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AC defining the whole subject of Magick as an example of mythopoeia  

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Anonymous
 Anonymous
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16/09/2014 7:15 pm  
"Tao" wrote:
"david" wrote:
  No and I'm not looking for some petty conflict here.  Why do I bring in nephesh and ruach?? I didn't you did.  Seriously, maybe you need to google the levels of the Cabbalistic soul because your thinking seems to be muddled on the matter.

If you don't want a petty conflict then don't start one, boy-o. You brought up nephesh and ruach:

so you don’t know the difference between Guph, Nephesh, Ruach and Neshamah now?

I know precisely what those levels mean and I used the term "guph" precisely. Given Los's response to my post, he read it precisely as well. The question remains, why did you feel the need to bring all four levels into the conversation if not to unnecessarily attack my grasp of the qabalah... as you are once again doing in this post.

You're really almost not worth engaging with at this point but, if you're going to insist on tossing out sideways and unfounded accusations, expect them to get called out.

Tossing out sideways?  What's with this demonization of me and weird projections and strange fantasies of me back pedalling and making unfounded accusations? Could we get back to adult discussion here?. 

Now, with that said when Los talks of revealing our inclinations to ourselves (ie discovering our True Will) I strongly assume that in the Hebrew system that would correlate with the ruach surrendering to the neshamah.  The etymological root of neshamah is apparently, "deep self."  Now with that said, you keep asking me why I asked whether you know the difference between the different levels of the cabbalsitic soul as if I'm from another planet or something.    All these levels are connected that's obvious right?  Is that what you're disputing?

In response to Los's explanation of discovering our True Will you said, "Hmm... reads to me as if what your aiming at is discovering your animal instinct (guph, if you'll forgive a modicum of qabalah) and allowing it to guide your life. Sounds a bit regressive to my ear" and Los's answer was, "No, not "animal instinct," because the Will can't be identified entirely with the instinct (in the simple sense) or the Id (in the simple sense).  The True Will includes lots of activities we might call "animal" or "instinctual," but it also includes a whole lot more activities that we might call something like "higher activities," such as composing music, writing stories, planning parties, putting up Christmas trees, even making posts on websites". 

I take it that Los enlightened you on the flaw in your notion that this was, "regressive" as you put it?  I'm also going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you now understand where the guph, nephesh, ruach and neshamah stand in this issue? 

I don't mean to be rude but my time is being wasted.  I can't be more clear.  I'm done with it.  Crowley gives a brilliant assessment of the cabbalsitic levels somewhere in his Confessions by the way.


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Anonymous
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16/09/2014 8:03 pm  

Chapter 54 the Confessions

Up to this point, I have been able to interweave the strands of my three lives; the lives of the soul, the mind and the body; or, more accurately, in the language of the Cabbala, the Neschamah, the Ruach and the Nephesch. The Hebrew sages have made an admirably simple, significant and accurate classification.

The Neschamah is that aspiration which in most men is no more than a void and voiceless longing. It become articulate only when it compels the Ruach to interpret it. The Nephesch, or animal soul, is not the body itself; the body is excremental, of the Qliphoth or shells. The Nephesch is that coherent brute which animates it, from the reflexes to the highest forms of conscious activity. These again are only cognizable when they translate themselves to the Ruach.

The Ruach lastly is the machine of the mind converging on a central consciousness, which appears to be the ego. The true ego is, however, above Neschamah, whose occasional messages to the Ruach warn the human ego of the existence of his superior. Such communications may be welcomed or resented, encouraged or stifled. Initiation consists in identifying the human self with the divine, and the man who does not strain constantly to this end is simply a brute made wretched and ashamed by the fact of selfconsciousness.

I find by experience that this theory represents the facts very closel


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Anonymous
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22/09/2014 12:09 am  

I was reading about an incident of rainmaking in the Confessions.  See below. 

"threefold31" wrote:
White Sands is a desert. Great place for a test of rainmaking.

I was outside of White Sands in March 1990, and preparatory to visiting the monument I wrote out and rehearsed an Enochian evocation in the Air of Air quadrant of the Watchtowers. This is related to Aquarius, which Crowley describes in the Book of Thoth as: "Clouds - steady conveyors of water". The result of this evocation was a huge storm that rained so much, so quickly, that White Sands was closed the next morning when we went to visit. It was flooded out and they weren't letting the public in. So we changed plans and went to Lincoln Nat'l Forest, where the fallen timber was so wet we couldn't start a fire - even with gasoline poured on the woodpile!

This "confusion of the planes" is in my opinion the chief cause of failure to attain. It is constantly cropping up in all sorts of connections. The aspirant must be armed with the Magical Sword, dividing asunder the joints of the marrow of every observation that he makes. A single unanalysed idea is liable to obsess him and send him astray: "It may be for years and it may be for ever." He must never weary of assigning its exact limitations to every phenomenon. History, by the way, is full of examples of this error in major matters. Consider only how the idea that epidemics, the failure of the crops and military misfortune were due to the wrath of God, prevented the development of science, agriculture and the art of war. Last spring, 1922, there was a drought in Sicily. The priests made a mighty puja (prayer ritual) and prayed for rain. The rain came and did more harm than the drought; then the drought took hold again and lasted all the summer either in spite of the intercessions of Cybele, or whatever they call her nowadays, or because she was not to be propitiated by the adulterated sacrifices with which her modern ministers pretend that they can cozen her.
I attribute my own success in mysticism and Magick, and the much greater success that I have been able to secure for my successors, almost entirely to my scientific training. It enabled me to determine the actual physiological and psychological conditions of attainment

Chapter 28 The Confessions


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Shiva
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22/09/2014 6:10 pm  
"david" wrote:
... an incident of rainmaking in the Confessions.  "... and the much greater success that I have been able to secure for my successors ..."

🙂 😉 😀 ;D ::)

Crowley's "success" is debatable, but at least he shows evidence of attainment in dhyana and samadhi. The "success" of his "successors" is a downright figment of his imagination.

This is one of the points that comes up from time to time. That is, we don't historically see anybody "attaining" as a follower or successor to AC's methodology. As a matter of historical fact, we also don't see the methods of other Magi being used to "scientifically" (or otherwise) promote Arhatship or liberation ... or whatever the individual's name for that process or that event that will bring them to freedom from incarnation and the ever-present "monkey mind."

(But we do see insanity and assorted other aberrtions [including death] being exhibited by AC's followers and successors. To be fair, not all adherents go crazy, or flip out, or die; sometimes they just keep truckin' along - I would say that most Lashtalians here are just truckin', and are not writing to us from the asylum or from beyond the grave 🙂 ).

We definitely see religions formed and money collected ... all in the name of some guy who supposedly attained. Then we see his successors living successfully off of that money ... and often involved in scandals of one kind or another.

Now, I'll grant you and all that AC (and even other Magi) set forth some very interesting ideas and efficient practices - for gaining control of various aspects of one's life. But "success" in meeting a "full attainment?"  Nope!


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Los
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22/09/2014 9:07 pm  
"Shiva" wrote:
we don't historically see anybody "attaining" as a follower or successor to AC's methodology.

Since "attainment" is an entirely individual matter that can only be evaluated by the individual in question, what "historical" evidence are you expecting to see?

We definitely see religions formed and money collected ... all in the name of some guy who supposedly attained. Then we see his successors living successfully off of that money ... and often involved in scandals of one kind or another.

Is anyone actually "living...off of" money from Thelemic religions? I find that claim pretty hard to believe, given the tiny numbers in such groups.


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Anonymous
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23/09/2014 4:44 am  

Jack Parsons "Attained".


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Shiva
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23/09/2014 2:41 pm  
"Magickal" wrote:
Jack Parsons "Attained".

"Attained" what?


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jamie barter
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23/09/2014 3:21 pm  
"Shiva" wrote:
Crowley's "success" is debatable, but at least he shows evidence of attainment in dhyana and samadhi. The "success" of his "successors" is a downright figment of his imagination.

This is one of the points that comes up from time to time. That is, we don't historically see anybody "attaining" as a follower or successor to AC's methodology. As a matter of historical fact, we also don't see the methods of other Magi being used to "scientifically" (or otherwise) promote Arhatship or liberation ... or whatever the individual's name for that process or that event that will bring them to freedom from incarnation and the ever-present "monkey mind."

Further to Los's remark re 'historical' evidence, this is possibly because those who have “attained”, whether mahatmas, yogis, or innocent-seeming old Joe Schmoe down the road – one of your neighbours, maybe? – if they had any horse sense (which one would assume they do have) would shut up about it and certainly not broadcast it to – well, Lashtal, for example.

They would presumably know by doing so they would be invoking a whole mass of trouble for themselves – from the 21st Century equivalent of the Inquisition or cynical interrogation on the Lash by the likes of you and Los, for instance, to a thousand and one queries and supplications from those not so well ‘enlightened’ but who would quite like a bunk up the mountain of the same should the guru be so benevolently inclined (and if s/he be a bodhisattva, one presumes s/he could be.)

We have no way of categorically stating whether A.C.’s system results in “Attainment” or not – simple because we don’t have all of the evidence in, and those that will have achieved liberation or whatever are wisely keeping schtum about it.

Does that answer your point?

"Shiva" wrote:
"Magickal" wrote:
Jack Parsons "Attained".

"Attained" what?

I just knew someone was going to ask that – having managed to resist the temptation to do so myself!

N ≡ Joy


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Tao
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23/09/2014 5:28 pm  
"Shiva" wrote:
"Magickal" wrote:
Jack Parsons "Attained".

"Attained" what?

Liberation from his corporeal state through an explosive release of energy. ::)


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belmurru
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23/09/2014 8:39 pm  

Crowley enjoyed these "mythopoeic" factoids on another occasion too. Compare these passages - note that by "slip the leash" he seems to be winking at the reader, pretending to let us in on a little secret. He is making a myth in the very act of showing us how a myth was made -

The Revival of Magick, 1917

The obvious course for one who wishes to write on Magick is to invoke the God Thoth, for He is Lord both of magick and writing.
In truth, that is the very apt slip for our leash of silence. The word used by Sir Walter Scott for Magick is “gramarye,” and a ritual of magick is a “grimoire,” “grimorium,” or grammar; all from gramma, a letter. Thoth, scribe of the Gods, was probably just a man called Tahuti – the Egyptian form of the Coptic word Thoth – who invented writing. Fust, one remembers, who invented printing, became Faust, the “black magician,” the first great miracle of progress, after the conquest of fire, was this art of writing.
Magick then may be defined for our present purpose as the art of communication without obvious means.

Magick in Theory and Practice (this passage may be earlier or later than the one above)

I have omitted to say that the whole subject of Magick is an example of Mythopoeia in that particular form called Disease of Language. Thoth, God of Magick, was merely a man who invented writing, as his monuments declare clearly enough. "Grammarye", Magick, is only the Greek "Gramma". So also the old name of a Magical Ritual, "Grimoire", is merely a Grammar. It appeared marvellous to the vulgar that men should be able to communicate at a distance, and they began to attribute other powers, merely invented, to the people who were able to write. The Wand is then nothing but the pen; the Cup, the Inkpot; the Dagger, the knife for sharpening the pen; and the disk (Pantacle) is either the papyrus roll itself; or the weight which kept it in position, or the sandbox for soaking up the ink. And, of course, the Papyrus of Ani is only the Latin for toilet-paper.


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William Thirteen
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23/09/2014 10:19 pm  

to invoke the God Thoth

with Liber Israfel perhaps?


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Anonymous
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24/09/2014 3:13 am  
"Tao" wrote:
"Shiva" wrote:
"Magickal" wrote:
Jack Parsons "Attained".

"Attained" what?

Liberation from his corporeal state through an explosive release of energy. ::)

Samadhi. He connected, in the words of Carlos Santana, "The molecules with the light".


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