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Crowley: SatGuru, Inspired Speaker or Gnostic Philosopher?  

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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
06/11/2011 11:50 pm  

Have often wondered, after having spent some time in Thelemic body in the Cali Bay Area, which was one of if not the oldest functioning OTO Lodges -

Do people in general find that AC exudes the qualities of SatGuru, or is he more seen as a "teacher" or simply an inspired philosopher?

Obviously, AC considered himself Guru and his students Chelas, which is fundamentally clear by his own diaries. My question stems from having served in Lodge, Working Public Mass and other less visible roles for years and noting - AC has literally no devotees ???

Now, there are numerous appreciation societies, bibliographical institutions and such but there seems to be little or no indication of actual lasting dedicated devotees, but more fans of Thelema and members of Thelemic orgs, etc. which more or less function as mundane fan base, social fraternity, etc.

There also seems to be a huge drop-off in the amount of attention (ie help/money/sacrifice) that members of Thelemic bodies tend to extend, which is also in stark contrast to the level of manifestation found amassed by devotees of any number of spiritual masters, not to mention mundane fraternal orgs, etc.

Boiling it down to an essential oil - if AC was a spiritual Master, why no dedicated buildings/devotees/teachers in the Ashram style of living (think Cefalu)?

I realize that there may be actual guru-bhakti devotees but in years of O.T.O., G-Mass and beyond, after having served and met literally hundreds and thousands of "Thelemites" I simply have never seen one, which makes me wonder at the actual level of energized enthusiasm past general positive feelings people have toward the "Master".

Just thought Id get some feedback from people who seem very engaged in the book & media culture surrounding AC's work.

pax


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
07/11/2011 12:50 am  

on second thought...i can see that most people wouldn't touch this with a 555 ft pole.

Admin please delete or not 🙂

thx


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 2964
07/11/2011 3:07 am  

The subject begs the old question, "What is a Thelemite?"

On the follower thing, I think many would agree that Crowley's goal, guru or not, was never to create "followers" in the term of sheep. Followers as in, "those who come after" sure, but it certainly wasn't his goal to propagate Crowleyanity.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
07/11/2011 6:01 am  

I think part of your question: 'why no dedicated buildings/devotees/teachers in the Ashram style of living?' has to do with the current trend of people turning away from anything that bears even faint resemblance to Christianity. People are disengaging from worship in church, and after they've done that, they generally don't want to sign up to another kind of church, or another priest teaching from the pulpit, etc. In short - I believe it's part of an unconscious backlash. People don't really know the 'ashram style of living' but they do know 'the Church' and I don't think we're going to see Thelemites pouring much 'attention' into anything that might grow to resemble what they've already rejected wholesale. The faintest whiff of that puts peoples backs up.

Actually, the Catholic church may have done us a favour by viciously repressing the so called 'Cathar Heresy', - not because of it's ideology but in it's transmission - i.e. - no churches and wandering 'good men' that travel around speaking the word. As that never took off and people don't identify it with Christianity then it's a model that's acceptable in the west and viewed as the more enlightened approach. I don't think it's the matter that Thelemites are less willing to offer fraternal aid, or are any less generous and/or compassionate now; I just think that they will only do so under the terms that most suit them.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
07/11/2011 6:36 pm  
"Azidonis" wrote:
The subject begs the old question, "What is a Thelemite?"

On the follower thing, I think many would agree that Crowley's goal, guru or not, was never to create "followers" in the term of sheep. Followers as in, "those who come after" sure, but it certainly wasn't his goal to propagate Crowleyanity.

Yes, there is the ever-lingering question of criteria when it comes to "what or who is a Thelemite?" One's personal relationship with Aleister Crowley certainly does not answer the question, although he (and seemingly Liber AL) thought that the answer ought to include that, with its "my Prophet," etc. I know Thelemites who hardly know who Crowley was, and it seems clearly irrelevant to their true Will to know that. One who believes and/or says that he or she knows and is doing their true Will does not quite work either, especially when that person clearly seems to be lacking in self-awareness and is subject to distraction and delusion.

It's quite a conundrum, because you have to take a self-proclaiming Thelemite at their word, even despite apparent evidence to the contrary in their lives as you observe them over time. Liber AL sort of covers this, as well, with its 'beggar might be king,' etc. In the end, we must mind our own business and leave others to do the same. It is fine to instruct others, to 'give them the Law,' if we Will, but there is no real test afterward.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
07/11/2011 8:53 pm  

I dunno about this either Camlion. I mean - if Aleister Crowley and all his S.W. and Lieutenants, Agape Lodge, etc. had only 'minded their own business', instead of doing what they thought was in the best interests of Thelema, then would we be talking about Thelema, now?

Infact - could the Law have even come about if Aiwass had decided to mind his own business?

Does the universe mind it's own business? Well - yes, in the sense that it *minds* it.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
07/11/2011 9:02 pm  
"Dar" wrote:
I dunno about this either Camlion. I mean - if Aleister Crowley and all his S.W. and Lieutenants, Agape Lodge, etc. had only 'minded their own business', instead of doing what they thought was in the best interests of Thelema, then would we be talking about Thelema, now?

Infact - could the Law have even come about if Aiwass had decided to mind his own business?

Does the universe mind it's own business? Well - yes, in the sense that it *minds* it.

It is fine to instruct others, to 'give them the Law,' if we Will, but there is no real test afterward.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
07/11/2011 9:08 pm  
"Camlion" wrote:
"Dar" wrote:
I dunno about this either Camlion. I mean - if Aleister Crowley and all his S.W. and Lieutenants, Agape Lodge, etc. had only 'minded their own business', instead of doing what they thought was in the best interests of Thelema, then would we be talking about Thelema, now?

Infact - could the Law have even come about if Aiwass had decided to mind his own business?

Does the universe mind it's own business? Well - yes, in the sense that it *minds* it.

It is fine to instruct others, to 'give them the Law,' if we Will, but there is no real test afterward.

Accepted - but do you accept that when we 'give them the Law' - we're NOT (just) minding our own business?


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
07/11/2011 9:34 pm  
"Dar" wrote:
"Camlion" wrote:
"Dar" wrote:
I dunno about this either Camlion. I mean - if Aleister Crowley and all his S.W. and Lieutenants, Agape Lodge, etc. had only 'minded their own business', instead of doing what they thought was in the best interests of Thelema, then would we be talking about Thelema, now?

Infact - could the Law have even come about if Aiwass had decided to mind his own business?

Does the universe mind it's own business? Well - yes, in the sense that it *minds* it.

It is fine to instruct others, to 'give them the Law,' if we Will, but there is no real test afterward.

Accepted - but do you accept that when we 'give them the Law' - we're NOT (just) minding our own business?

"[ ] if we Will,[ ]"


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mika
 mika
(@mika)
Member
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 360
07/11/2011 9:44 pm  
"M_Rakoczy" wrote:
My question stems from having served in Lodge, Working Public Mass and other less visible roles for years and noting - AC has literally no devotees ???

The nature of Thelema precludes devotees.

Following a guru (in the traditional sense - completely and without question) isn't only discouraged by Crowley, it directly contradicts both the theory and practice of Crowley's version of magick, which requires throwing off all others' expectations and dogma and figuring out for oneself what constitutes appropriate action.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
07/11/2011 9:56 pm  
"Camlion" wrote:
"Dar" wrote:
"Camlion" wrote:
"Dar" wrote:
I dunno about this either Camlion. I mean - if Aleister Crowley and all his S.W. and Lieutenants, Agape Lodge, etc. had only 'minded their own business', instead of doing what they thought was in the best interests of Thelema, then would we be talking about Thelema, now?

Infact - could the Law have even come about if Aiwass had decided to mind his own business?

Does the universe mind it's own business? Well - yes, in the sense that it *minds* it.

It is fine to instruct others, to 'give them the Law,' if we Will, but there is no real test afterward.

Accepted - but do you accept that when we 'give them the Law' - we're NOT (just) minding our own business?

"[ ] if we Will,[ ]"

So? It can be your Will to NOT (Just) mind your own business, can't it?


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
07/11/2011 10:01 pm  
"Dar" wrote:
"Camlion" wrote:
"Dar" wrote:
"Camlion" wrote:
"Dar" wrote:
I dunno about this either Camlion. I mean - if Aleister Crowley and all his S.W. and Lieutenants, Agape Lodge, etc. had only 'minded their own business', instead of doing what they thought was in the best interests of Thelema, then would we be talking about Thelema, now?

Infact - could the Law have even come about if Aiwass had decided to mind his own business?

Does the universe mind it's own business? Well - yes, in the sense that it *minds* it.

It is fine to instruct others, to 'give them the Law,' if we Will, but there is no real test afterward.

Accepted - but do you accept that when we 'give them the Law' - we're NOT (just) minding our own business?

"[ ] if we Will,[ ]"

So? It can be your Will to NOT (Just) mind your own business, can't it?

Of course, but if it were your Will then it WOULD be your business.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
07/11/2011 10:12 pm  
"Camlion" wrote:
"Dar" wrote:
"Camlion" wrote:
"Dar" wrote:
"Camlion" wrote:
"Dar" wrote:
I dunno about this either Camlion. I mean - if Aleister Crowley and all his S.W. and Lieutenants, Agape Lodge, etc. had only 'minded their own business', instead of doing what they thought was in the best interests of Thelema, then would we be talking about Thelema, now?

Infact - could the Law have even come about if Aiwass had decided to mind his own business?

Does the universe mind it's own business? Well - yes, in the sense that it *minds* it.

It is fine to instruct others, to 'give them the Law,' if we Will, but there is no real test afterward.

Accepted - but do you accept that when we 'give them the Law' - we're NOT (just) minding our own business?

"[ ] if we Will,[ ]"

So? It can be your Will to NOT (Just) mind your own business, can't it?

Of course, but if it were your Will then it WOULD be your business.

Well - if you're going to the bother of giving someone the heads up about the law... I bloody well hope it was both your Will and your business! 😀 😀 😀

Can you imagine hearing about it for the first time from someone who's a closet Christian or who's Will isn't aligned with seeing Thelema take root upon the earth?

It'd be like... never having tasted bread... and being given a pop tart. Forgettable and off-putting!

*yawn* ... that's not the best example. Sorry. But I'm sure you hear me.


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