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Cleansing & charging a new Lapis Lazuli & silver ring  

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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
05/10/2012 1:16 am  

I'm having a jeweler make a Lapis Lazuli & silver ring for me & wanted to cleanse it before use.

I have the right kind of salt (can't think of the name of it off hand) from a local witch hut (that is now sadly closed down) and was thinking of using that for the cleansing but was reading that salt with lapis & silver don't mix so I don't want to damage the ring.

There isn't a full moon until the 29th this month so I think the only other viable option is sun cleansing?  How long should it be left out in direct sun?

I realize that inherently lapis & also silver are protective in their nature (among many other things) but I would also maybe like to do some kind of ritual of protection that could be performed to charge the ring?  (what other kind of ritual would be good to charge a lapis lazuli & silver ring?)


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Shiva
(@shiva)
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05/10/2012 2:05 am  

There is also using the option of pure (distilled or de-ionized) water. All by itself.

Also, there is the prana (Chi) that can be sent from your hands and fingers - if you have this method developed to any degree.

Salt is salt, just like sugar (of any kind) is sugar. A tiny pinch of any form of salt (NaCl) in a large container of pure water will work just fine. The stone won't be affected by a light trace of salt for a short time, and the silver is going to oxidize - no matter what you do (or don't do) to it. One exception: Just don't use nitic acid or it will turn the ring black as obsidian.

If it's sterling silver (10% copper / 90% silver), it won't turn dark (or black) with age, but it will get "dull" and need a shine from time to time.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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05/10/2012 5:52 am  

I actually have an RO/DI machine which is pretty much the purest water you can get, I get levels of 0 ppm with my TDS meter.  (bottled water is around 16 ppm & my tap water is 150 ppm to give you an idea of the purity of RO/DI)

I've never read about the water cleansing (without salt) I'd love to use the salt I have from the witch hut as it's very special salt.  (I realize it's just de-ionoized sea salt I think but it's the proper "Cleansing" salt, what is it called?  Not blessed, but something else?)

Also the ring is sterling silver, 9.25% with an alloy the jeweler said was a secret from the silver manufacturer he buys his stock from to melt down to make rings.  I asked him if it was copper & he said he actually thought it is something different, with the possibility of a tiny part of the .750 copper perhaps, but still mostly another alloy)

It's a really nice ring so I don't want to take the chance of pitting it so the pure water sounds like a great idea.

Any ideas on rituals to super charge the ring?  From my understanding the combination of Lapis & silver is already a very powerful battery so I'd like to charge it with something strong.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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05/10/2012 8:39 pm  

Engraving the band, on one side or the other, both even, with certain names/words of Power or formulae would be a way to permanently charge the ring.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
06/10/2012 3:02 am  

I actually told the jeweler to engrave the inside with "JohnnyScience"

I'm not familiar with any symbols yet that I would want to get engraved on there.

So engraving it with a nickname like that will permanently charge the ring huh?  Interesting.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
06/10/2012 12:48 pm  

Well, I think that it would since the engraving is pretty much permanent.  But a "nickname" was not exactly what I had in mind.  Let me elaborate....do, or choose (very carefully), the engraving with all the one pointedness of will, focus AS IF you were doing a very important magical ceremony inside your Temple.  When you have done this without any distraction, and you are sure and confident.....hold the ring and speak the words!  Then, let it go, and hand it over to be engraved with your Word.  This act alone, in my opinion, would be of sufficient power to impress your will upon, and thus shaping the energies of your "battery" as the letters take shape.  It will be truly your Word made manifest.  There's a reason why our ancestors looked upon metalworking as magick.  This could, of course, be further charged with Ritual, Sexual Magick, and Mantric recitation of whatever you have on the ring, after the metalworking is complete 

I suppose that, if JohnnyScience is what you will to be put on your ring (or if its already there and you don't want to go through the time, effort, expense or whatever to have it removed), then you could, with that  particular manifestation, Impregnate the Word.  What I mean by that is, will into those words right there on your ring.  All other instances of them occurring such as on this page displayed on your screen being meaningless and without the scope of your one-pointed focus, at that magical moment.  Thus impressing those letters and words with whatever it is you've decided the ring is to be the outer manifestation of, and partake of that quintessence whenever its on your hand.  This Enchantment of your ring could, of course be enhanced by a sexual working (VIII*, IX*, XI*, or a combination...whatever your kink, man.) with the ring acting as the egg with which the fluid/s enter, and this "magical child" then incubating inside the Womb (as in the box it came in), feeding this "Child" with further offerings of mantra, sigil(formed from the letters of JohnnyScience and inscribed on the box), and/or fluid/s, until it is "born".  That could be hours, days, minutes (whatever your speed, man).  You would have the perfect "recharger" for your "battery", in which to always hold your ring while its not worn.

These are just a few ways out of many you can charge it.  Getting all dressed up in regalia and doing a Golden Dawn style ceremonial consecration would work just fine, too.  Do what thou wilt. 
 
This post is just a few examples of the many possible magicks you can do.  Not Doing, too, its up to you!  Really, these are just ravings of a mad mind, heavily Libationed, on Potions and Poisons nemo should consume, taken with abandon, in intoxication from Elixers of various hues, scintillating colours, the beautifully brilliant Kalas that emanated earlier from my Priestess.  I left her lying satiated, lulled languidly on the verge of sleep, most likely only now entering Shushupti.  There too, I who am NOT, must be on The Way.  No, don't follow me.  Thou art to go that way......follow the sign.....see, it reads: "Do what thou wilt"!

In the Night of Pan,
N.O.X

   


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
06/10/2012 12:59 pm  

Double post, please delete, sorry


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Los
 Los
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06/10/2012 3:38 pm  
"JohnnyScience" wrote:
So engraving it with a nickname like that will permanently charge the ring huh?  Interesting.

Out of curiosity, do you now believe that simply because someone on the internet said it?


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Shiva
(@shiva)
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06/10/2012 5:33 pm  
"JohnnyScience" wrote:
So engraving it with a nickname like that will permanently charge the ring huh?

Not any more than erecting a billboard with your nickname on it, or placing an ad in the local newspaper. There is a difference between a nickname and a Woes of Power.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
06/10/2012 8:21 pm  

Los,
"Nobody" i.e. ME (besides him misunderstanding the point) said that Los.  I know you're not really into magick at all, besides as a self-help tool, so why even interrupt this discussion with your smart ass remarks?

Shiva,
Agreed 100%.

JS,
Again, I'm in total agreement with what Shiva said.  To further my "magical metallurgy" deal above, I want to draw your attention to some of the best sword-makers in Japan today. They recite mantras and incantations while hammering the blade.  What I presented above was a variation on this technique to fit your situation.  You see, instead of hammering in those Words/Names of Power, Mantra, Invocation, etc. like the sword-makers do, one would be engraving them into the metal.  Ideally, one would recite them while doing the engraving, but I modified it further since you said the jeweler is doing the engraving.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
06/10/2012 9:10 pm  

Shiva,
Woes indeed!  Word, yo!  😉

JS,
I then modified that technique even further, as a theoretical example, just in case your jeweler had finished your ring.  I would recommend having it engraved with something other than your nickname, though.  Something appropriately meaningful for a magical ring. Like, Words/Names of Power or formulae that represent the energies that you intend to charge the ring with.  Well, whatever you do with it, feel free to update this thread and include a pic of it, if you will.


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Shiva
(@shiva)
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06/10/2012 11:50 pm  
"N.O.X" wrote:
Ideally, one would recite them while doing the engraving, but I modified it further since you said the jeweler is doing the engraving.

The jewelist must be forced to recite the "J-Science" mantra while engraving the ring.

I apologize for "woes of power," although that phrase may be entirely correct.

What I meant, of course, was Words of Power, but maybe it's only a (single) word and maybe it's a woe ::) after all.


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Los
 Los
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07/10/2012 12:00 am  
"N.O.X" wrote:
your smart ass remarks

It wasn't intended as a smart ass remark...it was a serious and relevant question.

I know you're not really into magick at all, besides as a self-help tool

As opposed to what? A self-hindrance tool?


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
07/10/2012 1:19 am  

"It wasn't intended as a smart ass remark...it was a serious and relevant question."

A serious question, really?  Obviously, as he was himself asking a question, which was asked while misunderstanding the premise, he did not "believe it", but merely found it "interesting".

"As opposed to what? A self-hindrance tool?"

There are some of us who sometimes do magick for the sake of doing magick.  A goal or purpose for purely personal gain (such as finding treasure, women, stolen property, or resolving issues or complexes in the personality, etc.) does not always have to be present before engaging in a particular Working.  Not everyone solely uses magick as a form of psychotherapy.  There are even some who have, intentionally or unintentionally, worked with forces that are hostile to states of consciousness of what we would consider "human" or "normal".  Forces which ultimately led to their destruction (Parsons being one example that comes to mind).  Magick is not as narrow a field, as that in which you work. 

Once again, you are trying to derail another thread into one of your off topic arguments.  But, I will not play your game and let you turn this one into 8 pages of pointless bickering.  Honestly, I really don't want to talk to you.  I find your game predictable and boring.  So, being the gentleman that I am, I will gracefully bow out of this thread now. 


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Los
 Los
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07/10/2012 2:15 am  
"N.O.X" wrote:
A serious question, really?

Yes. "JohnnyScience" said he found "interesting" the claim that "engraving [...] will permanently charge the ring." In context, it sounded as if he thought that the claim was true (or more likely to be true) merely on the basis of somebody on the internet saying it.  Of course, it just sounded that way, and I wasn't sure that he actually did accept the claim. So I asked him, as a way of clarifying the point for me. This isn't exactly complicated.

I really don't want to talk to you.

Then don't. You do have some kind of self-control, don't you?


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
07/10/2012 4:20 am  
"Los" wrote:
"JohnnyScience" wrote:
So engraving it with a nickname like that will permanently charge the ring huh?  Interesting.

Out of curiosity, do you now believe that simply because someone on the internet said it?

Well it's not like I'm on yahoo groups or anything asking a misguided question.  I feel I'm in the right place with the right people who are highly intelligent & have the experience to guide one such as me to where I could trust their info.  And the great thing about forums is that in case someone is wrong, there are plenty of people to come behind them to correct the info. 

I still continue to do research on answers given, but why would/should I doubt him?

I said the "concept" was interesting - not that it was the be all end all answer.

I fully anticipated to go into deeper discussion about the subject.

I also planned on engraving it with my name before NOX even mentioned anything about that an engraving enchants something.

NOX - PLEASE do NOT leave this thread, you are more than helpful.  If anything YOU Los can leave.

"Shiva" wrote:
"JohnnyScience" wrote:
So engraving it with a nickname like that will permanently charge the ring huh?

Not any more than erecting a billboard with your nickname on it, or placing an ad in the local newspaper. There is a difference between a nickname and a Woes of Power.

Can you go into more detail about this Woes of Power & mantra?

It is being made by hand by a highly skilled jeweler out of Utah and I'm not really sure how he'd feel about reciting a mantra for me.  I can & always will ask him.  If not it will have to be something said done/ritual after the engraving is already done and he ships me the ring.  Him & I had a great connection on the phone when we were talking/describing the ring so I think he is going to put that little bit of extra work into it on his own regard just to make sure it's really well done & special.  Sounded like a great & very humble older gentleman on the phone who runs his own business.

I understand that if *I* were to do the engraving/metal work it would instill much more power/magick into the ring, but I'm no good with my hands & would surely ruin the ring so having a skilled jeweler create & engrave this for me works much better for me.

He said he could engrave it by hand or have his machine do it.  Just because I'm a perfectionist I would prefer to have his machine do it (and requested it be engraved that way) but will give him a call on Monday to ask him how his hand engraving comes out & if he's recite a small mantra for me. 

Can anyone point me in the a direction that has a mantra for this purpose?

I understand that "nicknames" aren't usually used to enchant anything, but JohnnyScience is more than just a nickename - it is my "Madonna", "Prince" etc, it is who I have become & how I am addressed.  It is more than just a clever nickname on the internets and goes much deeper than that.  It is my self-given wizard name if you will.  (I know that the Frato XXX names are given when you are initiated in a fraternal society such as the OTO.)  I would say I could engrave it with that name, but JohnnyScience has a lot of meaning behind it already on so many different levels.

If I was more versed & familiar with symbols & other words of power/enchantment I would think about getting it engraved with something else, but I really don't know what else I would put on it at this time & the ring will probably be finished by this upcoming week.  So if anyone can point me in the direction of discovering something better to get it engraved with to enchant it, by all means let me know!

Thanks again for everyone's positive input.

I am also linking back up with my local chapter of the OTO & hope they can perhaps perform a ritual in the very near future to help with this enchantment along with my final initiation.

By the way, going the pure water route for cleansing, how long should the ring be left in the pure water for in order to be considered cleansed?


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Los
 Los
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07/10/2012 4:56 am  
"JohnnyScience" wrote:
I still continue to do research on answers given, but why would/should I doubt him?

Well, for starters, it’s healthy to doubt every claim that you encounter, especially when the claims are extraordinary/outlandish/patently absurd, such as, for example, the idea that a piece of jewelry can be “charged” in anything other than a metaphorical sense.

You appear to have imbibed some rather strange ideas. For example, your OP asks how long “sun cleansing” will take, but there are far more fundamental questions than this, including what makes you think that it’s possible to “charge” a piece of jewelry to begin with? Even if that were true, what makes you think it’s possible to “cleanse” that charge? Even if *that* were true, what makes you think that “sun cleansing” would do it? How would you even tell?

As Crowley puts it, “Doubt even if thou doubtest all.”

I said the "concept" was interesting - not that it was the be all end all answer.

Well, the fact that you can find it interesting – in the context of other things you were saying –suggests that at the very least you think it a feasible claim. I was just wondering whether you were taking some internet guy’s word for it, which is what it seemed like.

If anything YOU Los can leave.

No.

So if anyone can point me in the direction of discovering something better to get it engraved with to enchant it, by all means let me know!

The symbols you use depend entirely upon the purpose that you intend for the ring.

If, to pick an example that seems common among “magician” types, it’s to be a talisman for attracting wealth or material success, you could have it engraved with the symbol of Jupiter, etc. Depending on the tradition you’re working with and your intention, there could be any number of symbols that you could use. It won’t “charge” it in the sense that you’re thinking, but it will give you a special emotional attachment to the piece (purely subjectively, in your own mind): attention to it during the day could serve to lift you out of your usual patterns of thought in ways conducive to the Great Work.


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Shiva
(@shiva)
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07/10/2012 5:33 am  
"JohnnyScience" wrote:
"Shiva" wrote:
"JohnnyScience" wrote:
So engraving it with a nickname like that will permanently charge the ring huh?

Not any more than erecting a billboard with your nickname on it, or placing an ad in the local newspaper. There is a difference between a nickname and a Woes of Power.

Can you go into more detail about this Woes of Power & mantra?
By the way, going the pure water route for cleansing, how long should the ring be left in the pure water for in order to be considered cleansed?

WORDS of Power - Not woes as typo-mistako written, even if woes might be more accurate 😀

Words of Power - see Magick in Theory and Practice by Therion. where several words are examined.
Mantras - see http://blazing-diamons.amgelfire.com/054mdef.htm
and
[url= http://blazing-diamond.amgelfire.com72mmant.htm]http://blazing-diamons.amgelfire.com72mmant.htm[/url]

[move:3d0hcdbe]Water Application[/move:3d0hcdbe]

Pour the water over the ring/stone while sounding one AUM (or similar mantra).What? 5 seconds? 11 seconds? Afterward rise with pure, unsalted water - if salted water was used in the first place.

Or submerge for a sililar time. Baptists stand by full immersion. I hold to the pouring principle. Some Feng Shui practitioners use spray bottles.

There is no standard. Just get any (ANY) vibes off (out of) the item before you consecrate it - that requires "invocation" & "holy oil." Again, see Magick in Theory and Practice by Therion, or Blazing Diamond by me.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
07/10/2012 5:34 am  

You bring up some valid points.

But at the same time if you know about/believe in the rituals of cleansing/charging gemstones/amulets/rings etc then you would agree with my strange ideas and not think they were so strange.  I'm actually surprised on a forum such as this thinks that any aspect of "magick" is strange or silly.  There are many aspects to the Occult.  It's just a matter of what you believe in & how "far out there" you are.  But don't act like I'm making this whole concept up as if it has not been practiced for hundreds, if not thousands of years.

Either way, I'm pretty far out there in the shit I believe in - well because we live in a VERY weird & wonderous world/dimension, but can't imagine any further than someone posting about magick on an Aleister Crowley board.  I mean come on, we're all pretty weird.

I will also say I wasn't expecting this ring to actually "charge" up & shoot laser beams out of it, I realize it's purely metaphysical (and perhaps supernatural to some extent)


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
07/10/2012 5:34 am  

In case any were interested, this is the ring being made:

http://www.dougpetersonjewelers.com/product/mens-heavy-oval-lapis-lazuli-ring-in-sterling


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
07/10/2012 5:39 am  

Shiva - those links don't seem to be working?  Can you check & fix them, I'd really like to read what you're linking to.


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Shiva
(@shiva)
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07/10/2012 5:40 am  

Well, the links were mis-spelled, so I edited them ... and they remained in the same mis-spelled state. Oh poo!

Here's the real deal:
Mantras - see http://blazing-diamond.angelfire.com/054mdef.htm (down towards the bottom)
and
[url= http://blazing-diamond.angelfire.com72mmant.htm]http://blazing-diamond.angelfire.com72mmant.htm[/url]


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Azidonis
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 Anonymous
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07/10/2012 5:52 am  

1st one is working, 2nd is still not.

So essentially by going off of your part on Mantra Yoga, since JohnnyScience is what is going to be engraved, the jeweler must chant "JohnnyScience" until the entire engraving is done?  Or perhaps within a phrase such as "inscribed within the atoms of this silver is JohnnyScience" or something along those lines?


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Los
 Los
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07/10/2012 7:18 am  
"JohnnyScience" wrote:
But at the same time if you know about/believe in the rituals of cleansing/charging gemstones/amulets/rings etc then you would agree with my strange ideas and not think they were so strange.

Well, that's precisely my point. You seem to already believe this claim, but why should anyone "believe in rituals of cleansing/charging" to begin with? On what basis do you think that such rituals do anything at all? Sure, some version of rites like these may have been "practiced for hundreds, if not thousands of years," but that's no reason to think that such rituals do anything.

The length of time that a practice is used has nothing to do with whether it actually accomplishes its goal. For example, for hundreds of years, people used to put leeches on the sick in order to "bleed" them, under the theory that the leeches would suck out the "bad blood." We know now that this practice is based on a totally false theory and is actually harmful, but it was still practiced for a long time.

If you're serious about working your will in the world, then it behooves you to have the clearest (and most accurate) mental model of the world possible. If you go around thinking that there is "mysterious energy" that you can use to "charge" pieces of jewelry by chanting over it, you simply do not have the best and most accurate model of the world, and you will find it more difficult to work your will than if you had a clearer map of the territory.

I'm actually surprised on a forum such as this thinks that any aspect of "magick" is strange or silly.

Not everyone who practices magick agrees with supernatural interpretations of it.

I mean come on, we're all pretty weird.

My point was that the things you believe in are not supported by any actual evidence at all. To put it another way, my objection is not that you hold positions that are marginal: my objection is that you hold positions that are not supportable.


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Los
 Los
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07/10/2012 7:27 am  
"JohnnyScience" wrote:
I will also say I wasn't expecting this ring to actually "charge" up & shoot laser beams out of it, I realize it's purely metaphysical (and perhaps supernatural to some extent)

As a serious question, what do you think the practical difference is between a ring that's been metaphysically/supernaturally "charged" and a regular ol' ring?

If there's not some reliably detectable difference between the two, then a "charged" ring is totally indistinguishable from an "uncharged" ring, and for all practical purposes no one has any reason to think that a "charged" ring does anything at all.


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Azidonis
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07/10/2012 4:35 pm  
"Los" wrote:
As a serious question, what do you think the practical difference is between a ring that's been metaphysically/supernaturally "charged" and a regular ol' ring?

It shoots fucking laserbeams, duh!


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Shiva
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07/10/2012 7:06 pm  
"JohnnyScience" wrote:
So essentially by going off of your part on Mantra Yoga, since JohnnyScience is what is going to be engraved, the jeweler must chant "JohnnyScience" until the entire engraving is done?  Or perhaps within a phrase such as "inscribed within the atoms of this silver is JohnnyScience" or something along those lines?

I would opt for "Johnny Science is the One who will follow and expound it All."


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 Anonymous
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09/10/2012 12:48 am  

Oh dear, it seems my proposed techniques for powerfully "charging" a ring, has generated a lot of helpful further discussion.....and look more predictable Los posts, of nit picking questions, that take the thread further off topic....

JS,
I believe this discussion is becoming far too "occult", for this site which is explicitly "not an occult" site.  A Gentleman never breaks his word. So, because I have already bowed out of this thread, I will now only discuss further on this topic, via PM.


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Azidonis
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09/10/2012 12:57 am  

"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law."... "unless Los says otherwise".

::)


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MoogPlayer
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09/10/2012 4:43 am  
"N.O.X" wrote:
Oh dear, it seems my proposed techniques for powerfully "charging" a ring, has generated a lot of helpful further discussion.....and look more predictable Los posts, of nit picking questions, that take the thread further off topic....

JS,
I believe this discussion is becoming far too "occult", for this site which is explicitly "not an occult" site.  A Gentleman never breaks his word. So, because I have already bowed out of this thread, I will now only discuss further on this topic, via PM.

Oh come on! Nit picking?

You mean to tell me that you actually believe in hocus pocus magic powers? I still can't figure out what is so objectionable, so offensive about Los' posts. Anyone who discusses magic and wants to be taken seriously should be asking themselves the same kinds of questions.

I'm sick of all this D&D, harry potter crap. It's almost enough to make me shrug off Thelema for good. It's a damn joke. No wonder society doesn't take Crowley or his work more seriously.

With few exceptions, it seems like the only people who are attracted to Thelema are nuts. I have yet to figure out where a baseless belief in things like spirit-dictations and preternatural beings is distinguishable from the ridiculous crap that every other religion believes in. Is this really what Crowley had in mind for Thelema?


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Los
 Los
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09/10/2012 6:06 am  
"MoogPlayer" wrote:
I still can't figure out what is so objectionable, so offensive about Los' posts. Anyone who discusses magic and wants to be taken seriously should be asking themselves the same kinds of questions.

Absolutely. To dismiss entirely valid questions as "nit picking" is to demonstrate that one isn't serious about the subject in the first place, that one just wants to have all sorts of fantasies without being "bothered" by cumbersome things like facts.

I'm sick of all this D&D, harry potter crap. It's almost enough to make me shrug off Thelema for good. It's a damn joke. No wonder society doesn't take Crowley or his work more seriously.

Indeed. I have, in the course of my day-to-day life, encountered only a handful of people who both (1) have heard of Aleister Crowley *and* (2) are reasonably intelligent and fair-minded people. Without exception, they all have laughed when his name is brought up.

With few exceptions, it seems like the only people who are attracted to Thelema are nuts.

It does seem that way at times, yes. Keep in mind, though, it often seems like the people attracted to any religious movement are nuts, and as long as Thelema is billed as a pseudo-religion, it's going to keep attracting the nuts.

In an essay written by Allen Greenfield a few years back when he resigned from the OTO, he writes that the OTO "tends to attract to its ranks spiritually disaffected people [...] Many of these people are sincere, but they came to OTO alienated from a particular superstition, not from superstitious values per se."

Now, Greenfield is writing specifically about the OTO there, but I think his comments apply very much to Thelema as a whole. Thelema has become a kind of alternative superstition, rather than an alternative *to* superstition. I attribute part of the problem to a lack of skepticism and critical thinking: people get fed up with traditional religions, realize that they're bullshit, but they don't fully grasp why they're bullshit. They still keep the same patterns of magical thinking alive. So when they discover Thelema, they bring their old magical thinking patterns to their "new" religion -- actually to the pseudo-Thelemic religion that they misinterpret from Crowley's texts and are mistaught by people who really know no better than they do.

Part of the problem is that the principles of Thelema are so poorly understood -- especially by the people who take it upon themselves to "teach" it -- that new Thelemites just assume that Thelema fits right into their old superstitious thought patterns.

I have yet to figure out where a baseless belief in things like spirit-dictations and preternatural beings is distinguishable from the ridiculous crap that every other religion believes in.

It's absolutely indistinguishable and is absolute poison. The majority of intelligent people are going to run -- not walk -- away from anything that smells like a cult, like woo, or like the fabrication of a madman.

Is this really what Crowley had in mind for Thelema?

The answer, sadly, is "sort of."

Toward the end of his life, Crowley started putting more weight on the Thelema-as-religion stuff, probably because he wasn't really attracting enough students with the whole Thelema-as-science stuff. The cynic in me wants to say that this was simply a sales-pitch on his part, but we can't discount the very real possibility that Crowley started buying into his own myth, at least to an extent.

Personally, I think it was a mistake for him to put any importance at all on the supposed means of receiving the Book because -- as we can see -- the only thing it accomplishes is attracting people who are at best kooky and at worst downright crazy.

But anyway, here we are. We can't change the past, but we *can* make Thelema a living tradition that exists beyond Crowley. We can point out how Crowley presented Thelema and occultism as separate things; we can point out that -- by Crowley's own description of how his system works -- Thelema is best practiced in the context of skepticism; and we can point out that the proper practice of skepticism inevitably leads to the conclusion that there's insufficient evidence to accept that any of this supernatural stuff is real. Whether Crowley himself practiced skepticism properly -- that is, whether he lived up to the ideals of his own system -- is a different but relevant question.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
09/10/2012 8:21 am  

Los,

Your "entirely valid question" to JS was really rather rude.  No. The obvious, answer to your question, which was so vague to you only because you are so dense and completely unable to see things other than from your purely material point of view, that you are so keen on showing, at every thread where you have an opportunity, how your Thelema, is the real Thelema and here's what Crowley really meant when he wrote.....

Moogplayer,

Its not that Los' posts are "objective" and "offensive" (though he does sometimes don his "I'm holier than thou" and talks down to, or makes fun of the views that some may share that don't match up to what his guru Erwin says the whole of reality is, all else being delusion.)  Its the way in which he interjects himself into nearly every discussion saying the same old shit, like an Evangelical Atheist preacher trying to save us from that ultimate Sin, a relationship with the Spirit. 

Do I practice magick and believe that what I am doing will cause Change in accordance with will?  Why yes, in fact, I do.  When I am engaging in an act of sex magick with my priestess , charging talismans or fetishes with our Elixer, or imbibing lunar Kalas, I am not doing all this only because I have a kink for soaking little drawings in combined male and female cum.  Nor do I imbibe lunar Kalas, only because I particularly enjoy the taste of bloody pussy.  I do happen to believe (because through experimentation I found that it IS effective) that this type of magick, indeed does work, and that not only is sex magick the most fun of all magicks, but is the most effective! 

Perhaps, all of you Erwin clones do not believe in magick, sexual or otherwise, because you were terrible at it, thus your inability to achieve results, convinced you that it was not real.  That all those people who have practiced the magick arte, since the dawn of humankind, never stopping, continuing even from the remotest Aeon, to the present day, have all been doing magick mistakenly believing that it was actually having an effect. 

You seem to be embarrassed of Crowley.  He devoted his entire life to magick and Thelema because he believed in them.  Do you think he was mistaken in his lifelong practice of magick, without which there would be no AL, no Thelema?  You were obviously drawn to AL and its message, Thelema.  "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.  Love is the law, love under will."  The Law is for All, but magick is only for the few who have an aptitude for it.  Throw the baby out with the bath-water, if you are willing to forsake the Law, just because some of its adherents practice an arte, the same arte that the founder of Thelema,  Aleister Crowley, used to receive the foundational text of Thelema: AL, dictated from Aiwass, a praeterhuman intelligence.  Go ahead and shrug off Thelema, for you are not "of us" you are no True King, but a weak Coward willing to abandon the Great Work, because you are embarrassed that its founder, no less, practiced magick, that some of its adherents practice magick, and that you care more about what "society" thinks, than your own Brothers and Sisters.  We are the few and secret that will rule the many and the known. We are Kingly men, who stand shoulder to shoulder with their Brothers, Brothers All, no matter our differences.  Together as One we fight for the Aeon of Horus! 


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
09/10/2012 5:08 pm  
"N.O.X" wrote:
Perhaps, all of you Erwin clones do not believe in magick,

I suppose I ought to be flattered that you label all those who "do not believe in magick" - that is, practically everyone who has an education - as "Erwin clones". I'll take that one as a compliment. Even so, I'm not sure why you feel the need to bring me into your little arguments.

"N.O.X" wrote:
because you were terrible at it, thus your inability to achieve results, convinced you that it was not real.

Ah, that old canard. What, you didn't succeed in turning turds into gold? You obviously weren't doing it right!

Perhaps all you occultists believe in magick, sexual or otherwise, because you were terrible at thinking and stuff, thus your inability to achieve results with thinking and stuff convinced you that it was real.

See how that works?

"N.O.X" wrote:
That all those people who have practiced the magick arte, since the dawn of humankind, never stopping, continuing even from the remotest Aeon, to the present day, have all been doing magick mistakenly believing that it was actually having an effect.

For every one of you occultists who "practice the magick arte" (seriously, now, stop posting when you're high, it makes you sound like a gimp - you may as well have gone the extra millimetre and put "ye olde" in there) there are 20 million Christians who believe in the efficacy of prayer, some of whom would laugh at you for having the temerity to think that Christians would have been praying for so long only "mistakenly believing that it was actually having an effect" and that their god wasn't actually up there listening to them.

That's what happens when you appeal to your paltry personal experiences and your hamfisted "experimentation" - every religious whackjob in the history of time can put in as good of a showing, and demonstrate as solid a grounding for their fatuous beliefs as you can, i.e. diddly squat. It all descends into increasingly outlandish attempts to outdo one another with ever more grandiose and bizarre claims. "D&D, harry potter crap", as another poster recently put it. If you had any actual real evidence, instead of sauce-induced dreams and fantasies, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

"N.O.X" wrote:
We are the few and secret that will rule the many and the known.

I continue to derive a great deal of amusement from this idea that socially awkward teenagers with a penchant for wearing wizard robes and pretending to cast spells are going to "rule the many" one day. You wake me up when that happens, I won't be holding my breath. You'll be fortunate if people even care enough to point at you and laugh.

"N.O.X" wrote:
We are Kingly men,

Sorry, but "Kingly men" don't wank over little drawings, at least not for any purpose beyond personal entertainment. You may be thinking of court jesters, perhaps, but even they have standards.


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Los
 Los
(@los)
Member
Joined: 12 years ago
Posts: 2195
09/10/2012 5:31 pm  

Hi N.O.X..

I see you’ve already violated your “word” to leave this thread. For someone who “really doesn’t want to talk to [me],” you’re spending a fair amount of time doing just that. You may want to re-examine your motivations here.

"N.O.X" wrote:
Your "entirely valid question" to JS was really rather rude.

While “rudeness” is often a subjective value judgment, in this case, you’re talking about a question of clarification made on a public discussion board. Since the purpose of a public discussion board is (surprise!) to have discussions, it seems stretching the bounds of credulity to dismiss a simple question – made without any insults or any negative comments – as “rude.”

Its not that Los' posts are "objective" and "offensive" […]Its the way in which he interjects himself into nearly every discussion saying the same old shit

I do not agree that asking critical questions about the topic specifically under discussion constitutes “saying the same old shit.” In fact, we might define “intelligent conversation” as a process that moves forward only through dialoguing with critical questions.

My positions are relatively consistent, of course, and we would expect my posts to communicate them, but the content of my posts is appropriate for each thread in which my words appear.

I do happen to believe (because through experimentation I found that it IS effective) that this type of magick, indeed does work

Here’s an example of a kind of claim that would benefit from critical analysis.

You’re trying to support a world-shattering claim (“sex magick works!”) judging from a sample size of a handful of operations whose criteria for success may or may not be purely subjective (thus enabling you to count a wide variety of situations as a “hit”).

This is problematic in a lot of ways, and if you could put aside your feelings of being attacked by me (which I’m not doing at all), we could have a productive conversation about this.

Perhaps, all of you Erwin clones do not believe in magick, sexual or otherwise, because you were terrible at it, thus your inability to achieve results, convinced you that it was not real.

I object to the odd phrasing of "Erwin clones," but the facts of the matter are quite the opposite from what you say here. I talked myself into believing that I was, in fact, getting “results” from magick for a while, including a number of startling coincidences. It was only when I sat down and started looking at the matter critically that I realized that I didn’t have sufficient evidence for making that claim.

That all those people who have practiced the magick arte, since the dawn of humankind, never stopping, continuing even from the remotest Aeon, to the present day, have all been doing magick mistakenly believing that it was actually having an effect.

Yes, just like lots of people have been praying to the Muslim god for a long time, even till today, mistakenly believing themselves to be in contact with an entity. Just like lots of people have been praying to the Christian god for a long time, even till today, mistakenly believing themselves to be in contact with an entity (and mistakenly believing their prayers to have “effects,” like praying to St. Christopher to find a lost ring, etc.)

You seem to be under the impression that it’s unlikely for large numbers of people to be mistaken about the claim that they have invisible friends and superpowers. But such mistakes seem to be the rule, not the exception.

You seem to be embarrassed of Crowley.

I’m not really embarrassed by Crowley so much as I am by the people who “follow” him today.

Crowley was who he was, and he believed some goofy things, but many great individuals in the past believed some goofy things. While it’s true that Crowley was a lot more skeptical about this stuff than a person might glean from a careless first reading – and while his system emphasizes the proper application of skepticism to supernatural claims – I’m not at all embarrassed at the idea that some guy who live a hundred years ago had some silly ideas.

It wouldn’t be a problem at all if we had a vibrant tradition of critical-thinking Thelemites who made it clear that modern-day practitioners aren’t just dully repeating outdated and erroneous ideas of a century ago, as if we haven’t learned lots more about the world, as if we don’t have even more reason to think rather strongly that there is no good evidence of anything supernatural.

Me personally, I could care less what “society” thinks of Thelema or Crowley, but when the topic of conversation is the spread of Thelema, we necessarily have to take the reactions of others into account (because the “spread” of anything depends on how others react to it). There appears to be no substantial future for Thelema when it is presented as simply another form of superstition.


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HG
 HG
(@hg)
Member
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 96
09/10/2012 5:39 pm  
"N.O.X" wrote:
We are the few and secret that will rule the many and the known. We are Kingly men, who stand shoulder to shoulder with their Brothers, Brothers All, no matter our differences.  Together as One we fight for the Aeon of Horus! 

"They laughed at me!  The said I was crazy!  But I will show them!  I will show them all!  BWAHAHAHAHAAA!!! "


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MoogPlayer
(@moogplayer)
Member
Joined: 10 years ago
Posts: 86
09/10/2012 6:14 pm  
"Los" wrote:
Absolutely. To dismiss entirely valid questions as "nit picking" is to demonstrate that one isn't serious about the subject in the first place, that one just wants to have all sorts of fantasies without being "bothered" by cumbersome things like facts.

Yes, it is the stuff of fantasy. If I were to believe it, I should see no reason why people don't shoot lightning from their hands, and fly around on magic carpets. According to this same theory, the earth is the center of the universe, and Jesus lives.

Indeed. I have, in the course of my day-to-day life, encountered only a handful of people who both (1) have heard of Aleister Crowley *and* (2) are reasonably intelligent and fair-minded people. Without exception, they all have laughed when his name is brought up.

There have been some really successful and influential people who have been inspired by Crowley. When I think about it though, few of them have been really open about their association or interests in Thelema. I don't think this is just for secrecy's sake. They all knew how potentially embarrassing it would be to be linked to Crowley substantially. As a professional, I can't help but think of this myself.

Thelema has become a kind of alternative superstition, rather than an alternative *to* superstition. I attribute part of the problem to a lack of skepticism and critical thinking: people get fed up with traditional religions, realize that they're bullshit, but they don't fully grasp why they're bullshit. They still keep the same patterns of magical thinking alive. So when they discover Thelema, they bring their old magical thinking patterns to their "new" religion -- actually to the pseudo-Thelemic religion that they misinterpret from Crowley's texts and are mistaught by people who really know no better than they do.

Yes! You've hit the nail right on the head here. I personally never considered Nuit and Hadit to be these independently existing entities that function somehow like all the other gods and goddesses from various religions. In my opinion, this totally takes away from what Thelema is and puts it on the level of "Just another religion". (If that's the case, than why should we even give it any attention or consider it specially?)

What makes Thelema unique is that these concepts don't require a dogmatic belief in anything super natural whatsoever. The concepts themselves may encompass things that are still unknown, but this does not necessarily open the door to fantastical nonsense that is more of the same dogmatic bullshit. I'm a little stoned right now, and its my day off, so I hope I am articulating myself well enough here.

Part of the problem is that the principles of Thelema are so poorly understood -- especially by the people who take it upon themselves to "teach" it -- that new Thelemites just assume that Thelema fits right into their old superstitious thought patterns.

At the very least, let's just say that the main principle is the discovery and fulfillment of the Will. This seems to be what is causing so much controversy with your posts. It's a perfectly legitimate discussion. So to anyone still reading, I also submit the challenge of explaining to us how magical practices so-called, are supposed to help the Will to manifest? Also, how you can tell this is working?


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 2964
09/10/2012 7:22 pm  

Is the issue on this thread about demonstrable science, or the lack thereof?

Where charging is concerned, a "hard science" test would be to take the many measurements of an "uncharged" object, then to charge it by "magical" means. Then to see if any actual change in the object had occurred, using various types of charging we know about. And then, the object would of course have to maintain the charge for some length of time greater than only a few seconds. A few minutes perhaps, or a few hours, could perhaps be considered a sufficient charge.

Of course, consecration might well fall under the realm of attunement, in which case one could measure said charge (were it confirmed) with the individual's own electromagnetic field, and determine the degree of similarity or even polarity (both before and after the charging takes place, of course).

Has anyone on these boards performed either experiment, or anything similar, with measurable data that we can view?


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Los
 Los
(@los)
Member
Joined: 12 years ago
Posts: 2195
09/10/2012 7:53 pm  
"MoogPlayer" wrote:
I personally never considered Nuit and Hadit to be these independently existing entities that function somehow like all the other gods and goddesses from various religions.

From the introduction to Liber AL:

"The elements are Nuit— Space— that is, the total of possibilities of every kind— and Hadit, any point which has experience of these possibilities. (This idea is for literary convenience symbolized by the Egyptian Goddess Nuit, a woman bending over like the Arch of the Night Sky. Hadit is symbolized as a Winged Globe at the heart of Nuit.)"

Emphasis added.

What makes Thelema unique is that these concepts don't require a dogmatic belief in anything super natural whatsoever.

Quite aside from the Liber O quote, we also have Crowley explicitly saying that we should be skeptical of the explanations we attach to our experiences, whether "spiritual" or not.

Crowley writes in Book 4, Part 1 of the experience of Dhyana: "By its light all other events of life are as darkness. Owing to this, people have utterly failed to analyse it or to estimate it. They are accurate enough in saying that, compared with this, all human life is absolutely dross; but they go further, and go wrong. They argue that 'since this is that which transcends the terrestrial, it must be celestial.' One of the tendencies in their minds has been the hope of a heaven such as their parents and teachers have described, or such as they have themselves pictured; and, without the slightest grounds for saying so, they make the assumption 'This is That.'"

Emphasis added.


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Los
 Los
(@los)
Member
Joined: 12 years ago
Posts: 2195
09/10/2012 8:00 pm  
"Azidonis" wrote:
Is the issue on this thread about demonstrable science, or the lack thereof?

Not about science per se -- in the sense of measuring electrical charge. It's about the lack of evidence, which doesn't need to be a strict scientific measurement.

For example, the question I posed to JohnnyScience, a few posts back, was "What do you think the practical difference is between a 'charged' ring and an uncharged one?"

This is a super important question, not some kind of "nit pick." If there's no practical, detectable difference between the two, then the "charged" ring is -- for all intents and purposes -- "uncharged" and no one has any reason to think that it's been "charged" at all.

Here's an experiment that requires no scientific equipment at all. Charge a ring. Then have a neutral third party place the charged ring somewhere on a table with thirty identical-looking uncharged rings (the table will have 31 numbered "slots" into which he will put the rings) The neutral party then goes into another room and writes down which slot the charged ring is in. Nobody else knows -- by sight -- which one is the charged ring except for the neutral third party. The original magician enters the room and selects the charged ring (since he, supposedly, can "detect" which one has a "charge" by some psychic means). We compare this with the neutral party's paper.

Repeat this somewhere around a hundred times.

If this "charging" stuff actually does change the ring in a detectable way -- that the appropriately "receptive" person can pick up on -- then this exercise would be trivially easy to do, and the "charger" would have no problem picking out the correct ring, each and every time. Hell, if he could even get it right 2/3 of the time or 1/2 the time, that would be pretty astounding, and it would indicate that *something* actually is going on...that "charging" the ring -- somehow -- really does cause some kind of change that someone can actually pick up on that lets them locate the charge.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
09/10/2012 8:28 pm  

Erwin,

Ah, its great to see you back on the forums, and back to being the insulting dick we all remember!
   
I was referring to "Erwin" clones, as members of the site such as Los and Moogplayer, who have adopted your materialistic skepticism, and often link to your work. 

"practice the magick arte" (seriously, now, stop posting when you're high, it makes you sound like a gimp - you may as well have gone the extra millimetre and put "ye olde" in there)"

Hey, I was not high when I posted that.  How does typing that, which is a common phrase that has long been used in certain Traditions, make me sound like a gimp?  That particular phrase implies that magick is an art, and I used it purposely for just that reason.  I can type what I will, and if you don't like it, that's fine.  But making false assumptions about me, and name calling is very immature behavior, Erwin. 

I was asked directly, by Moog, if I believed that magick actually works, so what else was I to do than appeal to my own experiences, which you insultingly refer to as "paltry" or "hamfisted" and "sauce-induced dreams and fantasies".  All you've done in your entire reply is fling insults, at me.  Fuck you man, you don't know me, what my practices are, and what evidence I do have of my Workings being succesful or not.  This evidence is in my private magical diaries.

"Socially awkward teenagers with a penchant for wearing wizard robes and pretending to cast spells are going to "rule the many" one day."

This does not accurately describe myself nor any of the other Thelemites that I know.  I find that, most Thelemites are adults, and that young people make up the minority. 

"Sorry, but "Kingly men" don't wank over little drawings, at least not for any purpose beyond personal entertainment."

I was using "We"as a term referring to Thelemites, and "Kingly men" as Thelemite males, in general.  Yes, I'm sure that, to you, sexual magick is just pointless as the other kinds.  If you regard the practices done by its founder, Aleister Crowley, as well as just about everything else in AL, as pure fantasy, why even bother with Thelema, at all?

Los,

Yes, I indeed did come back to the thread as despite my insistence to be left out, as I was still being quoted and asked questions by other members.  I should have just ignored it all, as I had intended.

HG,
Thats not at all what I meant.  Quit being a smart ass and go back and read AL ch. III.

Now, once again another thread has been completely ruined, just as I feared it would.  JS was asking a simple question regarding the consecration of a ring, suggestions were made, even theoretical examples given.  Now it has gone totally off topic, with a lot of negativity and hostility to boot.  So, how about you all move this discussion elsewhere and leave this one to get back on topic, before it ends up getting locked.


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Shiva
(@shiva)
Not a Rajah
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 5208
09/10/2012 8:37 pm  
"Azidonis" wrote:
Has anyone on these boards performed either experiment, or anything similar, with measurable data that we can view?

The best known test for measuring or recording etheric-physical energy is probably Kirlian photography.

There are no devices for measuring astral-emotional frequencies, performing thoughtform analysis, or [especially] divining abstract archetypes. So it's really just a case of what it means to any given individual. It it means something that is unrealistic, they will become embarrased or insane. If it means the universe is calling one's name, they will become famous (but not necessarily rich).


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Los
 Los
(@los)
Member
Joined: 12 years ago
Posts: 2195
09/10/2012 10:05 pm  
"N.O.X" wrote:
Now, once again another thread has been completely ruined, just as I feared it would.

If by "completely ruined" you mean "developed in a direction that N.O.X. cannot adequately address," then yes, it has been "completely ruined" in that sense.

However, when a person starts talking in public about X, and someone else chimes in by asking, "Say, how exactly do you know that X works at all?" that's not exactly what any sensible person would describe as "off topic." Most would describe it as "absolutely on topic" or "a direct development of the topic" or "a deeper investigation of the topic at hand."

So if you're interested in the topic -- as you profess to be -- then you probably have a useful contribution to make to the question of how a person can know that "charging" an item does anything at all.

To respost what I said earlier,

You’re trying to support a world-shattering claim (“sex magick works!”) judging from a sample size of a handful of operations whose criteria for success may or may not be purely subjective (thus enabling you to count a wide variety of situations as a “hit”).

This is problematic in a lot of ways, and if you could put aside your feelings of being attacked by me (which I’m not doing at all), we could have a productive conversation about this.


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MoogPlayer
(@moogplayer)
Member
Joined: 10 years ago
Posts: 86
09/10/2012 10:57 pm  
"N.O.X" wrote:
I was referring to "Erwin" clones, as members of the site such as Los and Moogplayer, who have adopted your materialistic skepticism, and often link to your work.

Adopted? That's just silly. Is it too much for you to accept that I think this way, without having an extensive familiarity with Erwin's writing?

I'm not skeptical about what doesn't exist. I am however certain about what I consistently observe around me. If you want to call that materialism, go ahead. I just want to know: Are you comfortable calling what you do a religion? If so, please be ready to defend why your beliefs are better than a christians, a moslems, etc.

I was asked directly, by Moog, if I believed that magick actually works, so what else was I to do than appeal to my own experiences, which you insultingly refer to as "paltry" or "hamfisted" and "sauce-induced dreams and fantasies".  All you've done in your entire reply is fling insults, at me.  Fuck you man, you don't know me, what my practices are, and what evidence I do have of my Workings being succesful or not.  This evidence is in my private magical diaries.

I asked if you believe in magical powers. Very different question. Your reply was something like:

Do I practice magick and believe that what I am doing will cause Change in accordance with will?  Why yes, in fact, I do. When I am engaging in an act of sex magick with my priestess , charging talismans or fetishes with our Elixer, or imbibing lunar Kalas, I am not doing all this only because I have a kink for soaking little drawings in combined male and female cum.

Crowley defined anything as magical. Even blowing your nose!

Why bother with silly incantations and talismans, when I can find a million other ways to obtain my goals and desires that don't include such questionable methods/results? You do these things out of a silly religious conviction that this causes a real world effect. This is why I asked if you believe in magical powers.

I actually agree with Crowley's definition of "causing change to happen in accordance with the will" ...but you have yet to define the change you are trying to have occur, and whether or not there is a more practical, more reliable, more demonstrable way to do so.

Nor do I imbibe lunar Kalas, only because I particularly enjoy the taste of bloody pussy.

Why would you do something that you don't like doing?? Do you just compulsively participate in such acts because you religiously believe they work? I can't imagine!

I do happen to believe (because through experimentation I found that it IS effective) that this type of magick, indeed does work, and that not only is sex magick the most fun of all magicks, but is the most effective!

You use the word "believe", because you can't say with 100% certainty that it does indeed work. This for me isn't so much the issue. It's why you think it works. What makes you think that making a talisman for money, or some other trivial purpose, is a superior method to honest hard work? What can you obtain with occultism, that you can't obtain from interaction in the real world? Your whole theory is dependent on some kind of magic power that doesn't exist.

Let me tell you about my methods for affecting change in my reality. When I want money, I work. When I want love, I get laid. I don't make talismans or chant spells to bring up the likelihood of success. I just try the usual old methods. If they don't work, than I don't question whether or not it is my will to have, I just keep trying and finding more solutions to the problems I face.

In the past I have thought that chanting and spell casting was a viable solution to problems, but like Los I could never prove to myself beyond doubt that the results were more than coincidence (or that the coincidences happened more/less because of doing magic). I only ever believed it were possible because my mind was tied up in an escapists mentality. It was very transformative to give up these illusions, and realize that there is a real magick being worked on my consciousness when I am doing so. It is empowering. It is liberating.


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 2964
09/10/2012 11:07 pm  
"Los" wrote:
This is a super important question, not some kind of "nit pick." If there's no practical, detectable difference between the two, then the "charged" ring is -- for all intents and purposes -- "uncharged" and no one has any reason to think that it's been "charged" at all.

Yes, but the question is, is there evidence?

For example, this link deals with an experiment concerning the shape of actual water molecules after receiving blessings, chants, etc. Similar tests have been done concerning people saying foul things to water and such.

What this proves is that a change actually occurs. Whether it has something to do with oxygen/carbon dioxide is an indication of how.

So if a ring is charged, and notably so, then 'how' is another question altogether.

"Los" wrote:
Here's an experiment that requires no scientific equipment at all. Charge a ring. Then have a neutral third party place the charged ring somewhere on a table with thirty identical-looking uncharged rings (the table will have 31 numbered "slots" into which he will put the rings) The neutral party then goes into another room and writes down which slot the charged ring is in. Nobody else knows -- by sight -- which one is the charged ring except for the neutral third party. The original magician enters the room and selects the charged ring (since he, supposedly, can "detect" which one has a "charge" by some psychic means). We compare this with the neutral party's paper.

Repeat this somewhere around a hundred times.

Yes, I considered this experiment when I made the initial post. However, there is a degree of clairvoyance (real or fake) that comes along with said test. Clairvoyance or not, a human element in the case of this particular test adds another variable.

We want to test just the rings. If we want to test consecration or attunement, then yes, the human element is valid. So I think there are two test, at any rate: one for the ring itself, and one (or more) with the ring and how it interacts with a human being.

"Los" wrote:
If this "charging" stuff actually does change the ring in a detectable way -- that the appropriately "receptive" person can pick up on -- then this exercise would be trivially easy to do, and the "charger" would have no problem picking out the correct ring, each and every time. Hell, if he could even get it right 2/3 of the time or 1/2 the time, that would be pretty astounding, and it would indicate that *something* actually is going on...that "charging" the ring -- somehow -- really does cause some kind of change that someone can actually pick up on that lets them locate the charge.

That's the thing. We're essentially talking about two types of tests. One test would test only the ring. One test would test the ring in connection with a human being. There are a separate set of controls and variables for each type of test, and that allows for more accurate data.

"Shiva" wrote:
"Azidonis" wrote:
Has anyone on these boards performed either experiment, or anything similar, with measurable data that we can view?

The best known test for measuring or recording etheric-physical energy is probably Kirlian photography.

There are no devices for measuring astral-emotional frequencies, performing thoughtform analysis, or [especially] divining abstract archetypes. So it's really just a case of what it means to any given individual. It it means something that is unrealistic, they will become embarrased or insane. If it means the universe is calling one's name, they will become famous (but not necessarily rich).

Shiva, do you think that any of these would work? I recall somewhere of scientific verification of the human aura through machinery that can pick up electromagnetic frequencies, which of course we are made of.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
09/10/2012 11:41 pm  

Moog,

"Adopted" was a poor choice of words, and I apologize.  I just meant that that your opinions on magick are the same.

"Why would you do something that you don't like doing?? Do you just compulsively participate in such acts because you religiously believe they work? I can't imagine!"

I think you are misreading me, but I understand also that I could have made that statement more clear.  I never said that I didn't like it.  I'd never engage in a sexual activity that I didn't enjoy.  What I meant was was that when I engage in these sexual practices, it is not only because I enjoy them but that, in my experience, they are effective. 

I must go for now as I have errands to run but I'll be back later to elaborate further.


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Los
 Los
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Posts: 2195
10/10/2012 12:05 am  
"Azidonis" wrote:
For example, this link deals with an experiment concerning the shape of actual water molecules after receiving blessings, chants, etc. Similar tests have been done concerning people saying foul things to water and such.

What this proves

Hold on a minute. Before you can move on to "what this proves," you have to check to make sure that "this" is something at all.

As far as I know, there haven't been any double-blind experiments done on this so-called "water memory" stuff. Can you provide any examples of papers published in peer-reviewed journals (that is, in journals where scientists have evaluated the work first before publishing it)?

So if a ring is charged, and notably so

That's the main question. How do we tell that it has been "charged" at all? In what ways is a charged ring practically distinguishable from an uncharged one?

Yes, I considered this experiment when I made the initial post. However, there is a degree of clairvoyance (real or fake) that comes along with said test. Clairvoyance or not, a human element in the case of this particular test adds another variable.

I'm not the one claiming that people can "sense" when items are charged: this sort of claim is routinely made by magical practitioners.

However, if it's not true that a magical practitioner can tell the difference between a charged and uncharged item, then what is the practical difference? I'm asking practically, in everyday terms, what the difference is between a charged and uncharged item and how a person tells. For example, I have rechargable batteries, and I can damn well tell you the practical difference between a charged battery and an uncharged one. What's the practical difference between a charged and uncharged ring?


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Los
 Los
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10/10/2012 12:22 am  
"MoogPlayer" wrote:
Let me tell you about my methods for affecting change in my reality. When I want money, I work. When I want love, I get laid.

Beautiful. It's like a Zen poem.

And technically, the work you do is a form of "incantation." Going out to a bar and bringing a partner home with you is a kind of "causing the spirit to take visible appearance in the triangle," etc., etc.

If you go back and read "magical" instructions as metaphors for any normal, "mundane" activity, they make a lot more sense: magick is simply a matter of applying the appropriate force in the appropriate direction. If your operation fails, then you miscalculated somewhere along the way. The key to all of this is understanding that "causing change" is mind-numbingly easy. It's the "in conformity with Will" part that's the challenge -- and it's also what makes the study of magick, in its broadest sense, relevant to Thelema.

And certainly -- I would trust this doesn't need to be said -- I don't have anything against someone wanking onto a piece of paper, eating bloody pussy, "scrying in the spirit vision," and other such operations done purely for the sake of fetish or entertainment. It's only -- only -- when people start claiming that these activities can cause things to happen in the external world or give them some kind of insight into themselves or knowledge of the universe...it's only then that I take issue with the factual claims that they make.


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Azidonis
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10/10/2012 1:20 am  
"Los" wrote:
"Azidonis" wrote:
For example, this link deals with an experiment concerning the shape of actual water molecules after receiving blessings, chants, etc. Similar tests have been done concerning people saying foul things to water and such.

What this proves

Hold on a minute. Before you can move on to "what this proves," you have to check to make sure that "this" is something at all.

As far as I know, there haven't been any double-blind experiments done on this so-called "water memory" stuff. Can you provide any examples of papers published in peer-reviewed journals (that is, in journals where scientists have evaluated the work first before publishing it)?

On water memory, no. The double-blind tests for it have been "debunked" up to this point. See The Benveniste study.

On the specific thing I mentioned, however, a published peer review of a double-blind experiment can be found here.

As for proving something, the interest is only to ascertain whether or not an actual change takes place.

In the case of this thread, the actual change would be in the ring, in some noticeable way. This is vague, of course. It is reasonable to first learn if the ring changes at all, and then if it does, to determine what changes occurred and why they did so.

"Los" wrote:

So if a ring is charged, and notably so

That's the main question. How do we tell that it has been "charged" at all? In what ways is a charged ring practically distinguishable from an uncharged one?

1. Examine the ring, its chemical make-up, molecular structure, polarization, EMF readings, etc. (ie. virtually everything we can know about the ring using modern instruments)
2. Do test.
3. Examine ring.
4. Record data.
5. Analyze data.

"Los" wrote:

Yes, I considered this experiment when I made the initial post. However, there is a degree of clairvoyance (real or fake) that comes along with said test. Clairvoyance or not, a human element in the case of this particular test adds another variable.

I'm not the one claiming that people can "sense" when items are charged: this sort of claim is routinely made by magical practitioners.

I'm saying that the particular test you described involves more variables than the simple test of "did this prayer make a noticeable change to that ring". So if we were going to do the test, we would want the least amount of variables possible, and having someone try and pick the ring out of 30 others is an added variable. However, having them pick would make for a good test after the initial test had accrued some data.

"Los" wrote:
However, if it's not true that a magical practitioner can tell the difference between a charged and uncharged item, then what is the practical difference? I'm asking practically, in everyday terms, what the difference is between a charged and uncharged item and how a person tells. For example, I have rechargable batteries, and I can damn well tell you the practical difference between a charged battery and an uncharged one. What's the practical difference between a charged and uncharged ring?

Have you ever eaten a real (as in, one made 'by the book') Cake of Light?


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Los
 Los
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10/10/2012 1:48 am  
"Azidonis" wrote:
On the specific thing I mentioned, however, a published peer review of a double-blind experiment can be found here.

Seriously? "Explore: The Journal of Science and Healing"? An experiment conducted by a dude with a degree from the rough equivalent of a cracker jack box? How about a cutting-edge article in "The Wacko Journal of Praying over Water"?

When I said a "peer-reviewed journal," I obviously meant a legitimate one. I have to run for the moment, but I'll be back later to explain the peer-review process and how to distinguish a legitimate journal from woo.


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