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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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31/03/2008 2:10 am  

All hail Francis Bacon! Instiller of inductive reasoning.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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31/03/2008 4:39 am  

I don't know what use it might be; 7 Revolutions around the 7 Globes of 7 World Periods. Anything mammalion came from this humanity. All else came from previous human waves that preceded this one. Have you noticed reptiles show no evolutionary change? the Great White shark has been precisely the same for millions of years. Have you noticed any bird evolutionary changes? The door into the human realm closed during the Atlantean age. Carbon dating is dumb, during involution of the ethereal into the material, you won't see a whole lot of irradiating materials. We find radioative materials now, because the shadowy arc ended during the Atlantean period, we have been on the Luminous Arc since then. So what? relatively speaking, we are still at the beginning of it, so I don't know how big a deal it is. A lot of people have been speaking of ascension lately, not here on this site, but elsewhere. Personally, I don't think I've earned it. If there is an opportunity approaching anyone wanting it should go for it.

The seven day thing would be a punishment; or a person died not having any opportunities pertaining to specific things; or a highly evolved individual came back because of unfinished business. Actually, I see a quick return as a punishment.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
01/04/2008 5:30 pm  
"TheWitness" wrote:
On several occasions in the past, I've read that the time between incarnations is seven years. But this was before I learned the necessity of listing the sources of information in my notes. Soooo besides 'Abramelin', can anyone list any other source for the seven year period of rest belief?

I can't list a source for the severn year period of rest, but instead I can recommend an old book called = The Life Beyond Death, written by Yogi Ramacharaka. It is an interesting book written from an oriental occultist's point of view. Its contents are about the how's why's and what's, all about the other side of life and between incarnations.
ISBN 0-911662-09-X


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
03/06/2009 3:55 pm  
"Uni_Verse" wrote:
Has anyone ever compared natal charts of various 'incarnations' of the same entity?

I see this as a positive method of inquiring further into this matter. Perhaps also one should additionally consider the "death moment" chart as well, of the claimed entity. There may be fruit there as well.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
03/06/2009 4:17 pm  
"scrivener11" wrote:
"TheWitness" wrote:
On several occasions in the past, I've read that the time between incarnations is seven years. But this was before I learned the necessity of listing the sources of information in my notes. Soooo besides 'Abramelin', can anyone list any other source for the seven year period of rest belief?

I can't list a source for the severn year period of rest, but instead I can recommend an old book called = The Life Beyond Death, written by Yogi Ramacharaka. It is an interesting book written from an oriental occultist's point of view. Its contents are about the how's why's and what's, all about the other side of life and between incarnations.
ISBN 0-911662-09-X

Just as a point of interest, "Yogi Ramacharaka" was the pseudonym for an American named William Walker Atkinson. So while he may have been simulating or attempting to convey an "oriental occultist's point of view," it wasn't quite that. However, they are interesting books.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
03/06/2009 10:35 pm  

So it takes 7 years to incarnate but Crowley couldn't be bothered to wait?

Does that mean you can just say "Hey, let me skip the queue because I'm so zealous," what about if you want to chill out for a while in Heaven before being caste back here?

If the 7 year rule is a rule, it doesn't sound to be inforced very well...

How about if we actually reincarnnate as we currently think of it. Perhaps we take on the experiences of our parents up until conception and their parents etc...

What proof is there that we incarnate? Even though this is not the place for richard dawkins but if we believe we are reincarnations, perhaps we are just delusional? Someone mentioned that he could trace back historical things from his previous incarnations, that's interesting, especially for you but it doesn't give me any proof until I can do something like that myself. Our minds are so powerful that it can pick up on a great deal of information and present it to you and your ego uses it as proof for your last incarnation.

On a side note, I think I was a tree in my previous life.


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Los
 Los
(@los)
Member
Joined: 12 years ago
Posts: 2195
04/06/2009 3:13 am  

Crowley explains his opinion pretty clearly in Magick Without Tears, letter XLVII. He explains the "orthodox theory" from Blavatsky (briefly, that "souls" work off their "karmic debt" somewhere and then eventually reincarnate). Notice his irreverent attitude, calling the supposed after-death rest stop "Devachan, or Kama Loka, or some such place."

He then states, "Most of this is the merest speculation, useless and possibly harmful; but I don't mind relaxing occasionally to that extent." (emphasis mine)

He then asserts that one can swear an oath that allows one to reincarnate "immediately" (meaning apparently about six months before birth of the new body, three months after the death of the old body) to continue the Great Work as soon as possible. Presumably, Crowley himself supposedly swore this oath long ago in a previous incarnation.

The letter concludes:

"Now, dear sister, I don't like this letter at all, and I am sorry that I had to write it. For most of these statements are insusceptible of proof.

"And yet I feel their truth much more strongly than I have ventured to express. How many times have I warned you against 'feelings?'"

Crowley, of course, was warning students that just because you feel something is true doesn't mean that it is.

In letter XLI, he had made this point clearer, in which he called speculations about life after death not only "idle and senseless because you cannot possibly verify their accuracy, but a deadly poison [...] I say 'deadly poison;' because when you analyse you see at once that this is a device for flattering yourself." (emphasis mine)

It does feel good to pretend like your daydreams are real past life memories. But it's just pretend.

Of course, in Crowley's day, he didn't have the knowledge that we have now of cognitive science. It is now quite clear from studies that what we call "consciousness" is very, very likely an emergent property of brain functions. It doesn't appear as if there's any mechanism for any part of the self to survive death.

Then again, that's not a surprise: "Aye! feast! rejoice! there is no dread hereafter." -- AL II:44


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IAO131
(@iao131)
Member
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 461
06/06/2009 10:05 am  
"Los" wrote:
Of course, in Crowley's day, he didn't have the knowledge that we have now of cognitive science. It is now quite clear from studies that what we call "consciousness" is very, very likely an emergent property of brain functions. It doesn't appear as if there's any mechanism for any part of the self to survive death.

Then again, that's not a surprise: "Aye! feast! rejoice! there is no dread hereafter." -- AL II:44

Actually, I would say they were, in certain ways, stricter materialists back then because they hadn't had the nuanced arguments about qualia, the 'hard problem of consciousness' as formulated by Chalmers, etc. along with the whole cognitive revolution of the 70s-80s with Searle, etc.

Crowley quotes two authors in some early essay which essentially say "consciousness is an excretion of the brain." He says something quite similar in multiple ways in Book of Lies, too. In short, Crowley was not unaware of the strict materialist stance, although he also takes Idealist stances elsewhere, and makes fun of both materialist (think how many times he says there is more than just the plane of matter/Malkuth) and Idealist (surely a collection of knowledge like Hieroglyphics doesnt just pop into existence when I am aware of it and pop back out of existence when I am not!... sorry for the bad paraphrasing!) In the end, I think Crowley was a Pragmatist. This comes out most in Magick in Theory & Practice when he says "Our Canon of truth is Maximum Convenience" along with the line in Liber AL "Success is your proof." You see it a lot in his writings on Scientific Illuminism, especially how he always counsels to meet belief with Skepticism, but then meet Skepticism with Direct Experience. In the end, what matters is what is effective, what works, what is successful - that is pragmatism.

Either way, Crowley is unusually cautious when talking about reincarnation and after-death in multiple places, even Liber Aleph where he gives the disclaimer of something like "I say not 'This is the Truth'"... I personally think that thinking about past lives has never helped anyone find their True Will and has only led them astray. As Ive said to many others, so waht if you were Cleopatra or Genghis Khan or Leonardo or Crowley... you are you now. I can't help but think that Magical Memory and concern with past lives is just an exacerbated form of "living in the past." Same with desires to live past physical death... we are to "die daily" anyhow! Anyone with remotely good introspective powers knows we change constantly, lose powers of memory with age, etc. People are barely ever consistent across two weeks let alone two lifetimes. I know its all woo-woo and New Age but theres validity to the "be here and now" idea; delving into past and thinking about future should only serve to enhance the present... other wise looking into the past becomes nostalgia and/or regret and looking into the future becomes anxiety and/or fear.

Either way, this is one area I dont agree with Crowley at all when he counsels to look for past lives. Its a cultivation of fantasy... and probably 10,000 people become unstable with these thoughts compared to 1 person like Crowley or any good magician who can think about them but not get tangled in attachment and obsession with the lot... I think its rather pointless and "harmful" (as Los quotes above) really...

93 93/93,
IAO131


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Tiger
(@tiger)
Member
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 1538
06/06/2009 5:53 pm  

I've heard some say reincarnation happens but that there is no self that reincarnates. It is mostly a teaching tool and skillful means. However there is a magical tradition which some posters here seem to be in touch with, which might be substantiated as madness by others.

"Yogi Ramacharaka" was the pseudonym for an American named William Walker Atkinson....However, they are interesting books.

yes and JFC Fuller had a book published by the Yoga Publication Society I wonder about the connection? sorry to be off topic.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
08/06/2009 12:11 am  

I personally regard my dob as a bit of a joke. 6/16 - the new number of the beast after some clever people went back and looked at the original text and found 666 was a mistranslation. 🙂 Hundreds of thousands of people or more every year have been born on this date, and that's what makes the blatantly ego-centric desire to wring some sort of meaning out of it so funny.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
10/06/2009 12:13 pm  

You must also consider rebirth in the animal realm as proposed by the Ve -dantists due to pious or impious activities in the previous carnation of which we have no memory. It can take quite a length of time to climb the ladder so to speak , the length of time varies according to our pious or impious credits.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
13/07/2009 10:45 pm  
"IAO131" wrote:
Either way, Crowley is unusually cautious when talking about reincarnation and after-death in multiple places, even Liber Aleph where he gives the disclaimer of something like "I say not 'This is the Truth'"... I personally think that thinking about past lives has never helped anyone find their True Will and has only led them astray. As Ive said to many others, so waht if you were Cleopatra or Genghis Khan or Leonardo or Crowley... you are you now. I can't help but think that Magical Memory and concern with past lives is just an exacerbated form of "living in the past." Same with desires to live past physical death... we are to "die daily" anyhow! Anyone with remotely good introspective powers knows we change constantly, lose powers of memory with age, etc. People are barely ever consistent across two weeks let alone two lifetimes. I know its all woo-woo and New Age but theres validity to the "be here and now" idea; delving into past and thinking about future should only serve to enhance the present... other wise looking into the past becomes nostalgia and/or regret and looking into the future becomes anxiety and/or fear.

Either way, this is one area I dont agree with Crowley at all when he counsels to look for past lives. Its a cultivation of fantasy... and probably 10,000 people become unstable with these thoughts compared to 1 person like Crowley or any good magician who can think about them but not get tangled in attachment and obsession with the lot... I think its rather pointless and "harmful" (as Los quotes above) really...

93 93/93,
IAO131

I agree with you in part.... the part of people tracing back to famous individuals of the past. It seems far more likely that if reincarnation was true, then one would most likely be a peasant, a serf, a drunk in chicago, a bartender in maine... not, "George Washington," what are the odds...

Another point - the originating question on 7 years... When I was an active Buddhist I always had issues with the Bardo being up to 49 days between incarnations. After all, what is a "day" and why does the spiritual body obey the length of time associated with just our planet's rotational time around the sun?

However, I do personally believe in reincarnation, and I'm drawn to Liber Thisarb, which mentions, "It is of such importance to the Exempt Adept that We cannot overrate it. Let him in no wise adventure the plunge into the Abyss until he have accomplished this to his most perfectest satisfaction."

So the question is natural, why is Thisarb important with crossing the Abyss... and I think that's answered shortly after in Liber Thisarb - as it states, "...The Abyss is passed by virtue of the mass of the Adept and his Karma."

At this point, I ponder how Crowley observed Karma, so I turn to Liber ABA - the Pantacal, "The Pantacle is then in a sense identical with the Karma or Kamma of the Magician.

The Karma of a man is his 'ledger.' The balance has not been struck and he does not know what it is; he does not even fully know what debts he may have to pay, or what is owed him; nor does he know on what dates even those payments which he anticipates may fall due."

Further along the chapter he states, "Now consider that this Karma is all that a man has or is."

So to Crowley, our Karma is the totality of what we are... and right after that sentence he writes, "His ultimate object is to get rid of it completely."

and also, "in the beginning the Magician is not that Self, he is only the heap of refuse from which that Self is to be built up. The Magical instruments must be made before they are destroyed."

If I understand Crowley correctly, the purpose to finding one's past incarnations, is to free up the karma of the past - to then build it up to pull one in the direction suitable to taking the Oath of the Abyss.

When I read that, I was considering an old practice of Mahayana Buddhists, of remembering past actions which were contrary to their spiritual path and then performing the "4 powers" to nullify or transmute the negative karma (that action which pushes against their path of Enlightenment, Great Work, etc.) into positive karma.

So then by way of extrapolation I would offer a suggestion to why Thisarb is important and a usefulness of past life analysis:
- To free up Karma of one's past lives, thus uniting one's totality of existence into one being of "the self" - meaning not just the totality of all aspects of who you are now, but who you've been before.
- Also, to recognize the actions of the past that were against one's True Will, and perform whatever rite/ritual one knows to transform that into one's path - turn the lead into gold, by way of analogy.

But if one doesn't believe in reincarnation, i suppose the whole topic is moot and of no consequence.

I'm not even sure it matters if the past life experiences one relives is real or simply fantasy. Does it matter if the spiritual beings you conjure are real or not? Are they part of your imagination, psyche, or physical self existent entities? No matter if they are real or not, by way of engaging and handling the past (even if pure fiction) could one maybe build the perception of karma necessary to cross the abyss?

I dont know the answer to that question. who knows.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
14/07/2009 3:18 pm  

I would regard any claim of someone reicarnating within a few years of death with Extreme Suspicion!

Consider that claims are as such, only claims. Over the years I have heard all sorts of claims, one guy once told me he was previously Napoleon, Charlemaine, Caesar, and scattering of other famous persons throughout history. One must ask, why would someone make such a claim?

It is possible that the person has created this in their mind for a variety of reasons, to compensate for a menial life in this incarnation, as a bolster to a weak personality or maybe to make them feel like a more credible or powerful magickal person. In any case no one knows this for sure. Therefore, I stick to my suspicion of such claims.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
15/07/2009 10:07 am  
"AM" wrote:
I would regard any claim of someone reicarnating within a few years of death with Extreme Suspicion!

Consider that claims are as such, only claims. Over the years I have heard all sorts of claims, one guy once told me he was previously Napoleon, Charlemaine, Caesar, and scattering of other famous persons throughout history. One must ask, why would someone make such a claim?

It is possible that the person has created this in their mind for a variety of reasons, to compensate for a menial life in this incarnation, as a bolster to a weak personality or maybe to make them feel like a more credible or powerful magickal person. In any case no one knows this for sure. Therefore, I stick to my suspicion of such claims.

Certain mystical states can unseat the reason for a while. When someone is walking around with thier head in the clouds seeing the infinate in everything then they aren't paying attention to thier ego. For them they don't even believe they have an ego, or believe that it doesn't matter if they do anyway if they simply ignore it as irrelevant. That's when the ego creeps in to claim the attainment of the mystical state for itself. That's the first stage of ego expansion.

From then on it's a small step to beliving that (since no-one else seems to share your perception of the infinate) that you have been born here for a special purpose, and that you have simply discovered something that you already knew in a former life or were working towards in that former life. This is the second stage of ego expansion.

The third stage of ego expansion is when it co-opts the imagination to flesh out a background for itself, and that's usually when claims to be historical personages come in to the equation. There may be a sneeking suspicion and disquiet about then, that all may not be on the up and up, but this is usually ignored - because by then the ego believes it is God and the works of God (itself) are seen as manifesting through brillient people through history. This stage is the ultimate delusion, and it's where being part of a spiritual community that are used to seeing this kind of ego expansion comes in handy. It's best tackled quickly and nipped in the bud, but there's always the danger of it going underground (brother such and such just doesn't understand me because he's not attained yet - goes the thinking and excuses of the ego).

To aid another to tackle such a deep seated delusion is very difficult. One tactic is to also claim that you were the historical personage and make your claims to that personage very convincing and very good. It makes the deluded person very angry of course, but it also gives them a reflection of what they are desperately ignoring about themselves in order to maintain the delusion.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
15/07/2009 10:30 am  

I might also add - that's it's a nasty, unpleasant and pretty thankless task usually, but you can't get the gardening done without getting your hands dirty.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
15/07/2009 6:02 pm  

Thanks Alrah for your comments!


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