Does "sex magick" w...
 

Does "sex magick" work?  

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ignant666
(@ignant666)
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03/05/2019 12:05 am  

Males hold future souls-to-be in their scrotums a la Book of Thoth’s Devil ATU? Yeah pretty one-sided view isn’t it however it’s valid in the sense that the male is the giver but yes one-sided.

No, it isn't. Males provide one set of gametes, women provide the other one. Neither one is the "giver". This was certainly known information in AC's day, but he chose to go with a medieval Platonist fantasy; so much for "the method of science".

You are correct that the card you mention is intended as a literal depiction of what i described.


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Aleisterion
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03/05/2019 12:11 am  

"We’re not talking about his far-reaching long term effects. We all know that which is why we’re on this forum now. We’re discussing why his practical magic failed in that time period."

I understand that. I'm suggesting that his personal will was trumped by his greater will. The idea that he was wholly one with his supernal will, as he often let on, is just wrong. The magick he put into motion to achieve wealth and fame and worldwide establishment of "the Kingdom of Ra-Hoor-Khuit" (as he put it), through countless operations, failed to materialize as he had intended, clearly. He was a blind slave to his own genius. Yet obviously all that fame and fortune was realized long after his death, just as Legis had foretold in his youth.


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Jamie J Barter
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03/05/2019 1:43 am  

@ignant666 :

Note that i refer to AC/OTO-style “sex magick”, and particularly what the OTO called (or “calls”, if one believes any such organization to currently exist) “IX working”, and NOT tantra, karezza, or any other form of sexual activity done for magick/mystical purposes. The VIII “magical masturbation” and XI man-to-man versions are essentially identical to the IX method with obvious adjustments.
By “AC/OTO-style ‘sex magick'” or “IX working”, i mean:
a) a male magician having vaginal intercourse with a female (who may not be aware that an act of magick is going on)
b) while thinking/chanting about a desired outcome in the material world (eg, money, good health, or the love of a particular person (typically not the person one is fucking)), followed by
c) consuming the combined sexual fluids after orgasm.

To this list could perhaps be added
d) smearing the combined sexual fluids on parchment talismans, etc
as well, in the manner of the 'to obtain a great treasure', etc.
With regard to the OTO's sex-magickal practices, it has recently been put forward that the origins and the main catalyst behind these came not so much from its founder Karl Kellner's travels in the Orient as from the more nearer-to-home Occidental American tantrist Paschal Beverly Randolph instead. In which case how far did Kellner and Theodor Reuss adapt and copy (plagiarise?) Randolph's ideas and practices would be a pertinent question.

I am defining “low magick” as sex magick workings to get, eg, money, better health, the love of a beautiful woman, or for the death of that beautiful woman’s husband. I just finished Churton’s Crowley In America – these four desires are the subjects of at-least-daily VIII/IX/XI workings for most of the five years from 1914-19. Results: He got little money, poor to middling health, the occasional bit of sex from said beauty (though she left AC for a man with an income), and her husband lived (not that she much cared). [...] In my opinion, especially, AC’s sex magick failed over and over on its own terms. Using 1914-19 as an example: he got no money, indifferent health, Jeanne Foster did not leave her husband for him, and Matlack Foster (the husband) did not die.
I tried to get a whole thread in motion discussing this very aspect (using the IX as a means to bring about the death of another, the same Matlack Foster) --- the self-descriptive "Aleister Crowley: Black Magician?" --- but the (moral) significance of it was played down in favour of the attitude that it's only as bad as thinking unkind thoughts of someone, virtually ignoring the magical axiom that the thought is the forerunner of the deed, and that the mental world of Yetzirah has to be formulated before manifestation in Assiah and the Kingdom can take place. It's rather petered out by now but all of the relevant evidence from Tobias Churton was presented during such discussion as took place.

@Aleisterion :

In my opinion, especially in light of the many experiences I’ve had as a consequence of work done using the ideas put forth in The Magickal Revival and subsequent writings, Kenneth Grant also expressed great insight into aspects that humanity as a whole has yet to know about. From what I’ve seen with my own eyes, the source of these mysteries — amazing and unbelievable as they may seem — is exactly as he delineated. I look forward to the time when this is revealed to all.
This is a teasing morsel Aleisterion! Could you perhaps say a little more about just which seemingly 'amazing and unbelievable mysteries' hidden away from humanity you have found to be 'exactly as he [Kenneth Grant] delineated'? As much detail as you can possibly manage to reveal would be appreciated in order to slake my curiosity.

N Joy


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Aleisterion
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03/05/2019 8:57 pm  

"This is a teasing morsel Aleisterion! Could you perhaps say a little more about just which seemingly ‘amazing and unbelievable mysteries’ hidden away from humanity you have found to be ‘exactly as he [Kenneth Grant] delineated’? As much detail as you can possibly manage to reveal would be appreciated in order to slake my curiosity."

Ultraterrestrial intelligences. I've come across numerous extraordinary occult experiences throughout the years, but those were merely subjective mystical events (for the most part). None of those holds a candle to this. This is altogether different. Sooner or later it'll come out. It's real and it's all around us. And the reality with which we're comfortable is not at all what we think it us. I realize what I'm saying seems nuts, but I don't care what anybody thinks I know what I've seen is real. For now I just have to leave it at that.

One thing I will add: I never expected anything like what I now know to be true; and it's life-shattering.

Sorry I went off on a tangent, I've no wish to derail the thread. Back to your regularly scheduled program!


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Jamie J Barter
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04/05/2019 3:06 am  

Congratulations and a garland of roses to you Aleisterion on unexpectedly against the odds managing to provide an even more teasing response to both my enquiry & the morsel which you had already supplied, which succeeded in revealing no real further information apart from that intriguing but blanket description "ultraterrestrial inteligences", and then in closure signing off with that supremely titillating expression consisting of "for now I just have to leave it at that." (!)

I have no wish to derail the thread either, no seriously, I don't (and I mean that most sincerely) but given some of the more extreme & massive deviations from topic throughout Lashtal's long history I'm sure no one would mind terribly if you were to come out with something by way of elucidation, rather than provocation! I don't think what you're saying seems nuts at all (yet) and would be quite enthralled to learn just what it is you're talking about that your "numerous extraordinary occult experiences throughout the years" can't hold a candle to. Assuming you're not yanking our collective chains and it's all some grand put-on --- that possibility can't be disregarded either of course --- but I'm willing to take a punt that you might actually have something interesting to say. And even if not, no matter, as it's been a fairly entertaining diversion anyway. So far!

If it's something particularly to do with KG maybe you could open a thread on the forum board which bears his name, if you're anxious about not going off on (or even going on off at) a tangent and interrupting the scheduled programming here on this one?

Suggestively yours
Y Ojn


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Tiger
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04/05/2019 5:32 am  

and don’t tell us
that it has nothin to do with nothin
and that it can’t be conceived by those below the abyss
because they have to change .
their perspective .
and conceive
something outside
the faculty of perception
in the common sense .
emanations of change
in something or other
and possibly apart
off the map
from
kama manas
if you want to tease
the flux

give us somethin that can be
dialed into

some juceiy and don’t tell us
that it has nothin to do with nothin
and that it can’t be conceived by those below the abyss
because they have to change .
their perspective .
and conceive
something outside
the faculty of perception
in the common sense .
emanations of change
in something or other
and possibly apart
off the map
from
kama manas
if you want to tease
the flux

give us somethin that can be
dialed into

you know
give us somthin juicy


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Shiva
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04/05/2019 5:59 am  

j: ... which succeeded in revealing no real further information apart from that intriguing but blanket description “ultraterrestrial inteligences”

Oh, he's had a look at the next dimension over, which is coming our way. That's all.

T: ... that it has nothin to do with nothin

But it has everything to do with nuthin. "Nuthin is a secret key ..." The Jews called it sixty-one.


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Tiger
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04/05/2019 6:53 am  

“ but it has everything to do with nuthin. “Nuthin is a secret key …” The Jews called it sixty-one. “
forthwith some electrons that !


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dom
 dom
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04/05/2019 2:11 pm  

@alesteirion

any chance you could start using the "b-quote" function when you're copying other people's quotes? Thanks mate, makes it easier to read.


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wellreadwellbred
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04/05/2019 11:30 pm  

I wonder if the following written by R T Cole in his book Liber L vel Bogus (available as a free PDF download on this site), is him stating that Crowley was not merely the prophet of the New Aeon, but actually precipiated it by “sex magick”?:

"In the summer of 1891, Crowley (then just fifteen) sold his innocence to a Torquay prostitute. Incidentally, his ‘change’ included a venereal disease, though Crowley did not hold this against the woman. His response to the transaction is fascinating:“The nightmare world of Christianity vanished at the dawn. [...] the detestable mysteries of sex were transformed into joy and beauty. The obsession of sin fell from my shoulders...” (Page 75) Crowley (allegedly) did not grasp the potential of Sex Magick until his 1912/13 meeting with Theodor Reuss. However, his debut act of coitus unquestionably forged a deep connection between sex and liberation." (Liber L vel Bogus (R T Cole), page 37)

“…, I believe that Aleister Crowley:
* Was a dangerous psychopath, though uniquely assisted by mental illness that would have fatally handicapped any other individual.

* Did form a Magickal Link with the gods of a new epoch, but misunderstood the nature of this communication.

* ‘May’ have received Liber L. vel Legis from a supernatural source, but could not have done so on 08, 09 & 10 April 1904.

* Correctly identified Thelema as the Word of a New Aeon, but failed to grasp its essential message, or simplicity.

* Was not merely the prophet of the New Aeon, but actually precipiated it!

Far from dawdling in the starting block, Thelema is taking the world by storm in a coert revolution overlooked by almost everyone. Today, millions of ordianary people blindly ride Crowlety’s ‘Magical Current’ with no comprehension or even awareness of the forces reshaping every facet of their lives. Somewhat paradoxically, a few thousand individuals ideally positioned to understand the root causes of colossal changes sweeping across the globe, ‘Thelemites’, have completely failed to equate these with the eventualities their guru spent his life attempting to define." (Liber L vel Bogus (R T Cole), page 62)

"Crowley’s life-changing revelation gravitated around a notion of using stele imagery as the basis for a ritualised act(s) of Sex Magick. Having made this connection, his notebook continues with the B2 material (incorporating stele imagery he purportedly does not yet possess) and copious notes relating to Sex Magick. I suspect that, by whatever means of persuasion, Crowley lured his new wife into a threesome including Hamid, the couple’s athletic male “waiter.” If indeed Crowley did secure Rose’s willing participation in a drama incorporating homosexual elements, then his sense of achievement must have felt boundless. He
had broken his generation’s ultimate taboo, whilst on honeymoon, and with his bride’s cooperation and indulgence. If Crowley was looking for a convenient portent on which to hang his new crown, this was surely as good as it was ever going to get! The gods themselves had revealed to their ‘Chosen One’ the Formula of a New Equinox. A new epoch of sexual liberation had dawned, whose sacrament was orgiastic promiscuity (“The word of Sin is Restriction” - Liber L. vel Legis, I, 41). That Crowley synchronised his ecstatic revelation with the Spring Equinox, was a nice touch."
(Liber L vel Bogus (R T Cole), page 199)

"Crowley left Egypt armed only with a philosophers’ stone, Sex Magick, with which he will vanquish Mathers - An assertion explicitly confirmed in notes subsequently expunged from all published accounts." (Liber L vel Bogus (R T Cole), page 200)

"Crowley returned to Boleskine with only the idea of a ‘New Equinox’ scheme featuring sexual Magick (first to destroy Mathers, then to form a Magickal Link with the Secret Chiefs)." (Liber L vel Bogus (R T Cole), page 203)

"Table 02
Comparison of entries as recorded in Crowley’s personal diary and occult Book
of Results entries between 09 February and 08 April 1904. […]

March 23[:] Diary[:] Y.K. done (? His work on the Yi King) [-] The Book of Results: The Secret of W, the seer. 1. Mercury of Ank-f-n-honsu = [OuMh] 2. Mars in Libra = the ritual is of sex; Mars in the house of Venus exciting the jealousy of Saturn or Vulcan" (Liber L vel Bogus (R T Cole), page 228)

"Table 03
A brief chronology of modifications Crowley incorporated into his New Equinox scheme between November 1902 and September 1936. […]

Mar. 1904[:] Returns to Egypt with an idea of Sex Magick based on stele imagery. Tri-sexual ceremony with Rose and Hamid convinces Crowley that he can usurp Mathers and initiate a New Equinox of sexual liberation, with sex as its ultimate sacrament and Crowley at the reins." (Liber L vel Bogus (R T Cole), page 230)


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Shiva
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04/05/2019 11:57 pm  

Say, that's a lot of Bogus quotes.


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wellreadwellbred
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05/05/2019 12:49 am  

Well, Richard T. Cole does on page 62 in his book Liber L. vel Bogus (second, corrected edition) state that he believes that Aleister Crowley:

"... * Did form a Magickal Link with the gods of a new epoch, but misunderstood the nature of this communication.

* ‘May’ have received Liber L. vel Legis from a supernatural source, but could not have done so on 08, 09 & 10 April 1904.

* Correctly identified Thelema as the Word of a New Aeon, but failed to grasp its essential message, or simplicity.

* Was not merely the prophet of the New Aeon, but actually precipiated it!"

But he still has not made it clear how AC made a Magickal Link with the gods of a new epoch, and what that is the correct nature of this communication. He has also not made it clear what is the "essential message, or simplicity" of Thelema as the Word of a New Aeon. And he has not made it clear how AC precipiated this New Aeon.

All the "Bogus quotes" presented by me in this thread, is to document the larger textual context from Richard T. Cole's book Liber L. vel Bogus, which is my basis for wondering if AC "Did form a Magickal Link with the gods of a new epoch" through “sex magick”, and if "the nature of this communication" is “sex magick”al, and if the "essential message, or simplicity" of Thelema as the Word of a New Aeon, is “sex magick”al in nature, and if AC precipiated this New Aeon by “sex magick”, according to Richard T. Cole?


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Shiva
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05/05/2019 3:26 am  

Wellread, I haven't counted the ways, but you are a master at repeating the same sentence over and over, with maybe a word or two changed each time.

We are all familiar with Bogus ... there was a long thread about it. You include "sex magic" in your post(s), so i Won't accuse you of derailing.

Alright now, let's list the facts:

1. AC wrote "The ritual is of sex" or something just like that (in relation to the Cairo Working). So that's settled ... no conflicting speculation.

2. But whether he used "sex magic" to form a link with aliens, astronauts, 0r angels, or to precipitate a new aeon, the answer is "of course he did."
He used it for making magickal children, for cohabiting with the gods, and to get a pound or two.

The basic question here on this thread, is "did it work?" Or "does it work," if IX* experts or pretenders wish to speak of personal experience.

We hardly know if he got the girl, the god, the aeon, etc, but he certainly didn't get the gold (or silver), or even those funny papers with pictures of queens and dead presidents on them.

Whether he


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Tiger
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05/05/2019 7:37 am  

A lot has changed
since the Mysterium Cabal st i cum , the Philo Sohia sacra
and the precipitous foot path;
proceeding south east
opposite the lodge gate,
of Milgate House;
near Maidstone;
to take a turn;
if you didn’t get the memo .


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dom
 dom
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05/05/2019 1:17 pm  

I was told by a teacher when I was younger that any type of sorcery/spell etc won't work if the law of Karma is not taken into account.

Maybe this is why AC's sex-magick rites discussed here failed. He was an asshole with a whole lotta karmic debts to pay.


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gurugeorge
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05/05/2019 2:47 pm  

It's always seemed to me that it must not work, because people involved in Crowleyian stuff, with only a few exceptions, seem to be as poor as dirt.

I mean, if it worked, you'd expect the OTO (or other Crowleyian organisations, etc.) to have luxuriously-appointed premises (like the fantasy in Moonchild), be a presence amongst moneyed interests, have an influence on the body politic, etc.

The only thing that might counter that expectation, as far as I can see, would be the idea that since Magick is supposed to work in conformity with Nature/God's Plan, perhaps we're not "meant" to be rich at this stage - in some sense, our sorry condition is all part of the Plan. There are also some considerations in MiTaP about conservation of energy/matter (if someone gets money here, it must have come from somewhere else over there, it can't be created ex nihilo - a curiously orthodox economic view). I always wondered about some of those ideas: I mean, isn't part of the charm of magick supposed to be that you could perform 2miracles" with it, things that are at right-angles to the laws of Nature?

But then again, another reflection occurs to me: my initial premise takes it for granted that people interested in Magick would eagerly try to use it; but how many people have actually tried doing sex magick for money? And of those who have, how many have done it with proper form, according to authorized/official instructions?


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ignant666
(@ignant666)
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05/05/2019 3:19 pm  

Welcome back, gurugeorge; a long time since we heard from you.

We have to presume that AC did it "right", and his results were dismal.

As you point out, the (c)OTO also does not display the signs of worldly success that ought to flow from possessing The Ultimate Magickal Secret.


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Jamie J Barter
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05/05/2019 6:29 pm  

@wellreadwellbred : could you tell what is your own particular take on what "sex magick based on stele imagery" means in terms of a "tri-sexual ceremony" with the waiter Hamid? Also, the implication of the quote you gave ("‘May’ have received Liber L. vel Legis from a supernatural source, but could not have done so on 08, 09 & 10 April 1904") is that AC did not consciously construct it as his own creation at all; that it was, far from being 'bogus' actually a genuine text received through channelling "from a supernatural source" - the only quibble being 'when', with the date of reception itself: does this now currently constitute your own personal stance on the matter?

@dom :

I was told by a teacher when I was younger that any type of sorcery/spell etc won’t work if the law of Karma is not taken into account.
Did this law of Karma extend across lifetimes/ incarnations or remain strictly within (and not beyond) the present one? Isn't the implication that A.C. would have addressed the 'karmic debts' within his own lifetime to date in terms of the magickal work he'd already undergone up to 9=2?

@ignant666 :

We have to presume that AC did it “right”, and his results were dismal.
One of the problems is that there is no clearly laid down written procedure or instructions from the O.T.O. (i.e., Reuss or Kellner) on the precise "mechanics" of the IX (or VIII/XI) technique(s). The nearest equivalent from Crowley himself --- IX Emblems and Modes of Use and a couple of chapters from The Book of Lies --- is far from unambivalent in terms of interpretation.
The IXth degree method of transmission is also at variance. There has never been an initiation ceremony as such. Some say they had to write an essay first before A.C. agreed they'd worked it out correctly by themselves and that the bestowal of the IX itself was then just a simple formality (e.g. Grant). With other people it seems to have been purely an honorific based on favouritism more than anything else (e.g. Germer). Incidentally, according to Allan Greenfield by 2005 the current head of {c}O.T.O. Bill Breeze had hardly ordained anybody else a IX at all, despite that always having been one of the O.T.O.'s prime objectives.

@Aleisterion :

I trust you are busy being thoughtful & in the process of formulating a fascinating response somewhere and not, to paraphrase The Beatles in Day Tripper, a prick/ teaser that only took me half the way there!...

N Joy


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dom
 dom
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05/05/2019 6:32 pm  

@gurugeorge

What,everyone has to want to be a millionaire?

I find it hard to believe that there are no upper middle income bracket folk in the OTO? I find that very hard to believe.


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Shiva
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05/05/2019 8:02 pm  

jb: ... the only quibble being ‘when’, with the date of reception itself

Right. That stickler was covered in detail in the Liber Bogus thread. There were documents submitted as evidence, including ships' names, sailing schedules, etc. It does seem like the dates do not coincide exactly, but they are in the same general time zone.

As I have indicated before, when these sort of things take place, there is often a time warp ("kinks in time") involved. It becomes impossible to look back and make rational sense out of the experience.

Sure, he could have faked the whole thing. Or he could have had some crossed-time-wires. It's a good thing we've been taught that only our own experience is to be credited ... and all the rest is just Hod fodder.

jb: Isn’t the implication that A.C. would have addressed the ‘karmic debts’ within his own lifetime to date in terms of the magickal work he’d already undergone up to 9=2?

This implication is in line with the "generally accedpted principles," and with my own observations. However, all the personal karma (i.e., from past lives or inherited karmic debt) is accounted for and discharged in the work of the Inner Order. But upon reaching the City of the Pyramids, one (no one) finds that he or she is now responsible for a bigger chunk of (more universal) karma. This, theoretically, would be "worked off" at 9=2 ... as the Magus toils in the collective unconscious on behalf of humanity.

Some say they had to write an essay first before A.C. agreed they’d worked it out correctly by themselves ...

But with Frank Bennett, he simply gave it to him because Frank had kept some copies of papers, and AC had lost his copies. I always thought this was a pretty weak reason for bestowing the IX*.

With other people it seems to have been purely an honorific based on favouritism more than anything else (e.g. Germer).

Right. My point exactly.

Incidentally, according to Allan Greenfield by 2005 the current head of {c}O.T.O. Bill Breeze had hardly ordained anybody else a IX at all, despite that always having been one of the O.T.O.’s prime objectives.

Oh, you're thinking about the olde OTO, not the contempraree OTO. It's like Jerry Cornelius said when he bailed out: This is not the OTO I joined.


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Michael Staley
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05/05/2019 10:51 pm  

@Jamie

There has never been an [IXº] initiation ceremony as such.

Whilst the IXº was generally bestowed, on at least one occasion there was a ceremony. That was when David Curwen was given the IXº in December 1945. The relevant entries from Crowley's diary are:

4/12/1945: "Wrote form of Oath for Curwen's IXº"

15/12/1945: "Gave L.U.W [Louis Wilkinson] 'Per Terra Ad Astra' IXº whole theory of O.T.O."

16/12/1945: "D. Curwen here for IXº"

There are more details of this given in Henrik Bogdan's Brother Curwen, Brother Crowley, including a letter that Curwen wrote to Crowley soon after the ceremony. Wilkinson officiated at the ceremony, which was why he was given the IXº the day before. After the ceremony, Curwen tried to talk to Wilkinson about the IXº, only to discover that he knew little or nothing about it.

The bestowal of the IXº on Wilkinson the day before indicates that the presence of an officer was not necessary, but in this case Crowley was keen to impress Curwen, hence the ceremony. Regrettably for Crowley, the strategy failed.


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Jamie J Barter
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05/05/2019 11:22 pm  

@shiva :

As I have indicated before, when these sort of things take place, there is often a time warp (“kinks in time”) involved. It becomes impossible to look back and make rational sense out of the experience.
Wrwb in older posts originally gave the impression that he believed A.C. had come up with Liber Legishimself --- no Aiwass. His alternative reading which he's put forward (via RTC) is suggestive of something different: that now, everything in the reception account is to be taken more or less as read - the main controversy being the date(s) on which it was taken down, more than anything else.

However, all the personal karma (i.e., from past lives or inherited karmic debt)
Leaving aside the whole debate on reincarnation, you don 't seem sympathetic to the idea that we (everyone) should start our lifetimes off with "a clean sheet" then. This supposed hangover from previous lives etc has always struck me as a little unfair: not quite cricket, if you know what I mean?
To discuss this fully could take up a whole thread on its own. Still, I wanted to hear what dom had to say. (Or, I still want to hear what dom has to say.)

I always thought this was a pretty weak reason for bestowing the IX*.
Right --- different strokes for different folks it seems.

Oh, you’re thinking about the olde OTO, not the contempraree OTO. It’s like Jerry Cornelius said when he bailed out: This is not the OTO I joined.
Right, yes, I didn't put quotation marks around O.T.O.: it was the (c)O.T.O., which I joined. And also bailed out from. And then joined the club of those who'd subsequently bailed.

You've replied to each of my queries & points I addressed to someone else, Shiva! That's alright by me --- I do it myself quite often, this is an open forum after all --- not that it manages to assuage me nor absolves them from having to reply themselves. But just in case you were feeling I'd been a little bit neglectful of you personally, here's one specially just for you I looked out from earlier on (# 112651 from page 1):

AC suggested we would be lucky if our magical efforts got as high as 50%. He was known for using IX* for money. He described exactly how to proceed, giving gold as an example. He also used Abramelin talismans for money. That’s why he was so wealthy in the latter years of his life. [… leaving several paragraphs ...] Aleister had his Abra talisman “For a great fortune” under his pillow (or in his pocket – depending on which tale you reference). I don’t remember the part about him having wealth around him at the time (of his death)
So --- wealthy or not, in the latter years of his life/ at the time of A.C.'s death (since you can't have it both ways on this plane of being materially well off or not)?

Y Jon


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Jamie J Barter
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05/05/2019 11:50 pm  

@michael stayley :

Whilst the IXº was generally bestowed, on at least one occasion there was a ceremony. [...]

Many thanks for that, Mick. I haven't been fortunate enough to acquire (or read) Brother Curwen, Brother Crowley yet, although it's definitely high up on my things to do list. And now that you've mentioned it, I do seem to vaguely recall reading something way back in the past about an unusual and possibly "irregular" ritual of some sort, but nothing formalised and put down. Needless to say I would be most interested in seeing the text of it --- you'd have thought if there was such a document there'd be something in this age of the information superhighway, but no one seems to have come across anything yet? And it comes as no surprise at all to learn that Louis Wilkinson "knew little or nothing about it" either. Just fancy! (And wasn't Symonds meant to have been made an IX as well?)...

Would be fascinating to get the full sp on this...
O yNj


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Shiva
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06/05/2019 12:12 am  

jb: you don ‘t seem sympathetic to the idea that we (everyone) should start our lifetimes off with “a clean sheet” then.

Right. Everybody is not equal at birth (their genetic potential), and they're not equal as they get older (genetic potential unleashed).

This supposed hangover from previous lives etc has always struck me as a little unfair: not quite cricket, if you know what I mean?

On the one hand (the black one), sure, It's not fair! On the other hand (the NEMO-made-white one), we get exactly what's coming to us. It just seems unfair because we haven't mastered the art of cause and effect.

being materially well off or not

The first was a sarcasm; the second, a truism.


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Jamie J Barter
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06/05/2019 12:58 am  

@Shiva :

Right. Everybody is not equal at birth (their genetic potential), and they’re not equal as they get older (genetic potential unleashed).
Everybody (=every man and woman) is born a star. But: there are stars and stars.

On the one hand (the black one), sure, It’s not fair! On the other hand (the NEMO-made-white one), we get exactly what’s coming to us.
Right. (And left hand).

It just seems unfair because we haven’t mastered the art of cause and effect.
Scientifically speaking? I suppose "it remains to be seen" then...

The first was a sarcasm; the second, a truism.
Ah, so! Now it's as clear as daylight: my sarcasm-ometer must have been playing up & a bit basil (=faulty) there.

Ambidextrously yours,
O yJn


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dom
 dom
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06/05/2019 2:40 am  

@jamiebarter

Did this law of Karma extend across lifetimes/ incarnations or remain strictly within (and not beyond) the present one? Isn’t the implication that A.C. would have addressed the ‘karmic debts’ within his own lifetime to date in terms of the magickal work he’d already undergone up to 9=2?

I don't know. Anyway to be OT why did he say that these workings failed?


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Shiva
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06/05/2019 3:06 am  

jb: But: there are stars and stars.

Red ones, blue ones
orange ones now.
Big ones, small ones,
dwarfish we'll allow.
Every star is different,
I say holy cow!


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Michael Staley
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06/05/2019 11:49 am  

@dom

I don’t know. Anyway to be OT why did he say that these workings failed?

I haven't come across anywhere in his writings or his diaries where he directly addressed this. However, in a commentary on the IXº, De Arte Magica (Level Press, San Francisco, n.d., Section VII), Crowley remarked that the results of the technique were variable: sometimes they had the desired effect, sometimes not; at other times, the result might be the opposite of what was intended.

The reason for this, I think, is that in order to bring about a result, the operator is seeking to engage with strata of consciousness deeper than the individual, which have their own tides. It may be that these are not readily open to manipulation from our relatively surface levels of consciousness; or it might be that other factors are involved.

I do recall reading many years ago an essay by Gerald Yorke in the course of which he addressed the fact that although Crowley did many Operations for money, or for the arising of the "rich man" as foreshadowed in The Book of the Law, the large sums he had in mind never materialised; yet small amounts of money would arrive in the nick of time, never enough for him to relax, but just enough to avert catastrophe.


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dom
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06/05/2019 12:16 pm  

Is magical failure failure? That's a rhetorical question.


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Aleisterion
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06/05/2019 12:33 pm  

Congratulations and a garland of roses to you Aleisterion on unexpectedly against the odds managing to provide an even more teasing response to both my enquiry & the morsel which you had already supplied, which succeeded in revealing no real further information apart from that intriguing but blanket description “ultraterrestrial inteligences”, and then in closure signing off with that supremely titillating expression consisting of “for now I just have to leave it at that....If it’s something particularly to do with KG maybe you could open a thread on the forum board which bears his name, if you’re anxious about not going off on (or even going on off at) a tangent and interrupting the scheduled programming here on this one?

I've nothing to gain by putting anybody on. Shiva wasn't far off the mark by stating that I've had a look over at the next dimension, but I'd say it was more than a look. My work in sex magick, which has been ongoing since the 1980s -- and got to important nexi in '92 and 2003 -- has undoubtedly led my partner and I to this critical juncture, opening certain gateways which have broken down parts of the matrix to our perception. Allowing us to glimpse reality as only some see it. But another side-effect of our work has been contact with these ultraterrestrials: commonly referred to as extraterrestrials, but mistakenly so because they're not from another world, they're from this world in a far future time, making use of stealth to avoid being known.

For the longest time I've thought of these mahatmas or ascended masters as spiritual beings, but not anymore. As a longtime fan of the works of Grant I've utilized the Lam image in my work over the years, but have had little actual success in getting at anything substantial, or achieving much in the way of gnosis. Since 2012 or so, things have been morphing at a gradual pace, and reality as I know it has changed. I'm not describing subjective attainment mind you, but external changes. At a certain point, in the last couple of years, these changes were accompanied by actual contact with what others describe as grey aliens, their craft at first followed by actual personal contact. Both my partner and I have been contacted in this way. All these events were life-changing and have caused me to rethink everything. I used to adhere to a somewhat religious routine and perspective, but now not at all. I avoid spiritual superstition now, in all its forms.

I don't think I'll be taken seriously which is why I don't go into too much detail: why bother? I'm not egocentric about this and don't believe our work has had an impact on Them -- rather, it was the cumulative effect of our work over the years (and our use of the Lam image) which has enabled us to recognize what was already there hidden from profane sight. I suppose I should add that I am not a member of O.T.O. and that our work has been our own special modifications of tantric orgia, not a strict adherence to existing practices.

It's my understanding that eventually the truth of all this will come out, and that this revelation will be universally received. When that will be I'm not sure, but it will happen.

Anyway I've even more respect for Grant now. He had the insight and courage to write about these things; and he was spot on. And the use of the Lam image, in the orgia of the sanctuary, leads indeed to a hacking of the matrix, if done repeatedly and devotedly over a number of years. It really does work. To what degree it works depends entirely on the quality and quantity of work done.

Sorry if I'm a bit vague but there's a helluva lot to relate and I don't wish to impose. Anyway there it is, I'm sorry if you feel I'm pulling your leg I have nothing to gain by doing that and I'm not inclined to pranks or stunts.


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Michael Staley
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06/05/2019 2:00 pm  

@dom

Is magical failure failure? That’s a rhetorical question.

Is any sort of failure failure? Perhaps; perhaps not.

That's a rhetorical answer.


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ignant666
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06/05/2019 2:04 pm  

So, Alesterion, you have now learned that "reality" is not "real", but merely a veil thrown over the "real" "reality".

Is there actually some reason to believe that this hidden ("occult") "reality" is the "real" "reality"? Gnosis, you say?

But of course quotidian/material/vulgar "reality" carries with it a strong conviction/knowledge ("gnosis") that it is "real".

Having, so to speak, peeled back one layer of the onion of Maya, why are you so quick to assume that you are done? Doesn't Occam's Razor tell us that, having found that quotidian reality is not "real", further "realities" that are manifest to us are just as illusory? Consider the concept of "glamor" with regard to these entities and experiences you mention.


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Aleisterion
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06/05/2019 2:38 pm  

@ignant666

An illusion upon an illusion, veils upon veils ad infinitum? That applies to everything, and nullifies the significance of anything? I'm not referring to mystical experiences, of course, but physical events -- not that physical reality is exactly real as you say -- as well as changes of various kinds, mandela effects, and other occurrences. Being dismissive of our experience, or rather of our perception and conclusion thereof, is perfectly understandable. I don't expect anyone to do otherwise, unless he's been there. And I certainly don't think less of anyone's attainment or experience if it has differed from our own, as it may be that his "reality" takes another form, or trips through any number of infinite possibilities across infinite dimensions. Then again it does nobody any good denying the validity of everything, particularly if it is necessary to act. I'll adopt the attitude of Harpocrates, most definitely, but I'll not refrain from the motion of his counterpart. What is known with absolute certainty is that action is followed by rectification, which leads to understanding and wisdom, in clarity. In our case, this has been for the best, in every way to our advantage; and so it has to be said that sex magick most definitely does work, and that most effectively and dramatically.

Of course it might be possible for an individual (or individuals) to shift as it were, from one reality to another, without affecting others. That is entirely speculative.

One thing is also certain: without the work of Blavatsky, Crowley, Grant, and many others, our own success in these initiatory and exploratory endeavors would be diminished -- or different at least. As Crowley once said, we all benefit from the influences of our predecessors.


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ignant666
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06/05/2019 3:00 pm  

...veils upon veils ad infinitum? ... not that physical reality is exactly real as you say

Bingo! The man takes home the (illusory) prize of his choice!

Being dismissive of our experience, or rather of our perception and conclusion thereof, is perfectly understandable.

That is not at all what i am doing. AC advises that all entities are to be tested, and not trusted until they prove themselves. I am suggesting taking this principle a bit further.

Then again it does nobody any good denying the validity of everything, particularly if it is necessary to act.

Oh? What makes it "necessary to act"? Consider the Tao, and "water".


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Aleisterion
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06/05/2019 3:09 pm  

@ignant666

Thank you for your illusory prize! I shall treasure it most dearly all my days.

I never suggested you were being dismissive, merely that I would understand it if you (or anyone) did so. I've been thorough in my testing and consideration, thank you for that solid advice. As for action, is it too not the Tao, as much as inaction? Silence is one half of the equation, speech the other. Both the lover and the beloved are essential components in the formula of love.


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Aleisterion
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06/05/2019 3:20 pm  

Oh? What makes it “necessary to act”? Consider the Tao, and “water”.

I know what you mean. When I was working on rising on the planes back in the '80s, I couldn't do it. I tried my damnedest; but that was the problem. I only got it to work once I learned to let go, so-to-speak. Effort wasn't the way up, letting go of myself was.


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Michael Staley
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06/05/2019 3:21 pm  

@ignant666

AC advises that all entities are to be tested, and not trusted until they prove themselves. I am suggesting taking this principle a bit further.

Could you expand on that? What do you mean by "a bit further"?


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ignant666
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06/05/2019 4:11 pm  

Entities that manifest and can "prove" themselves ought to be held in the highest suspicion. One aspect of their glamor is that Matrix "red pill" sensation of "Aha! Here is the real 'reality'!"

The entities most able to pass tests that the human mind can devise are those that are creations or projections of the mind. Accepting that entities able to pass qabalistic quizzes are valid/benign invites reinforcement of one's current reality-tunnel.


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Jamie J Barter
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06/05/2019 4:28 pm  

@dom :

"Did this law of Karma extend across lifetimes/ incarnations or remain strictly within (and not beyond) the present one? Isn’t the implication that A.C. would have addressed the ‘karmic debts’ within his own lifetime to date in terms of the magickal work he’d already undergone up to 9=2?"
--- I don’t know.

Didn't you think of asking your "teacher" (ger-oo?) that fairly obvious question then, dom? Or did you swallow everything s/he tells you unquestioningly? Or: are you suddenly struck dumb and being evasive again because of your usual paranoia about committing yourself and being "gotcha'ed" (despite often doing it yourself)? With regards to the second part, Shiva in #112927 has also corroborated A.C. would have addressed ('accounted for and discharged') his personal karmic debts "in the work of the Inner Order" (i.e. between 5=6 and 7=4), so are you saying you don't agree with that (and in which case A.C.'s 'accounting & discharge' wouldn't have then adversely affected the success of his IX workings)?

Anyway to be OT why did he say that these workings failed?
Yes as Michael has also asked, where did A.C. indicate these [workings to do with his karmic debts] failed? Ref please...

@Aleisterion :

I've nothing to gain by putting anybody on. [...]
Thank you for your reply/replies Aleisterion. Sorry if I seemed a little impatient earlier, but I knew you'd already logged on since & I suppose I was getting a little tired of asking people things in conversation and they then suddenly going silent (this sort of thing has happened to me previously --- no names, no packdrills though).

When I think of ultraterrestrials it usuaslly puts me in mind of the sort of thing discussed in "The Mothman Prophecies" by John Keel et al, although those entities are a little more sinister perhaps. I suppose Aiwass (or Lam) might even qualify also, if we think of UTs as being 'praeter-human' rather than extraterrestrial intelligences, though that is not exclusively Kenneth Grant per se. At present I am not dismissive or condemnatory or not taking you seriously nor think you are pulling my leg/ chain at all, and still think it would be a splendid idea if you introduced a new thread on the KG board about the explicitly KG connection --- after all it isn't as if you have anything to hide, is it, no vows taken or whatnot (if you happen to be worried about all the whatnot, that is).

But regarding the OT itself here, could you confirm if you are alleging that this further state of reality is and can only be accessed by [IX] sex magick at present?

N Joy


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Michael Staley
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06/05/2019 4:48 pm  

@ignant666

The entities most able to pass tests that the human mind can devise are those that are creations or projections of the mind. Accepting that entities able to pass qabalistic quizzes are valid/benign invites reinforcement of one’s current reality-tunnel.

Yes, I agree with your caution. Given that you state in a post above "I am suggesting taking this principle a bit further", I was just wondering what you had in mind by "a bit further".


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Aleisterion
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06/05/2019 4:49 pm  

@jamie

Thanks for your interest and inquiries, as well as your kind words. I suppose I could detail these events in the Grant section of the forum, but it'd be a lengthy exposition and I'd have to consider it carefully first. After all, I'm not sure what this would accomplish, and I'm very busy at the moment. It isn't just a single occurrence I'm discussing, but many in the last couple of years, kicked off by a long chain of workings through the years. The work itself, which I know gradually enabled us to get to the point at which we are experiencing this contact, always involved the Lam image, and consisted of a plethora of tantric acts. These acts were of multiple kinds; and the procedures followed not the traditional formulae, but modified over the years, with different methods added here and there, so I'd have to detail these as well. I'm not sure if this sort of explicit material would be suitable in this forum? Anyway, as for the question you ask, no, I wouldn't say that tantra is the only key to open these doors, but it is the one we have availed ourselves of.


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Shiva
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06/05/2019 5:33 pm  

al: Since 2012 or so, things have been morphing at a gradual pace, and reality as I know it has changed.

Oh, you noticed that, eh? The Mayan Calendar "ended" in 2012 and, although no changes were obvious, that year was a "watershed."

al: ... aliens, their craft at first followed by actual personal contact.

Now you've done it! This simple statement will be like poking a stick in an ant hill (Sex magic?). We have a similar situation here in the Tomé Vortex, but it's nothing we want to talk about, publickly that is.

al: I don’t think I’ll be taken seriously which is why I don’t go into too much detail: why bother?

Aha! So you've come to the same conclusion.

al: It’s my understanding that eventually the truth of all this will come out, and that this revelation will be universally received.

The key word here is "Disclosure": it's used by all the alternative news sites. It's the gradual (but accelerating) revelation of other dimensions - with exopolitics involved.

Ig: Is there actually some reason to believe that this hidden (“occult”) “reality” is the “real” “reality”? Gnosis, you say?

No reason at all. There are levels upon levels, and the 2D movie called "Reality" moves to 3D, then 4D ... Does it ever stop? Oh yes. It's called "Nothing." The Jews called it sixty-one. That's the ultimate "reality." Ask any Tibetan Lama.


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Michael Staley
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06/05/2019 7:15 pm  

@Shiva

No reason at all. There are levels upon levels, and the 2D movie called “Reality” moves to 3D, then 4D … Does it ever stop? Oh yes. It’s called “Nothing.” The Jews called it sixty-one. That’s the ultimate “reality.” Ask any Tibetan Lama.

Take an uptick, as they say on social media.


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Shiva
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06/05/2019 8:00 pm  

MS: Take an uptick, as they say on social media.

Oh goodness. I know what uptick means on a stock market graph, but I don't do any social media (unless LAShTAL counts?), so I had to look it up:

Uptick Synonyms

""accretion, accrual, addendum, addition, augmentation, boost, expansion, gain, increase, increment, more, plus, proliferation, raise, rise, step-up, supplement"

But are any of these definitions in accordance with those shady folks on "social media?"


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Jamie J Barter
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06/05/2019 8:06 pm  

@ignant666 :

Entities that manifest and can “prove” themselves ought to be held in the highest suspicion. […] The entities most able to pass tests that the human mind can devise are those that are creations or projections of the mind. Accepting that entities able to pass qabalistic quizzes are valid/benign invites reinforcement of one’s current reality-tunnel.
I also agree. But if you're going to bother to have tests for these "entities" in the first place, you have to start off somewhere and that seems a good enough place as any to begin with.

One aspect of their glamor is that Matrix “red pill” sensation of “Aha! Here is the real ‘reality’!”
Doesn't all this "red pill versus blue pill" dichotomy limit us to the "either/ or" aesthetic/ dynamic we're trying to get away from though --- what's happened to the revolutionary concept of "both/ and"? (If I had to chose just one pill I might plump for a purple, just to break up the monotony!...)

@Michael Staley :

Crowley remarked that the results of the technique were variable: sometimes they had the desired effect, sometimes not; at other times, the result might be the opposite of what was intended.
The reason for this, I think, is that in order to bring about a result, the operator is seeking to engage with strata of consciousness deeper than the individual, which have their own tides.

Is this the same thing as saying that it if it didn't work, it wasn't in accordance with the Divine Will/ Plan? If a successful result is not possible otherwise, there isn't any point in doing any other (personal, "lower" results-based) magical work at all, but discerning what the divine intention is (i.e., the 'Do What Thou Wilt') is, as 'ever', the tricky part.

@Aleisterion :

But another side-effect of our work has been contact with these ultraterrestrials: commonly referred to as extraterrestrials, but mistakenly so because they’re not from another world, they’re from this world in a far future time, making use of stealth to avoid being known. For the longest time I’ve thought of these mahatmas or ascended masters as spiritual beings, but not anymore.
Would they be evolved humans who have mastered the art (and science!) of time travel, therefore?

Since 2012 or so, things have been morphing at a gradual pace, and reality as I know it has changed. I’m not describing subjective attainment mind you, but external changes.
Do you view the manifestation of the "mandela" effect as a direct consequence of this? If so, what do you think is happening there?

The work itself, which I know gradually enabled us to get to the point at which we are experiencing this contact, always involved the Lam image
This is why I proposed the KG board might have been the best place to take it further away from discussion of the rest of the topic. But the "always" rather suggests there can't be any other alternative, and there must be surely?

@Shiva :

Now you’ve done it! This simple statement will be like poking a stick in an ant hill (Sex magic?). We have a similar situation here in the Tomé Vortex, but it’s nothing we want to talk about, publickly that is.
And now one just for Shiva! Can you at least publickly talk about this just enough to say what the "Tomé Vortex" is (assuming that it's 'spelt' correctly)? I can't seem to find it anywhere in the halls of the great god Wiki...

Y Jno


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Shiva
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06/05/2019 8:33 pm  

jb: But the “always” rather suggests there can’t be any other alternative, and there must be surely?

It seems like he was referring to always using the Lam image in his/their work. There is hope and help in other spells. If one were to delete Lam and sex magic, one can still perceive what is being discussed. How. By using "other spells."


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dom
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07/05/2019 12:41 am  

@jamiebarter

Or: are you suddenly struck dumb and being evasive again because of your usual paranoia about committing yourself and being “gotcha’ed”

Sorry to dash to pieces this image you have of me as the font of all knowledge. If I say I don't know there's no big cryptic mystery to it y'know?

(despite often doing it yourself)? With regards to the second part, Shiva in #112927 has also corroborated A.C. would have addressed (‘accounted for and discharged’) his personal karmic debts “in the work of the Inner Order” (i.e. between 5=6 and 7=4), so are you saying you don’t agree with that (and in which case A.C.’s ‘accounting & discharge’ wouldn’t have then adversely affected the success of his IX workings)?

Now you're making sense. You're saying that someone who has climbed to 5=6 and further is forced to go beyond samsara...… moreso? If that's the case then why did these sex magic workings not work? It doesn't matter. See chapter 2 AL ; lines 28-34.


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Michael Staley
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07/05/2019 12:51 am  

@jamie

Is this the same thing as saying that it if it didn’t work, it wasn’t in accordance with the Divine Will/ Plan? If a successful result is not possible otherwise, there isn’t any point in doing any other (personal, “lower” results-based) magical work at all, but discerning what the divine intention is (i.e., the ‘Do What Thou Wilt’) is, as ‘ever’, the tricky part.

There's no sense in that section of De Arte Magica of Crowley thinking along those lines. I have the impession that he simply noted a certain haphazardness that was beyond the contol of the operator, and left it at that.


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Aleisterion
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07/05/2019 12:50 pm  

Oh, you noticed that, eh? The Mayan Calendar “ended” in 2012 and, although no changes were obvious, that year was a “watershed.”

At some point after that time, back when I was on social media (I've since quit social media as I've no time for it), I noticed that all my tweets prior to 2012 had vanished. I was prolific on twitter from 2008 on, posting daily. Probably a digital error on their end, but the response from twitter came back negative: they claim not to have deleted any tweets; they were just gone. That was just one small oddity I noticed.


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Aleisterion
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07/05/2019 1:10 pm  

Would they be evolved humans who have mastered the art (and science!) of time travel, therefore?

Yes, they're highly evolved humans and they're in our time to observe and study, sometimes to guide and assist. of course I've no proof of that so it remains nothing more than a theory.

Do you view the manifestation of the “mandela” effect as a direct consequence of this? If so, what do you think is happening there?

If Elon Musk is right we're living in a simulation. He figures that the odds that we're living in base reality are something like a billion to one. How he figures that is beyond me; but he's a great deal brighter than I am, so I'll take him at his word. These "mandela effects" would be glitches in the matrix, but the source of the problem is anyone's guess. Something is clearly happening to disrupt the sequence of events, in small ways.

Of course we know that the universe itself is finite. If however there are countless parallel and divergent universes, overlapping, as many scientists think to be the case, then Liber Legis is right: reality is infinite. A problem or disruption in one universe, whether natural or artificially induced, could possibly cause some of those living therein to shift over to a parallel (or even divergent) reality. All purely speculative, obviously.

This is why I proposed the KG board might have been the best place to take it further away from discussion of the rest of the topic. But the “always” rather suggests there can’t be any other alternative, and there must be surely?

No it isn't necessary. I wrote "always" merely because that has been my method. Other methods could be made use of, no doubt.


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