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Does "sex magick" work?  

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ignant666
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25/04/2019 6:12 pm  

Does "sex magick" work, in the sense of producing actual material world outcomes, such as money?

Note that i refer to AC/OTO-style "sex magick", and particularly what the OTO called (or "calls", if one believes any such organization to currently exist) "IX working", and NOT tantra, karezza, or any other form of sexual activity done for magick/mystical purposes. The VIII "magical masturbation" and XI man-to-man versions are essentially identical to the IX method with obvious adjustments.

By "AC/OTO-style 'sex magick'" or "IX working", i mean:

a) a male magician having vaginal intercourse with a female (who may not be aware that an act of magick is going on)
b) while thinking/chanting about a desired outcome in the material world (eg, money, good health, or the love of a particular person (typically not the person one is fucking)), followed by
c) consuming the combined sexual fluids after orgasm.

Anyone who reads AC's sex magick diaries cannot fail to notice that this method virtually always fails its master and proclaimer, and the few "successes" can best be attributed to wishful thinking/special pleading. My results have not been any better.

Despite the clear evidence this method is a dud, AC persists- one might almost get the sense he was what is now called a "sex addict", cloaking his neurotic need for coupling devoid of intimacy in spiritual gobbledygook ("gobble de [the] gook" being an old slang term (that has come to mean "nonsense") for "c" above).

Does this ever work, in any sense not rooted in self-delusion?


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runelogix
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26/04/2019 4:00 am  

My good man, the formula for doing this properly has been fully revealed in Book 4, Moonchild, Thoth, Liber 333, and Liber 220. However, were you to try IX acts with the mere methods you described above without the proper instructions in all the preceding works and or consecrated Priestess, and one is un-initiated in the 93 current, it will not work. The whole point of OTO initiations is to make you capable of performing such magick under will and for the right reasons. I largely suspect that one or a multitude issues with technique related to the above texts and astrological reasons being detrimental to your efforts. As always document your results in a record so as to narrow down the source of those difficulties. Also note there is a virtue in the perfection of the the VIII degree before the IX. If this continues to fail despite all correct temple furnishings and astrological influences, consult your favorite Goetic daemon for advice.


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kidneyhawk
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26/04/2019 4:46 am  

Runelogix-

"I largely suspect that one or a multitude issues with technique related to the above texts and astrological reasons being detrimental to your efforts."

May I respectfully ask what you see as having been detrimental to the efforts of one Aleister Crowley, per Ignant's post?


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christibrany
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26/04/2019 5:09 am  

I have had some luck with VIII workings in regards to money and also meeting people and finding jobs (usually within 2 weeks is the max). I use the sigil/AO Spare method but haven't used it in awhile, as I have all I want in my life for a few years now. Pretty much.

I get the 'feeling' that VIII may be easier/more effective than IX bc you are not 'using' another person and their energy even if they are aware, so there is less energy to shift around, so it's simpler/more effective.

Like Ignant said this may all be 'coincidence' or wishful thinking but the fact that mine always worked when I did them tends to at least support the theory that it at least psychologically invests you in striving towards those goals more wholeheartedly.


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Shiva
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26/04/2019 6:48 am  

Ig: Does “sex magick” work, in the sense of producing actual material world outcomes, such as money?

My good man, Dr. Goodman, yes it works. That is my belief. Beliefs are not admissible, but we all have our delusions.

Now I have never done this sort of thing for money. Mildred Burlingame said they (the Burlingame family) were up against the wall with bills, so they gave in and did the rite. The next day she picked up an envelope in front of their home. It contained the amount needed to scrape by.

This is heresy, um no, hearsay, and I was not there to confirm the veracity of her statement..

AC suggested we would be lucky if our magical efforts got as high as 50%. He was known for using IX* for money. He described exactly how to proceed, giving gold as an example. He also used Abramelin talismans for money. That's why he was so wealthy in the latter years of his life.

I can only think of one time I used the rite for a specific, external purpose. It is recounted in Inside Solar Lodge - Behind the Veil. It was my instruction, I swear it to be so. She told me to take action against the Inquisition. She gave me the Abramelin Book of Talismans and a voluntary girl. "She" was the guru.

The inquisition was not only made to be confused and dispersed, but some of their ringleaders were dismissed or a promotion was waylayed. There are reasons why this could have happened, which can be outlined on paper or chalk/marker board, and they were simple, physical plane, cause-and-effect maneuvers. The maneuvers were considered impossible at the time of the rite. The LINK is very important. We sent a squad into Blythe with (my) instructions to gather the business cards of all opponents. Did it work? Was confusion galore spread about us, our "connections" with mass murderers? Was endless mystery and confusion spread about Solar the Lodge, in general? Oh yeah! It took a year or two. Do you remember reading about that (IX* operation) in my book?

Note: Our backs were up against the hard place. This might be a factor.

Did I cause this? Who knows. Go figure.

Now you can take all the grades from I to VIII, and the IXth sums them up nicely. Then you can set IX aside and just use simple talismans scribbled on the back of Walmart receipts. Then one can move on to "just project the thoughtform." No paper, no parchment or vellum, no pen or wand or sword. No intimate congress. No fluids (either pure or mixed with a little HIV (or heaven knows what else these days).

For some reason, I have made a life-long habit of telling other people about this. So what? Well, on many occasions I told them before I diddled, doodled, or projected.

This means, counselor, er Judge, um, Arbitrator, that I have witnesses (before and after any such action). If you were bold enough to get on a train and come here, you could interview two long-term witnesses, and take their Dispositions or Afterdavid's. Yes, you may bring a Court Sterno-grapher.

(I was a Notary Pubic for years. I know all the leegal terms).

On a more serious note (there may be plural notes), the question could be made even broader: Does Magic (primitive, black, high, ceremonial) work at all to influence the outer realm, which is very solid and unyielding when we try to push or pull with our armorarium [sic?]?

Anyone skilled enough to make the IX* work externally can certainly try with other spells. It's a matter of reaching a certain part of the brain, and I haven't the slightest idea where it is, but it's not anatomy or physiology; it's consciousness. That is, where are you when you pull the trigger? "Where" in terms of consciousness? Personally, I can't pull a single trick unless I am frustrated (by trying the usual, legal routes), or irritated (by the elements). Or some such form of despair.

This is all "lesser siddhi" stuff. We need not debate the color of Nemo's hands, nor speak of samadhi or cosmic consciousness, because it's not a matter of Binah. One can be one's separate self, but somehow be properly tuned in, and some very interesting things can happen.

Do those Abramelin (and other types) talismans work. I have yet to make use of "To win the affection of a Judge" without winning. Would I have won otherwise? I cannot answer that, not because of the fifth, not because of oaths, but because I am Stoopid.

You may think I am stoopid, but you should have seen my grandfather - he walked around all bent over.

I would say that people are pretty stoopid if they get the instruments, or the links, or the girl, if all they want is money or possessions. The idea is that all available energy is to be stored up in order to have a chat with the HGA, and after that, to straighten out one's "accidents" of karma, and after that to do the Will of Atma, the Universal Self, who is called Atma by men (and women), but has no name. Oh, now we're up to Nemo. Come back!

Aleister had his Abra talisman "For a great fortune" under his pillow (or in his pocket - depending on which tale you reference). I don't remember the part about him having wealth around him at the time (of his death).

He also touted the IX* as the synthesis of all esoteric symbols, the elixir of life - said to cure the sick and promote immortality. The Taoists tried that. We can assign them credit for catching on to a few tricks that might promote longevity, but not immortality.

This IX* medicine is probably the reason everyone was so healthy at Cefalu. It's probably why years of poverty fell upon AC, et al, and why he was always so free of physical disorders.

I have flipped nd flopped around, voicing, er, typing both sides of the question. I'm absolutely certain that I answered to the fullest extent, and now you know the truth of the matter.


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runelogix
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26/04/2019 6:59 am  

kidneyhawk: "May I respectfully ask what you see as having been detrimental to the efforts of one Aleister Crowley, per Ignant’s post?"

You can ask me whatever you want but perhaps it would be better if you asked AC himself about the matter.


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elitemachinery
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26/04/2019 7:16 am  

According to Steve Tyler it does work. But it might help that he was writing lyrics for a popular rock band rather than poetry for an obscure self-published volume. In other words, magick can and does work, but if you want to win the lottery, it's usually smart to at least buy a ticket.

https://www.vanityfair.com/culture/2011/05/top-ten-revelations-in-steven-tylers-memoir-does-the-noise-in-my-head-bother-you

3. He practiced Sex Magick.

If early Aerosmith songs like “Mama Kin” make you all tingly (as they should), it may be thanks to the Great Beast himself, Mr. Aleister Crowley. “I’ve practiced Crowley Magick so I know it works,” Tyler writes of channeling the power of the mutual orgasm to achieve wider goals. “I’m not saying that every girl I slept with came at the same time or that I asked her to pray for the same thing I was praying for; namely that Aerosmith would become the greatest American band.”


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Michael Staley
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26/04/2019 11:10 am  

@runelogix

You can ask me whatever you want but perhaps it would be better if you asked AC himself about the matter.

That's a poor effort. Surely you can be more dismissive that this?

Sice Crowley has been dead for a while, there might be problems in asking him anything.


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ignant666
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26/04/2019 1:49 pm  

Thank you all for the replies.

I mentioned my own efforts in this area doing no better than the Prophet's.

Regardless of my own defects in this area (not having a consecrated priestess, appropriate temple furnishings, and necessary OTO initiations have been mentioned), the important point i think is that CROWLEY'S EFFORTS AT SEX MAGICK INEVITABLY FAILED. Again, he kept a record; read it.

runelogix might point out that this is because AC often did his IX work with whores, and his XI with men met in Turkish baths (and so lack consecrated cucurbits, and other bits), in places (alleys and the aforementioned Turkish baths, eg) wholly devoid of silken hangings and eternal lamps and whatnot, and of course famously discovered the OTO IX technique on his own (and was then offered initiation after publishing the method openly), and thus lacked any OTO initiations or training for the earlier parts (his success rate did not improve after joining OTO).

Shiva raises an important point: does any "low magick" actually work? My experience is (perhaps surprisingly to some) "Yes, pretty often".

For example, my Brazilian mother-in-law once, when i complained that it was going to rain steadily all night according to the forecast, and so no one would show up a show i was playing that night, said "We can do the thing with the egg and some salt that you do to make it stop raining at the beach". She did so (it involved making a cross with salt on the windowsill, and putting the egg on it while mumbling something), and the rain stopped. Clearly a small sample set but a gratifying outcome. She and my wife regularly do this sort of thing.

So i am not disputing that various forms of low magick can produce desired results. But AC's sex magick track record is dismal, and yet he claims it is the most effective method of magick available. As Shiva points out, his Abramelin talisman track record is also not impressive (he says this is another method that cannot fail, but it does, over and over).

Were we to, somewhat along the lines runelogix disingenuously suggests, consult not AC but VVVVV, would we learn that low magick fails when it is in pursuit of things one wants (such as money, health, and elusive women) but that are contrary to one's Will?

This would of course provide an internally consistent answer that allows the belief in the efficacy of sex magick to persist after review of Crowley's sex magick diaries' catalog of failure after failure , but smacks of special pleading, especially when one has been in touch with one's HGA for decades (and thus knowing one's Will).

Perhaps yet another example of "Do as I say, not as i do" from The Demon Crowley?


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runelogix
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26/04/2019 3:26 pm  

That’s a poor effort. Surely you can be more dismissive that this?

I would like to be more dismissive but the original question is so lacking in intelligence due to the fact you mention I couldn't think of a better retort at the time. If you think it is so worthy a topic of consideration please share with us your opinion on why AC's sex magick failed since I have other things I would rather be doing with my time.


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runelogix
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26/04/2019 3:36 pm  

runelogix might point out that this is because AC often did his IX work with whores, and his XI with men met in Turkish baths (and so lack consecrated cucurbits, and other bits), in places (alleys and the aforementioned Turkish baths, eg) wholly devoid of silken hangings and eternal lamps and whatnot, and of course famously discovered the OTO IX technique on his own (and was then offered initiation after publishing the method openly), and thus lacked any OTO initiations or training for the earlier parts (his success rate did not improve after joining OTO).

Sorry but as usual this is a misinterpretation of what I said. To not have an initiated Priestess as a willing and knowing participant in the rite is a major flaw of that style of working. Crowley however was an experimenter and considered himself a scientist of sorts and thus was willing to fail a lot (like Edison and his light bulb) in order to make progress. OTO training, which he learned later in life, is designed to making this approach to tantric sex magick efficacious. Furthermore, as revealed in Moonchild, the time and place of the rite is essential. Liber 220 v. 57 "Invoke me under the stars!" is not just poetic it is an instruction. As usual it multiple layers of meaning: not just under the star (Priestess on top, also think about what a SCARLET Woman really means, the blood flow has to be in effect), and physical stars aka the body of Nuit, the sky above your head, and the PLACE and TIMING as hinted at in Moonchild with detailed astrological work. If all of this is not satisfied it is not IX. It could be sex, it could be intended to be evocative, but it is lacking the instructions AC and McMurty left to us. It will not work just willy nilly in your camper with a box full of magnums and viagra (unless it does haha).


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ignant666
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26/04/2019 3:37 pm  

runelogix: A poor showing at best so far. Your attempt at a clever response is thoroughly demolished in my post immediately above yours, isn't it?

Do please show us the results of your superior intelligence, o wise one.

Also, you imply that you are an OTO IX initiate, but do not outright state this. Is this actually so? The Caliphornian copyright-holders, or some other claimant revival?

I wonder how you (or others) might explain how it is that these selfsame Caliphornian folks, holders of the SECRET of the MOST POWERFULEST MAGICK OF ALL, are doing so poorly at promulgation, making money, advancing their order to worldly fame glory and power (per every OTO document by AC), publishing Crowley books (after all, the incumbent OHO was chosen for his skill as an editor), or really anything at all?


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ignant666
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26/04/2019 3:47 pm  

It will not work just willy nilly in your camper with a box full of magnums and viagra.

runelogix: AC performed IX and XI workings literally every day for long periods, sometimes several times in one day, so i don't think astrology can be too important here, Similarly, the record is clear that he did so in every imaginable place, and with every available combination of drugs.

Campers, and viagra, were not available to AC but i think it is silly to say he would not have gotten busy in camper while taking Holy Erection Medicine. If by magnums you refer to a brand of large condoms, you really don't get it do you? If you mean champagne, this was a favorite pre-working stimulant of the Prophet.

Now that you have made very clear that you have literally no idea what is being discussed here, since we know you have never read AC's sex magick diaries, or any of the many biographical works which quote extensively from them, why not just keep silent, and avoid further displaying your ignorance?


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runelogix
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26/04/2019 3:49 pm  

AC performed IX and XI workings literally every day for long periods, sometimes several times in one day, so i don’t think astrology can be too important here, Similarly, the record is clear that he did so in every imaginable place, and with every available combination of drugs.

And that is exactly where you are wrong. Due to your rude replies I will leave you to your failures in peace.

Also, you imply that you are an OTO IX initiate, but do not outright state this. Is this actually so? The Caliphornian copyright-holders, or some other claimant revival?

Your obsession with the OTO is evidence of spiritual damage, I hope you get help soon.

Noting I forgot to mention Liber 15 in my above list of sources. May the Saints forgive me.


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ignant666
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26/04/2019 4:14 pm  

runelogix: You have some nerve characterizing others as "rude".

You seem to imagine the topic here is my indifferent results with sex magick (30 years ago); you mention my "failures".

But the topic is actually: Why did AC clearly believe that sex magick worked, when he kept such a detailed record of how it failed him over and over again for decades?

If you will now, as you say you will, absent yourself from this discussion, i think it would be to the advantage of all, especially given the mixture of pompousness, ignorance, and rudeness in your replies so far.

Damaged goods, send me back,

Ig


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Shiva
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26/04/2019 8:25 pm  

em: but if you want to win the lottery, it’s usually smart to at least buy a ticket.

Yes, one must create the LINK so that the Lords of Karma can get the cash to you.

Ig: CROWLEY’S EFFORTS AT SEX MAGICK INEVITABLY FAILED. Again, he kept a record; read it.

Correct. I read it. Quite simply put, if one is using this Magick for internal ascension up the inner Tree, then that fits in with white magic. If one does it to change/alter/manipulate matter, it tends toward black magic. If one does it to personally benefit at the (known & direct) expense of others, it is black magic.

Ig: runelogix might point out that this is because AC often did his IX work with whores, and his XI with men met in Turkish baths (and so lack consecrated cucurbits, and other bits)

Consecration is not required. It's the inherent attributes of the partner that count. In particular, there is a certain type of woman, magnetic, powerfully attractive. They are able to easily shift into other dimensions. A touch of acid will let them fully manifest as Babalon or Nuit in about ten minutes. They do not make good, steady girlfriends or wives; they are subject to whimsy, and every one I have known has moved on to a very bad scenario. They suffer from divorce and bad, physiocal things happen to them. I have known a few. The knowing was fantastic and productive. Then they lost their mind or their direction.

On the other hand, one could take a dump of a dumpling, who is not loosely connected at all, and consecrate her ... but the result will not be fantastic or productive. You get what comes into your life, and may the guardians make sure you don't get permanently hooked up with a magnetic partner. Anyone may re-read this, substituting him for her, or other combinations.

Ig: rain

Tell me about it. Interview my witnesses. Enough said.

Ig: AC’s sex magick track record is dismal, and yet he claims it is the most effective method of magick available.

I agree with the first part, and disagree with the second.

Ig: But the topic is actually: Why did AC clearly believe that sex magick worked, when he kept such a detailed record of how it failed him over and over again for decades?

Well, look, if you want to attract followers, who can pay dues and grant unrepayable loans, you need to keep pushing the sublime and most secret at the heart of historic masonry. I can't tell you anything about it because I'm under obligation of secrecy (never mind those pesky Golden Dawn Oaths, they don't count), but I will tell you it involves sex with the partner of your choice (priest, priestess, goat).

In case you hadn't noticed, AC was obsessed with sex. He converted the Ancient Mysteries into a paradigm centered on the sexual act. He explained in as the attraction of hydrogen to oxygen (Book of Thoth), but in daily life and magical ritual, it was orgasm as a form of (brief) samadhi. The thoughtform released at the "surrender of self" point is supposed to then go out and manifest, ASSUMING ONE HAS A PROPER LINK.

AC's entire message revolves around Thelema (finding/doing one's Will), with a prerequisite of chatting with an Angel, with a prerequisite of gaining control over assorted, "lower" faculties (the body, the emotions, the mind ... little things like that.

Then a shift takes place. He (literally) grabs the OTO; A.'.A.'. work starts to fade in favor of sex and dues-paying acolytes. He saw the OTO as the vehicle for spreading Thelema (his words, paraphrased), and the OTO revolved around sex. No wonder there were hard times for all, what with living in a Christian-paradigmed society where sex-repression is their highest virtue.

Ig: Damaged goods, send me back

Oh, you'll get back alright ... sooner or later. The ladder of initiation is known as the Path of Return. Return to what? Your "true nature," which is found somewhere above sex and duality.


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ignant666
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26/04/2019 8:48 pm  

I am certainly not disputing the utility of sex in blowing the mind out, or other spiritual/occult/mystical purposes that can be loosely grouped under the heading "high magick"; i tried to make that clear.

What i am asking about is both the utility of sex magick as a form of "low magick", and why others think AC continued to believe in (or at least enthusiastically sell) the efficacy of this method that had failed him so often.

I am defining "low magick" as sex magick workings to get, eg, money, better health, the love of a beautiful woman, or for the death of that beautiful woman's husband.

I just finished Churton's Crowley In America- these four desires are the subjects of at-least-daily VIII/IX/XI workings for most of the five years from 1914-19. Results: He got little money, poor to middling health, the occasional bit of sex from said beauty (though she left AC for a man with an income), and her husband lived (not that she much cared).


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christibrany
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26/04/2019 11:00 pm  

Siva says 'if one is using this Magick for internal ascension up the inner Tree, then that fits in with white magic. If one does it to change/alter/manipulate matter, it tends toward black magic. If one does it to personally benefit at the (known & direct) expense of others, it is black magic.'

I guess that means I was/am a black magician since I did it for a new job, gf/wife and some money. I never thought I would see the day.

But hey!

Well ....Can't I at least be a grey magician since I am ascending also?

I mean, we all wear different robes at different times...

In regards to the dues-money-power-social ladder-OTO thing this is why I prefer the A.:.A.:.! But that's another topic.


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ignant666
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26/04/2019 11:51 pm  

If you got and kept any of "new job, gf/wife and some money", you are doing better than AC at low magick, of whatever shade of Black/Grey/White.

Remember, "NEMO Makes Black Hands White"! Ask for it by name at your local ashram, dojo, lodge, hobo jungle, public library, or brothel!

Cheap at twice the price- NO HAGGLING!


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Shiva
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27/04/2019 12:22 am  

cs: I guess that means I was/am a black magician since I did it for a new job, gf/wife and some money. I never thought I would see the day.

Everyone eventually sees the day. We have all exercised a bit of lower magic. I did it TWICE to get a dog. Both dogs are here with me now this very minute.

The entire Outer Order (of any lineage of any kind) is black ... despite the lofty goals of the initiates.

It's not pure, white magic to get a job or a girl, but we sometimes need jobs to survive, especially when unemployed and running low on bread. Getting the girl is fine, but getting her due to the sudden demise of he husband seems to be rather dark and personally-motivated, eh?

There's a Gray (Chokmah?) zone here. The Magus must manipulate the external world to a certain extent in order to proclaim a new Law, or to keep an old one running on track.

White magic could include rites or other magical intentions to benefit humanity. Of course, any simple dildo can say his/her efforts are for humanity's benefit, but that don't count unless he/she's at least an 8=3.

"We are lucky if our magical engine runs at 50% efficiency."
- AC paraphrase


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dom
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27/04/2019 3:21 am  

A great and well written little practical manual on the subject;

https://www.sacred-texts.com/eso/topy/black.htm

Maybe Crolwey got it wrong with the witchcraft technique he was using and maybe the TOPY/Orridge got it right with their A.O.Spare influenced technique. The desire here is "sigilised" so that the conscious ego is bypassed and tricked and the sigil is launched..... this manual explains it better than I could. I don't see why a Thelemite couldn't be a fan and adherent of AOS sigilization.

Sigils are launched in states of ego-paralysis. If you think that sex-magic is a bit weird and some form of covert Freudian sublimation then you can use other methods. One writer even suggested using the time when you sneeze to launch a sigil, same principle.

AC should've used this technique to get his ego out of the way.


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ignant666
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27/04/2019 4:00 am  

AC should’ve used this technique to get his ego out of the way.

Too busy getting his end away.


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dom
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27/04/2019 11:36 am  

Yes his anxiety fuelled the stupid Casanova complex so yes his approach to "sex magick" was likely a shield against his denied flight from his childhood Plymouth Bethren damage.

Why did his sex magick fail over and over? Ironically the answer is in AL 1:43 - 1:45 and is blatantly stated;

43.
Do that, and no other shall say nay.
44.
For pure will, unassuaged of purpose, delivered from the lust of result, is every way perfect.
45.
The Perfect and the Perfect are one Perfect and not two; nay, are none!

so I think that the desired outcome is visualized at sexual climax in AC's OTO system? The ego can therefore get embroiled in the outcome....

….whereas AOS sigilization (usually used sexually but is devoid of "gobble-de-gook" methods)is all about, as stated earlier, tricking the ego's lust for result and is therefore more effective.

Yeah, so AOS sex magick works if not too much "strain is put on the universe" but as the TOPY essay states it works but not in a way you (your ego) would expect. This is also ironic as AOS (who broke away from AC) had the principles of AL 1:43-1:45 nailed within his system.

1m28s Jackass crew drinking semen;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEkDh-osWFo


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Michael Staley
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27/04/2019 1:55 pm  

@dom

Yeah, so AOS sex magick works if not too much “strain is put on the universe”

Could you give us a few examples of this working for you?


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dom
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28/04/2019 12:38 am  

I'd rather not. Why discuss something that's continuous?
I'm sure you'd rather not discuss it also?


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Michael Staley
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28/04/2019 2:10 am  

@dom

I’m sure you’d rather not discuss it also?

You're mistaken; I don't mind discussing it at all. I have experimented with Spare's sigillisation techniques, just as I have with the VIIIº and IXº OTO techniques. I was assuming that you had too, since you were so insistent on how much more effective it was than Crowley's IXº technique.


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dom
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28/04/2019 2:17 am  

Be my guest. What did you instigate?


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Michael Staley
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28/04/2019 2:58 am  

@dom

Over the years I've experimented with the VIIIº technique. Once I tried to bring about a result on someone else's behalf, with a result the opposite of which I had intended. Apart from that one attempt, all my VIIIº operations have been for what one might term "effect on consciousness", such as knowledge of Lam, etc.

My experiments with Spare's sigillisation techniques in terms of results magic have not been successful. Then again, as you and I have discussed in other threads, that's not really my interest in Spare.

What Spare and Crowley had in common at one time was the belief that their technique was infallible. However, in later years they rowed back from this position. In De Arte Magica, for instance, Crowley says that sometimes the technique works; at other times, it doesn't; at still other times, it has the opposite effect to that intended. There is an interesting account of Spare being at a dinner party in the late 1920s where he was still insisting that his technique was infallible, but then said that perhaps it was his destiny to remain poor.

Though I'm sympathetic to the thrust (no pun intended) of ignant's thesis in this thread, I happen to think that the jury is out and will never come back in. Over the many decades of my involvement with the occult, I've experienced some strange things. Personally I think that the techniques of Spare and Crowley can be effective, but that we don't know enough about the conditions that would optimise success.


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dom
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28/04/2019 3:17 am  

I'd say that the "strain on the universe" factor is the ingredient for success that needs to be addressed. We misjudge this.


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Michael Staley
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28/04/2019 3:34 am  

@dom

What do you mean by the "strain on the universe"?


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Shiva
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28/04/2019 4:52 am  

@dom

What do you mean by the “strain on the universe”?


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Tiger
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28/04/2019 6:09 am  

is it tort ?


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dom
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28/04/2019 7:54 am  

Unrealistic statistics according to the possible outcomes. It's a phrase I'm borrowing from P.J.Carroll.


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Shiva
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28/04/2019 8:06 am  

@Tiger

What do you mean by “tort”?


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Michael Staley
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28/04/2019 11:07 am  

@dom

Unrealistic statistics according to the possible outcomes.

What an utterly strange concept. How can statistics be "unrealistic"? Surely there's only one outcome, so how can you have statistics on potential outcomes that weren't actualised? Or is that Schrodinger's cat I hear mewing?


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dom
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28/04/2019 1:03 pm  

What an utterly strange concept. How can statistics be “unrealistic”? Surely there’s only one outcome, so how can you have statistics on potential outcomes that weren’t actualised? Or is that Schrodinger’s cat I hear mewing?

Unrealistic in our approach to the possible outcomes i.e. a mismanagement of the stats available. Did you know what I meant all along or are you possessed by the little gotcha! monster?


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Michael Staley
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28/04/2019 1:22 pm  

@dom

Did you know what I meant all along or are you possessed by the little gotcha! monster?

I didn't have a clue what you meant. I do regret asking, though.


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Michael Staley
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28/04/2019 1:24 pm  

@Shiva

What do you mean by “tort”?

Cake? Taut?


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Tiger
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28/04/2019 3:59 pm  

Definition of tort

: a wrongful act other than a breach of contract for which relief may be obtained in the form of damages or an injunction
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/tort

or take the o r between the t’s and put the au in between, and get something that has less judgement.
yes taut was the word i was trying to find and found tort

and thought tort might better suit a pettifogger clinician mind set


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Jamie J Barter
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28/04/2019 5:56 pm  

or are you possessed by the little gotcha! monster?
What do you mean by "the little gotcha! monster", dom? Speaking from your personal experience, that is?

Or is that Schrodinger’s cat I hear mewing?
I "tort" (/ taut?) I taw a puddy-tat?

You did, you did "T" a puddy-tat!
N Joy


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dom
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29/04/2019 12:14 am  

@jamiebarter

“tort” (/ taut?) I taw a puddy-tat?
You did, you did “T” a puddy-tat!

hahhahrr.

@michaelstayley

My experiments with Spare’s sigillisation techniques in terms of results magic have not been successful. Then again, as you and I have discussed in other threads, that’s not really my interest in Spare.

I wonder why and where you went wrong then? Probably because you feel like an idiot as you do it if you're not interested in it? I remember I was going through a beginner's course on sigils and the teacher had written that we should chose an innocuous desire initially, something your ego has no attachment to whatsoever almost like there is an inverse proportionate relationship between the efficacy of the sigil and the egotistical lust for result. I thought ok , "a black man will ask me for directions" how about that? An event I am not really concerned or excited about. In work one morning I made the sigil and I launched the sigil privately using anger and "fired it off" into the ….astral? multiverse?

Of course due to my blasé attitude I quickly forgot about it. About four hours later going about my job I was in a different part of the site in the afternoon and I heard a commotion. Some staff were asking a black guy where he was going as he had just come in off the street and was going down a corridor which was not really there to cater for the public. I asked him if he was ok and asked if I could I help and he asked me if I knew where a particular part of the site was. Haha basically statistically it was a white-intensive area in the main but here was a chance that yeah now and again I may see black people around.

Hopefully Michael this little example answers your question. Hopefully no one is going to go all 'Los' on me here. Lol.


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Shiva
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29/04/2019 12:24 am  

A tale of true black magic at its best. Too bad it's a waste of the electrons one will need to go Angel-talking. It'll take every electron you've got in your battery ... ask micro.


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dom
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29/04/2019 11:28 am  

True that.


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Aleisterion
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01/05/2019 10:32 pm  

Magick works in various ways on various levels. It's also functional on the mundane level, again in various ways. The greatest form of magick is inspirational, self-empowering, and enlightening. It can lead one to discover one's most extraordinary gifts of talent and wisdom, then it can magnify those gifts to the level of profound genius. If, that is, one evolves by that system of initiation which ultimately draws from the well of that magick, and transforms for the better, in remembrance of one's supernal will.

Aleister Crowley had the idea to promise students the moon, but to get it they had to thoroughly learn, utilize and progress through the system of initiation, which was a process not merely of years but sometimes of decades. (He was however of the opinion that his New Aeon system sped up the process a little, at least for those who persevered therein and did not err.) By the time they were ready to utilize that power, their petty desires for mundane effect hopefully would fall by the wayside as they eventually came to the realization that gnosis, enlightenment, wisdom and creative power were more important.

Even so, it does work on the mundane level too. Not always as one might expect, however. Crowley wrote in The Vision & the Voice that "Time is not here as it is There". Time isn't universally fixed; it's relative and it's also malleable. From what I've seen of Crowley's diaries, I'd say that he didn't fully realize this. He did say that something one does in the future could somehow materialize in the past, which is enough of a thought to make the head spin. But to go by his diary entries he didn't seem to realize that magick planted today might not come to flower until years -- or even decades -- to come.

The great revival emerged later as a full-blown storm in the '60s and '70s. Musical titans such as the Beatles, Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath, David Bowie and others heralded this great revival. Crowley suddenly had all the fame and appreciation he had sought in life, albeit posthumously. His works were published again and again; and he gathered more respect from intellectuals as a result of the analysis of Regardie in Eye in the Triangle.

In my opinion, especially in light of the many experiences I've had as a consequence of work done using the ideas put forth in The Magickal Revival and subsequent writings, Kenneth Grant also expressed great insight into aspects that humanity as a whole has yet to know about. From what I've seen with my own eyes, the source of these mysteries -- amazing and unbelievable as they may seem -- is exactly as he delineated. I look forward to the time when this is revealed to all.

Crowley met with apparent failure and mockery in his own time. He died owing more money than he possessed, chased by creditors. He was a source of universal contempt and derision. Twenty years after his death he became a hero to countless youth. His magick on the mundane level came to fruition -- just not when he had hoped.

Now here we are today, and many are doubting and discounting the genius of Crowley...yet again. But these things come in cycles; and as more initiates work in the garden of genius to cultivate the inspiration of many to come, magick revival is certain to return in good time -- without religion. Only next time, I think, the revolution will be global, not limited to the youth here and there, but with universal appeal. It has to be done right, without so much superstition as we've had in previous eras.

Again, this is all just my opinion. I think I've learned enough, experienced enough, and realized enough, for that opinion to be of slightly more value than the average Joe.

Finally, as for the sex magick, Crowley stipulated that knowledge of the technique, however informed, was itself inadequate. There is a factor not written; and this is the essential part of the process. The unworthy, no matter what they know, cannot find the hidden flame because they lack the power of passion needed, the degree of wisdom necessary, and the unclouded initiated insight required, to access it.


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ignant666
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01/05/2019 10:52 pm  

Thank you, o high holy initiate. We have not yet had much of the voice of "Of course your magick fails, because you are not as pure as I". Thank you for filling that gap.

Of course, this is only one of the topics under discussion here: has it worked for us.

The other one, the kind of important one that you dodge, is: Why did AC's sex magick always fail?

Would you say that the reason for AC's failure to make his VIII/IX/XI workings "work", daily acts mind you, for decade after decade, was his lack of that "factor not written" of which you so eloquently speak, or that he was among the "unworthy", or was it that he could not "find the hidden flame because [he] lack[ed] the power of passion needed, the degree of wisdom necessary, and the unclouded initiated insight required"?


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dom
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01/05/2019 11:03 pm  

The other one, the kind of important one that you dodge, is: Why did AC‘s sex magick always fail?

Lust for result? Desperation mindset?


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Aleisterion
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01/05/2019 11:15 pm  

Thanks for the sarcasm, but you're putting words in my mouth. It's not nice to twist someone's words around in a way unintended so that they backfire on their source. But have it your way if it makes you feel better!

I don't think I dodged your question, I just disagree with your assumption that his work failed. It failed in the short term, but certainly not in the long run. His fame has taken root; who knows to what extent this resurfaces again in future.

I don't think he lacked anything. He achieved what he wanted, just not when he personally wanted it. And this in spite of the fact that he was forewarned in Liber Legis against expecting too much in his own time.

I don't mind being mocked, I've had my share and I've found that a thick skin is essential to have in this world of monkey-minded men. (Mind you, I'm not referring to you.) It's also cool to disagree. I don't mind if you hold to a different view than I do. There's no way to prove any of this and frankly it doesn't matter. What matters to me is that there is work to do, and that it should be done without care for the result.


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ignant666
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01/05/2019 11:18 pm  

Replying to david above: Another possibility is that OTO-style "gobbledygook" sex magick is a failed method, and a blind alley that AC could not see was blind due to sex addiction, and a Victorian/Plymouth Brethren guilt that compelled him to cloak his lusts in holy garb.

Perhaps this is because the OTO "secret" is based on wholly false ideas about the physical/biological properties of sperm and female sexual fluids, and was conceived (so to speak) in total ignorance of the yet-to-be discovered idea of chromosomes, and thus is pray to post-medieval superstitious beliefs that males provide living complete souls (via Holy Sperms) to passive female incubators ("curcurbits"), and that this energy can be hijacked by preventing conception via the Holy Goop-Gobble?

Alesterion: Pardon me if i misinterpreted your tone or intent. AC's sex magick failed over and over on its own terms. Using 1914-19 as an example: he got no money, indifferent health, Jeanne Foster did not leave her husband for him, and Matlack Foster (the husband) did not die.


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Aleisterion
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01/05/2019 11:50 pm  

"Alesterion: Pardon me if i misinterpreted your tone or intent. AC’s sex magick failed over and over on its own terms. Using 1914-19 as an example: he got no money, indifferent health, Jeanne Foster did not leave her husband for him, and Matlack Foster (the husband) did not die."

All true, from the limited perspective of the moment. He failed to fully realize that these orgia wouldn't necessarily produce fruit right away as he wanted, but the seed thereof (no pun) would in time grow around the world far, far beyond his wildest expectations. In short, it turned out much better than he ever expected.

By the way, Jeanne Robert Foster (and others who came and went) inspired him and assisted him to achieve great things. As usual, his personal expectations were dismissed, and he was eventually rewarded with more than he asked for. For example, he credited the writings he wrote to the magical inspiration and subtle influence of the inspired partners with whom he worked at the time. There were also the extraordinary individuals (such as C.S. Jones) and their contributions, which he also credited to these oracular women. These partners came and went, but they served effectively in their roles.

I also credit the worldwide cultural and social breakthroughs in various enlightened places to Crowley's work. If you look at the music, movies, and laws of today, and contrast them with the ideas of the Victorian era, you'll find that the ideas expressed in Liber Legis achieved popularity as never expected. Regardie noted this way back in the 1970s; today it's more obvious than ever.


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dom
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02/05/2019 11:38 pm  

@ig666

post-medieval superstitious beliefs that males provide living complete souls (via Holy Sperms) to passive female incubators (“curcurbits”), and that this energy can be hijacked by preventing conception via the Holy Goop-Gobble?

Males hold future souls-to-be in their scrotums a la Book of Thoth's Devil ATU? Yeah pretty one-sided view isn't it however it's valid in the sense that the male is the giver but yes one-sided.

@aleisterion

All true, from the limited perspective of the moment. He failed to fully realize that these orgia wouldn’t necessarily produce fruit right away as he wanted, but the seed thereof (no pun) would in time grow around the world far, far beyond his wildest expectations. In short, it turned out much better than he ever expected.

We're not talking about his far-reaching long term effects. We all know that which is why we're on this forum now. We're discussing why his practical magic failed in that time period.


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