring of a god or goddess and a human being; the two classes being to a great extent coincident.
verse of heroes, the hexameter."

The Greek god is similar in sound Ἄρης versus ἥρως

 


   
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hadgigegenraum
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Mixing planes or is it just your deceitful publication of projections? 

 

 


   
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herupakraath
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The most recent reputable Egyptian word source is the Beinlich, but it has to be translated from German into English:

hrw: to be satisfied
hrw: be ready for cutting
hrw: Donkey, Monster
Hrw: faces, people

   
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Michael Staley
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Posted by: @saturnalia

Something that stood out to me whilst reading my newly obtained copy of Aleister Crowley and the Hidden God was the following claim in Chapter 4: 

Horus is described as "a god of War and of Vengeance" (AL, 111, 3). Horus and Ares (Mars) are identical in name and nature; the Greek version of the war-god is based upon the Egyptian original, from which our word "hero" derives. Horus, or Heru, was the Hero, the solar vanquisher of the demon of darkness and of the dragon of the deep.

Are there any reputable sources to support this etymological claim regarding the word "Hero"?

As has been suggested elsewhere in this thread, Kenneth would have taken this from Massey, whose works he first came across in 1948 and who remained a strong influence thereafter. Although I cannot be sure, I think Kenneth had in mind a passage from Massey's Ancient Egypt, the Light of the World:

"But the wars of Horus were fought in heaven and Amenta against the Sebau, the Dragon, the Serpent, with Orion for one of his great stellar figures. If there is any one figure constellated in heaven as the hero par excellence, in various characters, it is pre-eminently that of Orion. This, as Egyptian, is Horus or Heru. The word Heru signifies the chief; the one who is the over-lord, the ruler, the mighty one, the hero. This hero as Horus of the inundation was pre-solar. He was the annual bringer of food and drink before there was a sun-god, when the stars were the annunciators of the coming times and seasons to the waiting, watching world. Then the chacter was made solar, and lastly eschatological. Horus the mighty conqueror, the Nimrod, the slayer of the gigantic Apap, is the giant-killer of all later lore, not only as the solar god but also as the earlier elemental power, and the various legends are the reliquary remains of his several chacters."

Kenneth regarded Massey as a "reputable source".

 

 


   
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Shiva
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Posted by: @michael-staley

"This, as Egyptian, is Horus or Heru."

Gee-whizz. I came to a similar conclusion (in regard to Hero).

I took the first three letters ...

HER

HER

And added a "o" and a "u."

HERO

HERU

The "root" in this case is HER-

It makes little difference (to me) which language is involved. I have seen enough Sanskrit seep out from Ancient India into ALL the other lingos we are commonly involved with (English, for example). So finding a solid (accepted, or at least promoted) lingo-link is like discovering pure genetic DNA. In general, if they sound similar, there's probably a link.

Hoever ...

Caca (Spanish) does not equal Cake (English), even if they sound almost alike.


   
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 Anonymous
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I hate to be a spoiler to the party but the fact is
As Monsieur Michael wrote citing Grant
"If there is any one figure constellated in heaven as the hero par excellence, in various characters, it is pre-eminently that of Orion. This, as Egyptian, is Horus or Heru. The word Heru signifies the chief; the one who is the over-lord, the ruler, the mighty one, the hero."
Orion is identified with Sah and later with Osiris, not Horus.  Which is right on!  Grant was not a scholar!  Like Zeppelin, he was a creative@

   
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Michael Staley
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Posted by: @jg

As Monsieur Michael wrote citing Grant

The passage I cited was by not Kenneth Grant but Gerald Massey, from Ancient Egypt, the Light of the World. I quoted it because the passage cited by the original poster, from Aleister Crowley and the Hidden God, seems to have been inspired by it.


   
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 Anonymous
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https://youtu.be/fqfYy_il2-Q


   
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Shiva
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WTF? We're reverting to posting yourtub links instead of live videos? (Without caption, message, or context.).


   
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 Anonymous
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You are starting to sound like Ignant (without the wisdom of the music of New York City!)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEeIwooW0Uk


   
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 Anonymous
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Happy Saint Patrick's Day!  (Did not Crowley love Ireland?)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYu5QI687VI

Maybe a true Irish woman or man can do better?  When I was a kid in a foster Irish home I use to sing this song (not Bing's version)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1M-_oF588FE

 


   
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 Anonymous
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You are right Shiva!  And I promise to never again post any music!  Let alone random music which has zero associations with the Aleister Crowley Society. 

And I apologize to you Michael for misquoting.  I have all Grant's books but have only read a passage here and there. Believe it or not as I have grown older I have learned to appreciate the creativity and genius of Grant more.  Especially as I have learned how difficult it is to actually write a book.

Crowley was also a fan of Massey.  He cites his Lectures (which I actually did read) in his reading list. 

Massey's many a tome (Ancient Egypt:  Light of the World;  A Book of Beginnings;  The Natural Genesis) are available free online.  First editions use to be available at Moe's Books in Berkeley.  The Atlantis Bookshop in London (where I purchased the Hebraic Tongue Restored in 1980), probably also had them.  

Massey was a genius, but he might have done a little better by reading Antoine Court de Gébelin (who also influenced D"Olivet) a little more closely - but Massey (if remember correct) was not so much into Greek, Latin, and European tongues - but dug into African and other tongues not so well known.  Even at the dawn of the 20th century etymology had not quite well firmed itself up as a discipline.   Massey elaborated the Christ equals Horus thesis bandied about at the time.  


   
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Shiva
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Posted by: @jg

You are right Shiva!  And I promise to never again post any music!  Let alone random music which has zero associations with the Aleister Crowley Society. 

Oh, good. Next, maybe you can work on curbing the serial-posting compulsion. 


   
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 Anonymous
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Kick a man while he is down!  But I promise.  I will never post two posts (or more) in a row!


   
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fraterihsan
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Posted by: @saturnalia

Something that stood out to me whilst reading my newly obtained copy of Aleister Crowley and the Hidden God was the following claim in Chapter 4: 

Horus is described as "a god of War and of Vengeance" (AL, 111, 3). Horus and Ares (Mars) are identical in name and nature; the Greek version of the war-god is based upon the Egyptian original, from which our word "hero" derives. Horus, or Heru, was the Hero, the solar vanquisher of the demon of darkness and of the dragon of the deep.

Are there any reputable sources to support this etymological claim regarding the word "Hero"?

It's not worth taking too literally, in some of Crowley's own instructional and analytical writings he sometimes makes little claims like this, which are not literally correct but have a symbolic value. 

Like it's not like we have aversely people believing that the book of Isaiah was written in Latin, right? yet people still think that it uses a latin word in 14:12 when it doesn't.

"There is none that shall be cast down or lifted up: all is ever as it was." - Liber Legis 2:58
"To Me do ye reverence! to me come ye through tribulation of ordeal, which is bliss." - Liber Legis 3:62


   
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Shiva
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Posted by: @jg

Kick a man while he is down!  But I promise.  I will never post two posts (or more) in a row!

It is called The Finishing Blow. I did not deliver it.

Now, look. We all get caught up in double posting. You know how we tend to forget some critical detail of our epic revelation, with proof, and then we find to "turnoff edit" AI-thingy has locked us down out. Sou double posts are mostly overlooked.

Three is the magical number (no "k"). Three in a row is prosecutable, but nobody hardly ever does.

Four in a serial row is unforgivable.

So don't tighten your belt too much. There's a liitle wiggle-room available for serious posters ... but not for applying to any form of QBL.

 


   
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hadgigegenraum
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Seriously! Serious posters, in a heroic thread such as this, would certainly bring us around to talking about Sirius.....Grant certainly did!


   
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Shiva
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Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

Sirius.....Grant certainly did!

Yeah, that was one thing I took away and considered rather seriously. "Sirius is the One Star in Sight." What a concept (lining up the internal interior with the external exterior). The eternal eternity does not fit in here.


   
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Tiger
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Do you see that frog
with Mandibles in its mouth ?
right there,
from the side
of looking in;
to the human light wave.
There in the shadows,
as the dark Lemurian flicker
torments the space;
hiding the remote region
beneath the starry web
where time stands still.


   
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Shiva
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Posted by: @tiger

Do you see that frog

Yes. It is my Feng Shui Frog. It hold a healthen Chinese coin in its mouth ...

...


   
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katrice
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Posted by: @shiva
Posted by: @tiger

Do you see that frog

Yes. It is my Feng Shui Frog. It hold a healthen Chinese coin in its mouth ...

...

 

Jin Chan  😍 


   
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Tiger
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?20141021124524


   
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Shiva
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Posted by: @katrice

Jin Chan  😍 

In Anglicized English, spoken with a flat neutral accent without twang or oink, it is called a Money Frog. How coarse, gross, and materialistic.

Upon entry thru the main front door of your dwelling or office, please locate the 1/9th of the structure that lies to the rear and to your left (the back left square in a tik-tak-toe square. Somewhere herein, you may place your frog, small coins, pieces of gold and/or silver, enhanced with a purple color.

In Feng Shui ("Wind & Water"), such magic is performed casually, not as a money-grubbing practice. After all, there are 7 other tik-tak-tao squares left to deal with (travel, relationships, fame, health, knowledge, etc).

Um, this one reminds me of the holy hampster from your hilarious haiku(s).

Run, Rudolph, run!


   
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ignant666
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My long-lost pal Erik The Viking, an ex Finnish commando, and ex Finnish Hells Angel, and adept of several eastern martial arts, used to insist that feng shui was primarily about reducing the possibilities of ambush, and basically a more developed version of the old gangster rule "Always sit with your back to the wall".

Re tiger's recent contributions: More batrachian than ever.


   
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Shiva
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Posted by: @ignant666

More batrachian than ever.

I saw no evidence of back-tracking.


   
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 Anonymous
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A bit off thread - but on the subject of batrachia - here is an interesting article published today on the toad species Incilius alvarius

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2022/03/28/the-pied-piper-of-psychedelic-toads  

Do remember the first important fact – all toads are frogs, but not all frogs are toads!


   
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ignant666
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An interesting article. Another tale of initiation -> egotism/abusiveness/huckster-ism, via toad venom.

I smoked 5-MeO-DMT about maybe 10-20 times in the late '80s when it was still a legal "research chemical." The first time was the most overwhelmingly powerful drug experience of my lifetime, the equivalent of about 50 acid trips taking months if not years, compressed into about 5 minutes of earthly time. Highly not recommended for folks who do not have a great many flying hours logged already. I eventually sold most of it back to the acid-cultist hippie i had bought it from a year or so before.

Indiscriminately dispensing this stuff to persons of all ages, conditions and degrees of preparedness, and countering any bad reactions with bullying demands to "Smoke more toad!", sounds abusive in the extreme, and a classic case of "acid fascism".


   
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 Anonymous
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I certainly would not do any toad venom!  The only time I did DMT (one hit) was with Grady McMurtry back in '82


   
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Shiva
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Posted by: @jg

with Grady McMurtry back in '82

Ooh!  So you were playing around close to the edge - t least in '82.


   
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Keyzer Suse ☃️ FIGHTCLUB
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Posted by: @

I certainly would not do any toad venom!  The only time I did DMT (one hit) was with Grady McMurtry back in '82

Isn't toad venom equivalent to ceremonial magic? DMT is Death, after all. Time to move Beyond the forms, which limit.

I'll just watch The Outer Limits and let the phibians die screaming in the woods. Weir?

Too many tiny penii in the forests forcing the last when they failed to be First. Ha ha ha, the fiery fearlings, What Gods!!


   
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Shiva
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Posted by: @terroir

Time to move Beyond the forms, which limit.

It is noted that your formed "forms" have been limited. Your 15 minutes of self-proclaimed fame have been rendered, um, unformable, no more.

 


   
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katrice
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Posted by: @shiva
Posted by: @terroir

Time to move Beyond the forms, which limit.

It is noted that your formed "forms" have been limited. Your 15 minutes of self-proclaimed fame have been rendered, um, unformable, no more.

 

Remember what I was saying about people in chaos magick groups?  This is what I was talking about.


   
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Shiva
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Posted by: @katrice

This is what I was talking about.

How exciting. A live demonstration.


   
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christibrany
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@shiva 

I was lurking for a while. Then I stopped even lurking for a few weeks. 

Here I am.

Are we saying Chaos Mages are all crazy?

Since like, uh, like, uh Abbadon, uh Choronzon, uh Saturn, uh Chaotic 'things' create mental Chaos?


   
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Shiva
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Posted by: @christibrany

Are we saying Chaos Mages are all crazy?

Who is "we," kimo-sabe?

Um, yes, the answer to your inquiry is, from my point of view, "mostly."

 


   
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katrice
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@christibrany

Posted by: @christibrany

Are we saying Chaos Mages are all crazy?

I have no issues with chaos magick itself, and the good ones can be brilliant, but a lot of the online groups have a disproportionate number of people who act like our recently arrived and departed Mr Suze. 


   
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