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 Anonymous
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25/10/2012 6:48 pm  

93

I was reading the astral plane thread from a few months ago here. There were some interesting thoughts about being fooled by astral entities impersonating higher beings. Someone quoted from "Notes for an Astral Atlas," as follows:

"Crowley" wrote:
The Magician may go on for a long time being fooled and flattered by the Astrals that he has himself modified or manufactured. Their natural subservience to himself will please him, poor ape!

They will pretend to show him marvelous mysteries, pageants of beauty and wonder unspeakably splendid; he will incline to accept them as true, for the very reason that they are images of himself idealized by the imagination.

But his real progress will stop dead. These phantasms will prevent him from coming into contact with independent intelligences, from whom alone he can learn anything new.

He will become increasingly interested in himself, imagine himself to be attaining one initiation after another. His Ego will expand unchecked, till he seem to himself to have heaven at his feet. Yet all this will be nothing but his fool's face of Narcissus smirking up from the pool that will drown him.

This caught my attention. I've not done much astral work yet, but have communicate with some entities that seem to be authentic and provide valuable information. However, now I am concerned that it may have been an illusion, so to speak, not of my mind as it was information I could not have known, but as the above quote states, of some lower astral being.

So, how do you verify such a being? How do you know if they are truly what they declare themselves to be?


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 Anonymous
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25/10/2012 7:22 pm  

This thread is almost doomed to be derailed. Be prepared to have a very confusing range of responses from now on.

Some might say you are accessing your unconscious mental structures that neuropathological patients don't seem to have much trouble to talk with. Jung and Freud might talk about archetypes, which are are the suppressed "entities" of your rational and social ego.
This view of 'astral' is purely psychological.

Then there is a view that the unconscious incorporates in itself certain ontological principles and metaphysical realities that are more than purely psychological.
These could be called 'subtle' or 'causal' planes in certain schools of thought.
So if one is to adopt this view, one should also suppose that the ordinary individual's consciousness is somehow external to the body.

I made this post because I am absolutely sure this thread will be derailed to utter nonsense in less than 1 page just because someone mentioned the word Astral. I am not taking any sides which view one should adopt.

I hope this division is now made clear and somebody with more experience of astral work might give you answers.


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Michael Staley
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MANIO - it's all in the egg
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25/10/2012 7:40 pm  
"ayino" wrote:
This thread is almost doomed to be derailed.

Only if we let it be derailed.


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Anonymous
 Anonymous
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25/10/2012 7:42 pm  

A practical approach:

Knowing the Qabalistic correspondences from memory is helpful. This may enable you to understand "on the spot" the nature of the entity.
Also, the correct use of Pentagrams (if necessary to banish an unruly entity).
Ask the entity's name. Use Gematria to ascertain its nature.
777 is useful for checking this but ideally you would consult your own Qabalah to verify and tabulate the experiences.

This may, or may not help.


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Los
 Los
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25/10/2012 8:07 pm  
"devbanana" wrote:
Someone quoted from "Notes for an Astral Atlas,"

That was me. My post on the subject is here: http://www.lashtal.com/forum/index.php/topic,5748.msg71166.html#msg71166

In it, I argue that "astral work" is really a metaphor (what Crowley calls "symbolic technicalities") that conceals the process of distinguishing the True Self from the false self (which is the heart of Thelema). There's not too much more to add to that.

I've not done much astral work yet, but have communicate with some entities that seem to be authentic and provide valuable information. However, now I am concerned that it may have been an illusion, so to speak, not of my mind as it was information I could not have known, but as the above quote states, of some lower astral being.

There aren't any "astral beings" in the sense of honest-to-goodness, external critters floating around on some "astral plane" that surrounds the material universe. Contact with "astral beings" is, at best, a kind of self-induced day dream. "Contact" with them yields no "information" that you couldn't get through other kinds of day dreaming (haven't you ever wondered why no contact with an "astral being" has ever resulted in, for example, the plans for building a machine capable of generating unlimited clean energy for the planet, or something similarly actually useful for mankind?).

Now, occult tradition holds that there are all sorts of methods for "testing" visions that you receive: for example, if you had invoked an entity of a particular planet, you could vibrate words sacred to the planet or draw symbols attibuted to it and see how the entity reacts. You could ask the entity its name and then add it up using the Qabalah to see if it's a multiple of a number sacred to the planet, etc. Those sorts of "tests" only confirm the internal consistency of the vision: they don't indicate that the vision is "real" -- in the same sense that your walk to the park is real -- because it's not. It's just happening inside your imagination. No "information" can be obtained this way, other than some knowledge of what your own mind is like (if you want to call that "information").

The danger of this sort of thing is that you can fool yourself into thinking that you're "attaining" all kinds of spiritual things by sitting around having visions. It's sort of like talking yourself into believing that you're an expert on warfare because you made it to the last level of Doom.

A far better use for this "traveling in the body of light" stuff is the practice of "rising on the planes" described in Liber O. Not because you're really "exploring" actual places but because the practice can generate the kinds of exalted states of consciousness that can be conducive of the Great Work of observing your True Will and bringing your actions into accord with it.


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Shiva
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25/10/2012 8:44 pm  

It's really very simple. You blast the "astral entity" with a pentagram. If he/she/it crumbles into ashes, it was an "evil demon."  If he/she/it stands firm (usually smiling or laughing at you), it can be considered suitable for further interaction. "Fool! If he be a King, thou canst not hurt him. Therefore strike hard & low, and to hell with them, master!" - AL II:59-60

[/align:2vbt4gji]

See this technique in video action in a one-minute clip from The Sarcophagus of Nun at:[/align:2vbt4gji]

http://youtu.be/5JOrpnbcHmE [/align:2vbt4gji]


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ptoner
(@ptoner)
The plants talk to me....
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25/10/2012 9:07 pm  
"Shiva" wrote:
It's really very simple. You blast the "astral entity" with a pentagram. If he/she/it crumbles into ashes, it was an "evil demon."  If he/she/it stands firm (usually smiling or laughing at you), it can be considered suitable for further interaction. "Fool! If he be a King, thou canst not hurt him. Therefore strike hard & low, and to hell with them, master!" - AL II:59-60

Loved that Shiva! Thank you. 😛


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William Thirteen
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26/10/2012 12:12 pm  

unfortunately the YouTube video will have limited utility for the original poster since, as previously noted, he is visually impaired.


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Shiva
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26/10/2012 4:02 pm  
"WilliamThirteen" wrote:
unfortunately the YouTube video will have limited utility for the original poster since, as previously noted, he is visually impaired.

The original post includes the statement, "I was reading the astral plane thread from a few months ago..." We assume that he/she is able to somehow grasp matters correctly - or at least to have things explained by another party.


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Anonymous
 Anonymous
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27/10/2012 12:52 am  

i have experience blasting at unwanted entities with a pentagram. is a cross suitable ? what about a vector of energy straight at it ?


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Michael Staley
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27/10/2012 1:19 am  

Probably.


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Azidonis
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27/10/2012 4:19 am  

"Strike, strike the master chord!
Draw, draw the Flaming Sword!
Crowned Child and Conquering Lord,
Horus, avenger!"

2009106181428_azerz-pew-pew-pew.jpg

Apo pantos kakodaimonos!

"If you see Buddha on the road, kill him." - Zen Koan
"If he be a King, thou canst not hurt him." - Liber AL


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Los
 Los
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27/10/2012 6:33 am  
"TreeDragon7" wrote:
i have experience blasting at unwanted entities with a pentagram. is a cross suitable ? what about a vector of energy straight at it ?

I always advise students to "do a barrel roll" when they feel they are in danger.


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Azidonis
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27/10/2012 6:52 am  
"Los" wrote:
"TreeDragon7" wrote:
i have experience blasting at unwanted entities with a pentagram. is a cross suitable ? what about a vector of energy straight at it ?

I always advise students to "do a barrel roll" when they feel they are in danger.

yes

and do the blinking thing. close eyes, count to ten, then open them again. if that doesn't work, pinch the body. if that doesn't work... lol

Under no circumstances is there is a monster. And it is never in the closet, or under the bed... because there's no monster!

Try Moonchild, Chapter 5.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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27/10/2012 4:56 pm  
"Shiva" wrote:
It's really very simple. You blast the "astral entity" with a pentagram. If he/she/it crumbles into ashes, it was an "evil demon."  If he/she/it stands firm (usually smiling or laughing at you), it can be considered suitable for further interaction. "Fool! If he be a King, thou canst not hurt him. Therefore strike hard & low, and to hell with them, master!" - AL II:59-60

Thank you. I didn't realize such a technique might work, but it makes sense that with enough will behind a banishing pentagram, it should be effective.


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Azidonis
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27/10/2012 5:46 pm  
"devbanana" wrote:
"Shiva" wrote:
It's really very simple. You blast the "astral entity" with a pentagram. If he/she/it crumbles into ashes, it was an "evil demon."  If he/she/it stands firm (usually smiling or laughing at you), it can be considered suitable for further interaction. "Fool! If he be a King, thou canst not hurt him. Therefore strike hard & low, and to hell with them, master!" - AL II:59-60

Thank you. I didn't realize such a technique might work, but it makes sense that with enough will behind a banishing pentagram, it should be effective.

One of the first things I learned about banishing years ago was this same thing. Draw a pentagram on it, and charge it with the 'Divine Name' Shaddai El Chai. Of course, one can 'charge' the pentagram with any Word of Power one wills. Shaddai El Chai just happens to be the Divine Name associated with Yesod, and the Astral Plane.

Crowley simplified the pentagram drawing process with the Star Ruby (compare methods of drawing pentagrams via Star Ruby with that of the LBRP), used different but similar words to charge them ('New Aeon' words), and added an 'impromptu' method, with the phrase, "Apo panto kakodaimonos" ("Away every evil spirit"), and its corresponding gesture.


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Anonymous
 Anonymous
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28/10/2012 8:15 pm  

so is the theory that any ' star ' used still or moving, has the light to scare off a shady entity ?


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Michael Staley
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MANIO - it's all in the egg
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28/10/2012 8:47 pm  

I don't see anything in the posts in this thread, TreeDragon7, that would suggest such a theory. So what prompts your remark?


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Anonymous
 Anonymous
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28/10/2012 9:24 pm  

lol, maybe my theory hasnt been repeated but i am refering to the entire bit of making shapes out of astral light to banish entities. thats all lol


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Michael Staley
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MANIO - it's all in the egg
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28/10/2012 9:36 pm  

Why are you laughing?

I've not heard of this "entire bit" you mention. Care to expand?


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Anonymous
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29/10/2012 12:50 am  

from others entries i kept seeing pentrams drawn or maybe blasted at an unwanted entity so, i thought it was funny that you missed these pictures. the lbrp always has this in it. Entities themselves may derive from astral light. Maybe i expanded the subject too much. sorry


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Azidonis
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29/10/2012 3:06 am  
"TreeDragon7" wrote:
so is the theory that any ' star ' used still or moving, has the light to scare off a shady entity ?

No. It has nothing to do with flashy lights, pretty colors, and "entities" that "become afraid".

If you are sweeping out your house, and a stray cat tries to wander through the open door, you use whatever apparatus you need to in order to get it back out of the door. Likewise, when you are "Traveling", and some "unwanted influence arrives", you use whatever apparatus you can in order to get it "away". To this end, some common apparatuses have been used for quite some time throughout the collective history of humanity, and they have been passed along as "words&symbols to use for the purpose of Banishing".

It really has more to do with mnemonics and archetypes than some sort of "power".


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Anonymous
 Anonymous
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29/10/2012 8:02 pm  

where do the ritual tools come into this ? athame, sword, wand etc . i would think some amount of thrust is needed to remove something.


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Anonymous
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29/10/2012 10:22 pm  

i'm not saying anyone here has a wrong way of accomplishing the task. i am just exploring the pysical phenomena that has its congruent in the astral planes. as above so below.


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Azidonis
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29/10/2012 10:41 pm  

Short version: Focus aids.


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Shiva
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30/10/2012 12:45 am  
"TreeDragon7" wrote:
i would think some amount of thrust is needed to remove something.

The "something" is merely part of your psyche. All phenomena are extensions of your consciousness. But usually, someone can't just say, "It's part of me, and I'll just think reality into the form that I want."

So folks undergo training. They build wands and swords, and charge them up, and perform phenomenal magick. Eventually, they will probably be able to control their (subconscious) mind with simpler means (like direct thought). It all depends on where one is on the "path" as to what instruments and rites and words they need to use.

There's a famous ritual. In it, the candidate is asked, "In cases of danger and difficulty, in whom do you place your trust?" In freemasonry, the answer is, "In God."  In a certain Thelemic rite, the answer is, "In myself."


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kidneyhawk
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30/10/2012 1:14 pm  

And Grand Master Guatama smiles, replying:

"There IS no self."

🙂


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Shiva
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30/10/2012 2:31 pm  
"kidneyhawk" wrote:
And Grand Master Guatama smiles, replying: "There IS no self."

Well, Holy Hathoor the Cow. Without a God, and without a Self, that doesn't leave much to rely on, does it? No wonder we have to resort to pentagrams!


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kidneyhawk
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31/10/2012 2:19 am  

Without a God, and without a Self, that doesn't leave much to rely on, does it?

Perhaps not-and yet...perhaps it is in the relinquishing of reliance that both God and Self appear...after another manner. 


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wolfangel
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31/10/2012 1:35 pm  

Could it be a picture in my mind? Never sure exactly what I'll find.
Only in my dreams I turn you on. Here for just a moment then you're gone.
It's just an illusion - illusion - illusion.
Could it be that it's just an illusion putting me back in all this confusion?
Could it be that it's just an illusion now?
Could it be that it's just an illusion putting me back in all this confusion?
Could it be that it's just an illusion now? . . .

Imagination - Just An Illusion.

(Funky Revelation)


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christibrany
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01/11/2012 4:53 am  
"Shiva" wrote:
"TreeDragon7" wrote:
i would think some amount of thrust is needed to remove something.

The "something" is merely part of your psyche. All phenomena are extensions of your consciousness. But usually, someone can't just say, "It's part of me, and I'll just think reality into the form that I want."

So folks undergo training. They build wands and swords, and charge them up, and perform phenomenal magick. Eventually, they will probably be able to control their (subconscious) mind with simpler means (like direct thought). It all depends on where one is on the "path" as to what instruments and rites and words they need to use.

There's a famous ritual. In it, the candidate is asked, "In cases of danger and difficulty, in whom do you place your trust?" In freemasonry, the answer is, "In God."  In a certain Thelemic rite, the answer is, "In myself."

It often strikes me, that when i was a lad, that is, prepubescent, i had a much higher and natural control of things both mental and astral (yes they are almost the same), in a yogic sense especially. Youth is definitely a more easily spiritual time.  Now the older I/one gets, the more i realise and feel the accumulated baggage of society causing my mind to become brittle, easily led, and uncontrolled.  If only I knew how good I had HAD IT.


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 Anonymous
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02/04/2014 4:31 am  

I am quite sure Crowley deals with the argument of the validity of independent entities in "Notes for an Astral Atlas." He also gives examples concerning discerning the characteristics of an intelligence according to the name one is given in "Magick Without Tears."

When dealing with Enochian entities vibrating the names of the Governor's should suffice.

...keep separate the planes


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christibrany
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04/04/2014 12:23 am  

If you are interested in a non Thelemic approach to astral entities, I have long appreciated and enjoyed, needless to say, agreed with all of Robert Monroe's books on the subject of astral entities and travel.  I only mention this because it bolsters AC's claims with actual evidence of a more scientifically tested sort.


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Los
 Los
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04/04/2014 5:33 am  
"christibrany" wrote:
it bolsters AC's claims with actual evidence of a more scientifically tested sort.

Exactly which claims of AC do you have in mind, and what sorts of evidence? Are we talking about the same AC who said that it's irrelevant whether the "astral plane" is real or imaginary?


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Michael Staley
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04/04/2014 9:32 am  

Ignore Los, Chris. It's irrelevant whether he's real or imaginary.


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 Anonymous
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04/04/2014 3:51 pm  

I had an incident playing with the pentagram and hexagram, drawing them in the air (in that sequence), while I was in visionstate (dream or whatever). A being popped up from the ground. A girl with white hear and white glowing eyes walked straight towards me with her hands horisontal in front of her, as if she was sleepwalking. I tried to get away by kind of jumping aside but she was attracted to me like the moth to the light, so I just hit her in the face which resulted in a bright light, like a super nova. Spontaneously I though I should absorb this energy. Then, afterwards, I saw myself from the side wearing a demon's head and my body was like star fog. Beautiful.


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 Anonymous
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14/04/2014 10:58 am  

Furthermore,

a most striking and undeniably real measure of an independent intelligence,  is that you will be told some "Thing"- a piece of information a'which you could not possibly have known prior. Aleister Crowley and others have written of this phenomenon (please excuse the absence of quotes here - perhaps other members can help here. I will try and find it/them.) The Amalantra working;  "The Vision and The Voice"; Sir Edward Kelly's and Dr John Dee's skrying vis Angelic Intelligences, are profound examples of such encounters.

I will give an example from my own experiences many years ago - it was rather straight-forward in comparison. I was taken upon a series of fourteen consecutive visions 18yrs ago (when I write of being taken I mean I did not Will it ; they all occurred over consecutive days immediately upon raising The Kundalini.)

During the first of these visions, a figure of a man appeared; he was about late thirties and his countenace was, unto my perception,  a man of great vigour and a very warm temperament. Moreso there was an aire inarguable authority about him; there was no sense of perfidiousness or any untoward intent. He told me that he was going to show me the Three Worlds. Immediately I thought: but there's four worlds; however later I came to the realisation that Assiah was far behind us.

Regards


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