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 Anonymous
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"I can see both sides of this matter, but on balance I agree with Crowley that the fact that the Word had been given several years before did not preclude it becoming his Word as Magus."

Well - I think if someone if foreordained to be a Magus, then the word is sent to themselves backwards in time so that they can 'grow into it' so to speak. Jim Eshelman recently wrote that "Thelema is the word of the Law. Abrahadabra is the word of the Aeon." Whether of Law or Aeon though - these words were both undoubtly his! 😀


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 Anonymous
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"alrah" wrote:
I laughed out loud when on page 35 he talks about the 'supposidely fictional Necronomicon' (as if there was a huge conspiracy to keep the real book secret) 😀 😀 :D. It a book to leave next to Von Danikens works on the bookshelf.

Alrah, you must be familiar with 'An Interlude' from Part 2 of Crowley's Book Four, which begins:

"Every nursery rime contains profound magical secrets which are open to every one who has made a study of the correspondences of the Holy Qabalah. To puzzle out an imaginary meaning for this "nonsense" sets one thinking of the Mysteries; one enters into deep contemplation of holy things and God Himself leads the soul to a real illumination. Hence also the necessity of Incarnation; the soul must descend into all falsity in order to attain All-Truth."

At the end of this 'un-chapter,' which you should read if you haven't, the following note is also included in my 1994 edition of the blue brick:

"{This discourse has been thus left unfinished, but it is only necessary to add that the capacity to extract such spiritual honey from these unpromising flowers is the mark of an adept who has perfected his Magick Cup. This method of Qabalistic exegesis is one of the best ways of exalting the reason to the higher consciousness. Evidently it "started" Fra P. so that in a moment he became completely concentrated and entranced. -Ed.}"


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 Anonymous
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Alrah, you sound like a girl (apologies if you're not) however, you're really quite close to at least an aspect of it by mentioning 'motif'. One step further would be to try and think about what a 'motif' really is and why it possesses its significance within, say, a fictional narrative (you'd actually find Jung helpful on this one given the area in which we're discussing it). Then, try and think of this in terms of a ritual context, or what a ritual actually is (e.g. why do folks do them?). However, you must abandon your erroneous view that ritual is some kind of pseudo-scientific means of paranormal investigation, or something like that.

I don't know what all this abracadabra and New Aeon is all about, since most know Abracadabra is a restaurant on Jermyn St, nearly below where AC used to live. I dined there just this evening and certainly didn't notice any mention, any theme or motif to do with some forthcoming Aeon of a higher age. It was all rather a horrible experience actually...


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 Anonymous
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"alrah" wrote:
I'm pretty sure that the fictional monsters invented by Mr Lovecraft, while being entertaining to read about and imagine, cannot alter the arrangement of ones mind.

It's a good thing you said "pretty sure", Alrah, because you got it wrong 😉 There is such a thing as a useful fiction which can serve very effective purposes.


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 Anonymous
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"MichaelStaley" wrote:
"alrah" wrote:
I mean - if I wrote a bunch of rituals to invoke the Vampires out of Ann Rice novels or the Orcs and trolls out of 'The Lord of the Rings', or gave you a bunch of instructions on how to contruct your own Plantir to put you in touch with the Dark Lord... I mean - would you be on board with that?

This does not mean that I am equating Cthulhu with the kundalini, but merely drawing on a suggestive analogy in the context of the ritual for the puposes of that ritual.

Michael.

If I'm not mistaken, this is also what Grant does with fiction as well, as a means to draw useful and suggestive analogies and as inspiration.
I would suggest anybody that is confused about this method of Grant's, which is a very Shamanic type use of story telling, read his article from the Carfax Monographs titled "Hidden Lore."
One could also point out that all the worlds different religious concepts and mythlogies are as well suggestive and useful analogies.


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kidneyhawk
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AEternitas-

You mention that

very Shamanic type use of story telling

which is wonderful!!

I am immediately reminded of Northrop Frye's words on Blake from his classic Fearful Symmetry. Frye understands Blake's mysticism to be in service to "a lost art of reading poetry."

He writes (and I believe these words very much apply to Grant's OTCOT):

"Even if there is a hidden meaning, a poem which contains no more than what an explanation of that meaning can translate should have been written in the form of the explanation in the first place."

This is something Grant clearly understands, both as a thinker and creator. He emphasizes the limits, use and development of language as crucial to its role in conveying that which exceeds the bounds of the wholly rational "explanation." And then he works it himself.

Again, Frye, speaking of Blake, writes:

"To Blake, the spiritual world was a continuous source of energy; he harnessed spiritual power as an engineer harnesses water power and used it to drive his inspiration: He was a spiritual utilitarian. He had the complete pragmatism of the artist, who, as artist, believes nothing but is looking only for what he can use."

Now, Grant is not Blake but these passages are very helpful in entering the "world" of OTCOT. Both word and number serve this purpose in Grant's writing. We might view his "creative gematria" (as he, himself, calls it) as a type of "mathematical poetry," the evocation of forms which may become vehicles for the "Incoming Current."

The first quote from Frye in this post stands, I believe, as a singular refutation of the "review" which this thread was established to discuss. By trying to cram the whole of this visionary book into an understanding based on "explanation," its potential, power and poetry is wholly missed-along with its Shamanic nature. What is left is akin to those who regarded Blake as a "madman" and his poetry as incomprehensible gibberish.

"May God us keep from Single-Vision and Newton's Sleep."

Cheers,

Kyle


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 Anonymous
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Camlion: "Alrah, you must be familiar with 'An Interlude' from Part 2 of Crowley's Book Four, which begins:"

"Every nursery rime contains profound magical secrets which are open to every one who has made a study of the correspondences of the Holy Qabalah. To puzzle out an imaginary meaning for this "nonsense" sets one thinking of the Mysteries; one enters into deep contemplation of holy things and God Himself leads the soul to a real illumination. Hence also the necessity of Incarnation; the soul must descend into all falsity in order to attain All-Truth."

Lovecraft never wrote Nursery Rhymes Camlion. Neither did Grant. You obviously feel that because Crowley made reference to a 'mere' nursery rhyme then the entire body of literary fiction must therefore also be susceptible, but nothing could be father from the truth. That's akin to saying that because a Zen Koan is possessed of certain qualities then everything Japanese must be possessed of those qualities also. I believe Crowley made reference to Nursery Rhymes quite specifically Camlion. They put the mind into the attitiude of childhood niavity that is useful. The neurotic and morbid excitment and loathing of the mind that Lovecraft seeks to evoke bears absolutely no relation to that evoked by Childhood Wisdom Tales and Rhymes.

Let's compare just two to make this plain. Here's a favourite of Crowleys:

Goosey goosey gander,
Whither shall I wander?
Upstairs and downstairs
And in my lady's chamber.
There I met an old man
Who wouldn't say his prayers,
So I took him by his left leg
And threw him down the stairs

There's amusement produced by the sound of the words 'goosey goosey' which put's one in a childish frame of mind that suspends the judgement. Then there is the mystical import more readily recieved through it - why the left leg? What is the meaning of the stairs? Why wouldn't he 'say his prayers'? All innocently asked, with the answers arriving readily to the soul.

And here's something from 'The Call of Cthulu':

They worshipped, so they said, the Great Old Ones who lived ages before there were any men, and who came to the young world out of the sky. Those Old Ones were gone now, inside the earth and under the sea; but their dead bodies had told their secrets in dreams to the first men, who formed a cult which had never died...hidden in distant wastes and dark places all over the world until the time when the great priest Cthulhu, from his dark house in the mighty city of R'lyeh under the waters, should rise and bring the earth again beneath his sway. Some day he would call, when the stars were ready, and the secret cult would always be waiting to liberate him.

Well - It speaks for itself I think!

It seems from the replies on this thread it is unanimous then... Michael, Camlion, Kyle, Aeternias, Tai, and the Spurious Simon - you really would have no objections to incorporating fictional characters such as those in 'The Lord of the Rings' into ritual, and infact you not only support the practice you excuse it - even when the material used is designed to excite a neurotic *addiction* to a morbid state of mind quite useless to the 99.9% of Great Work.

Morphine and Opium have quite the same effects, especially upon withdrawl, and drinking to alcholoic excess can excite one to delerium, so I suggest you all rush out and pursue this avenue at once! lol.

My nursery rhyme ode to you poor Typhonians...;-)

There was a one legged man who begged,
for gold upon the street,
he stood on foot and wooden leg,
begging daily for his meat,
then one bright day,
Stumpy saw,
a golden crown roll by,
and forgeting his deception,
this two legged man proved spry.


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ianrons
(@ianrons)
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OK, I think it's time for one last stab at this, this time with a nice Burgundy and a Monte Cristo, so possibly I shall be nice this time.

Firstly, just to get some of the accusations out of the way, I'm happy to accept zardoz's very decent apology for the things he said earlier. Just to repeat: I am not attempting to "smear" Grant, nor have I been dishonest in any of my criticisms of him. Partly I began this thread to find out if my review did, genuinely, represent Grant. Nothing has come up yet to convince me of any inaccuracy, although there are some related protests which I shall attempt to deal with (without, I hope, being too "literal") later.

Secondly, I would like to point out that my review is not, as some of you have called it, a "parody". A parody would be an imitation of a passage from Grant done in such a way as to make him look ridiculous, whereas my review simply discusses his stated views with some jokes thrown in. The two are not equivalent.

OK, some people have asked me to talk about the subject from a personal, experiential perspective. One person in particular questioned whether I have such experience to share. I can only say that I do have such experience and that I'm putting that experience into my criticism. In writing this post I was quite tempted to include an extremely indiscreet anecdote about a particular Typhonian practitioner, but I couldn't do so without compromising one of the other people involved, who was very nice about this website, so I shall leave it. Suffice to say that it's pretty apparent to people who deal with non-fictional entities that a kind of "vortex" is produced around a Typhonian (or similar LHP) practitioner by their workings, and that this is occasionally apparent, particularly when they're in an excited state (anger, passion, etc.).

The effect, which as I've implied is quite visible on the "astral" (a term that can mean a lot of things), is that phenomena around the person tend to mirror the practitioner to confirm whatever state of mind they currently believe. That is, synchronicities (and suchlike) are created by them so as to amplify the emotional state of the practitioner. The anecdote I referred to earlier was particularly interesting because as soon as the practitioner left the building, reality re-asserted itself with considerable violence, and the words "fraud, fraud, fraud, fraud, fraud" were the immediate consequence, and everyone started talking about the question which had been on everyone's mind that evening, but in quite different terms than had previously been the case.

Before the aforementioned practitioner left the building, it was quite apparent that he was "arranging" events (synchronicities – you know what I mean) in the room to suit his belief that he was completely in the right concerning a certain event in which he felt himself the injured party. I could actually see things "happen" around him that, it was clear from his reactions, were being taken as signals by him. However, once he left, everyone relaxed.

Anyway, apologies for being so vague, but what I am trying to get across is that the use of "fictional" entities in invocation, worship, or something-else-that-exculpates-Grant-from-accusations-of-Cthulhu-worship, seem to produce (as I have also seen in Goetic practitioners) a kind of "bubble reality" which actually prevents its practitioners from enjoying the delights of the world and its inhabitants. Certainly, those practitioners seem to have difficulty in manifesting on the astral in a completely full-on manner; it seems they create another little world for themselves, and their contacts with the outside world diminish over time. A valid analogy would be to a soldier who forsook his weapons and his regiment for Warhammer 40K. He would learn a great deal about tactics from playing such games against his friends, but he's no longer a soldier, and anything he learns is entirely useless because he only has plastic (or lead) toys. Magick is so incredibly powerful that it always disappoints me to see people turn in on themselves rather than project that power outwards; but it does seem to be the universe's way of protecting itself from fools.

That aside, with regard to Cthulhu and the question of "worship", can I ask you guys how you define the term "worship"? As moyal pointed out, Grant does mention some "invocations" of the "Forgotten Ones"; and I have noted some other uses that imply practitioners take a view of Cthulhu implying worship; but if "invocation" (or other forms of respect) do not imply "worship" then I think we must be using a very narrow definition of "worship". I did not use the word "worship" in the review, but this is (I suppose) relevant somehow.

By the way, I particularly enjoyed tai's point concerning my review: "These kind of objections apply only if you’re dealing with someone like yourself." Classic!

Finally, AEternitas asked me to provide the full quote re: Dee and Enochian from Grant. Here it is, from p.36, with a bit of context:

"Grant" wrote:
Madness was not only the fate of many spirit-mediums, magicians, and witches; artists too have been struck insensate, paralysed by the power of the current they unwittingly invoked. In some cases, therefore, we receive distorted impressions only of the original astral grimoires or archetypal manuals of practical magick. Such may be the case with Dr. Dee's attempts to establish subtle intercourse with the denizens of the Meon. These attempts proved abortive despite the elaborate Enochian system which he and Kelly bequeathed to humanity. What these magicians achieved, however, is a method of invoking and establishing contact with the sentinel of that Other Universe, the entity known as Choronzon.

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 Anonymous
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"alrah" wrote:
Morphine and Opium have quite the same effects, especially upon withdrawl, and drinking to alcholoic excess can excite one to delerium, so I suggest you all rush out and pursue this avenue at once! lol.

The effect of Lovecraft's macabre has nothing in common with the psychological side effects of opiate derivatives. Your not very clever and I would suggest quit playing at it.

These ideas you entertain about what is and isn't fiction are demonstrably false. All gods and goddesses are fictitious creations of the human mind. Their was never a God named Horus who walked the earth and had a falcon head attached to a human body. Consider how many Golden Dawn rituals drew on the first eleven chapters of Genesis. These prehistorical fables are nothing but elaborations on children's stories. They have a strong psychological effect, to those who are predisposed, because they originated in the psyche.

The map is not the territory, and all images are maps. They are symbols of reality, not reality itself. Even the idea that some are more true than others is a highly relative proposition.


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 Anonymous
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"ianrons" wrote:
Finally, AEternitas asked me to provide the full quote re: Dee and Enochian from Grant. Here it is, from p.36, with a bit of context:

"Grant" wrote:
Madness was not only the fate of many spirit-mediums, magicians, and witches; artists too have been struck insensate, paralysed by the power of the current they unwittingly invoked. In some cases, therefore, we receive distorted impressions only of the original astral grimoires or archetypal manuals of practical magick. Such may be the case with Dr. Dee's attempts to establish subtle intercourse with the denizens of the Meon. These attempts proved abortive despite the elaborate Enochian system which he and Kelly bequeathed to humanity. What these magicians achieved, however, is a method of invoking and establishing contact with the sentinel of that Other Universe, the entity known as Choronzon.

Ian, you must admit that what Grant actually said here is different from the way you represented it earlier. It is also, true, that with the elaborate Enochian system you can contact Choronzon as can be seen the The Vision and the Voice(though Victor contradicts Crowley on this particular account). Whether or not he is a denizen of the "Meon" (Ma-Ion?) is, of course, a whole other matter.


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ianrons
(@ianrons)
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"SSS" wrote:
These ideas you entertain about what is and isn't fiction are demonstrably false. All gods and goddesses are fictitious creations of the human mind. Their was never a God named Horus who walked the earth and had a falcon head attached to a human body. Consider how many Golden Dawn rituals drew on the first eleven chapters of Genesis. These prehistorical fables are nothing but elaborations on children's stories. They have a strong psychological effect, to those who are predisposed, because they originated in the psyche.

This is an argument for disposing of such notions, not for encouraging them. Or is it (as Patriarch156 noted in a similar context) "Tu Quoque"?


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ianrons
(@ianrons)
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"SSS" wrote:
Ian, you must admit that what Grant actually said here is different from the way you represented it earlier.

No, not at all. What you are seeking is for me to find a quote where Grant says exactly the same thing that I paraphrased, which is disingenuity itself.

What I actually said, in this thread (though not in the review) was:

"ianrons" wrote:
Grant describes the "Enochian system" as an effort on the part of Dee & Kelley "to [...] contact [...] the entity known as Choronzon"

What Grant talks about are "Dr. Dee's attempts to establish subtle intercourse with the denizens of the Meon", where the "Meon" is Bertiaux's Daath-like realm, which in the Western system is the abode of Choronzon. This at first demonstrates the general concept.

Grant goes on to say that "These attempts proved abortive despite the elaborate Enochian system which he and Kelly bequeathed to humanity. What these magicians achieved, however, is a method of invoking and establishing contact with the sentinel of that Other Universe, the entity known as Choronzon."

The "achievement" Grant talks about is the record they left (he has no other means of accessing their work) known as "Enochian". It is this which he describes as "a method of invoking [...] Choronzon".


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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"ianrons" wrote:
"SSS" wrote:
These ideas you entertain about what is and isn't fiction are demonstrably false. All gods and goddesses are fictitious creations of the human mind. Their was never a God named Horus who walked the earth and had a falcon head attached to a human body. Consider how many Golden Dawn rituals drew on the first eleven chapters of Genesis. These prehistorical fables are nothing but elaborations on children's stories. They have a strong psychological effect, to those who are predisposed, because they originated in the psyche.

This is an argument for disposing of such notions, not for encouraging them. Or is it (as Patriarch156 noted in a similar context) "Tu Quoque"?

I was not attempting an argumentum ad hominum: Tu Quoqu here.

Please, define precisely what you mean by "such notions".

What I was attempting is to demonstrate that fictional stories, fables, and characters have always been the subject of Dramatic Ritual. I am not saying, " Well you use Fictional Characters Too!". I guess I am asking and answering the question," What is Fiction?" Is it not someone's Child, and that strangely?


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ianrons
(@ianrons)
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The matter of fiction and non-fiction is an important one, and something which should be discussed; however, I just wrote a long post explaining my views on the subject, because some people asked me about my personal experience of the matter. You are now talking in very abstract terms and I would like to hear an answer to my previous post before replying to yours.


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 Anonymous
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"ianrons" wrote:
What you are seeking is for me to find a quote where Grant says exactly the same thing that I paraphrased, which is disingenuity itself.

That was not my motive. I really do not know why you would say that. Nor do I understand why you must attempt to insult me with the term "disingenuity"(sic)

Back to the topic, I can see your point now that you have defined Meon, which I mistakingly equated with the concept of Ma-ion, as is evidenced from my earlier post. I am not familiar with Micheal B.'s concepts except in the most peripheral manner.

If that is the case, than I suppose your criticism of Grant is valid if he is indeed saying that the purpose of Dee and Kelley's workings was to contact the denizens of the "Abyss". That is not what Dee said, nor the Enochian Angels.

However, it is true that with the Enochian system Crowley claimed to have evoked Choronzon. So the use of the system can apparently take one to Daath, if that is where someone thinks they should go.


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ianrons
(@ianrons)
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Thanks for that, SSS. I didn't intend to insult you: I was being defensive.

Re: Crowley, I think he made a big mistake in the working you describe, so I don't take him as authoritative vis-a-vis Enochian. Very much not, in fact.


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James
(@james)
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I think it is interesting to note that the Mahayana Buddhists were also accused of creative fictions when they produced the Mahayana Sutras (Lotus, Prajnaparamita etc.). The Hinayanists were aware that these were new sutras with apparently 'new' doctrines in them. The Mahayanists formulated a whole new doctrine called the Three Bodies of the Buddha, turning the Buddha from a human being into a Transcendent state with two function bodies, one being the human body the other being the enjoyment body that teaches continuously from Vulture Peak, shorthand for another state of consciousness. If someone attains to Vulture Peak then his gnosis is that of the Buddha who is teaching there for all time.

In essence the Mahayanists argued for the development of doctrine whilst the Hinayanists argued for sticking to the original message.

This argument would seem to have precedent!

Regards

Jamie

...] when I say magical I don't mean illusions, I mean magic in the sense of Crowley magick. I have been meeting and having very informative exchanges with practising magicians in this country and in America. I treat the occult very seriously, in fact more and more seriously, and have found great insight into what I do from these people.
-- Clive Barker

Taken from the random quote box on Lashtal


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 Anonymous
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Hello James,

funny you should mention this, but yes, 'Mahayana supernaturalism', 'Mahayana space-fiction', 'flamboyant Mahayanism' 'fantastic speculations', 'bizarre' and, 'rubbish'...

As for a possible reason behind Mahayanists' not caring about their cosmology being developed in more of a systematic or clever way for other folks, somebody suggested; "From the absolute standpoint the universe was completely non-existent – why, therefore, would one bother to classify the fictitious."

However, this nonsense has been part of a 2000 year old tradition, and the way Mahayana (rather than Therevada) now fuses with modern science is a fascinating subject-area.

But yes, this type of religious schism has repeated itself all over the shop and will probably continue to do so ad infinitum. However, perhaps we see some wisdom in Darwin's very own words in relation to Mahayana, where; "It is not the strongest of the species that survives, or the most intelligent, but the most responsive to change."

(even though I'd personally say they were more intelligent than their rivals)


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Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
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"the_spurious_simon_iff" wrote:
But yes, this type of religious schism has repeated itself all over the shop and will probably continue to do so ad infinitum. However, perhaps we see some wisdom in Darwin's very own words in relation to Mahayana, where; "It is not the strongest of the species that survives, or the most intelligent, but the most responsive to change."

I've never come across that quote by Darwin before, but it's food for thought. Thanks for posting it.

Best wishes,

Michael.


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 Anonymous
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There probably couldn't be a more Buddhistic statement...


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 Anonymous
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It is actually not a quote from Darwin, see:
`It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent, but rather the one most adaptable to change.`

The earliest known appearance of this basic statement is a paraphrase of Darwin in the writings of Leon C. Megginson, a management sociologist at Louisiana State University. Megginson's paraphrase (with slight variations) was later turned into a quotation. See the summary of Nicholas Matzke's findings in "One thing Darwin didn't say: the source for a misquotation" at the Darwin Correspondence Project. The statement is incorrectly attributed, without any source, to Clarence Darrow in Improving the Quality of Life for the Black Elderly: Challenges and Opportunities : Hearing before the Select Committee on Aging, House of Representatives, One Hundredth Congress, first session, September 25, 1987 (1988).
http://www.darwinproject.ac.uk/six-things-darwin-never-said

Best wishes,
David

"MichaelStaley" wrote:
"the_spurious_simon_iff" wrote:
But yes, this type of religious schism has repeated itself all over the shop and will probably continue to do so ad infinitum. However, perhaps we see some wisdom in Darwin's very own words in relation to Mahayana, where; "It is not the strongest of the species that survives, or the most intelligent, but the most responsive to change."

I've never come across that quote by Darwin before, but it's food for thought. Thanks for posting it.

Best wishes,

Michael.


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Michael Staley
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MANIO - it's all in the egg
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Thanks for the elucidation, David.

Best wishes,

Michael.


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 Anonymous
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It did strike me as being very odd for him, or just a random one-off as it were. Although despite its appropriated origin it sits well with what I put it next to.


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Tiger
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Outside the Circles of Time moves one outside petty cycles and expands consciousness beyond the ordinary bounds of space and time . Some believe they are living in whatever time it is, some believe we are living in the Aeon of Horus, others in an Aeon without a word, some still are seeking a word others are still living under the influence of the Aeon of Osiris; so it is believed. Grant takes us to the utmost spaces, like the Lord of Oceanus from a far off base where the calm lackadaisical playful ocean changes and transforms into a raging vertigo shaking the painstaking and plodding with a current that overleaps the dam of data and forces the judges of poetry that counted the words to swim.


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lashtal
(@lashtal)
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"Tiger" wrote:
Grant takes us to the utmost spaces, like the Lord of Oceanus from a far off base where the calm lackadaisical playful ocean changes and transforms into a raging vertigo shaking the painstaking and plodding with a current that overleaps the dam of data and forces the judges of poetry that counted the words to swim.

Er, quite.

Tell you what, fellow site members, I think this thread has exhausted itself, fascinating though the recent bits about what Darwin did or didn't say are.

I see that Mika has opened a new thread as a branch of this one, but focusing on the QBLH, which is pleasing.

It seems clear that we won't be seeing a detailed, factual response here to IanRons' review although I'd welcome one. Comments are enabled on the Review on this site and I'd ask that anyone with a point of view they'd like to share regarding its content records it there.

This has been a fascinating, though occasionally ill-tempered, thread but it had run its course a number of posts ago.

Thanks to all for participating. This thread is now Locked.

Owner and Editor
LAShTAL


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