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kidneyhawk
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Posted by: @katrice

 I'm simply curious about what he's been hinting at. I doubt watching him be an ass will be as enlightening.

Have you gotten in touch with him or read any of his books or pamphlets?


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katrice
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@kidneyhawk 

 

Shiva shared a link for Liber Bogus with me, but that's all I've read so far.  I have not been in touch with him. I may be curious, but I am also content to await his Grand Revelation. 


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kidneyhawk
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Posted by: @katrice

I am also content to await his Grand Revelation. 

The we'll do so together and enjoy the other conversations here at Lashtal! 🙂

 


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Shiva
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Posted by: @katrice

I begin to doubt the validity of their claim to that grade. 

We don't doubt him any more - we usually make funny of him - and that's both behind his back and to his face (when he faces)(sur-faces).

 

m


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Michael Staley
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Posted by: @kidneyhawk

But as I have previously remarked, Erwin DID show me something important. It was single sentence of his and a touche moment. I owe him for that.

I'd be very interested to hear from you what this "something important" was. Although I am an occultist and hence not in sympathy with the thrust of "Skeptical Thelema", I did look at the essays and suchlike that Erwin posted to his blog, and found some of them interesting.

 


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kidneyhawk
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Posted by: @michael-staley

I'd be very interested to hear from you what this "something important" was. Although I am an occultist and hence not in sympathy with the thrust of "Skeptical Thelema", I did look at the essays and suchlike that Erwin posted to his blog, and found some of them interesting.

Somewhere in these hallowed forums there is a back and forth between myself and Erwin in which he notes that I am attempting to argue against reason...using reason. If I were to demonstrate superiority of my view over his, I would only have done so by means of reason as my foil and fundament-which would then prove his view correct.

 

It was a point well-taken. If I win, I lose. If I lose, I lose. But that was all relative to a particular APPROACH.

 

AND...there ARE instances where it would seem that reason destroys itself, such as in Russell's paradox. We stick with precise logic here and watch it skip off the rails all on its own. Which begs the questions: what are the limits of reason and how does reason relate to the irrational, the imaginative, the non-dualistic etc.

 

When Erwin was around, a lot of Thelemites were quick to parrot “Reason is a lie...enough of Because” as if the authority of the supernaturally delivered Liber AL was enough to end the argument (“Aiwass said it, I believe it, that settles it”). But the issue is far more nuanced than that. Crowley's work is a testament to a mind deeply engaged with logic, science and skepticism. His presentation of Magick in MTP expresses this outlook.

 

But there is ANOTHER aspect of Crowley's outlook which belongs to the non-dual, the ecstatic and trans-rational. Aleister Crowley was an Occultist. He was deeply involved with a world that could be called “Supernatural.” Nor was his rationality and skepticism at odds with this (which is, again, shown in MTP).

 

I think various posters came running up against Erwin, overconfident with their very poor arguments against his attestations. For example, Erwin simply states, in his muckraking fashion, that Ghosts do not exist and people who think they do are fools. Someone takes offense and engages with him. Erwin challenges them to produce satisfactory proof and when they make appeal to their subjective experience, out spills the mockery. The sad rock hurled back is “Well, you can't prove that Ghosts DON'T exist-so piss off!”

 

Now there is plenty Erwin fails to account for. For example, we don't bring back proof of our dreaming with a polaroid-but we DO dream. This dreaming is a phenomena of the same mind which "reasons and compares." Further, we acknowledge the phenomena when others attest to it without any other proof but their word. Erwin and Los seemed bent on removing the metaphysics, magic and occult from Crowley's work in an attempt to outline their own version of a “purified” Thelema.

 

One of Crowley's great gifts was his ability to express his mystical insights. For the sharp points Erwin made, we don't see anything from his pen resembling (for example) The Book of Lies or Liber Aleph. I suspect that, were the identity of the author unknown, Erwin would likely have regarded the Book of Lies as gibberish, occult ramblings from a disordered brain. But here I feel I'm making of Erwin a straw rationalist when he isn't here to speak for himself-which is admittedly unfair. And Los WAS fond of James Joyce, if I remember correctly.

 

So yes-his point that I was using reason to parry against his point that reason is the only reliable means of determining Truth or Reality exposed something of an ironic self-contradiction in my own approach to the issue. But not entirely-as I try to indicate above. For there is a RELATIONSHIP between reason and the irrational just as there is a relationship between the Temporal and Eternal. In Erwin's world, it seems that the former wishes to expunge the latter, just as William Blake's Zoa of Reason (URIZEN) splits off from and attempts to establish dominion over the other Zoas (which are akin to the Jungian quadrants of the psyche). There is, of course, a reaction to this which may be, likewise, imbalanced.

 

Reason can be a very integral element of occult exploration (example would be CF Russell and the importance of Logic in the Choronzon Club) and it need not be at odds with the subjective, imaginative, intuitive and irrational. Rationality and Irrationality can and must have a relationship. It is evocative of tension (ala Blake's Marriage of Heaven and Hell) and this intensity powers the Magician's path of development, growth and insight.


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Shiva
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Posted by: @kidneyhawk

how does reason relate to the ... imaginative

Imaginitive merely associates with "image." Images can be rational, intuitive, etc - so it would depend on where the image came from (constructed in dharana, astral images, archetypal images, etc).

Posted by: @kidneyhawk

the non-dualistic

This is the core question. Reason is limited by the Abyss. Our mental body has a periphery to it (like the ionosphere). All thoughts [including getting out] that hit that periphery get reflected back. There are non-dual things happening out there, and the mind can go along for the ride, but only if it's in neutral (no agenda, no "what can I get out of this," no bias. This neutrality can be reached from time to time by even beginners. But to have it handy all the time, it's a matter of degree. See One Star in Sight: 8=3.

Posted by: @kidneyhawk

This dreaming is a phenomena of the same mind which "reasons and compares."

Yes and No. Yes, there is just this one mind we each have our own. But it contains different functions that are so different from each other that they seem to be different compartments. The compartments (colleges or orders) are defined in many ways - one way being brainwave frequencies - they correspond to the three grades of initiation.

Beta - daily, multitasking - lotsa thinking
Alpha - focused but relaxed (1st degree)
Theta - hynagogic imagery, dreams, visions
          (reason may be impaired)(2*)
Delta - Reason need not apply (3*)

Posted by: @kidneyhawk

Erwin would likely have regarded the Book of Lies as gibberish, occult ramblings from a disordered brain.

And he would have been correct. Perdurabo himself admits the same, right at the beginning of the book.

But I consider that book one of the most valuable. So where does that put me on the Erwin scale? (Choose from worm, e. coli, or grub).

 

 


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katrice
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Posted by: @shiva

This is the core question. Reason is limited by the Abyss. Our mental body has a periphery to it (like the ionosphere). All thoughts [including getting out] that hit that periphery get reflected back. There are non-dual things happening out there, and the mind can go along for the ride, but only if it's in neutral (no agenda, no "what can I get out of this," no bias. This neutrality can be reached from time to time by even beginners. But to have it handy all the time, it's a matter of degree. See One Star in Sight: 8=3.

The rational can only take us so far, and there are levels of consciousness above it, the transrational, and below it, the prerational. The idea that certain things cannot be encompassed and conveyed by language shows this.  The Pre/Trans Fallacy enters the picture when one level gets mistake for the other, the prerational mistaken for the trans, or the trans dismissed as the pre. I would guess that rationalist, so-called "skeptical" Thelemites fall in to the latter part of the fallacy. 

All that said, true skepticism is still, in my opinion, extremely valuable in magickal practice.

 

But I consider that book one of the most valuable. 

Up there with AL and the Vision and the Voice, for me. 

 


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Shiva
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Posted by: @katrice

The rational can only take us so far, and there are levels of consciousness above it

Right. And anyone who has transcended the rational mind, even for a short engagement, understands this concept. The anal-preventive folks who decry acausal, meaningfully coincidental, clairvoyant experiences are simply demonstrating the lack of any experiences above the 4th neurocircuit.

 


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Sanguine Chuck
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Has someone been being bad? i have noticed little guideline-violating recently.

Did someone ring? 😜 

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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katrice
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Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

Did someone ring? 😜 

I was wondering where you were!

We've had some interesting times here recently. 

 

Posted by: @shiva

The anal-preventive folks who decry acausal, meaningfully coincidental, clairvoyant experiences are simply demonstrating the lack of any experiences above the 4th neurocircuit.

 

I am reminded of a guy I encountered who claimed to be an A:.A:. "teacher" who claimed that the K&C was literally impossible for anyone after Crowley himself to attain.   

 

 

 


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Michael Staley
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Posted by: @katrice

I am reminded of a guy I encountered who claimed that the K&C was literally impossible for anyone after Crowley himself to attain.

Did he give any reason for making that claim?

 

 


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katrice
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Posted by: @michael-staley
Posted by: @katrice

I am reminded of a guy I encountered who claimed that the K&C was literally impossible for anyone after Crowley himself to attain.

Did he give any reason for making that claim?

 

 

He said that it was too early in the Aeon for that grade to be available to anyone beyond the Magus and that for now we must live in a "world without adepts".

 

Personally, I suspect it was more of a case of his mistaking personal frustration for universal truth.

This also implies that any A:.A:. lineage with him as part of the chain won't get that far. 

 

 


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kidneyhawk
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Posted by: @michael-staley

Did he give any reason for making that claim?

 

 

He said that it was too early in the Aeon for that grade to be available to anyone beyond the Magus and that for now we must live in a "world without adepts".

The irony here is that Crowley's whole religion of Thelema is based on the premise of people getting in touch with their True Will/Tiphareth/The Holy Guardian Angel. Were none able to do so (due to it being “too early in the Aeon”), then the Prophet's words would be grossly misdirected. No “genius at Will” to be found within the A.A. System-and therefore, no real point to the System at all.

 

Alas, AC recognized his own antecedents in sundry places, creative figures who had become one with-and thereby manifested-their Will. We would expect nothing less going forward.

 

Thelema was never about being a “belief system.” It was always about “certainty, not faith.” If one does not make strides toward the center of Will, then what can one say of this “Thelema?” In a “Start Phase” where Adepts are void, what is left for the aspirant? Adulation of what cannot be attained?

 

In contrast, Crowley was at pains to declare how the Law is for ALL. There may be more occult concerns beyond the ken of the “many” but the Law Itself was and is for Every Man, Woman and Child. If one would go for it, it's there, waiting. Joseph Campbell called it “Following Your Bliss.”

 

I would agree that our general World State doesn't seem to reflect all Stars marching harmoniously in orbit but I would be loathe to declare a “lack of Adepts.” They move about us daily.


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Pertinax
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Posted by: @katrice

This also implies that any A:.A:. lineage with him as part of the chain won't get that far. 

I'm dying to know which one he was from now, so I can avoid them.....

I am reminded of a paragraph in AC's The Temple of Solomon the King, about the wrong kind of sceptic. To paraphrase: "There is no sun! I, even I, the seeker after truth, cannot find it, therefore it doesn't exist!"

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


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katrice
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Posted by: @kidneyhawk

The irony here is that Crowley's whole religion of Thelema is based on the premise of people getting in touch with their True Will/Tiphareth/The Holy Guardian Angel. Were none able to do so (due to it being “too early in the Aeon”), then the Prophet's words would be grossly misdirected. No “genius at Will” to be found within the A.A. System-and therefore, no real point to the System at all. 

It does kind of subvert the whole concept of the word "Thelema" in a way.

Alas, AC recognized his own antecedents in sundry places, creative figures who had become one with-and thereby manifested-their Will. We would expect nothing less going forward.

I'd suppose antecedents were different because it was a different Aeon that was already established then. 

 

Thelema was never about being a “belief system.” It was always about “certainty, not faith.”  

 

The method of science, the aim of religion.

In a “Start Phase” where Adepts are void, what is left for the aspirant? Adulation of what cannot be attained?

That is a good question. I'd inferred something about preparing the way for the full manifestation of the Aeon was involved, but I admit I did reach the "Why am I still talking to this guy?" mark with him and just gave up eventually. He was very condescending and also seemed to have a love of teasing people with the "secrets" he knew. 

 

Joseph Campbell called it “Following Your Bliss.”

I like seeing that someone other than me has made that connection. 😊 

I would agree that our general World State doesn't seem to reflect all Stars marching harmoniously in orbit but I would be loathe to declare a “lack of Adepts.” They move about us daily.

They move about us daily and are not confined to only one organization, or even only one belief system, religion, philosophy, etc.

 

He also claimed that, whenever it was that the Supernal grades did become accessible, that each of those grades could only be held by one person in the world at a time, so, for example, there can only be one Magister Templi on Earth, and nobody else could attain that grade until that one either died or moved on to become, presumably, the only Magus on Earth. 

Posted by: @pertinax

I'm dying to know which one he was from now, so I can avoid them.....

I wish I'd thought to ask him, though I don't know if he'd have told me.  He did claim to have students.  I have to also wonder about whoever was above him.

I love your Melek Taus profile pic!

I am reminded of a paragraph in AC's The Temple of Solomon the King, about the wrong kind of sceptic. To paraphrase: "There is no sun! I, even I, the seeker after truth, cannot find it, therefore it doesn't exist!"

That is what it sounds like.

 

 


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Pertinax
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Posted by: @katrice

He also claimed that, whenever it was that the Supernal grades did become accessible, that each of those grades could only be held by one person in the world at a time, so, for example, there can only be one Magister Templi on Earth, and nobody else could attain that grade until that one either died or moved on to become, presumably, the only Magus on Earth.

This actually rings a bell. In any case we know it flies in the face of what AC taught, I'm pretty sure he recognised at least Germer and Achad as 8=3's, I think there were others but I can't recall. In any case this person is contradicting what AC said about his own order.

Posted by: @katrice

I wish I'd thought to ask him, though I don't know if he'd have told me.  He did claim to have students.  I have to also wonder about whoever was above him.

So self professed blind leading the blind, I honestly don't see the point. 

I wonder if this person confuses the idea of there being only one 'officer' (i.e. cancellarius, imperator, preamonstrator, which correspond to but historically don't require the holder to bear the connected grades), with the grades themselves, which is an argument I've heard of the 'there can be only one' type. If so then I can imagine which lineage it is, but I'm verging on speculation at this point.

Posted by: @katrice

I love your Melek Taus profile pic!

Thanks. A hangover from my past, I always quite liked the peacock angel.


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Shiva
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Posted by: @katrice

He said that it was too early in the Aeon for that grade to be available to anyone beyond the Magus and that for now we must live in a "world without adepts".

It's funny how guys like Abraham the Jew,, and his mentor Abramelin, were able to pull it off a long time before this Aeon began.

Posted by: @katrice

Personally, I suspect it was more of a case of his mistaking personal frustration for universal truth.

Now this seems to be a universal truth, and a source of error. Freud stated that the core of everyone's problem was the Oedipus/Electra complex. The Jung came along, noted that Freud was afflicted by the Oedipus complex, but that there are many other archetypes - of which Oedipus is but one.

Posted by: @pertinax

even I, the seeker after truth, cannot find it, therefore it doesn't exist!"

Exactly!  I never crossed swords or sticks with Erwin, but your analogy reminds me of Los's stance on several separate points.


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katrice
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Posted by: @pertinax

 In any case this person is contradicting what AC said about his own order.

Besides being condescending in general, he also said I was "not a Thelemite".  Funny, then, how I knew things about Thelema and the A:.A:. that he clearly did not. 

 

So self professed blind leading the blind, I honestly don't see the point. 

Possible. I know nothing about whoever was above him.   

I wonder if this person confuses the idea of there being only one 'officer'  

I recall the example he used to back this claim up with Crowley referring to those offices in the singular. The Master of the Temple. The Magus. The Ipissimus.    🙄 

 

I have to wonder how much of Crowley he'd actually read.

Thanks. A hangover from my past, I always quite liked the peacock angel.

I do find the Yezidi fascinating. 

 

Posted by: @shiva

It's funny how guys like Abraham the Jew,, and his mentor Abramelin, were able to pull it off a long time before this Aeon began.

I believe that the idea there was that their Aeon had progressed far enough to allow it to happen under those circumstances, but now, of course "the rituals of the old time are black". 

 

I suspect he may have been extremely dogmatic and literalist in a previous belief system and transferred that attitude to his interpretation of  Thelema.

Now this seems to be a universal truth, and a source of error. Freud stated that the core of everyone's problem was the Oedipus/Electra complex. The Jung came along, noted that Freud was afflicted by the Oedipus complex, but that there are many other archetypes - of which Oedipus is but one.

It is crucial to be able to look beyond one's own experience, and realize that it does not define all reality. 


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Shiva
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Posted by: @katrice

he also said I was "not a Thelemite". 

Oh, Lordy, Lordie. We won't even need to bother about convening The Grand Tribunal about this one. I wonder what his Judgement (specifically and in general) is based on?

 


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katrice
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@shiva

Posted by: @shiva

Oh, Lordy, Lordie. We won't even need to bother about convening The Grand Tribunal about this one. I wonder what his Judgement (specifically and in general) is based on?

 

He did have a tendency to start some sentences with "In Thelema, we...", talking to me as though he believed I knew absolutely nothing about the topic. Maybe because I believed such crazy things as the K&C being possible, that there can be more than one person per supernal grade at a time, and similar radical ideas.


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Pertinax
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Posted by: @katrice

Possible. I know nothing about whoever was above him.

If somebody asserts that nobody can achieve knowledge and conversation, presumably either they include their teacher, unless that person is 'The One (C)' who has attained for this Aeon. In any case the implicit assertion is that if you join that particular group you will never be promoted to 5=6, so there's no point.

Posted by: @katrice

I do find the Yezidi fascinating.

I went through a phase where it was relevant, the Peacock Angel as 'Rex Mundi', a sort of avatar of samsara I suppose, if you'll pardon the mixing of traditions.

Posted by: @katrice

I suspect he may have been extremely dogmatic and literalist in a previous belief system and transferred that attitude to his interpretation of  Thelema.

I think we all carry our experiences with us to a greater or lesser extent. I can certainly see how my upbringing has shaped my preferences. There are quite a few escapees from various conservative Christian traditions within the Thelemic community, and I suspect that quite a few of them transfer their attitudes without realising it. It's really just changing the window dressing but stocking the same wares.

Posted by: @katrice

It is crucial to be able to look beyond one's own experience, and realize that it does not define all reality. 

Exactly. Different aspect get (in theory) dealt with at the various grades, physical situation at Malkuth, mind-body connection at Yesod, Mental framework at Hod, emotional household at Netzach. To me at least, its a gradual and iterative process of seeing through our various delusions.

Posted by: @katrice

he also said I was "not a Thelemite". 

Your in good company then, even if I do say so myself...

One thing I notice, and am guilty of it myself so it's best to self moderate, is the tendency to point at the other guy as think 'look at that crazy guy, what does he know?'.

What strikes me again and again is that all of these religious dogmas are really nothing, just mirages that we create, and largely unverifiable. Nonetheless we still use them, the mind likes something to cling to even if that thing is nonsense.

 

 


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Shiva
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Posted by: @katrice

Maybe because I believed such crazy things ...

No, not at all. I believe you had a chat with Aiwass.

Posted by: @pertinax

'look at that crazy guy, what does he know?'.

Yonder beggar may be a King? Okay. As long as he leaves me alone, I'll not strike hard or low.


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katrice
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Posted by: @pertinax

 In any case the implicit assertion is that if you join that particular group you will never be promoted to 5=6, so there's no point. 

Exactly.  I wonder how many potential students know this from the start?

I went through a phase where it was relevant, the Peacock Angel as 'Rex Mundi', a sort of avatar of samsara I suppose, if you'll pardon the mixing of traditions.

I have a heretical view of Melek Taus as related to Aiwass, and as a figure of Luciferean enlightenment and liberation. 

 

I can certainly see how my upbringing has shaped my preferences.

Awareness of that idea gives one the freedom to continue or discard it

There are quite a few escapees from various conservative Christian traditions within the Thelemic community, and I suspect that quite a few of them transfer their attitudes without realising it. It's really just changing the window dressing but stocking the same wares.

I have run in to my share of former Christians who simply gave their beliefs a facelift. Pagans who refuse to do magick and only pray to their gods to ask them to tell them what to do.  Thelemites who are basically Catholics. 

 

Exactly. Different aspect get (in theory) dealt with at the various grades, physical situation at Malkuth, mind-body connection at Yesod, Mental framework at Hod, emotional household at Netzach. To me at least, its a gradual and iterative process of seeing through our various delusions.

Addressing, examining, and editing each level of being.  Alchemical refinement.

What strikes me again and again is that all of these religious dogmas are really nothing, just mirages that we create, and largely unverifiable. Nonetheless we still use them, the mind likes something to cling to even if that thing is nonsense.

We all need common terminology in order to communicate with each other.

 

 

Posted by: @shiva

No, not at all. I believe you had a chat with Aiwass.

Or at least actually read some books.

 

Posted by: @shiva

Yonder beggar may be a King?

 

 

promethea #20   Beggar

 

 


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Shiva
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Posted by: @katrice

I have a heretical view of Melek Taus as related to Aiwass

Not hetical at all. AC himself proclaimed Aiwass as a Sumerian Demon/God, so you're in the right neighborhood.

 


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Zīz śāday
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Posted by: @shiva
Posted by: @katrice

I have a heretical view of Melek Taus as related to Aiwass

Not hetical at all. AC himself proclaimed Aiwass as a Sumerian Demon/God, so you're in the right neighborhood.

 

 

I think the main confusion steams and lies from Victorian Egyptomaniacal tendencies associated with AL and people only tend to interpret Liber Al only in terms of Egyptian symbolism, but at the same time this is understandable, as Babylonia itself is more distant in terms of historical periods.

 

Didn't Crowley himself raise Babalon to the pedestal and say "Her womb is my city, Babel" and Babel itself means confusion?

 

Many Thelemites I have associated with tend to interpret AL only in terms of Egyptian symbolism and and for example uniting the Upper and Lower Egypt conflict in terms of their rich inner life. But imagine throwing Babylonia to the mix! It is way too much for them! Did you know that in the biblical times the whole continent of Babylonia was called The Land of Double Rebellion? Imagine uniting that one!

 

AC himself perhaps is to blame, but in my opinion AL and Thelema in general has a very rich Babyloniacus element to it, even though in a bit more veiled manner!

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eN3Fmpnoado

The boar from the forest ravages it, and Zīz śāday וְזִיז שָׂדַי‎ feeds on it


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katrice
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Posted by: @behemoth

 

Many Thelemites I have associated with tend to interpret AL only in terms of Egyptian symbolism and and for example uniting the Upper and Lower Egypt conflict in terms of their rich inner life. But imagine throwing Babylonia to the mix! It is way too much for them!

Which I guess I can see, though I've always approached Thelema in general from a Heremtic synthesis perspective, including Egyptian, Greek, Sumerian-Babylonian, and Gnostic elements and their associated Mysteries.

 

Did you know that in the biblical times the whole continent of Babylonia was called The Land of Double Rebellion? 

I did not know that! 

 


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herupakraath
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Posted by: @behemoth

I think the main confusion steams and lies from Victorian Egyptomaniacal tendencies associated with AL and people only tend to interpret Liber Al only in terms of Egyptian symbolism, but at the same time this is understandable, as Babylonia itself is more distant in terms of historical periods.

Revisionist history. The earliest mention of Babylon in writing dates to the same period the Pyramid Texts were being produced in Egypt, around 2300-2500 BCE; the earliest examples of intelligible Egyptian writing are 1000 years older than the Pyramid Texts, while the earliest examples of proto-Egyptian writing date to 4000 BCE.


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Zīz śāday
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Posted by: @katrice
Posted by: @behemoth

 

Many Thelemites I have associated with tend to interpret AL only in terms of Egyptian symbolism and and for example uniting the Upper and Lower Egypt conflict in terms of their rich inner life. But imagine throwing Babylonia to the mix! It is way too much for them!

Which I guess I can see, though I've always approached Thelema in general from a Heremtic synthesis perspective, including Egyptian, Greek, Sumerian-Babylonian, and Gnostic elements and their associated Mysteries.

 

Did you know that in the biblical times the whole continent of Babylonia was called The Land of Double Rebellion? 

I did not know that! 

 

The Land of Double Rebellion being a reference to Merathaim, a name meaning “double rebellion” that is used as an insult Babylon in an oracle in Jer 50:21.

 

I can see how Shiva associates the Sumerian/Babylonian Gods as demons, for they literally are considered as such even from the Golden Dawn standpoint, I think even Kenneth Grant writes about the Idols of Merdoach in Nightside of Eden. The excrements of Merdoach being the demons (associated with such horrendous fluids such as leukorrhea and other horrifying fluids flowing from the human female!).

 

The Double Rebellion aspect itself could be seen as the dual contending heads of Thaumiel associated with the demonic qlipha of Kether. If you read the Golden Dawn materials regarding the Qliphoth by Mathers, the conflict itself could be seen as the one between the priests of Lilith the Elder and Lilith the Younger. I think in Crowley's Moonchild novel this demonic dual head is Thaumiel-Qeretiel of the Black Lodge. These guys being the baddies in the novel.

 

 

The boar from the forest ravages it, and Zīz śāday וְזִיז שָׂדַי‎ feeds on it


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Shiva
(@shiva)
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Posted by: @herupakraath

4000 BCE.

Why that's almost exactly the same date as The Beginning of the World in the Christian reckoning of 4004 BC. I was for this reason (4004 BC) that I turned away from joining the Christian Tong ... because I also had discovered "carbon dating."

Posted by: @behemoth

I can see how Shiva associates the Sumerian/Babylonian Gods as demons

Actually, I was quoting AC's writing - "Sumerian Demon-God." There is a whole alternative history that describes the Sumerian magicians as forming alliances with these draconian entities - sort of a Faustian exchange ...

image

 

 


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katrice
(@katrice)
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Posted by: @behemoth

The Land of Double Rebellion being a reference to Merathaim, a name meaning “double rebellion” that is used as an insult Babylon in an oracle in Jer 50:21. 

Thank you for the elaboration.  

Your mention of Lilith the Elder and Lilith the Younger also made me think of the story of Inanna and Erishkigal

 

  I think in Crowley's Moonchild novel this demonic dual head is Thaumiel-Qeretiel of the Black Lodge. These guys being the baddies in the novel.

I am familiar with Moonchild. I get a giggle out of Shiva's occasional references to Edwin Arthwaite. 

 


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