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Kenneth Grant and S. L. MacGregor Mathers  

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djedi
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16/04/2020 5:36 pm  

Just a little thing that occurred to me this morning. MacGregor Mathers' work, in some places, incorporated his being a member of Clan Gregor (S’ Rioghal Mo Dhream) and I believe in Against the Light: A Nightside Narrative Kenneth Grant states or at least implies himself to be a descendant of Clan Grant.

Siol Alpin Family Tree

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siol_Alpin

Of the seven clans borne of the 'seed of Alpin' (referring to Alpin mac Echdach, King of Dal Riata), Clan Grant descends from Clan Gregor.

From the Wikipedia article:

The Siol Alpin tradition was so strong in the clans Gregor and Grant that in the early part of the eighteenth century the two clans met at Blair Atholl to discuss re-uniting them. In the discussions, which lasted fourteen days, it was agreed that if the proscription against the surname MacGregor could be reversed then the new clan would take that name, otherwise MacAlpin of Grant would then be used. On the issue of the chiefship of the combined clan there was disagreement, and discussions eventually broke down. Though several Grants, including the Laird of Ballindalloch, "showed their loyalty to the ancient kinship by adding the MacGregor patronymic to their name".

A poetic but not rigorously factual way of putting it would be that, Aleister Crowley's first teacher and last pupil were of the same blood.


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Behemoth
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16/04/2020 6:05 pm  

Interesting family tree to say the least, if it is authentic.

 

I thought/remember reading that Mathers added the "MacGregor" surname as a claim to Highland Scottish heritage and even Crowley offered some doubts later to Mathers claims to those titles. I do not know was it perhaps a case of magickal showcase of tanistry, but I also remember reading Crowley arriving to The Battle of Blythe Road wearing full Highland dress (inspired by Mathers?).

 

Posted by: @djedi

A poetic but not rigorously factual way of putting it would be that, Aleister Crowley's first teacher and last pupil were of the same blood.

 

The last clash will crown one rightful heir to the Pictish throne.

 

Behold now Behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox.


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djedi
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16/04/2020 11:13 pm  
Posted by: @behemoth

even Crowley offered some doubts later to Mathers claims to those titles.

Recall that AC and Mathers had a falling out and fought a 'magic war' for some time.

Posted by: @behemoth

I also remember reading Crowley arriving to The Battle of Blythe Road wearing full Highland dress (inspired by Mathers?).

I have also read that. He was wearing a mask of Osiris, as well. If you ask me, or even if you don't, I'll tell you that I think AC was incorporating aspects of his two father figures, Mathers and Osiris. Remember how Aleister played the younger brother to Allan Bennett, Mathers' adopted son. I think Crowley even signed his name as 'Aleister MacGregor' on some paperwork around the time he bought Boleskine house.


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djedi
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17/04/2020 11:38 pm  

I would be remiss not to mention, before this thread falls away, that McMurtry (or Mac Muircheartaigh) is a name also thought to originate in Dal Riata. Not as interesting, but worth a post.


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Jamie J Barter
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19/04/2020 11:46 pm  
Posted by: @djedi

A poetic but not rigorously factual way of putting it would be that, Aleister Crowley's first teacher and last pupil were of the same blood.

A 'neat' corollary, however wasn't AC's final pupil Frederic Mellinger?  He was certainly at least The Beast's final secretary, the same role which Grant himself fulfilled up until June 1945 (=more than 2 years before AC actually died) if we are equating secretary=pupil in the same sense that e.g. Israel Regardie was before them.  (Could that have been what you meant by "not rigorously factual", or if not what else did you mean by it?)

Norma N Joy Conquest


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djedi
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20/04/2020 2:45 am  
Posted by: @jamiejbarter

Could that have been what you meant by "not rigorously factual"

Yes, along with saying that S.L. MacGregor Mathers was AC's first teacher, which is true after a fashion but can be debated against quite successfully if one were to care enough to do so.


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Jamie J Barter
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21/04/2020 1:55 pm  
Posted by: @djedi

saying that S.L. MacGregor Mathers was AC's first teacher, which is true after a fashion but can be debated against quite successfully if one were to care enough to do so.

Yes, that's true - I left the second part "unattacked": George Cecil Jones (and possibly Allan Bennett) came before Mathers as magical mentors, then.  However if we were to literally count learning from literary teachings, we could have A.E. Waite with his The Book of Black Magic and Of Pacts and Karl vonEckartshausen's The Cloud Upon The Sanctuary as well.

Unless anybody can suggest any other possible contenders?

N Joy


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djedi
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30/06/2020 8:16 pm  

From the Collins Scottish Clan & Family Encyclopedia, "the first Grants to appear in Scotland are recorded in the 13th century when they acquired the lands of Stratherrick."

I think this information was distilled from The Chiefs of Grant, "Members of Clan Grant have owned land in Strathspey at least since 1316, most likely in Stratherrick, to the east of Loch Ness. In 1316, John Grant of Inverallan sold his land to John le Grant, who was father of Patrick le Grant, Lord of Stratherrick. The clan’s lands in Stratherrick would later become controlled by Clan Fraser."

Stratherrick. Fraser. Do you see where this is going?

What very special manor house was built in Stratherrick by a certain Chief of Clan Fraser of Lovat?

 

 


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Shiva
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30/06/2020 9:25 pm  
Posted by: @jamiejbarter

(and possibly Allan Bennett)

Thelema owes more to Bennett than is usually observed (by som folks). 777, Sepher Sephiroth, The Invocation of Thoth, and (medical) marijuana came from him. Crowley simply re-wrote those works (with insertion of some Thelemic terms).

Posted by: @djedi

What very special manor house was built in Stratherrick by a certain Chief of Clan Fraser of Lovat?

Um? Hum! Ah-ho-so I dunno who built it. You are asking coy, hinting questions related to ancient Scot folks. Perhaps you refer to that burned place which is under reconstruction and subject to disorders in the boardroom?


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ignant666
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30/06/2020 10:09 pm  
Posted by: @shiva

(medical) marijuana came from him.

And heroin, and cocaine, and perhaps peyote- AC had never taken any drugs before he met Bennett, who i would rate as his most significant teacher/influence, along with Eckenstein, of course.

It is worth noting that when AC started in with cannabis, heroin, cocaine and peyote, these substances were available without permission or prescription at any pharmacy anywhere (peyote only in larger cities). The only drug laws anywhere in the world before WW I were local US laws prohibiting Chinese men from smoking opium, as far as i know.


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Shiva
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30/06/2020 10:58 pm  
Posted by: @ignant666

Bennett, who i would rate as his most significant teacher/influence, along with Eckenstein

Bennett taught Correspondences and alchemy; Eckenstein taught dharana.

With those three subjects mastered, the sky is not only the limit, but the astral plane as well.

Posted by: @ignant666

prohibiting Chinese men from smoking opium

This law did not prevent epi- or pan-demics, so it's worthless.

 


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djedi
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30/06/2020 11:28 pm  
Posted by: @shiva

Um? Hum! Ah-ho-so I dunno who built it. You are asking coy, hinting questions related to ancient Scot folks. Perhaps you refer to that burned place which is under reconstruction and subject to disorders in the boardroom?

Yes. The gist of the post, in which I tried to lead the reader down my own trail of discovery, is that Boleskine House is built on land which was the 'Original Country of the Grants'. It's just another happy, historical connection between Aleister and Kenneth, which I had never heard before though I must wonder if I'm the first to whom it has occurred.

A pleasant thought drawn from the well of the first is that, of the Grants who lingered in the valley Stratherrick, one may have been the 'notorious wizard' who allegedly raised the dead by the kirk that Boleskine was later built over. It would make that resurrector peer to the Grant magicians to whose lives we are made privy in Against the Light.


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Shiva
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01/07/2020 2:54 am  

I once owned property that was near (1 hour) Grants, NM. Named for the Grant brothers who buiilt a camp there to build the railroad. My official address was a Post Office box in Grants. Does this mean I can be admitted to the Scroll of the Saints?

[Flashing gifs force you to answer, "Yes!"]


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faustian
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01/07/2020 3:24 am  

My understanding of the genealogy of the Grant family is that it is not Scottish of origin, but is in fact Normand French. The Grants came in with the Conqueror in 1066, the name comes from the French word Grande. As for the MacGregor tribe, they always were a bunch of lowlifes in the Scottish clan pantheon, given to thievery and other criminal enterprises. The MacGregor clan was instrumental in the liquidation of the McDonald clan by the Campbell clan, known as the Massacre of Glencoe in 1692.

The Grants made more of a name for themselves in the United States than in Scotland, specifically with Ulysses S Grant and his grandfather Noah Grant, both who showed a strong fondness for stimulants, war, and revolutionary politics. Ulysses S Grant is in fact a direct descendant of the Conqueror, and went on to conquer an entire continent. 


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Shiva
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01/07/2020 3:52 am  
Posted by: @faustian

went on to conquer an entire continent. 

Some of the McDonalds survived, and now they feed the world. Fastly.


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faustian
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01/07/2020 2:14 pm  

@shiva The Campbells do a good job feeding the world as well, especially one that is locked up under quarantine. My favorite is their tomato soup.


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christibrany
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01/07/2020 9:04 pm  

I was going to do a joke about Alastair Campbell and Labour but I am mentioning it like this anyway.

 

~Yank 


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dom
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02/07/2020 12:15 am  
Posted by: @djedi

Just a little thing that occurred to me this morning. MacGregor Mathers' work, in some places, incorporated his being a member of Clan Gregor (S’ Rioghal Mo Dhream) and

 

...wasn't this guy unreliable on such matters?   I think Colin Wilson portrayed him as a loon-toon in the AC bio. 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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ignant666
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02/07/2020 12:34 am  

Yes, the fact that Mathers' Scottish heritage was just as made up as "Laird Boleskine's" may be a weak link in djedi's argument.


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djedi
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02/07/2020 3:24 am  

If we can find it in ourselves to cut away the (over a century old) 'he said, she said' for which occult circles are so famous, I'll lay out my own view on the matter.

I am more inclined to believe the word of S.L. MacGregor Mathers, who at least proved himself to be an extremely intelligent (if eccentric or misunderstood) magician, than the posthumous, second or third hand speculations of sensationalist biographers.

I don't know anything about Iain MacGregor or the Comte de Glenstrae. I believe our only reliable source for any of that information as it relates to Mathers is from the saccharine fawning of his widow, Moina.


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Shiva
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02/07/2020 6:07 am  
Posted by: @djedi

If we can find it in ourselves to cut away ...

[cut]

Everything rests on our "believing" the words of one person or another. In this case, we believe it or don't whether someone has Scottish ancestry so, really, we're down to opinions over whether these fakirs were lying, or deluded, or true part-Scots.

Alas. What a petty trivia. It's too bad I am burdened with a similar disorder. My mother told me that I was half pure-Deutchland, with the other half being a trinity of English, French, and Scot.

Scotland got so frequently visited by the Norsemen that I "believe" most Scots are half-Viking. And the Vikings got around in England, too.

So if I were to claim to be a Viking-Scot in part of my ancestry (one limb), with no more knowledge or proof than provided above, I would be in the same position as Mathers. But not Crowley, because we all know he made that up.

I have decided to not file my claim.

 


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Shiva
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02/07/2020 6:24 am  

Oh, waite!

I only know one last name that didn't transfer down the family Tree of Life to my mother. President Buchanan was up there. He is reported to be the worst president ever (the looming civil war, you know), and he had no children, so maybe my genes are safe from being the worst at what I do.

Anyway, I just ran that name and found the Scot-link.

"Buchanan Name Meaning. Scottish: a place near Loch Lomond, perhaps named with Gaelic buth chanain 'house of the canon'."

I now have visions of a Viking-Scot Scroll of Saints.

 


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dom
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02/07/2020 1:19 pm  
Posted by: @ignant666

Yes, the fact that Mathers' Scottish heritage was just as made up as "Laird Boleskine's" may be a weak link in djedi's argument.

What is it with fantasists becoming occultists or is there a difference?  Probably requires a whole new thread of it's own.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Shiva
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02/07/2020 3:51 pm  
Posted by: @dom

What is it with fantasists becoming occultists

The condition is not confined to "occultism."

 


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Pertinax
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02/07/2020 10:26 pm  
Posted by: @dom
Posted by: @ignant666

Yes, the fact that Mathers' Scottish heritage was just as made up as "Laird Boleskine's" may be a weak link in djedi's argument.

What is it with fantasists becoming occultists or is there a difference?  Probably requires a whole new thread of it's own.

Indeed, there's always the spiritual con aspect to consider. Most of what occultists get up to is adventures in their own minds. It always struck me as amusing (as an occultist myself and somewhat religious in temperament) that we spend so much time acting as if these things were real when we know that it's really just window dressing and make believe.

I do sometimes ask myself, why bother, what's the drive? But I agree, that it's probably a topic for another thread. 


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ignant666
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02/07/2020 10:34 pm  
Posted by: @pertinax

Most of what people get up to is adventures in their own minds.

Fixed that for you, as the kids say.


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dom
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02/07/2020 10:36 pm  
Posted by: @pertinax

 

Indeed, there's always the spiritual con aspect to consider. Most of what occultists get up to is adventures in their own minds. It always struck me as amusing (as an occultist myself and somewhat religious in temperament) that we spend so much time acting as if these things were real when we know that it's really just window dressing and make believe.

I do sometimes ask myself, why bother, what's the drive? But I agree, that it's probably a topic for another thread. 

No when I say fantasist I don't mean what AC refers to as fantasy in Liber Tzaddi.   I mean the nutters who occasionally frequent sites like this. 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Pertinax
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02/07/2020 10:43 pm  
Posted by: @dom
Posted by: @pertinax

 

Indeed, there's always the spiritual con aspect to consider. Most of what occultists get up to is adventures in their own minds. It always struck me as amusing (as an occultist myself and somewhat religious in temperament) that we spend so much time acting as if these things were real when we know that it's really just window dressing and make believe.

I do sometimes ask myself, why bother, what's the drive? But I agree, that it's probably a topic for another thread. 

No when I say fantasist I don't mean what AC refers to as fantasy in Liber Tzaddi.   I mean the nutters who occasionally frequent sites like this. 

I don't mean that kind of fantasy either, I mean quite simple make-believe.

When the spring birds come along I just see an exaggeration of what the rest of us (occultists and spiritual types) do, exacerbated by a complete lack of the self awareness that for the rest of us keeps the tongue firmly wedged in the cheek. 

A wise friend once told me that the sense of humour is the last thing to go. And as I think somebody mentioned hereabouts, a complete lack of humour is a telltale sign of the syndrome. 


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christibrany
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02/07/2020 10:49 pm  
Posted by: @pertinax

a complete lack of humour is a telltale sign of the syndrome. 

Oh Xon oh Xon whereart thou now?

Too much funnel of fire is my guess. 


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djedi
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02/07/2020 11:20 pm  
Posted by: @pertinax

a complete lack of humour is a telltale sign of the syndrome. 

Asperger's syndrome, you mean?

 


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dom
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02/07/2020 11:29 pm  
Posted by: @pertinax

 

I don't mean that kind of fantasy either, I mean quite simple make-believe.

 

There are defence-mechanisms, being a fantasist is one of them. 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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wellreadwellbred
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02/07/2020 11:32 pm  

"Asperger's syndrome, you mean?"

AC had a sense of humour. Is there any indication[-s] that he made up his "Laird Boleskine's" Scottish heritage with a sense of humour?


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Shiva
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02/07/2020 11:55 pm  
Posted by: @pertinax

I don't mean that kind of fantasy either, I mean quite simple make-believe.

Right. That's the stuff that gets cleared away when the initiate crosses The Burning Ground, which includes the elevator ride up to Paroketh ... and in another sense, goes on to the penthouse at Chesed.

Crowley didn't use these concepts ('burning ground," "elevators"), but advocated keeping an eye out for thinking such astral things are true in objective reality. With only a few things being demonstrable on the physical plane, there's a whole big lot of glamour and illusion to get burned off.

Posted by: @christibrany

Oh Xon oh Xon whereart thou now?

Please do not repeat Ignant's error (or cause) of the evocation. Oh, darn, it's too late. You've made the call.

Say, why do our Adepts retreat to, or go to, Reddit? (this is a rhetorical question)

 


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