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2008 e.v. Economic Crash = The Tower (XVI)?  

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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
15/06/2009 6:40 pm  

93!

(This is my first contribution to the forum. I am not usually a big fan of forums, but this is a subject that kinda puzzled me. Since I couldn't find anywhere any kind of discussion about this specific matter, I created this topic. If there is any other topic already discussing it, I apologize)

As many of you know, the Thelemic Year (as it is counted on the top right section of LaShTAL itself) may be counted as in a relation to the Tarot Cards.

This being said, I remember that a couple of thelemites, friends of mine, were discussing in the beggining of last year (2008 e.v.) if the Trump for that year would be represented by The Devil (XV) or The Tower (XVI). This was due to the fact that The Fool (0) may be counted by some as the first card (since its number is Zero), and by others as the 22nd card (since it has no number at all, meaning either the beginning or the end might be its place - however, since every other Trump have their own number, it would be better placed as the 22nd card, meaning that the Year of the Fool would be 22nd year of each cicle - being the next Year of the Fool the year of of 2014 in era vulgari).

Anyway, last night I was thinking about it, and it stuck me that the best suited Trump for last year would certainly be The Tower, and the proof of that would be the Crash that the world Economy felt last year.

I would like to know your opinions and thoughts on the subject, specially if you believe this kind of situation has any relation to "prophetic manners" in any way.

Thank you very much.

93,93/93.


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IAO131
(@iao131)
Member
Joined: 12 years ago
Posts: 462
15/06/2009 8:56 pm  
"ivancoxa" wrote:
93!

(This is my first contribution to the forum. I am not usually a big fan of forums, but this is a subject that kinda puzzled me. Since I couldn't find anywhere any kind of discussion about this specific matter, I created this topic. If there is any other topic already discussing it, I apologize)

As many of you know, the Thelemic Year (as it is counted on the top right section of LaShTAL itself) may be counted as in a relation to the Tarot Cards.

This being said, I remember that a couple of thelemites, friends of mine, were discussing in the beggining of last year (2008 e.v.) if the Trump for that year would be represented by The Devil (XV) or The Tower (XVI). This was due to the fact that The Fool (0) may be counted by some as the first card (since its number is Zero), and by others as the 22nd card (since it has no number at all, meaning either the beginning or the end might be its place - however, since every other Trump have their own number, it would be better placed as the 22nd card, meaning that the Year of the Fool would be 22nd year of each cicle - being the next Year of the Fool the year of of 2014 in era vulgari).

Anyway, last night I was thinking about it, and it stuck me that the best suited Trump for last year would certainly be The Tower, and the proof of that would be the Crash that the world Economy felt last year.

I would like to know your opinions and thoughts on the subject, specially if you believe this kind of situation has any relation to "prophetic manners" in any way.

Thank you very much.

93,93/93.

93,

We are very much feeling the crash this year.

I dont think it has any relation to 'prophetic manners' nor do I think theres a real connection between Tarot cards and years. Its arbitrary.

IAO131


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lashtal
(@lashtal)
Owner and Editor Admin
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 5313
15/06/2009 9:07 pm  
"IAO131" wrote:
I dont think it has any relation to 'prophetic manners' nor do I think theres a real connection between Tarot cards and years. Its arbitrary.

Well said.

Owner and Editor
LAShTAL


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
15/06/2009 9:26 pm  

So, the whole idea of the 22-year-cicle and its relation to the "moods" of the Tarot Trumps would also be arbitrary?
In that, wouldn't there be implied an idea that the Cosmos works in 22-years-cicles, with these "moods" (or "situations-more-likely-to-happen") represented in the 22 Trumps?

If not, why build up the 22-year-cicle based calender? Could anyone with the proper historical/theorical knowledge care to explain it?

(please understand that I am not being apologetic to any especific interpretation. At least not yet. For now, I am just trying to build up some discussion, in order to get to some conclusions later - if possible, of course.)


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Los
 Los
(@los)
Member
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 2197
15/06/2009 9:56 pm  

Hi ivancoxa,

93

First, welcome to the forum.

Second, you should be aware that anyone who's halfway creative can probably make any year "fit" with any tarot card.

As far as anyone can tell, there's no such thing as prophecy or predictions. There's only such a thing as "postdiction" -- looking back on events and creatively interpreting them to make them fit a pre-existing "prophecy."

"ivancoxa" wrote:
In that, wouldn't there be implied an idea that the Cosmos works in 22-years-cicles, with these "moods" (or "situations-more-likely-to-happen") represented in the 22 Trumps?

A year is a measure of the time it takes our planet to orbit the sun. The cosmos doesn't run on any kind of "year" cycles (22 or otherwise), as far as I'm aware.

"Years" don't matter to the cosmos...they only matter to humans because we live on this planet.

If not, why build up the 22-year-cicle based calender?

A caldendar is just a means of classifying the passage of time. You could use anything as the basis of a calendar; how you classify the passage of time has no bearing on what's "more likely to happen."

93, 93/93


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
15/06/2009 10:43 pm  

Hello Los,
93.

First of all, thank you for your kind words.

I understand what you mean with the whole "creativity" issue, and how it can be used to do almost any relations with the Trumps.
However, that's not my point.
I am putting myself in a position as "if Crowley were alive, what would he say about the last major Earthly events?"
The economy crash and the year that "so-happen-to-be" is the XVI in his own system would certainly not be ignored, and I can say this in a very confident manner, since he did things like that while he was still alive, talking about how the World Wars were some of the biggest signs of the Aeon of Horus. It's not rare to see Crowley also talking about the "prophetic value" of his writings, specially the Book of the Law.
That's the main point I was trying to reach, by asking about "prophecy". I completely understand your arguments. However, I am also trying to understand Crowley's point of view on the matter. And I can most certainly say he believed that his work had prophetic value.

I am aware of the issues regarding measuring time. I may have expressed myself badly.
What I meant was to understand why Crowley would build a calendar that is based on 22 era-vulgari-years (in other words, 22 times the Earth completes its orbity around the Sun) as the completion of a bigger cicle (or year, whatever).

As a reference: http://www.oto-usa.org/calendar.html
(I understand that many here may have problems regarding the Caliphate. I understand that, but that's not the issue here. The link I am posting is just a reference that suggests a possible connection between the years and the Trumps)

All I am trying to understand is why Crowley, the author of a book such as 777 (with all kinds of relations among different elements in the Universe and such), would build up a 22-year (or orbits around the Sun) if not to do that as a possible relation between time and magick?

My pre-thoughts on this: Crowley was heavily influenced by neoplatonic and pythagoric thoughts. With these two combined, it would certainly be "ok" to believe that the Universe in itself contains mathematical knownledge. Please note, Los, that by doing this I am impling that Crowley certainly didn't think that "Years don't matter to the cosmos". Years DO count to the cosmos, but not in a simplist way - it would count more as a way to develop the best means to understand it. Mathematics and mysticism combined would then be a way to "better tune in" with existence.

And that's the reason of a 22-year-based calendar (or, at least, that's what I believe to be). It would be a way of better syncing up a magician's earthly-time measurement with the Cosmos. And, by doing that, I cannot see how Crowley wouldn't relate these cycles with the Trumps, since he his system is all "linked".

I also understand that many here may think of Crowley and Thelema as two different things, and that Crowley may have done many mistakes as a magician. Once again, that's not my point here. I am just trying to understand the deep metaphysics (if there is such) in the making of the Thelemic Calendar. To do that, I am trying to put a different point of view, a "crowleyan" point of view on the matter, letting aside most (or at least some) of our daily-basis secular thoughts.

I appreciate all the contributions and thoughts here presented. However, does anyone here have a more metaphysical knowledge of how the thelemic calendar might have been designed?

Thank you very much.

93,93/93.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
15/06/2009 10:44 pm  

(please forgive me for any grammar mistakes. It's been a long time since I last wrote anything in English)


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
16/06/2009 4:51 pm  
"ivancoxa" wrote:
Hello Los,
93.

First of all, thank you for your kind words.

I understand what you mean with the whole "creativity" issue, and how it can be used to do almost any relations with the Trumps.
However, that's not my point.
I am putting myself in a position as "if Crowley were alive, what would he say about the last major Earthly events?"
The economy crash and the year that "so-happen-to-be" is the XVI in his own system would certainly not be ignored, and I can say this in a very confident manner, since he did things like that while he was still alive, talking about how the World Wars were some of the biggest signs of the Aeon of Horus. It's not rare to see Crowley also talking about the "prophetic value" of his writings, specially the Book of the Law.
That's the main point I was trying to reach, by asking about "prophecy". I completely understand your arguments. However, I am also trying to understand Crowley's point of view on the matter. And I can most certainly say he believed that his work had prophetic value.

I am aware of the issues regarding measuring time. I may have expressed myself badly.
What I meant was to understand why Crowley would build a calendar that is based on 22 era-vulgari-years (in other words, 22 times the Earth completes its orbity around the Sun) as the completion of a bigger cicle (or year, whatever).

As a reference: http://www.oto-usa.org/calendar.html
(I understand that many here may have problems regarding the Caliphate. I understand that, but that's not the issue here. The link I am posting is just a reference that suggests a possible connection between the years and the Trumps)

All I am trying to understand is why Crowley, the author of a book such as 777 (with all kinds of relations among different elements in the Universe and such), would build up a 22-year (or orbits around the Sun) if not to do that as a possible relation between time and magick?

My pre-thoughts on this: Crowley was heavily influenced by neoplatonic and pythagoric thoughts. With these two combined, it would certainly be "ok" to believe that the Universe in itself contains mathematical knownledge. Please note, Los, that by doing this I am impling that Crowley certainly didn't think that "Years don't matter to the cosmos". Years DO count to the cosmos, but not in a simplist way - it would count more as a way to develop the best means to understand it. Mathematics and mysticism combined would then be a way to "better tune in" with existence.

And that's the reason of a 22-year-based calendar (or, at least, that's what I believe to be). It would be a way of better syncing up a magician's earthly-time measurement with the Cosmos. And, by doing that, I cannot see how Crowley wouldn't relate these cycles with the Trumps, since he his system is all "linked".

I also understand that many here may think of Crowley and Thelema as two different things, and that Crowley may have done many mistakes as a magician. Once again, that's not my point here. I am just trying to understand the deep metaphysics (if there is such) in the making of the Thelemic Calendar. To do that, I am trying to put a different point of view, a "crowleyan" point of view on the matter, letting aside most (or at least some) of our daily-basis secular thoughts.

I appreciate all the contributions and thoughts here presented. However, does anyone here have a more metaphysical knowledge of how the thelemic calendar might have been designed?

Thank you very much.

93,93/93.

93 ivancoxa,

You are quite correct that Crowley did engage in this and many similar practices routinely, often including consulting the I Ching prior to making rather mundane day-to-day decisions.

I am unable to answer your primary question, as I have never adopted the practice of calendar attribution to the Tarot trumps myself. I count the years of the Aeon in the more conventional manor, I, II, and so on. If I did make this attribution, however, I would place Atu 0 before Atu I, rather than at the end of the cycle.

I do employ a personalized calendar annually, dividing each year into five (roughly) equal sections of 73 days each, with the cycle commencing on the date of my birth each year, my own 'New Year's Day.' A number of people of my acquaintance have done likewise over years, with the result that the measure of time's passage for each is in keeping with their own individual calendar, in addition to the one kept in common among them. Such periods of time are often known as 'Chokmah Days,' but engaging in this practice does NOT necessarily connote claiming the Grade of Magus! 🙂


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
16/06/2009 10:31 pm  
"ivancoxa" wrote:
... the best suited Trump for last year would certainly be The Tower, and the proof of that would be the Crash that the world Economy felt last year.

Trumps are not correlationable with years - unless you want to create an arbitrary system. Besides, the tower represents "the destruction of thought," and the economy was not destroyed; it's still with us, just a bit slowed down.

But Trumps can be correlated with individual events:

Especially if they fit the image.


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 3000
16/06/2009 10:43 pm  
"Camlion" wrote:
I do employ a personalized calendar annually, dividing each year into five (roughly) equal sections of 73 days each, with the cycle commencing on the date of my birth each year, my own 'New Year's Day.' A number of people of my acquaintance have done likewise over years, with the result that the measure of time's passage for each is in keeping with their own individual calendar, in addition to the one kept in common among them. Such periods of time are often known as 'Chokmah Days,' but engaging in this practice does NOT necessarily connote claiming the Grade of Magus! 🙂

93,

Cam, my memory is faint... was it 72, or 73?

Regarding the Calender, who knows what Crowley was thinking. He enjoyed the works of Eliphas Levi, and enjoyed the way the Tarot seemed to symbolize the cycles of the Universe. Crowley liked the way he could put the Tarot onto the Tree of Life and how it all made such wonderful sense. In short, Crowley enjoyed his Magick for having the ability to be tightly tucked away into 32 little categories that he could contract and expand to his Will.

Perhaps that was his only reason for making the Calender as he did. Maybe he figured that since the Chinese have their animal calender, and Pagans have their Lunar calender, Christians with their Solar, and Hindu with theirs, all with varying types of Astrology, he would create his own. Crowley enjoyed doing things like this. I don't recall reading in any of his few works on Astrology the reasons for him creating the Calender as he did, but I imagine that if he wrote a reason it would reside within those works.

Personally, I agree with the "inside every Sephira is another Tree of Life" idea. Just as the Element of Fire has the properties of Hot and Dry, so too do various Sephiroth have different degrees, all within the same nature. It is not uncommon to hear such statements as "Kether in Malkuth", for instance.

That said, I agree with Cam in that if I were to attribute the Atu to the Calender I would begin with Zero, of course, unless the Beast documented another design. The justification behind that would be that from The Fool everything originates, and upon its completion (The Universe), it returns to the Fool, not to the Magus.

Therefore, if the Calender were enumerated in according with the Tarot as such, one could perhaps apply an overall tone to the past or coming years, but by no means should that dictate a course of action. The Blasted Tower and The Devil both represent change as much as they represent disaster in my opinion, as I can see the Blasted Tower being the tearing down of old things, along with the rebuilding of the new. Likewise The Devil has always represented the idea of even a traumatic event in order to create a valid and sometimes drastic change. This is all simple Tarot stuff.

When concerned with the Current of humanity as it is in its present form on the whole, I would not be hasty to attribute many things Thelemic to it. It may be true that the 93 Current runs the course of the Aeon, and it may be true that the same Current has major influences on the causes and effects apparent in our physical world... or it may not be true. Humanity on the whole has not demonstrated a clear understanding of the Law of Thelema even subconsciously, and the majority continue to act as little children. The stock market crashes have been long overdue as people continue to abuse what they think to be power. With little to no understanding of how their choices and decisions will impact the future for themselves and others, they make such decisions as they do. Oil companies refuse to build more refineries to help keep the supply lower than the demand, in order to keep prices high, for instance. The number of billionaires in the world is decreasing marginally. Those that still have money have invested in valuable objects, such as gold, hording it away in case the time comes where they will still need to uphold their living customs. Are all of these signs of The Blasted Tower? Who knows.

What one would have to do in order to fit that paradigm of ideas is to return to the origin of the sequence, to The Fool, and see how things played out from then on. Even then, measurements would not be considered precise, for there is still the notion of "Kether in Malkuth". Quite simply, one may read into the situation however one may choose. If the world, nay humanity in totality operated along the ideas of the Tarot and the Calender every year, and created change in accordance with Will along the lines of the Tarot, even then would the measurements not be precise, as the variables are simply too broad in range. With that said, using the Calender as some means to predict any sort of future whatsoever may be analogous to "spitting into the wind". There are approximately 6 billion people in the world. Imagine the difficulty in the mind of the Adept who uses the Tarot for his own Divinations, and that is an Adept. Now imagine that Adept trying to do that with 6 billion others, most of whom have not reached Adepthood. Then, taking that information, placing it into one card, and saying "this is the year of Adjustment". Essentially, it seems that you are positing that very sentiment.

I agree that time matters in concerns with the physical reality. I don't think that the Sun really cares when it is November or July, and I don't think it matters much to the Earth either. The cycles of well, even of humans, have been moving for many years. They will continue. Humanity has the wonderful ability to change their cycles over and over again, but how far ahead into the cycle does humanity look? How far into the future do our world's leaders actually look? Do they just see numbers created by some statistics professional telling them there is a 68% chance that things will even out, or do they actually See the change, and make that change in accordance with the Will of the people they lead?

In shorter verse, there are very many factors, perhaps too many, to be considered when attempting to put the Will of God into 6 billion varying forms, and even more factors to consider when you take into account the 6 billion various understandings of that Will. Then, to put all of that onto one Tarot card and say, "It is That!"... The Calender is perhaps better used as a personal tool.

93 93/93


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
17/06/2009 12:11 am  
"Azidonis" wrote:
Cam, my memory is faint... was it 72, or 73?

73, Az. (x 5 = 365)


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
18/06/2009 2:52 pm  

Calendar with ATU's cycle? Bill Breeze work?


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IAO131
(@iao131)
Member
Joined: 12 years ago
Posts: 462
18/06/2009 3:43 pm  
"APOSTATES" wrote:
Calendar with ATU's cycle? Bill Breeze work?

...

IAO131


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
19/07/2009 4:12 am  

I'm glad I'm not the only one to notice the phenomenal harmonic between the Tower and the events of 2008 e.v., which I, personally, do see as quite clearly related. In fact, I'd been looking at this phenomenon for quite a while. It's rarely this obvious but is becoming more so (to me. Don't feel obliged to either agree, or to argue).

Begin with year 0, not I.
It's a Thelemic calendar, and the trumps in Crowley's system explicitly begin with 0 (if they begin anywhere). He writes very clearly about this in several places. Other authors have other ideas but if you're talking about Crowley's calendar, it begins with 0 (1904e.v.). That's where his dates come from.

Year XVI (Tower) - which, let's remember, runs until the vernal Equinox in March 2009 e.v. (the beginning of the new year for the Thelemic calendar), also included the other positive side of the Tower's symbolism, that of liberation from undesirable circumstances. Bush got kicked out of his "Tower" in February, at the end of the Year of the Tower, causing the entire world to breathe an immense sigh of relief after nearly a decade of insanity.

This year, 2009 e.v., being ATU XVII, is the year of The Star. Interestingly, it's also the first ever International Year of Astronomy, an official global celebration endorsed by UNESCO and the IAU, of the wonders of Our Lady Nuit (albeit in secular terms) causing millions upon millions of ordinary people to "look up" again for perspective .
Telescopes are literally magic "windows" - also cf. the letter given to the card, Heh), - in fact, telescopes were the weapon which, in the late Renaissance paradigm-shift back in the early 17th century, led directly to the philosophical/scientific revolution which was the beginning of the really crucial downward trend for the Church. "Science" back then was called "natural magic".

---

Regarding notions in others' posts above about 2001, observe that, while it superficially contained a tower-related event, this was localised to one city in America (though Americans may sometimes view this as all-important, it isn't) and not global, not to the extent the Crash of '08, which is officially the biggest economic disaster since world war 2. Also observe that the trump for that year (after March) is IX, the Hermit -do we know of a Hermit who attained global apotheosis in that year?. Osama Bin Laden is the ultimate Hermit (albeit an evil one). He is rumoured to live in a cave, has/had hidden riches, and is the ultimate fugitive, and he's never, ever been found ("officially"). He's Mercurial, he's unextended, he's hidden, he's the secret seed.

---

If you follow this along, 2012 is Trump XX, the Aeon, or Last Judgement in the old deck.

---

No, on second thought, there's no connection.

Regards,
N.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
19/07/2009 5:29 am  

Actually I've changed my mind again. There is a connection.

(To be honest, my last statement above was a lie. I do that sometimes.).

It is the traditional a priori assumption of occultism of all flavours, that all things are connected.

"Truth" -literal or otherwise- doesn't come into it.

It is not a question of "if" a connection exists, but of how it may be found.

A year is connected to that which is symbolised by its Thelemic calendrical association by virtue of the fact that it is given it in that system. It is also connected to that which is symbolised by all other trumps, systems, symbols, etc.

The observation explored in the opening post in this thread, which I support, is just one lens to use to this end.

One can throw it away if one likes, and use another, or none at all.

Regards,
N.


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