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Would this be Ok or not...?  

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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
02/04/2009 11:53 am  

Dear Paul,

I have some images where I have scanned in and combined 2 cards from the Thoth deck. For instance - The Fool and Adjustment, Lust and the Chariot, so that the symbolism can be properly appreciated as intended by Crowley. My question is: as these images are derived from copyright material but now each constitute an 'original work', then would it be Ok to add them to the galleries or do you feel it may be a bit risky?

Your guidance would be appreciated,

Thanks,

Alrah.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
02/04/2009 12:56 pm  

One may search this site:

http://www.copyright.gov/

or insert a query here in this form:

http://www.copyright.gov/help/general-form.html

I've used this rule of thumb in the past: Do what thou wilt and see if they let the dogs out...


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kidneyhawk
(@kidneyhawk)
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Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 1815
02/04/2009 1:58 pm  

Alrah-

I would imagine a simple email to the copyright holder might do just fine, although it seems to me that posting these images would be akin to quoting from a copyrighted book being discussed on these forums i.e. you're not trying to sell it or pass it off as your own and reproduce it in whole for someone's free download etc. I'm hardly an authority on these things but I'm not anticipating that you'd run into terrible restriction here.

That said, I think this could be a very very interesting topic. I've worked with the Thoth Tarot for years yet, despite the resurgence of visual themes and images, I've never thought of it in terms of actual overlays and combined images. This is quite cool, actually and I would be very interested in your insights and discoveries along these lines.

Here's to hoping we'll see a new and fruitful thread arising! ๐Ÿ™‚

Kyle


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
02/04/2009 7:20 pm  

Well - if Paul says it's OK then I'll put them in the gallery:-)

I've started a thread off 'The Fool and the Harlequiness' over at Magick, Kyle, and I mentioned the pomel of Maat's sword is the same place as the Fool's heart, the chains of Maat's balances meet at the Fools eyes, and Maat's feet.... *grin* are touching that pink thing at the bottom of the Fool card. It would be lovely to discuss the symbolism in greater depth with you! ๐Ÿ™‚

Alrah.


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michaelclarke18
(@michaelclarke18)
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Posts: 1264
02/04/2009 7:36 pm  

I should imagine that the OTO would have some sort of objection...they usually do.


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kidneyhawk
(@kidneyhawk)
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Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 1815
02/04/2009 8:22 pm  

Is there any indicator in writings by either Crowley or Harris that the cards were crafted with such "overlays" in mind? I am thinking that as Harris was constructing the images in tandem with her own studies in geometry, the pictorial elements, determined by Crowley, were fit into the underlying matrix-forms or geometric structures, whereby such overlays would occur but without a carefully crafted intent in this direction. I have no contention either way but it seems that the observation of overlays may be mostly relative to Harris' use of geometric form as the "skeleton" for her sundry compositions...


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IAO131
(@iao131)
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Joined: 12 years ago
Posts: 461
02/04/2009 8:48 pm  
"michaelclarke18" wrote:
I should imagine that the OTO would have some sort of objection...they usually do.

93,

As far as Ive experienced, they object when people do things without asking and are quite generous when you are respectful and ask and explain your intent.

IAO131


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
02/04/2009 9:21 pm  
"kidneyhawk" wrote:
Is there any indicator in writings by either Crowley or Harris that the cards were crafted with such "overlays" in mind? I am thinking that as Harris was constructing the images in tandem with her own studies in geometry, the pictorial elements, determined by Crowley, were fit into the underlying matrix-forms or geometric structures, whereby such overlays would occur but without a carefully crafted intent in this direction. I have no contention either way but it seems that the observation of overlays may be mostly relative to Harris' use of geometric form as the "skeleton" for her sundry compositions...

I believe people used to be required to trace the cards and overlay the outlines as part of the curriculum of study. Bill Heidrick told me about the overlays. And when you study them like that the intent behind them becomes overwhelmingly obvious.

I love the charioteer bonking the woman in Lust especially. ๐Ÿ™‚


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kidneyhawk
(@kidneyhawk)
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Posts: 1815
02/04/2009 9:42 pm  

Bill Heidrick told me about the overlays

This is getting interesting! Did he, perchance, cite any source which indicated that this was part of the original conception for the deck or imply this in when sharing this approach? Or are we thinking it was something "discovered" after the fact and put to good use by brains trained in Qabalah?


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
02/04/2009 10:11 pm  
"kidneyhawk" wrote:

Bill Heidrick told me about the overlays

This is getting interesting! Did he, perchance, cite any source which indicated that this was part of the original conception for the deck or imply this in when sharing this approach? Or are we thinking it was something "discovered" after the fact and put to good use by brains trained in Qabalah?

I'm sorry Kyle, but at the time I was so busy saying 'wow really?' and studying the cards in a new light, that I just didn't think to ask him. He also mentioned that in the background of the cards are representations of various parts of the body - intestines, skin etc. I had thought they were simply abstract patterns at the time.

Thinking about it... I wonder where Crowley got the idea from? Perhaps there are other occult pictures out there that only make sense when combined with other ones? It's quite a neat way of hiding stuff in plain sight, isn't it? Like you, I had also used the cards for years without realising there was more to them. ๐Ÿ™‚


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Palamedes
(@palamedes)
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Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 450
03/04/2009 12:40 am  

I am not sure, but I guess that - if the cards where meant to make sense and to fit when overlayed - the modus operandi might lie in the properties of projective geometry, which Frieda Lady Harris was familiar with and which she employed in the designs of the Thoth Deck. Just an idea.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
03/04/2009 12:32 pm  

Damn I remember a website that discussed this from a few years back. Can't find it right now.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
03/04/2009 12:36 pm  

Here's what I was thinking about, as prompted by Iskandars post:

http://user.cyberlink.ch/~koenig/dplanet/stephen/claas/olive_e.html


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
03/04/2009 6:24 pm  

Thanks Nashimiron. ๐Ÿ™‚

That's a really interesting read.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
03/04/2009 7:06 pm  

A few interesting examples here as well:

http://www.caduceusbooks.com/occultartgallery/harris/harris.html


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
19/04/2009 11:48 am  

Alrah,

I have a strong interest in this, as I'm also executing a new analysis of the deck. What I've done (as suggested by 666TSAEB and kidneyhawk combined) is to place a clear, bold statement on my site stating that OTO seems to own the Thoth artwork and that I make no claim whatsoever to it, only to my own words. However, I have a mind to publish eventually, and so clearance would be needed to reproduce the images within a book. I shall follow you as closely as I can and look forward to seeing your images.


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IAO131
(@iao131)
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Joined: 12 years ago
Posts: 461
19/04/2009 5:11 pm  
"nashimiron" wrote:
Here's what I was thinking about, as prompted by Iskandars post:

http://user.cyberlink.ch/~koenig/dplanet/stephen/claas/olive_e.html

93,

Thats sort of interesting although the author never bothers to explain how projective geometry appears in the Tarot really, nor does the author talk about how they came to see those Tarot cards being combined except by the fact that the images sort of link up (and how does that have to do with projective geometry if youre just putting hands with hands and circles with circles?)

Frieda Harris' connection to Anthroposophy is interesting - I live a few hundred feet from a Waldorf school.

IAO131


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