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David Dom Lemieux
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—  Aleister Crowley Book VI : Liber O (1909) Context: In this book it is spoken of the Sephiroth and the Paths; of Spirits and Conjurations; of Gods, Spheres, Planes, and many other things which may or may not exist. It is immaterial whether these exist or not. By doing certain things certain results will follow; students are most earnestly warned against attributing objective reality or philosophic validity to any of them.

 

 

I initially posted this in another thread but I'd say it needs it's own thread.  I considered that any organization or process in the cosmos could (not definitely should) conform to the 10 Sephirah and their inter- relational 22 paths.  Consider the childhood to adult stages of human development.  I switched off my analytic mind and wrote the major crises that a well-adjusted adult has to pass through from birth and came up with this and they appear to fit nicely;

 

KETHER 

A baby is born in 'bliss', on  a functional level this is oneness, it literally thinks it is The Most High (how convenient is that for this Sephiroth?) and the World is at it's command. 

CHOKMAH

The first major crisis is the 'come down', the relinquishing of that Most High status as it painfully realizes there is ...a Mother ...a second...that it relies on so boundaries are becoming established.

BINAH

The screeching feed-me neediness is literally unbearable and this crisis is dealt with by projection of it's own violence out there into the Mother.  Again Binah would appear to be convenient for terrible mother concepts.   This safety-valve function is the basis for paranoia by the way. 

CHESED

The crisis here is the crawling phase where the baby painfully leaves Mother and explores.  Handled badly (by an anxious mother) this will create a depressive uptight person. 

GEBURAH

This is the martial toddler phase, angry territorial demands must be policed by a Father so that the baby can learn to contain his own explosive rocket-fuel as it were.  Add to this the penis-envy and the  Oedipal crisis which is also a rebellion that must be curbed by the parents particularly the male. 

TIPARETH

An ego is developing particularly the individual's family role.

NETZACH

Bonding with other people outside of the family unit and later other peers are dealt with accordingly.   

HOD

Learning..particularly the lessons of moral socialization as well as the obvious 'schooling'. 

YESOD

Puberty, volatile lunar forces particularly teh first PMT for the ovulating female.  Include the first conveniently lunar 'wet dream' for the male.

MALKUTH 

The solidification of all previous forces moulding the adult personality.

If you link these 10 forces up can you see any significant relationship between the associated ATU on those 22  Paths?

This topic was modified 3 weeks ago by David Dom Lemieux

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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ignant666
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I think you have some very peculiar ideas about small children, and about their emotional/psychological development.


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @ignant666

I think you have some very peculiar ideas about small children, and about their emotional/psychological development.

Peculiar ideas, which ones?.  The stages are from the baby stage right through to puberty and on into adulthood.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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christibrany
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Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

—  Aleister Crowley Book VI : Liber O (1909) Context: In this book it is spoken of the Sephiroth and the Paths; of Spirits and Conjurations; of Gods, Spheres, Planes, and many other things which may or may not exist. It is immaterial whether these exist or not. By doing certain things certain results will follow; students are most earnestly warned against attributing objective reality or philosophic validity to any of them.

 

 

I initially posted this in another thread but I'd say it needs it's own thread.  I considered that any organization or process in the cosmos could (not definitely should) conform to the 10 Sephirah and their inter- relational 22 paths.  Consider the childhood to adult stages of human development.  I switched off my analytic mind and wrote the major crises that a well-adjusted adult has to pass through from birth and came up with this and they appear to fit nicely;

 

KETHER 

A baby is born in 'bliss', on  a functional level this is oneness, it literally thinks it is The Most High (how convenient is that for this Sephiroth?) and the World is at it's command. 

CHOKMAH

The first major crisis is the 'come down', the relinquishing of that Most High status as it painfully realizes there is ...a Mother ...a second...that it relies on so boundaries are becoming established.

BINAH

The screeching feed-me neediness is literally unbearable and this crisis is dealt with by projection of it's own violence out there into the Mother.  Again Binah would appear to be convenient for terrible mother concepts.   This safety-valve function is the basis for paranoia by the way. 

CHESED

The crisis here is the crawling phase where the baby painfully leaves Mother and explores.  Handled badly (by an anxious mother) this will create a depressive uptight person. 

GEBURAH

This is the martial toddler phase, angry territorial demands must be policed by a Father so that the baby can learn to contain his own explosive rocket-fuel as it were.  Add to this the penis-envy and the  Oedipal crisis which is also a rebellion that must be curbed by the parents particularly the male. 

TIPARETH

An ego is developing particularly the individual's family role.

NETZACH

Bonding with other people outside of the family unit and later other peers are dealt with accordingly.   

HOD

Learning..particularly the lessons of moral socialization as well as the obvious 'schooling'. 

YESOD

Puberty, volatile lunar forces particularly teh first PMT for the ovulating female.  Include the first conveniently lunar 'wet dream' for the male.

MALKUTH 

The solidification of all previous forces moulding the adult personality.

If you link these 10 forces up can you see any significant relationship between the associated ATU on those 22  Paths?

 

@david-dom-lemieux

I don't know mate, I don't really resonate with that idea.  I haven't read any other responses yet. 

 

I appreciate the construct , that you had the thought of a unique nature like this , but it doesn't seem to pan out to me.

 

If anything, we start out at the bottom and (hopefully) work our way up to the top.

I don't think life is some Grand Fall and we only have a chance as adults (your Malkuth) to work back up.

I don't see how the meanings of the sephiroth jive either.

How is ego, beautiful (in Tiphareth?)

 

How is puberty any kind of foundation (in Yesod)? If anything, puberty is extremely messy and best quickly done with.

 

 


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @christibrany

I don't think life is some Grand Fall and we only have a chance as adults (your Malkuth) to work back up.

I don't see how the meanings of the sephiroth jive either.

How is ego, beautiful (in Tiphareth?)

 

How is puberty any kind of foundation (in Yesod)? If anything, puberty is extremely messy and best quickly done with.

 

Good points Chris i.e. you call out the greater meanings of each Sephirah (beauty, foundation so on),  if you visualize or do a diagram of my TOL there you will see that the CHESED Mother-bond (which might I add is characterized by some sort of teddy bear substitute-mother as the child is learning to grasp it's independence from it's real mother) and the father GEBURAH crises feed into TIPARETH i.e. the TIPARETH-solar ego is specifically formed by sadness-depression-independence issues (CHESED) and the anger-exploration/Oedipal crises (GEBURAH).  Beauty is a sort of maths or engineering process i.e. a pivot, that's why Tipareth is Tipareth in that it is a pivot or a centre of gravity of the forces of the Tree.

Is puberty foundational?  Yes!! Look at some of the folk here or anywhere Chris,most adults never leave their teenage personality even if they lose all their hair or become fat, it becomes the foundation for the rest of their existence.  Please watch this video,  it's a song called 'Highschool never ends' and it's about a middle-aged school reunion.  It sums my point up perfectly plus it's hilarious;

 

Bowling For Soup - High School Never Ends (Official Music Video) - YouTube

 

        

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Shiva
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Posted by: @christibrany

If anything, we start out at the bottom and (hopefully) work our way up to the top.

This is what I thought. One could work from top to bottom if they were essaying the creative pre-birth cycle, or if they were re-writing Genesis.

Posted by: @christibrany

How is ego, beautiful (in Tiphareth?)

The Ego resides primarily at Tiphareth. It's job is to moderate the beastly Id with the outside society (in order to prevent savagery and bloody brawls). It's function as Moderator is in harmony with the Tipharethic qualities of "Harmony and Beaty." The correspondence is valid.

As a further Hoever, let me add that the part that causes trouble down blow is the ego (little e), which is just a cocky persona who struts and maybe bullies, AND the "super-ego," which is not spoken of much in Thelemic slang or lore.

Posted by: @christibrany

How is puberty any kind of foundation (in Yesod)? If anything, puberty is extremely messy and best quickly done with.

Similar thing. Puberty is emotional initiation time. Emotions are resident at Yesod. The correspondence is valid. This has been an unpaid dogmatic statement.

 


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christibrany
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@shiva 

 

UMMM HA!

 

...

 

OM...

 

yeah. 

just OM 


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @christibrany

@shiva 

 

UMMM HA!

 

...

 

OM...

 

yeah. 

just OM 

I just wrote Psychology's stages of development down without planning or fudging it all and they seemed to fit nicely into the Sephirah.  CHESED is about (Lord have ) Mercy and expansion.  The crisis here is the first separation attempts from Mother, the pain here is massive grief and loss, a mother's boy has run from experiencing this grief-crisis (in part due to the dumb interference of his dysfunctional mother.)  A depressive adult is forced to face his  massive canned-up grief and abandonment by his therapist.  Anyway if you're happy with the Sephirah start looking at the paths in between.   Note for example that M'em is watery and it involves sacrifice  (The Hanged Man).   This is the link between learning moral-socialization lessons HOD and the toddler's angry boundaries-establishment force GEBURAH. In order for the person to navigate through the social world peacefully (as a young adult and beyond) he must sacrifice i.e. compromise the overblown demands from the toddler phase. 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Shiva
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Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

I just wrote Psychology's stages of development down without planning or fudging

Well, yeah, if one were plotting the development (creation) of a persona, it would be proper to start at Kether and work out/down.


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David Dom Lemieux
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If we look at Ayin The Devil ATU you can see that it aligns perfectly in terms of the individual's struggle to determine what is moral.  Aleph The Magician ATU fits nicely with the baby's delusion of being King Wizard of the entire cosmos.  We have the chaos of Cheth at the top left linking total paranoia Kali violence/opiated waves of delusional peace to the first real structuring of ego-boundaries in Geburah.  

An individual's capacity to see that the world is his oyster is very much determined at the Chesed stage where the mother-bond is loosened (or meant to be).  A quiet depressive person is generally fucked in every sphere unless they overcome their canned-up grief associated with breaking away from mother.  Look at the ATU that links that stage with the 'going into the big wide world' Netzach stage; the Wheel of Fortune ATU.  

Look at 'my' Lamed link, what determines the family-ego adjustment/maladjustment level? Answer; none other than the father's capacity to punish and contain the toddler's tantrums in Geburah.

Look at NUN the Death ATU, all pretenses are stripped as the child needs to take his role in the family and 'die' as he merges with all varieties of peers i.e. products of other or similar family systems.  Look at Samekh, formerly associated with the Temperance ATU  linking the pubescent personality of Yesod with the pre-pubescent family-moulded ego of Tipareth.  The fusion of these tumultuous forces is alchemical ART.

Look at Peh The Tower ATU.  Tower receiving a lightning bolt strike that is.  That is the link between the first outer family bonding of Netzach with Hod's moral socialisation tests.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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gurugeorge
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I like the idea, and I think it's a good attempt.  But I'm not sure the supernal triad would be involved, I think they're more the (transmigrating?) "soul" that's already formed before awareness of anything whatsoever creeps in. 

IOW, in terms of psychological development, I think you'd start at Chesed ("look at me, ma, king of the world!") and follow the poor chap down to the painful realization of being a pitiful schlub in "normal" adult hell (and then there's the path up after that, if you become an aspirant). 

Discovery of, and contention with "the other" then starts at Geburah, ego formation at Tiphareth, then mental and emotional habits, then puberty, then adulthood.

Also, it might be worth thinking of the specific arcana paths (lightning bolt down, serpent up? I can't remember offhand) as well as the sephiroth themselves.


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @gurugeorge

I like the idea, and I think it's a good attempt.  But I'm not sure the supernal triad would be involved, I think they're more the (transmigrating?) "soul" that's already formed before awareness of anything whatsoever creeps in. 

IOW, in terms of psychological development, I think you'd start at Chesed ("look at me, ma, king of the world!") and follow the poor chap down to the painful realization of being a pitiful schlub in "normal" adult hell (and then there's the path up after that, if you become an aspirant). 

Discovery of, and contention with "the other" then starts at Geburah, ego formation at Tiphareth, then mental and emotional habits, then puberty, then adulthood.

Also, it might be worth thinking of the specific arcana paths (lightning bolt down, serpent up? I can't remember offhand) as well as the sephiroth themselves.

You kind of missed my point there George mate as it wasn't meant to be a '10 Cabbalsitic parts of the soul' spiritual schema, that's already been done, Yechidah, Chiah, Neshamah, memory , will , Ruach etc.  No, the presentation was about any organizational process or functioning system in anything mundane in the cosmos (nothing is mundane in actuality but anyway...)  specifically what forces are at work behind the scenes, 'occult' if you will.   I'll clarify, consider if you will a village or city cafe in Western civilization.  That is, a cafe that you see in the high street is the end- result of big hidden forces or impulses.  How did this cafe come about, how and where did it emerge from and which forces keep it in existence? 

I thought to myself, well, the cafe itself must be MALKUTH where you go to sit, order and have your food and drink and pay.  It's the finality of all the various hidden forces.  YESOD must be it's foundation, the staff who make the food/drink in the kitchen.  HOD is the taking of the profit/loss from the staff at the tills.  NETZACH is the public the customers out there in the world.  TIPARETH will be the premises as in the upkeep of the premises itself.  GEBURAH is the boss/owner of the cafe and his/her policing of it all and his/her decisions on the functioning of the cafe.  CHESED was/is his initial impulse or dream to actually become his own boss i.e. once he wanted to be a cafe-owning entrepeneur and that dream is still influencing what he is doing now.   BINAH is the ground the financial and banking systems that allow for all these things to exist but CHOKMAH is competitive capitalism itself and it's system of private property.     

Look at the Paths that link these major forces and see if they relate to the 22 Cabbalistic Paths and their ATU.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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ignant666
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This is a good exercise, and in fact recommended by our man AC, applying the QBL to every thing, activity, phenomenon, or process that presents itself.

But this QBL analysis, as applied to stages of childhood development, and the relationship of restaurants to late capitalism, etc., etc., etc., is an intensely personal, and likely idiosyncratic, process.

Like gnosis, masturbation, or writing poetry, perhaps generally best to keep the results thereof to oneself?


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Shiva
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Posted by: @ignant666

This is a good exercise, and in fact recommended by our man AC, applying the QBL to every thing, activity, phenomenon, or process that presents itself.

Memorizing the Tables is only the first step. Chris may be horrorfried to hear this. Once the memory reflexes are semi-automatic, then you take it on the road to make it a living thing (matrix, framework). One (very) quickly finds out which correspondence(s) didn't make it into the stable memory banks. After seriously forgetting some item once, it then becomes double-burned into the disk. What a learning process! 

This is also where one tests their correspondences to see how well they match up in the outer external outdoors. I have done this a lot ... but I am no expert dweller in Wonderland. An "expert" would be operating very close to that line called schizophrenia ("split mind"). "My dear man, please give me a bottle of that V.I.T.R.I.O.L., a picture of naked Atu II, and my change in Hod credits."

"Who are you calling?"

Other than slipping into Oz, this is the way to activate and reinforce the paradigm.

 


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gurugeorge
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Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

You kind of missed my point there George mate

I thought you meant it as attributions for the developmental process.  Isn't that something that happens in time from birth?  

 


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @ignant666

This is a good exercise, and in fact recommended by our man AC, applying the QBL to every thing, activity, phenomenon, or process that presents itself.

But this QBL analysis, as applied to stages of childhood development, and the relationship of restaurants to late capitalism, etc., etc., etc., is an intensely personal, and likely idiosyncratic, process.

Like gnosis, masturbation, or writing poetry, perhaps generally best to keep the results thereof to oneself?

What? 

Both examples are lifted heavily from scientific fact not my own personal beliefs.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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christibrany
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Posted by: @shiva

Memorizing the Tables is only the first step. Chris may be horrorfried to hear this. Once the memory reflexes are semi-automatic, then you take it on the road to make it a living thing (matrix, framework). One (very) quickly finds out which correspondence(s) didn't make it into the stable memory banks. After seriously forgetting some item once, it then becomes double-burned into the disk. What a learning process! 

Memory? What memory? Huh? Who? 


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christibrany
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Posted by: @shiva

. An "expert" would be operating very close to that line called schizophrenia ("split mind"). "

This is actually the central premise of the 'Typhonian' book 'Dark Doorway of the Beast' by Gareth Hewitson-May.

 

'Floating towards the amniotic state of chaos may radically alter the association of mental links, as the level of perception, the Ego and datum of reference are raised to new zones.  Results remain unnoticed, until after returning to the banality of everyday consciousness.  Very often, such a situation causes the seeker to wander in a world whose parameters no longer have any fixed geography. For as the dissolution of the matrix of the lower vehicles has already begun.  In the so called destructive phases of this experience, severe mental disorientation is experienced....This is the beginning of a journey of investigation into the abandonment of reason and conscious control in favour of direct action.'

p. 82-83


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Shiva
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Posted by: @christibrany
Posted by: @shiva

. An "expert" would be operating very close to that line called schizophrenia ("split mind"). "

Posted by: @christibrany - This is actually the central premise of the 'Typhonian' book 'Dark Doorway of the Beast' by Gareth Hewitson-May.

Right.Let's look closer: We have this mind. Or, that mind has us. People think there is one mind per personal vehicle. This is true, but it has TWO major divisions, and can easily be displayed as FOUR levels of thought. To keep it simple, let's just look at the TWO version.

Standard Metaphysics splits the mind into "Concrete" ("fixed" - "lower") and "Abstract" ("higher").

"Lower" (Hod - Netzach) relates to things in, and ideas about, the dense world (Malkuth. 3D dense reality. Hard matter, flowing water, smelly gas, measurable UV, X-radiation, electricity, and radioactive decay).

"Higher" -(Tiph-Geb-Ches) is the so-called causal plane (with 3 subplanes, as noted). These thoughts relate to non-Malkuth concepts - things like angels, karma, past lives, dhyana - that cannot be measured with Malkuthian instruments.

Please take special Note  that these "two minds" (hi-low) are divided by Paroketh

So, yes, The Path involves a "split mind" concept - not as an abstraction, but as "two worlds." Some "normal" people get these mixed up due to childhood trauma, forced programming (see Plymouth brethren), or chemical brain imbalance - they are diagnosed as "crazy" (neurotic or psychotic) and they are given dumb-down drugs that make them want to kill themselves.

So, yes, those who avoid the druggery go on to investigate this "other realm" (higher mind), and so we see (once again) that Equilibrium is the Basis of the Work. And one better keep themselves equilibrated as they move up higher. People who lose balance at higher levels do not necessarily get drugged by psychiatrists. They maintain enough balance to avoid conflict with society, but they specialize in ravings and rantings in their books, blogs, on forums, and in court(s). 

Yeah, we're all playing the "split mind" schizophrenia game. As a rule of thumb, I'd say anybody who keeps clear of ProzacTM until age 65 is likely to maintain their equilibrium, collect Social Security, and enter even higher realms for real. They may be said to have won the schizo game.

Otherwise there are those who run their keyboards and their mouths, often causing books to appear in print. The more these pronouncements tend to point toward the importance of the author, the closer to the schizo line they are coming.

Posted by: @christibrany

" ... This is the beginning of a journey of investigation into the abandonment of reason and conscious control in favour of direct action.'

Or "non-action." 


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christibrany
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Posted by: @shiva

The more these pronouncements tend to point toward the importance of the author, the closer to the schizo line they are coming.

*cough* Achad *cough*

IMHO of course


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Shiva
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Posted by: @christibrany

Achad

I felt Achad to be less affected by self-proclamation than most. Crowley put all the "magical childe" stuff on him. To my knowledge, which gets limited daily, he only flipped-out that one time when he declared himself Ipsissimus and started giving orders to Therion, a mere vMagus. This high drama at higher levels is highly hilarious, but at least it reinforces the "fact" that the 8=3 or 9=2 or 10=1 part of our being is on a remote level. Down below, in the world of men, the vehicles (which are supposed to be under yama - "control") do the craziest things.  

Anyway, my point was that impersonal "holy docs" probably have a higher mileage rating on them.

 


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David Dom Lemieux
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in the cafe schema example we have the Chokmah to Chesed Vav which is associated with the phallus or creative impulse in our case  Capitalism inspiring our go-getter to go about opening a cafe in Chesed. Teth therefore binds his dreams/goals with the practical reality of being the boss in Geburah (think man grappling with lion ATU).

Rest is 'the collecting intelligence ' of the TOL,how appropriate is that hee as the kitchen staff working using their 'heads' in Yesod  supply the day's takings of the cafe to the accounting process in Hod.

Look at the link between Yesod and potential customers in Netzach: the quality ir tastiness of the meals will 'hook' as in fish-hook them in.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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David Dom Lemieux
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Apologies for double post but accepting Crowley's Tzaddi Heh switch would attribute the Constitutative Intelligence or consciousness to Heh, 'constitute'  as in the cosmic sense like,well, a Star exploding emerging out of darkness, it is 'constitute' as in 'to set up'.   Tzaddi then would be the natural Intelligence or consciousness.

From my cafe schema this actually fits because the Chokmah capitalism 'sets up' the Tipareth private property or actual premises of the cafe that requires profit for the upkeep.

Likewise in my psychological stages of development schema the first splitting of the baby's oneness reaches fruition in Tipareth where the individuality should be more fully developed so this is commenced or constituted in Heh.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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katrice
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Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

From my cafe schema this actually fits because the Chokmah capitalism 'sets up' the Tipareth private property or actual premises of the cafe that requires profit for the upkeep

On the levels of personal and societal development, have you ever looked in to Spiral Dynamics?


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @katrice
Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

From my cafe schema this actually fits because the Chokmah capitalism 'sets up' the Tipareth private property or actual premises of the cafe that requires profit for the upkeep

On the levels of personal and societal development, have you ever looked in to Spiral Dynamics?

No I never studied it, seeing as you have maybe you could get it's base constituents into 10 stations/functions and then see if their 22 interrelated Paths you create produce any insights or apparent confirmations with traditional TOL attributes as I have done in this thread. 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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katrice
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Despite the silly title, this is a decent and succinct overview. They also used Wilber's name because he popularized it but Spiral Dynamics is not his creation

https://ultraculture.org/blog/2016/02/05/ken-wilber-spiral-dynamics/

 

 


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @katrice

 

Despite the silly title, this is a decent and succinct overview. They also used Wilber's name because he popularized it but Spiral Dynamics is not his creation

https://ultraculture.org/blog/2016/02/05/ken-wilber-spiral-dynamics/

 

 

I don't have much enthusiasm for the subject whereas you do therefore if you want to do the exercise I mention then feel free to do it.  😀 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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katrice
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Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

I don't have much enthusiasm for the subject whereas you do therefore if you want to do the exercise I mention then feel free to do it.  😀 

Beck and Cowan never mention the Tree of Life in the book that introduced Spiral Dynamics, but they had to have known of it because the levels/color scale alignment could not have been a coincidence.  The article does not mention levels beyond Turquoise but two more do exist, completing the Tree.  


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @katrice

Beck and Cowan never mention the Tree of Life in the book that introduced Spiral Dynamics, but they had to have known of it because the levels/color scale alignment could not have been a coincidence.  The article does not mention levels beyond Turquoise but two more do exist, completing the Tree.  

What about their schema fitting into 10 stations and 22 interrelated Paths?

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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katrice
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@david-dom-lemieux 

No paths really but 10 stations, reflecting personal and societal development that matches the tree,including most of the stations matching the Queen Scale, and it has a reach beyond magicians, also influencing management theory, integral psychology and memetics.


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @katrice

@david-dom-lemieux 

No paths really but 10 stations, reflecting personal and societal development that matches the tree,including most of the stations matching the Queen Scale, and it has a reach beyond magicians, also influencing management theory, integral psychology and memetics.

Ok you sold it to me , sort of in that I checked out the link but it's all out of whack regarding the TOL.  There's only 8 sections for a start.  

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Shiva
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Posted by: @katrice

No paths really but 10 stations

Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

There's only 8 sections

? How do we make 8=10? Or 10=8? 8 circuits. 10 spheres.


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@david-dom-lemieux 

The ordering is off but the colors match up to blue. Interesting that the levels that correspond to the supernals don't align with the scale. 

And I mentioned earlier in this thread that 2 more levels exist beyond what the article mentions.  Coral and Violet. 


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Posted by: @katrice

@david-dom-lemieux 

The ordering is off but the colors match up to blue. Interesting that the levels that correspond to the supernals don't align with the scale. 

And I mentioned earlier in this thread that 2 more levels exist beyond what the article mentions.  Coral and Violet. 

The colours are irrelevant it's the substance that we're interested in and his totalitarian,  tribal, egocentric concerns etc are not, as far as I can see aligning with any sort of Sephirah so yeah they use a similar colour sequence, no disrespect but so what? 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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katrice
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@david-dom-lemieux 

 his totalitarian,  tribal, egocentric concerns  

 

Not sure who you mean when you say "his". Wilber?  I already said that he didn't invent the system, he just popularized it.

 

and what exactly is totalitarian, tribal, or egocentric about Spiral Dynamics?

 

But at this point I'm also not sure if you're deliberately ignoring things for the sake of arguing or trying to draw me out in to explaining more.  I am talking about substance and not just color, simply trying to explain that the colors align with the colors of the sephiroth with corresponding color on the Queen Scale, up to but not including the Supernals.


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Posted by: @katrice

deliberately ignoring things for the sake of arguing

david do such a thing?!?!?!? Heaven forfend. Stop the presses.

If he might ever do such a thing, it would only be on a day that ends with "y".


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katrice
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Posted by: @ignant666
Posted by: @katrice

deliberately ignoring things for the sake of arguing

david do such a thing?!?!?!? Heaven forfend. Stop the presses.

If he might ever do such a thing, it would only be on a day that ends with "y".

He seems to have been in a pretty fighty mood for the past week or so.  He must be bored again.


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ignant666
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Posted by: @katrice

He seems to have been in a pretty fighty mood for the past [12+ years] or so.

FTFY, as the kids say.


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Posted by: @ignant666
Posted by: @katrice

He seems to have been in a pretty fighty mood for the past [12+ years] or so.

FTFY, as the kids say.

perhaps. I really haven't been here that long. It just seems like he's bored again and trying to stir things up.   Personally, I think there are more constructive ways to start discussions, but whatever.  Dommy's gonna Dom. 


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Posted by: @katrice

@david-dom-lemieux 

 his totalitarian,  tribal, egocentric concerns  

 

Not sure who you mean when you say "his". Wilber?  I already said that he didn't invent the system, he just popularized it.

 

and what exactly is totalitarian, tribal, or egocentric about Spiral Dynamics?

 

But at this point I'm also not sure if you're deliberately ignoring things for the sake of arguing or trying to draw me out in to explaining more.  I am talking about substance and not just color, simply trying to explain that the colors align with the colors of the sephiroth with corresponding color on the Queen Scale, up to but not including the Supernals.

What is tribal,  totalitarian and egocentric?  It's in the link that you provided.  Maybe click on your link and then you'll see.

I'm amazed at your comments because I honestly thought you were deliberately ignoring my points or you don't understand what I'm talking about due to lack of interest in the TOL and tut tut then you gang up on me with Ignant who's always up for projecting BS.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Posted by: @katrice

I'm also not sure if you're deliberately ignoring things for the sake of arguing or trying to draw me out in to explaining more.

Um, yes, this has been known to occur. Sometimes the topic stays on-thread, but the connections don't dot.

Posted by: @katrice

the Queen Scale, up to but not including the Supernals.

Now you are talking my QBL. Queen Scale rules. The circuits align with the Tree if one simple recognizes that there is no difference among the Supernals, and they fuse together to be the 8th. (The lower 7 line up just fine.

I could be accused of "fiddling" by using that 10=8 card trick, but it makes perfect sense (in my QBL).

Posted by: @katrice

trying to stir things up. 

I had the same notional. Sometimes, dom will start good threads that run for pages. He is then forced to remind (almost) everyone to stay on-topic. He is not malicious, but he is either Mischievous or Machiavellian. You task, should you decide to accept it, is to figure out which.

Posted by: @katrice

 Personally, I think there are more constructive ways to start discussions, but whatever.

We are all unique individuals. It says so in The Commentaries, somewhere. Sometimes this means that folks' thought processes differ, as well as their inner and outer motivations. Sometimes these things become manifest (digitally, on-screen, in our case), and all we can do is scratch our head, or other part, and start the mantra, "WTF?" again.

Note: WTF = 21. The "?" has no value, but I will invent one. That's it!  One. Thus 22, and we're back on the topic, again ...

 


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Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

What is tribal,  totalitarian and egocentric?  It's in the link that you provided.  Maybe click on your link and then you'll see.

Evasive response is evasive, and ironic.

 

I'm amazed at your comments because I honestly thought you were deliberately ignoring my points or you don't understand what I'm talking about due to lack of interest in the TOL 

What makes you think I don't have interest in the ToL?

The Straw Man seems strong in you today. 

 


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Posted by: @shiva

Now you are talking my QBL. Queen Scale rules. The circuits align with the Tree if one simple recognizes that there is no difference among the Supernals, and they fuse together to be the 8th. (The lower 7 line up just fine

Do they actually line up to The Tree though or is this Leary's materialism at work?  What about the 22 Paths?  The Tree emerges out of AIN SOPH AUR via Kether.  Leary presumably has Circuit 1 as Malkuth and Circuit 2 as Yesod and so on?  Sunny Tipareth then is Circuit 5 (trust a delusional 'hedonistic' Californian to make 'fun in the Sun' Tipareth the neurosomatic circuit.  Can't us Hyperboreans switch on Circuit 5 in cold brutal winters or amidst the bouncing rain and grim grey clouds of the shadow of the Tundra?  I am reminded , ironically of California's Jerry Garcia who wrote;

It rainbow spirals round and round, it trembles and explodes
It left a smoking crater of my mind I like to blow away
But the heat (i.e. the police ~ edit)  came round and busted me for smiling on a cloudy day.)

Anyway (back on Leary) furthermore his schema would make Geburah Circuit 6 and Chesed Circuit 7 which appears to be nonsensical (hey I didn't use the term BS).   The Maybe this needs a separate thread in Leary/Wilson's section.  

Posted by: @katrice
 
Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

What is tribal,  totalitarian and egocentric?  It's in the link that you provided.  Maybe click on your link and then you'll see.

Evasive response is evasive, and ironic.

What?  Wait, I now realize the communication jam there.  I was confused that you didn't appear to know the contents of your own link about a subject you are interested in.  You meant for me to define 'tribal, totalitarian and egocentric' didn't you? 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux
Posted by: @shiva

Now you are talking my QBL. Queen Scale rules. The circuits align with the Tree if one simple recognizes that there is no difference among the Supernals, and they fuse together to be the 8th. (The lower 7 line up just fine

 

We're talking about Spiral Dynamics, which does have ten levels, and where the ones corresponding to the Supernals don't match the Queen Scale, though the colors of the other levels match the corresponding sephiroth exactly. Not the Leary/Wilson 8 Circuit model, though I have had similar thoughts to yours about the 8 Circuit model myself, even if it is inexact regarding the 6th and 7th circuits, as Dom mentioned.

 

That said, Wilson's comparison of the 8 circuit model to Gurdjieff's true and false centers makes sense in the 5th corresponding to the transition from false to true centers, ie higher "nonordinary" levels of consciousness.

 

Can't us Hyperboreans switch on Circuit 5 in cold brutal winters or amidst the bouncing rain and grim grey clouds of the shadow of the Tundra? 

One can find rapture anywhere.

 

What?  Wait, I now realize the communication jam there.  I was confused that you didn't appear to know the contents of your own link about a subject you are interested in.  

I know the contents of the link quite well.  I have also read the original Beck and Cowan material on the topic too. 

 

You meant for me to define 'tribal, totalitarian and egocentric' didn't you? 

I wanted you to explain what you found to be tribal, totalitarian, and egocentric in the concept. 

 


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Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

Do they actually line up to The Tree though or is this Leary's materialism at work?

This is Farter Shiva's correlation at work. Leary never did the Circuit_tRee Alignment, nor did Wilson the Follower. I thought I clearly stated (twice) that I am reciting a key maneuver in My QBL. Please do not mix the players or the planes.

If someone, say Ignant or Katrice, or even RTC, didn't like my arrangement, then they could say, "Oh, Pooh!" and that will be that ... but it will not affect the proposition and their 8 will never fit the ten ... with nothing left over.

Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

What about the 22 Paths?

What about them? They are verbs, or "ways of doing something." They are neatly tucked into The Tree, where they "connect the dots" (the spheres). It would take a major research project, one that lasts perhaps for years - and we no longer have years to play with, to correlate various neural functions and sub-functions with the neurocircuits. Maybe I'll work on it tomorrow - I will publish the results in an Appendix in my next book, due out on April the Oneth, 2029 e.v.

Posted by: @katrice

Not the Leary/Wilson 8 Circuit model

No, I introduced my version of the 8 circuits. If 8 (of anything) line up, then they can be correlated to any other 8-element list. I merely introduced the 8-circuits = the ten spheres as an example of how 8 can become 10, or reversible mathematics.

This is based on a certain Rule of Thumb or Index Finger that says

All QBL concepts break down at the Abyss

It's funny how this unbending and irrevocable rule slips into your assessment of the Queen scale. This is why I slipped in my parallel exposition. All this QBL stuff can be made to make sense  up to Chesed ... but beyond that it's just the chattering on the monkey mind.

Posted by: @katrice

I know the contents of the link quite well.  I have also read the original Beck and Cowan material on the topic too. 

This, obviously, is not enough. You are now facing the Dom Logic Test, which is more grueling and dueling and dualing than getting a confession out of RTC.

Please continue your tranq herbs regularly. The Spring Fever Festival is not over yet. It may run on 'til the Solstice.

 


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katrice
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Posted by: @shiva

 I thought I clearly stated (twice) that I am reciting a key maneuver in My QBL. Please do not mix the players or the planes.

Personally, I thought that was quite clear. 😀 

If someone, say Ignant or Katrice, or even RTC, didn't like my arrangement, then they could say, "Oh, Pooh!" and that will be that ... but it will not affect the proposition and their 8 will never fit the ten ... with nothing left over.

I doagree with your assessment of the 8th in relation to the Supernals, but could you elaborate a little on the 6th correlation to Geburah and 7th correlation to Chesed, in terms of how their definition in the Leary/Wilson model aligns with those sephiroth? 

 

If 8 (of anything) line up, then they can be correlated to any other 8-element list

I get that. I was also underlining that Spiral Dynamics has 10 levels,it's just that the article only covered 8.  

 

All this QBL stuff can be made to make sense  up to Chesed ... but beyond that it's just the chattering on the monkey mind.

True, the rational can't pass beyond that point at all, and everything becomes fully transrational after that.  The transrational makes perfect sense as soon as one can accept that it doesn't make "sense".  😉 

 

This, obviously, is not enough. You are now facing the Dom Logic Test, which is more grueling and dueling and dualing than getting a confession out of RTC.

I had noticed that.  


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Posted by: @katrice
Can't us Hyperboreans switch on Circuit 5 in cold brutal winters or amidst the bouncing rain and grim grey clouds of the shadow of the Tundra? 

One can find rapture anywhere

Yep knew that, don't mean to be rude but there was an irony jam.

Posted by: @katrice
What?  Wait, I now realize the communication jam there.  I was confused that you didn't appear to know the contents of your own link about a subject you are interested in.  

I know the contents of the link quite well.  I have also read the original Beck and Cowan material on the topic too. 

 

You meant for me to define 'tribal, totalitarian and egocentric' didn't you? 

I wanted you to explain what you found to be tribal, totalitarian, and egocentric in the concept. 

 

 

If I get a chance I may check it out all, thanks.

Posted by: @shiva
Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

What about the 22 Paths?  Posted by: @shiva    What about them? They are verbs, or "ways of doing something." They are neatly tucked into The Tree, where they "connect the dots" (the spheres). It would take a major research project, one that lasts perhaps for years - and we no longer have years to play with, to correlate various neural functions and sub-functions with the neurocircuits. Maybe I'll work on it tomorrow - I will publish the results in an Appendix in my next book, due out on April the Oneth, 2029 e.v.

Someone already attempted did this, I'll check my notes from years ago, hopefully it's still on the internet. 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Posted by: @katrice

I doagree with your assessment of the 8th in relation to the Supernals, but could you elaborate a little on the 6th correlation to Geburah and 7th correlation to Chesed, in terms of how their definition in the Leary/Wilson model aligns with those sephiroth? 

Geburah, 6th circuit, Electric circuit ... aka Metaprogramming circuit. This is the first (lowest) circuit where the circuitry of the vehicle can be re-wired. Until this plane/sphere/stage, we are stuck with the programming of the lower self. This is change, or practical magic (of the second kind).

Chesed = 7th circuit, Akashic circuit ... aka Neurogenetic circuit. Access to genetic memory, past lives, the Akashic Records, all in alignment with our Libers and Tables.

Posted by: @katrice

I get that. I was also underlining that Spiral Dynamics has 10 levels,it's just that the article only covered 8. 

I get that. I am describing how to get "around" that. The 10 really = 8 ... if a person can shift mental gears. This involves accepting that QBL breaks down after 7.

Posted by: @katrice

it's just that the article only covered 8.  

8 out of 10 isn't bad. It shows that "they" (whoever is guilty) know better than to define the Supernals in publick places.

 


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Topic starter  
Posted by: @shiva
Posted by: @katrice

I doagree with your assessment of the 8th in relation to the Supernals, but could you elaborate a little on the 6th correlation to Geburah and 7th correlation to Chesed, in terms of how their definition in the Leary/Wilson model aligns with those sephiroth? 

Geburah, 6th circuit, Electric circuit ... aka Metaprogramming circuit. This is the first (lowest) circuit where the circuitry of the vehicle can be re-wired. Until this plane/sphere/stage, we are stuck with the programming of the lower self. This is change, or practical magic (of the second kind).

Chesed = 7th circuit, Akashic circuit ... aka Neurogenetic circuit. Access to genetic memory, past lives, the Akashic Records, all in alignment with our Libers and Tables.

Yes I know exactly what Leary's Circuits are but what I'm saying (in staying faithful to the OP) is the correlation of the circuits schema-example  don't match up, they end at Tipareth don't they or do they?  I'll clarify, Neuroelectric Metaprogramming, what does that actually have to do with Geburah?  The Tree is a whole 10 stations system that all interrelate.  If you look at my cafe developing and psychological development TOL schemas you may understand that, the TOL is a total mystical system not a group of filing cabinets that you fudge  and force things into out of convenience.  Again, you can't have the Sephirah without the 22 Paths, that would be totally disingenuous.  Furthermore for Leary he starts his correlation schema in Malkuth!  In the TOL Kether emerges from AIN SOPH AUR and so on so how do you reconcile that?

I guess you could argue that e.g. Mem the stabilizing intelligence in Leary's schema links Circuit 6 with Circuit 3, sounds promising but what about Peh, Resh, Nun and Ayin etc, how does their traditional TOL significance work in Leary's 'Circuits as Tree' offering?    Does Circuit 2 'prop' (this is the meaning of the letter Samekh) something up, Circuit 5 perhaps?   Interestingly enough in his TOL schema,  marijuana (Circuit 5 instigator) is associated with Ayin (linking Circuit 3 to Circuit 5).   Ayin is known as the renovating intelligence.   What is the relationship between Circuit 2 and Circuit 4?

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

don't match up, they end at Tipareth don't they or do they?

I just made correlations to supra-Tiph spheres - so I'm not the person to ask as my mind is already made up.

 


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