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katrice
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Posted by: @shiva
Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

don't match up, they end at Tipareth don't they or do they?

I just made correlations to supra-Tiph spheres - so I'm not the person to ask as my mind is already made up.

 

So how do you, personally, see the metaprogramming circuit align with Geburah, and the neurogenetic circuit align with Chesed?


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @katrice
Posted by: @shiva

 So how do you, personally, see the metaprogramming circuit align with Geburah, and the neurogenetic circuit align with Chesed?

He doesn't.   I guess you could attribute Circuit 6 to the radical intelligence that overhauls Circuit 5 but Chesed as archetypal neurogenetic Circuit?

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Shiva
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Posted by: @katrice

So how do you, personally, see the metaprogramming circuit align with Geburah, and the neurogenetic circuit align with Chesed?

I thought I just listed those points, taking care to insert the proper key words, purposely intending to keep it short. Perhaps short was too short?

These two circuits befuddled Wilson (R.A.) for a while. He switched them back and forth with each other, essentially juggling Geburah and Chesed. When i first encountered them, these upper circuits held no interest. Later, I mixed up 6 & 7 (as I followed Wilson's flip-flop, then compared it to Leary's original).

The key finally turned out to be the word genetic. As in neurogenetic, genetic memory, and the akashic records (all found at Chesed).

By the way, I never encountered any reference of circuits to Sephiroth in either Leary's or Wilson's work(s). Maybe it's there, maybe it's hinted at. but I never saw it in any form. Then I took on the task of correlation (over years - it was one of those "sideline projects" that we keep tucked into some semi-accessible pocket in the brainworks, and it comes out from time-to-time.

In the end, the line-up was simply linear - after many convoluted assignments that failed the test, I just started at #1 in Malkuth and worked up. After 7, only 8 is left, and that's out of the linear-mind ballpark, so it fits.

This only left 6 & 7 mixed up, eventually solved by the word genetic.

Now (and then), Dom & I have discussed this circuit-sphere thing before. This is the 4th or 5th time it has come up. Mostly we ended up diagreeing on one or two points, but once we took on a liner assault of eLGMORE. We agreed on the first four circuits and spheres, although things got shaky at Netzach - but then the assault collapsed when Dom said the 5th circuit didn't match Tiphareth, which he just repeated.

So, you see, I am tired of things breaking down at Paroketh, when they can easily continue ...I have whole chapters devoted to the circuits. If necessary, I can to post them again, in order to fine-tune any obscure points.

Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

but Chesed as archetypal neurogenetic Circuit?

Yes. 


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @shiva
Posted by: @katrice

So how do you, personally, see the metaprogramming circuit align with Geburah, and the neurogenetic circuit align with Chesed?

I thought I just listed those points, taking care to insert the proper key words, purposely intending to keep it short. Perhaps short was too short?

These two circuits befuddled Wilson (R.A.) for a while. He switched them back and forth with each other, essentially juggling Geburah and Chesed. When i first encountered them, these upper circuits held no interest. Later, I mixed up 6 & 7 (as I followed Wilson's flip-flop, then compared it to Leary's original).

 

You didn't explain why Malkuth is somehow Circuit 1 or Yesod Circuit 2.  What I think is happening here is you get lucky with Hod as the linguistic-manual Circuit 3 and you then associate 'friends' with Netzach i.e. socializing-sexual Circuit 4 and you roll with it whilst ignoring Circuits 1 and 2's correlations.   At the moment it looks like It's a fudging.   Tipareth is solar as in 'the (transcendental disidentified) centre' of satellite orbits (of the first four terrestrial Circuits)  so yeah that sort of matches but higher up the tree it doesn't do it.   If this is your TOL then fine , if it's Leary and Wilson's (typically linear/materialistic schema) then fine for them too but in terms of contributing to genuine scholarly Cabbalah it's just not doing it as I said what about the 22 Paths?  If anyone wants clarification then read all of my posts so far in this thread (or any decent book on the TOL), I've said more than enough.      

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Katrice - please pay attention (and your dues) now, as the wiggly line is put into the furnace and straightened.

Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

You didn't explain why Malkuth is ...

Oh, my goodness, I left out the real-time here-and-now reality of keeping the dense vehicle alive through survival skills of eating or running away.

But wait!  [Oxygen-rich Aire is pumped into the Furnace]. It was never my intention to "explain" the first circuit, or to expound on neurocircuitry. 

[Full Oxy] It was my intention to suggest that the 8=10, or 10=8, formulae could be used to shale off the dilemma of finding the lower Q-scale colors match Spiral Dynamics (thus making a "meaningful" synchron with each other).

Since the 8=10 maneuver involves [mentally] seeing things differently than usual, there are bound to be collateral damages and WTFs.

K.'. then - specifically - asked about Chesed-Geburah and the 6th & 7th circuits. I responded. She wanted more details. So here we are, doing the anal-isis of the third plane of the Tree, and I was reminded that I didn't start with Malkuth.

This is because I never intended to. Since I have writ all this down, offering the data (with color images as "proofs" <haha>) as a guilt-free and dues-free download, a couple times here on the threads, and now again. This is old stuff, and it hurts my brain to roll out the whole deal again - although I remain open to discussion of specific niches and dot-connectings.

Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

 At the moment it looks like It's a fudging. 

1=10
1=9
3=8
4=7
3=6
6=5
7=4

8=3 (including 2 & 1)

I wonder where the fudge is.
This is as linear as it can be
[except for the funny 8=3(+)

 


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @shiva

1=10
1=9
3=8
4=7
3=6
6=5
7=4

8=3 (including 2 & 1)

I wonder where the fudge is.
This is as linear as it can be
[except for the funny 8=3(+)

 

You could be right.  I guess you could say that Leary's 8 circuits  were formulated first by Cosmic Rays manipulating DNA and they remained dormant in the DNA blueprints.  The first creatures, plankton-like who could only retreat (hostility) OR advance (friendliness) therefore were only capable of using Circuit 1.  As time went on and on until they could bob their heads up above the water from predators Circuit 2 wasn't anywhere i.e it was dormant.  Therefore the Circuits unfold from 1 to 8 like Kether to Malkuth and back again.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Shiva
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Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

You could be right.

Only if the second line is changed to 2=9. Maybe everybody makes typos, but then they proofread before posting. I should be ashamed of myself, but not yet. When I make a serious typo (not just Farter or 1=9), then I'll reform.


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katrice
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Posted by: @shiva

The key finally turned out to be the word genetic. As in neurogenetic, genetic memory, and the akashic records (all found at Chesed).

Thank you for the explanation, it makes a lot more sense to me now, and I can easily see the logic behind it.  


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @shiva
Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

You could be right.

Only if the second line is changed to 2=9. Maybe everybody makes typos, but then they proofread before posting. I should be ashamed of myself, but not yet. When I make a serious typo (not just Farter or 1=9), then I'll reform.

No, I mean everything you said about all circuits aligning with the TOL you could be right, see my explanation about cosmic rays and DNA blueprints of circuits (lying dormant for centuries waiting to be triggered).  Ayin links Hod to Tipareth,  the Devil ATU whose corresponding plant is marijuana which triggers the Tipareth Neurosomatic Circuit.  

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Shiva
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Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

No, I mean everything you said about all circuits aligning ...

Yes. I know what you meant. I just had to use a basic trick from Science-tol-ogy (of which I have never been a member, but met them on the front lines) and took the opportunity to display and confess the error of my (3rd circuit) skills.

I have a further observation: By saying 2=9 or 6=5, et al, we are merely citing a correspondence. Correspondences help us to align diverse streams of though or deed with each other. This does not mean they are exactly equal (bold emphasis mine).

Mars and Horus are not equal in every detail. They both hang out at Geburah, and they are both butt-kickers, but their biographies are a bit different, and their Legends are not exactly the same. We could say the same Surname (Geburah) because they come from the same "town" (level of consciousness. Horus Geburah and Mars Geburah actually come from different physical towns (Edfu & Rome?), and so rather then being brothers, they are cousins.

The same for the circuits. The 6th circuit is not Mars or the Pentagram, but it shares the Geburah characteristics with them ... as indicated by the electric word.

Is this sort of thing suitable to incorporate as a major column in one's own personal Tree? For myself, yes, it is. But then I'm a doc and a metaphysician. I was forced (probably against my will), under penalty of failure to dissect human bodies, study their normal and diseased tissues under microscopes, learn how all the internal systems run (and fail), and how to get them back on track.

Naturally, with this forced labor background, I was attracted to the Leary-Wilson exposition. Superficially, it made sense, but then there were these minor discrepancies that wouldn't allow it all to "click" into synchrony. So I carried it in my back pocket (I never used a back-pack, except when I was forced to do so by agents of the US Army) for years.

It finally "clicked." The clicking tends to shift the believability bias towards the concept that this whole external world, other people, gods, demons, and Aleister were/are chemical reactions taking place in the brain.

I have been able to sort out all the basic elements of our metaphysical way-posts and have found their source(s) (not merely their correspondence) in anatomical structures, or physiological processes) in the brain. Which way-posts? The reptile brain (Malkuth) and the limbic brain (Yesod-Hod-Netzach) are easy to spot. Others are more subtle, like Paroketh, the Lmp of the Dominus Liminis.

The Ego, which is the normal "burning tip of consciousness," can move around anywhere in these structures/circuits, but is most often found in the "control room" of the prefrontal cortex - the more "abstract" we become in our thinking, the more we move forward in the brain just behind our forehead. Engaging in territorial disputes or sex will pull our awareness down to the lower circuits ... so much so, in certain circumstances, that our "higher" rational thinking is short circuited.


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @shiva

hang out at Geburah, and they are both butt-kickers, but their biographies ...Legends are not exactly the same. We could say the same Surname (Geburah) because they come from the same "town" (level of consciousness. Horus Geburah and Mars Geburah actually come from different physical towns (Edfu & Rome?), and so circuited.

Have you studied the Cabbala? For example do you know which myths of antiquity and which Tarot ATU correspond to the 10 stations and 22 Paths?

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @shiva

hang out at Geburah, and they are both butt-kickers, but their biographies ...Legends are not exactly the same. We could say the same Surname (Geburah) because they come from the same "town" (level of consciousness. Horus Geburah and Mars Geburah actually come from different physical towns (Edfu & Rome?), and so circuited.

Have you studied the Cabbala? For example do you know which myths of antiquity and which Tarot ATU correspond to the 10 stations and 22 Paths?

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Shiva
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Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

Have you studied the Cabbala?

Not spelled with a "C." (nor even a "K").

Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

For example do you know which myths of antiquity and which Tarot ATU correspond to the 10 stations and 22 Paths?

Not off hand ... unless I simply take the god/goddess (Egyptian, Greek, Roman, Hindu) attributed to any given path or sphere, then recite what I know about about that deity. It's pretty hard to get passed 777 withough looking all this stuff up.

 


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katrice
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Posted by: @shiva

Not off hand ... unless I simply take the god/goddess (Egyptian, Greek, Roman, Hindu) attributed to any given path or sphere, then recite what I know about about that deity. It's pretty hard to get passed 777 withough looking all this stuff up.

The pantheons are more complex than a lot of people think, some gods change roles over time, or take on attributes of other gods when the other fades away, or deities getting combined with other deities. For example,  is Mentu his own deity, or is he Horus, or is he Set?  Is Horus a warrior,  ruler of the pantheon, or both?  And which Horus are we talking about, The Elder, or the son of Isis and Osiris?

Don't get Kemetic Reconstructionists started on stuff like this, you'll never hear the end of it. 😉 

 


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Shiva
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Posted by: @katrice

is Mentu his own deity, or is he Horus, or is he Set?

I dunno.

Posted by: @katrice

Is Horus a warrior,  ruler of the pantheon, or both?

Yes, war. Sometimes - they play a musical throne pageant game where each one gets to sit for exactly 2000 years. Or is it 2160? Or 2500? It's so hard to count correctly when the lines of demarkation are blurred.

Posted by: @katrice

And which Horus are we talking about, The Elder, or the son of Isis and Osiris?

The latter. 

Posted by: @katrice

Don't get Kemetic Reconstructionists started on stuff like this

I wouldn't think of it. I have merely answered the test questions with 100% accuracy according to my own QBL. Any challengers, debatists, or recons will be referred to a doctor or one of the QBL puzzle threads.


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David Dom Lemieux
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Every Tarot ATU can be associated with a myth therefore it would follow that every TOL Path can also. 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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herupakraath
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Posted by: @katrice

is Mentu his own deity

 

Mentu was a god of war worshiped primarily in Thebes, as described in Liber Legis, which casts aspersions on the claims that the gods in the text are new gods, and not truly Egyptian.

Posted by: @katrice

or is he Horus, or is he Set? 

Compounded, comparative confusion that serves no purpose but to detract from the efforts to understand the god functions as defined in Liber Legis.

Posted by: @katrice

Is Horus a warrior,  ruler of the pantheon, or both

In Liber Legis, Hoor is the solar deity, having taken his seat in the east. Beyond that, Horus is such a generic term as to be useless.

Posted by: @katrice

And which Horus are we talking about, The Elder, or the son of Isis and Osiris?

One of the oldest forms of Horus has him depicted as a hawk-headed god of war, which is the exact description Ra-Hoor-Khuit provides of himself, making him the Elder.

Verse II:8 of Liber Legis upends Aleister Crowley's theory of an Aeon of Horus the child:

Who worshipped Heru-pa-kraath have worshipped me; ill, for I am the worshipper.

The use of the term worshipped indicates a past relationship, therefore Heru-pa-kraath is Horus the Child as worshiped by the ancient Egyptians. Hadit identifies himself with the ideas associated with Horus the child, thus casting himself into the role of the divine child, but not that of Isis and Osiris, but that of Nuit and Ra-Hoor-Khuit, whom he worships. The implication is that all men and woman have the potential to be divine children by becoming/achieving Hadit.

 

 


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Shiva
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Posted by: @herupakraath

Horus is such a generic term as to be useless.

In your QBL.

 


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katrice
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Posted by: @herupakraath 

Mentu was a god of war worshiped primarily in Thebes, as described in Liber Legis, which casts aspersions on the claims that the gods in the text are new gods, and not truly Egyptian.

I'd hoped that it would have been easy to infer that my questions were rhetorical, intended to illustrate the point that the deities of various pantheons tend to be more complex when viewed from the perspective of their full history, and therefore attributing them to singular categories like the Sephiroth, while useful for specific magickal applications, is still a simplification of much more complex figures.

Compounded, comparative confusion that serves no purpose but to detract from the efforts to understand the god functions as defined in Liber Legis.

I'd argue that understanding the history of what we Work with, deities, practices, etc, can help to gain more insight in to them.

 

But that's just my take. dwtw.

 

Beyond that, Horus is such a generic term as to be useless.

And of course the winged disk linked with Hadit is also representative of Heru Behudit.
 

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Shiva
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Posted by: @katrice

I'd hoped that it would have been easy to infer that my questions were rhetorica

Rhetorical prophets are people too!  

 


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @shiva
Posted by: @herupakraath

Horus is such a generic term as to be useless.

In your QBL.

 

What you're encouraging people to make their own QBL?  Check it out Shiva is a Chaos magician lol.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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katrice
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Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

What you're encouraging people to make their own QBL?  Check it out Shiva is a Chaos magician lol.

Models are the training wheels. They help to point the way to our own gnosis, and to what resonates with us best.


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Shiva
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Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

What you're encouraging people to make their own QBL?

I believe you have juxtaposition ed my meanings, intents, and references.

AC says: "Every Initiate must build his own Qabalah." This is not a new idea of mine.

I attempted to show that Horus is useless in his QBL (but not in other folks').

I did not "encourage" him to build his own QBL, but suggested that his was already built and that (he felt) "Horus" was useless, in his own QBL - that seems to be different than some others'.

 


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gurugeorge
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Posted by: @shiva

AC says: "Every Initiate must build his own Qabalah."

What that means is that every individual's trajectory through life (and therefore the phenomena they're going to "pick up" on) is gong to be different, so each individual's "tree" will have a different selection of gewgaws hanging in all the appropriate places.

I'm not sure it means, "every initiate must invent a new system of correspondences."  Do you think that?  It seems too big a task, unless it's a specific avocation.


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Shiva
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Posted by: @gurugeorge

What that means is that every individual's trajectory through life (and therefore the phenomena they're going to "pick up" on) is gong to be different

Yes, philosophically, that is how it plays out. 

Practically, as in hard-core QBL, we recently completed a long topic (perhaps within a thread, perhaps its own) about the "individual QBL."

It was, and is, my firm opinion that anyone start out with the basic 777 Tables.

Under no circumstances would I recommend starting from scratch (as in a "Chaos Magic" approach), although some folks are gonna do it, so fine. Also, other disciplines might have a totally different QBL (mental framework) - for example, the 5th ray scientists probably have mentats based on the Periodic Table and the Frequency Spectrum, while 4th ray lawyers use The Constitution or Codified Municipal Misdemeanors are the scaffold.

But in our game, it's 777 as the basic lingo, so everybody should go to grammar school. That way we can understand each other.

"Building one's own QBL" involves a few factors ...

1. Anybody can add new columns (new categories - of which, we hope, they are specialists). Since there is no Central 777 (Updated) available, the individual's new columns will likely not get global publication - and so they have begun to "build their own temple."

2. The Tzaddi and The Star reversion seems to have created a rift in agreement among people who care about these things. This is merely a lesser either/or factor that adds to, or subtracts from, their "personal" QBL.

3. The actual working with one's QBL is where the differences come in - everybody is going to "see" the path of, say, The Hermit from a different perspective. Since I am a solar and mercurial Virgo, I see it as me. Crowley saw it as a sperm cell (naturally). A guy in a cloak with a lamp, a staff, and a Cerberus dog. The meaning and precise thoughtform associated with this path will vary. If one merely has the mental image as painted on the card (any card), then one hasn't actually "walked" that path yet.

Posted by: @gurugeorge

I'm not sure it means, "every initiate must invent a new system of correspondences." 

I am certain that it doesn't. I never said, or even sleep-wrote by automatic writing, or even implied, such a thing.


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