"On that note I think it's time for a thread lock."
--- Your opinion is noted.

Noted, and the contents duly filed away in the mental equivalent of that most useful object: "waste paper basket"...

Incidentally, I rate the joke (pun) one-and-a-half out of ten. Sorry, dom! But you're right about the rolling bush (and it did make my lower lip start quivering away of its own accord)

What are the odds, though, that dom will nevertheless return again to honour us with his presence, participation & prose in some future posting on this self-same thread? As he (along with Los, the main record holder in this regard --- please correct me if I'm wrong) has rashly and prematurely declaimed in a similar fashion, before reappearing before.

Time for beddy-byes instead,
N Joy

"in cases of extreme emergency. the Grand Master may authorize the administration of the Universal Medicine of the IX*" ... or words closely resembling these.

Most of AC's children died young, right in front of him. And he was powerless to prevent it, each time. So much for the Universal Med.

Michael Staley's comment about Grant's feelings towards the IX*, as promoted by AC, and the lack of attention paid to the female's role (or fluid, or state of mind) is rather interesting.

It's true! All the writings are about the yang aspect. How the thrice-illumined Initiate of the Sanctuary of the Gnosis (a man) causes his mind to impress a thoughtform upon millions of tiny, competitive serpents ... which will be activated upon contact with feminine fluidity.

The mixture thereof can be applied to any talisman or symbol in order to perform magical manifestation.

Say, I've got these palm tree seeds that are guaranteed to grow healthy trees to shade your oasis in any soil: Black soil, brown soil, beige soil, desert sand, artic permafrost, moon dust, or boggy swamp land.

Of course it matters what's going on with the priestess or the one-night-stand: Her purity or toxicity (biochemically), the day of her lunar cycle, the stability (or looseness) of vile passions (hate, greed, contempt) or clearness of emotions (joyful, expanded, depth of field), as well as her specific mind-set and ability to be overshadowed by the goddess (any goddess).

Yes, these considerations become obvious when their absence is pointed out.

“ we’ll somehow just have to soldier on “
well he wiggles a good one
on occasion

out
a Y’all
a tong master at that
-----------------------------
Awesome Shiva !

Jamie i got the sense that Ignant has had his question answered ie that OTO sex magic isn't infallible hence my statement about thread lock.

You're still dragging up Los for some reason. Why?

Talking about the infallibility of magic is imo a bit rash but that does not make me totally cynical.

Consider that great figure of magic Thomas Edison. He was reviled and mocked for hid ambitions to produce a light bulb that had lasting effects. He pursued his ambition. Maybe AC failed, say a 200 times in his sex magic as documented. How about the 201st time?

The two hundred and first was an operation to get some money for the chemist/pharmacist. It failed. He had to borrow money, which he never paid back. But he did get the money, so maybe it worked.

@dom :

#Jamie i got the sense that Ignant has had his question answered ie that OTO sex magic isn’t infallible hence my statement about thread lock.
There are still at least a couple of aspects to mull over -- just why should AC gush on about it, praising it at practically every opportunity between Reuss spilling the beans (or alleging AC had) and him (AC) kicking the bucket 44 years later? And even though some people don't maintain it works others do, and the question still remains why it works on some occasions and in some circumstances but not in others. Some people have said it is down to ignoring the female element. Certainly, where and why the OTO originally got the specific male-oriented 'solar-phallic' practices of the VIII, IX and XI from has not yet been clarified either.

You’re still dragging up Los for some reason. Why?
Cuz I think he’s such a wonderful human being and I can’t stop admiring him or mentioning his name, that's why --- why’d’ja think? No, to be serious, if you read my previous post closely you would see that I make the point that Los makes a practice, a fine art, out of promising he won’t post anything further in a given thread. And then going straight ahead & doing so. I was remarking that you came second to him in that regard –-- but let’s see now, you’ve managed just over 12 hours (and that presumably includes a sleep period overnight). That’s pretty good going: you may overtake him yet!

Talking about the infallibility of magic is imo a bit rash but that does not make me totally cynical.
How often do you find magic(k) works for you & why should talking about its infallibility make you totally cynical anyway?

Consider that great figure of magic Thomas Edison. He was reviled and mocked for hid ambitions to produce a light bulb that had lasting effects. He pursued his ambition.
In spite of all Edison’s efforts though we have still yet to see a “light bulb that had lasting effects”, or an everlasting light bulb. Some put this down to the machinations of big business and a conspiracy among light bulb manufacturers to prevent such a patent.

Maybe AC failed, say a 200 times in his sex magic as documented. How about the 201st time?
Where are such figures documented thus --- and over what time period? How many times would he also have achieved success during this? Your statistics are meaningless and worthless without such further data. But if someone tosses 200 tails consecutively it’s a fairly good bet that the 201st is likely to be heads, even if chance is used to explain it. But as usual I don’t quite get your point --- everything's alright as long as you can get just the one measly success in the end?

NJoy

Note: Threads are locked because one or more participants have exceeded their envelope and become rash, or hostile, or demeaning, or vile, or some synonym of such awe-full behavior ... not because one participant has allowed boredom to creep in.

Granted I'm a bit late to the thread, I've been meaning to make a comment for some time now. Last year while revisiting Crowley's Magick in Theory and Practice, I encountered a passage in chapter IX that seems to me practically inscrutable. I will turn to it in a moment. I only hope that this is not too terribly off topic.

Michael Stately writes:

Personally I think that the techniques of Spare and Crowley can be effective, but that we don’t know enough about the conditions that would optimise success.

While that is an agreeable enough sentiment for those already convinced of the possibility of magick's working, it won't satisfy the skeptic (the Humean skeptic, not that other kind), who is rather more interested in how we can know that a causal relation between a magickal working and an effect has obtained. The question is an epistemological one. How do we know that some effect has followed from some other cause, in this case a "magickal" cause? It seems to me this question needs answered prior to questions about the optimization of antecedent conditions.

For clarity it's worth stating that I'm restricting the scope 'magick' here to capture only low magick, or magick with respect to causation between material stuffs (waving a wand and making it rain, for instance). I don't have in mind here Magick's purported or apparent causal efficacy with respect to mental states. This latter is a more difficult question within or without a naturalistic theory of mind. It is the kind of causality I'm interested in that Crowley has in mind as well in MiTP, chapter IX, where he attempts to respond to what he takes to be an obvious objection to Magick's working: suppose your intended result occurs more promptly than possible (the effect has some other antecedent cause than the magickal working itself). He says:

A few words may be useful to reconcile the general notion of Causality with that of Magick. How can we be sure that a person waving a stick and howling thereby produces thunderstorms? In no other way than that familiar to Science; we note that whenever we put a lighted match to
dry gunpowder, an unintelligibly arbitrary phenomenon, that of sound, is observed; and so forth.
We need not dwell upon this point; but it seems worth while to answer one of the objections to
the possibility of Magick, choosing one which is at first sight of an obviously “fatal” character. It
is convenient to quote verbatim from the Diary of a distinguished Magician and philosopher. “I
have noticed that the effect of a Magical Work has followed it so closely that it must have been
started before the time of the Work. E.g. I work to-night to make X in Paris write to me. I get the
letter the next morning, so that it must have been written before the Work. Does this deny that
the Work caused the effect?

“If I strike a billiard-ball and it moves, both my will and its motion are due to causes long
antecedent to the act. I may consider both my Work and its reaction as twin effects of the eternal
Universe. The moved arm and ball are parts of a state of the Cosmos which resulted necessarily
from its momentarily previous state, and so, back for ever. “Thus, my Magical Work is only one
of the cause-effects necessarily concomitant with the case-effects which set the ball in motion. I
may therefore regard the act of striking as a cause-effect of my original Will to move the ball,
though necessarily previous to its motion. But the case of magical Work is not quite analogous.
For my nature is such that I am compelled to perform Magick in order to make my will to
prevail; so that the cause of my doing the Work is also the cause of the ball's motion, and there is no reason why one should precede the other. (CF. “Lewis Carroll,” where the Red Queen
screams before she pricks her finger.)

-Crowley, MiTP 1986, 203-206 and 1994, 192-195.

He goes on to give an example, though for reasons of space I'll leave it out here. (You should read it if you are interested in this topic).

I have to admit I find this passage utterly inscrutable. It is so fraught with problematic assumptions and hidden premises that, after all this time, I can make no sense of it. The following example he gives is no help. His remaining comments that finish out the chapter look like an ad hoc philosophical deflation of the importance of the original question (little surprise there). The footnotes to this section include everything from Humean and Kantian epistemological assumptions (radically incommesurable views) as well as a specious readings of the notion of relativity in physics. The chapter does not inspire much intellectual confidence in Crowley.

I mention this passage for two reasons. 1) I'm curious if anyone can give something approaching a valid (logically valid) reading to the argument in this passage; 2) If anyone here could direct me to any other remarks on causality and magick that Crowley makes in the literature, I'd be very much appreciative.

As regards to 1, after having written this up, I have some ideas about what Crowley is up to. If I can pry myself away from other projects, I may report back. I still fear it's dogged by contradiction- and not the virtuous kind found in The Book of Lies.

Very best,
æ

ae: I’m curious if anyone can give something approaching a valid (logically valid) reading ...

"Not I," said the Hindoo Ascetic from his Tiger skin up on Kalash Mountain.

But, look, I read the quoted entry, perusing it more than studying any particular part. Like you, I found it unintelligible.

In terms of high magic (which is really mysticism) and low magic (materialization and manipulation of the matrix - the outer world), the difference is obviously boiled down to subjective and objective. However, in order to keep our balance, we find that one's subjective state can be objectively perceived by other folk. And sometimes an "acausal" operation can be subjectively seen as successful.

These polar switches between subjective and objective usually (only?) take place when some aspect of the higher mind gets involved. Terms like "meaningful coincidence" and "subjective reality" and "clairvoyance" come into play.

The lower "concrete" mind is going to crack its slab trying to figure this stuff out. Actual cause-and-effect can only be "seen" at Binah. Says so in the Crowley Scriptures.

Personally, I find this passage to be quite interesting. Crowley seems to be saying that cause and effect in MAGICK is less linear than we might think. You could dismiss the letter from Paris because rational thought tells you it was posted ere your wand waving began. But what motivated the wand-waving? Forces set into play ere those which spurred the Parisian postmark?

If Magick is “Magickal” might it not employ the retroactive?

This is one of those passages which has me admiring Crowley's sophistication and insight.

The “physics” Crowley is speaking of aren't so baffling. The “how” of working them returns us to Mick Staley's comment. O.T.O. might “sound good on paper” claiming all sorts of Sovereign Sanctuary stuff but when push comes to shove, Kings and Things go tumbling down like a house of cards.

We've got some things to learn.

Still...this doesn't mean something hasn't been hit upon.

I believe someone remarked that Crowley's understanding and experience of this “Secret” was marred by his neurotic sex-obsession. One might add his financial need to engage in embarrassing “hucksterism.” I tend to agree. Neville Goddard approaches this matter with a disregard for sex-magick, food fads etc. His approach feels much “cleaner” than Crowley.

Would folks agree that this “Magick” is a matter of adapting and adjusting Consciousness...and that Consciousness is back of the seemingly “physical” forces employed?

Consciousness, therefore, is utilizing its own projections to adjust its activity in the Projective Realm.

Once this is understood, we shift from the “lower” to the “higher” Magick.

zazas zazas nasatanada zazas
Amen
i thought i heard Luther and his Nun
going at it

at least for a moment
it seemed
as if it was just another moment
but some how this moment is not quite the same now

I see what you are getting at a bit, Kyle.

Could we say cause and effect in magick is not linear because, it, like all material phenomenon are not linear, because time is only a subjective illusion?

If all particles are fundamentally entangled, such that to effect one effects them all to some degree, and per quantum physics they are able to travel backwards in 'time' that could go a long way to explaining how magick could work (be set in motion) prior to your Working. Something in the univerise 'knew' or 'connected' with your True Self and set it in motion prior to your egoic self realizing you would/needed to do the ritual?

Not to mention the fact that observing anything, causes it to behave differently than if you are not observing it. The subconscious Will effecting matter?

https://bigthink.com/surprising-science/particle-time-travel

https://www.quora.com/Whats-the-difference-between-the-observer-effect-and-the-uncertainty-principle

@christibrany

Something in the univerise ‘knew’ or ‘connected’ with your True Self and set it in motion prior to your egoic self realizing you would/needed to do the ritua

This reminds me of what I've read about precognition. The notion that the everyday "I" is limited and only needs to function in monotonous step by step 3D linear reality however consciousness can "expand" to other I's which exist in 4D and 5D and 6D and so on.

cs: ... magick could work (be set in motion) prior to your Working.

This is a very reasonable explanation ... when referenced to the quantum physics and neurocircuit models.

d: ... other I’s which exist in 4D and 5D and 6D and so on.

Oh, those Ds! We know them as grades and planes on the Tree. A dimension (D) is not necessarily equated step by step with the A.'.A.'. grades (some Ds are split into triads of degrees, you know, the tamas, rajas, sattvas phases of that dimension), but I do agree with your parable.

Around 1915/1916 if I'm not mistaken (chapter 82 of The Confessions) AC gives two accounts of successful magic as follows;

In order to erect the temple of the New Aeon, it appeared necessary to make a thorough clearance of the rubbish of its ruined predecessors. I therefore planned and executed a Magical Operation to banish the "Dying God". I had written in "the Wizard Way":
He had crucified a toad In the Basilisk abode
and now I did so. The theory of the Operation was to identify the toad with the "Dying God" and slay it. At the same time I caused the elemental spirit of the slain reptile to serve me.
The result was immediately apparent. A girl of the village, three miles away, asked me to employ her as my secretary. I had had no intention of doing any literary work; but as soon as I set eyes on her I recognized that she had been sent for a purpose, for she exactly resembled the aforesaid toad. I therefore
engaged her to come out every morning an take dictation

.................and

Just before leaving New York I had prepared by this method an elixir whose virtue should be to restore youth, and of this I had taken seven doses. Nothing particular happened at first; and it never occurred to me that it might be imprudent to continue.
I was mistaken. Hardly had I reached my hermitage before I was suddenly seized with an attack of youth in its acutest form. All mental activity became distasteful. I turned into a mere vehicle of physical energy. I could hardly bring myself to read a book even of the lightest kind. I could not satisfy my instincts by paddling the canoe which I had imported. I spent about an hour every day in housework and cooking; the remaining fifteen hours of waking life were filled by passionately swinging an axe without interruption. I could hardly stop to smoke a pipe.
There was no self-delusion about this, as I might have persuaded myself to believe in the absence of external evidence. But this was furnished by an irrefutable monument. I wanted to build a wharf for my canoe

The murdered toad/ 'girl who resembled a toad' story is a good account of magic as, if you like, 'forced' "Jungian" synchronicity, sympathetic magic etc.

@dom

The murdered toad/ ‘girl who resembled a toad’ story is a good account of magic as, if you like, ‘forced’ “Jungian” synchronicity, sympathetic magic etc.

What do you mean by 'forced "Jungian" synchonicity?

I doubt that the toad would have seen much sympathetic about it.

d: Around 1915/1916 if I’m not mistaken (chapter 82 of The Confessions) AC gives two accounts of successful magic as follows;

Your first example is of sacrificial magic, not sex magick. We have already determined that magic can work. This thread specifically is about the efficiency (or not) of sex magic.

Your second quote is of a subjective nature. We already accepted subjective results as being functional. This thread specifically inquires into objective results in the external world.

@dom

This thread specifically inquires into objective results in the external world

Yes, and I'm afraid that toad-girl oesn't quite hack it.

@shiva

the sexual-elixir youth ritual was 'subjective'? He gave an account of how his CNS had a sudden out of control influx of vigour. He describes this as an objective investigator. I don't think it's only subjective.

@mstayley

'Forced synchronicity' is a veiled reference to master of magic Genesis P.Orridge's term 'force the hand of chance'. If you want to nit-pick then strictly speaking yes magic is alignment with events and not a 'forcing'. However AC's example of synchronicity in looking for a secretary and finding one who resembled a toad (shaking my head slowly) after he had sacrificed a toad was, some would say, a form of heightened awareness of correspondences that happen all the time all around us but obscured by the human ego. In other words from a trans-ego perspective he knew she was coming, he did the Dying God toad ritual and she came. In terms of causality it's bullshit but that's for the left-brain to chew on. Magic isn't about left brain shenanigans.

d: the sexual-elixir youth ritual was ‘subjective’? He gave an account of how his CNS had a sudden out of control influx of vigour. He describes this as an objective investigator. I don’t think it’s only subjective.

Oh, I see. An "objective investigator" reports his subjective opinions, without any encephalographic instruments being hooked up, or an independent, external observer taking his pulse or blood pressure. Pardon me, but it's time to go back to Logic 101. A person reporting on how they feel cannot be considered "objective" without some external "object" involved.

he had sacrificed a toad

At the risk of repeating myself (so soon, no less), let me remind you (all readers) that this was a sacrificial rite, not a sexual rite. We (some of us) have already agreed that magic works. This thread is dealing with "Does Sex Magic work in Objective, real-outer-world terms."

In your recent post, immediately above, you are confused about "objective" and "sex" in several dimensions. Say, you're not confusing the planes, are you?

Posted by: @dom

Just before leaving New York I had prepared by this method an elixir whose virtue should be to restore youth, and of this I had taken seven doses. Nothing particular happened at first; and it never occurred to me that it might be imprudent to continue.
I was mistaken. Hardly had I reached my hermitage before I was suddenly seized with an attack of youth in its acutest form. All mental activity became distasteful. I turned into a mere vehicle of physical energy. I could hardly bring myself to read a book even of the lightest kind. I could not satisfy my instincts by paddling the canoe which I had imported. I spent about an hour every day in housework and cooking; the remaining fifteen hours of waking life were filled by passionately swinging an axe without interruption. I could hardly stop to smoke a pipe.
There was no self-delusion about this, as I might have persuaded myself to believe in the absence of external evidence. But this was furnished by an irrefutable monument. I wanted to build a wharf for my canoe

This extract always reminded me of the advertisements in the papers in AC's time. Snake oil sales man, trying to grab consumers to buy their newest potion.... Elixir of Life ! Never put much faith in the above actually being true.

Elixir of Life ! Never put much faith in the above actually being true.

@ptoner..

"I give unimaginable joys on earth: certainty, not faith, while in life, upon death; peace unutterable, rest, ecstasy; nor do I demand aught in sacrifice."

I will bring you to victory & joy: I will be at your arms in battle & ye shall delight to slay. Success is your proof; courage is your armour; go on, go on, in my strength; & ye shall turn not back for any!

Hi P ... I am certain there is a yogic elixer that just quietly, has stunning results

ww: I am certain ...

And your certainty is based on ... what?

Posted by: @wormwood

Elixir of Life ! Never put much faith in the above actually being true.

 

@ptoner..

"I give unimaginable joys on earth: certainty, not faith, while in life, upon death; peace unutterable, rest, ecstasy; nor do I demand aught in sacrifice."

I will bring you to victory & joy: I will be at your arms in battle & ye shall delight to slay. Success is your proof; courage is your armour; go on, go on, in my strength; & ye shall turn not back for any!

 

Hi P ... I am certain there is a yogic elixer that just quietly, has stunning results

Success is your proof Wormwood, if this actually worked at the time, why did AC not repeatedly talk about it thereafter? Or even publicize it, or even use it himself! Surely it would have been revolutionary to have a product, that could do what he states. Hence why IMO its a tall tale, of which Crowley liked very frequently liked to spin. 

If I attempted to mail vials of my personal 'juices' for monetary gain and others to imbibe, in this day and age I think I would get in some trouble with the Lawr.  

Did AC ever actually mail any 'orders' out? 

I have a version of Amrita but I don't recall currently. 

@shiva

 ̶k̶n̶o̶w̶l̶e̶d̶g̶e̶     ̶p̶r̶o̶o̶f̶    err just  Judgment and all

if this actually worked at the time, why did AC not repeatedly talk about it thereafter? Or even publicize it,

maybe the world wasn't ready? still isn't

maybe conditions weren't met?

maybe bad timing?

or even use it himself!

didn't he?

Surely it would have been revolutionary to have a product, that could do what he states.

sh*t yeah ...  just imagine if the product was yourself yourself...  you can run but you can't hide... 

for reference please see a person without green greed need .......

Hence why IMO its a tall tale, of which Crowley liked very frequently liked to spin.

I have written a couple of cute lil fiction stories over time but fiction never beats the real thing

Last June's Teen Vogue published an article exhorting all the darling angels of suburbia to masturbate their way to passion and power and popularity through 'Sex Magick' -- in spite of the admonitions by Therion and P.B. Randolph and every other authority on the matter that only an Adept of high attainment would see success in such operations.

But who can say? If Jennifer thinks bad thoughts about all the mean girls on the cheer squad when she orgasms, and that bitch Becky from home room stubs her toe the day afterward, then what can anyone say to convince her it wasn't magic?

As to the efficacy of sex magic in the broader sense, UNICEF estimates that three-hundred-thousand children are born every day, and probably a comparable number of STDs transmitted.

@ptoner

That was funny about the snake oil advert. (It has the same look as that Benefit of Mr Kite poster, but that's got nothing to do with it.)

Crowley was trying to attract people.

There is similar hyperbole in the first Equinox, where AC says that the AA contains all the accumulated knowledge of the Freemasons, Rosicrucians, Martinists, Spartanists, Hindus, Dindus, Buddhists, Bishops, Baptists, Bastards, Buggerers and Bingo-callers.

HOWEVER despite that hyperbole, I do believe in the power of sex magic. It is the greatest thing Crowley ever rationalized.

Pasquale was unable to verbalize his ideas coherently, but Crowley did, and it really works.

Posted by: @wormwood

maybe the world wasn't ready? still isn't

That sounds like an excuse for something that didn't exist to me, in the way it was described in that passage.

Posted by: @wormwood

or even use it himself!

didn't he?

Do you have any diary entries please as I don't recall any after this date, in which he mentions a similar elixir with the exact same effects.

Posted by: @wormwood

for reference please see a person without green greed need .......

I'm at a loss to understand this comment. Are you saying AC never tried to use magick for money.... If so,definitely I think you are incorrect.

Posted by: @wormwood

fiction never beats the real thing

Yeah, that's true, just waiting patiently in the facts being presented.

As for sex magick working, I am not questioning that, just this resulting elixir that had miraculous properties. Maybe it did work, maybe he couldn't repeat the process. 

pt: or even use it himself!

ww: didn't he?

Yes, he did. As reflected in his virtually continual expression in his books and diaries through the years. However, he continued to grow older ... judging by the pictures taken of him throughout the years. And then he died.

So, it seems the terms, Elixir of Life, Elixir of Immortality, Universal Medicine, etc are perhaps metaphors, or even wishful thinking. The Epiphany of Youth AC described (quoted somewhere upstream) caught his attention in reference to his experiment with magickal medicines, but seven or eight attempts producing a single result (that seems to have not been repeated or repeatable) might make one wonder about causality, acausality, and/or random epiphanies.

"Amrita, Amrit or Amata is a word that literally means "immortality" and is often referred to in ancient Indian texts as nectar. "Amṛta" is etymologically related to the Greek ambrosia and carries the same meaning. Its first occurrence is in the Rigveda, where it is considered one of several synonyms for soma, the drink of the devas." -wiki

As I remember the process/physiology from my early reading in Hindu texts (translated into English, of course. I can't read or write foreign squiggle writ), the dew or nectar is secreted by the pineal gland. It then flows down through certain channels or a duct to emerge through an aperture in the palate (on the midline, near the border between the hard palate and soft palate).

This aperture (orifice, opening, doorway, hole) can be located by anyone, simply by poking one's tongue-tip up onto the roof of their mouth and exploring the midline just behind the "drop-off" point of the hard/bony palate. One will find an irregular surface (a slot).

So this dew constantly drips (slowly, of course). But the aperture is located in such a place that the dew normally runs down the throat to be burned up in the fires of the stomach (hydrochloric acid).

Thus the yogi or yogini is encouraged to to place the tip of his/her tongue behind the aperture ... sealing off the throat and allowing/forcing/channeling the nectar to flow forward and down to the floor of the moth, where it will be resorbed back into the entire body (sublingual absorption).

It is implied that, in meditation, the pineal secretion is increased (what with all that dharana focused on the third eye & crown), and so one doesn't need to constantly glue their tongue to the roof of their mouth, although experiments in this practice are not discouraged, but rather it (the tongue position) should be a natural extension of one's asana.

There is also some evidence linking the dew to HGH (Human Growth Hormone) but I am unable to cite such evidence without further research, which I am not sufficiently motivated at this time.

This all sounds very medical, mystical, and wonderful, but (like AC) yogis also grow old, infirm, and die. So maybe there's hope and help in other spells.

The supreme secret of the IX* (the indirect topic of this thread) merely puts an entirely different spin on the ancient yogic practice. Two yogis/yoginis become involved, and the elixir is composed of secretions from the lower chakras. There is a subtle linkage between these lower chakras and the head centers, and it is this link that would (theoretically) bring everything into properly alignment and function.

I wish you good luck in your experiments. Anyone who passes 120 years of age might be qualified to issue insight and instructions ... assuming they are not brain-dead and living on borg-life support.

pt: Hence why IMO its a tall tale, of which Crowley liked very frequently liked to spin.

Although several "what ifs" have been postulated in AC's defense, I would suugest that, due to his mental concentration on "youth," that he entered a "youthful dhyana" as an epiphany. In Anglo, that means he concentrated on the goal of his experiment, then became discouraged. It certainly sounds like he approached the quiting point, and he probably did quit (even for an instant, it is enough to "let go" of the result).

Then The Return of the Current lifted up his spirits. Although he spun this tale afterwards, along with many others, we find no evidence of its repetition or repeatability. I have a bag-full of similar tales. Magickal incidents wherein cause and effect appear to be linked. Some lesser siddhis seem to be repeatable. I have made it a practice to inform others before the siddhi is exercised. Thus there are witnesses who can testify on my behalf regarding repeatability in the Lossless Los Legal Court of Lost appeals.

But the really astounding tales don't seem to be repeatable. The ones that happen once, and are not repeatable. Of course, if more than one person was conscious and involved, there would be a witness, or many, and they'd be foolish to publickly describe their event, due to the laughing and/or accusations of satanism.

Crowley's self-described experiment was also subjectively self-verified, so it's all up in the air, isn't it? Would you buy a vial of used fluids from this man?

Posted by: @ptonerThis extract always reminded me of the advertisements in the papers in AC's time. Snake oil sales man, trying to grab consumers to buy their newest potion.... Elixir of Life ! Never put much faith in the above actually being true.  

The way the elixir is spoken of by Crowley it seems Burroughs developed similar if different appearing ideas.

It's not a grand discovery that the immortal elixir secret at IXth degree isn't everlasting youth of the physical body. The amount of effort some have devoted to disproving the IXth degree secret is rather surprising considering most don't take it as literal. Not quite sure who they're trying to convince by disproving the IXth degree non-secret. It's tilting at windmills as even the most basic normie knows that the simple act and related games can be enough to put spring in someone's step at any age.

Immortality appears to most readers in this context to be metaphoric and the effects of the elixir through natural expression symbolic of common ideas related to achieving immortality.  Although, that makes it more than a literary high when considering some of the underlying occult ideas on the nature of thought and consciousness.

The story is that Crowley, a committed magician who sampled every form of every magical tradition, came to the conclusion (ahem) that his activity with boyfriend-medium in the middle eastern deserts and whilst 'tripping balls' on powerful hashish instigated a totally  unexpected visitation from the Secret Chiefs.  Their message was that sex provides a direct access to magickal zones whereas all of the traditional methods are slower.  With that his sex-magic game was on.   Ignant seems to think that AC was a sex-addict in denial and that all this revelation was just AC's rationalization to  avoid a normal long term intimate relationship like any normal human being and instead amass 'sex magic partners'.   Furthermore  those  workings apparently didn't have any apparent tangible result...although I've never actually fully studied AC's cause- (possible) effect magical diary to be able to verify this. 

An  example of  a (possible) tangible result  I can think of  was the Goetic evocation of the Great Duke of Hell, Bune (this was well before the episode in the desert) who helped Bennet get some money to get out of the harsh weather conditions of the UK.      

d: sex provides a direct access to magickal zones whereas all of the traditional methods are slower.

Well, this would be reasonable and customary for a person who had already demonstrated a powerful and insatiable sex drive.

Ignant seems to think that AC was a sex-addict in denial...

I guess I missed that (from Ignant), but my short paragraph of a single sentence, above, more or less says the same thing.

AC also proclaimed that said IX* methods would heal the sick, (raise the dead?), and make the little girls go out of their head. It was also hailed as the source the True, Universal Brotherhood of Man. During the rest of his life, his children and some associates died (except for one child later in life ... who was raised in absentia from his father). The True Brotherhood seems to have been limited to a handful of brothers and sisters, while all other Brotherhoods climbed on their horse as fast as they can.

Since it's been stated in other places, let me remind you that my humble vehicle received the IX* in full ceremony, in 1965, not by being handed a piece of paper, and it has been my fortune to practice that formula over the course of several decades. I would not discount the potency of IX* combined with Abramelin talismans, for I will testify as to some (two) very tricky situations, seemingly impossible to overcome, that were resolved in such a manner. But then one must ask, "Was it the IX* or the Talismans, or are both required?" Since said Talismans have show themselves to be effective, alone, in simple matters, the IX* becomes questionable ... thus the OT of this thread.

Now if we move over to the left hand path (being the yin stream of the so-called White Brotherhood, and not the left hand of reconstituted ego) and consult Alice Bailey, we find that she has a slightly different opinion (as attributed to the Tibetan Master who was writing through her). I cannot remember the exact words, but the concept is simple enough so that even a child might understand the paraphrase I have created ...

PARAPHRASE

The tantric techniques of so-called sexual magic are essentially a black art, for they are bound up in influencing matter. The true sexual polarization is internal, and it involves the relationship between the initiate and his/her Solar Angel.

[see Atu VI & Atu XIV, as applied internally, for example]

END PARAPHRASE

d: a (possible) tangible result ... Bennett get ... out of the ... UK.

Was this some form of a reverse Brexit? A Bennexit? <I jest>  Yes, we've all read of that adventure. But AC's life (as well as our own lives) are filled with possible cause-and-effect scenarios. These are/were outcomes that could be explained by using other cause-and-effect illustrations.

PS (The angels came to me and revealed secret information that is not secret, saying, "Go ahead. Risk a double-post, so that the information is clearly revealed.")

This head center and lower centers combo is symbolized or immortalized in the saying, "Servants of the Star & the Snake." The head center is a composite of 3 centers in the head, and it shines forth in a vision of a Star, which is the Silver Star, Sirius, and Da'ath all wrapped up in the highest vision to which we can attain ... and still retain our mind and ego. To merge with that Star is to transcend form, name, or separation of self. The Tibetan guys call it The Primary Clear Light. Some Hindoo Tantric fellows might suggest the usual sexual practice, with dharana on the 3rd eye or crown, or generally in the head, at the approach to the summit ... and that's not a bad place to begin.

The lower centers (root & sacral) are both involved in Life Force and Reproduction. Due to their association with the kundalini, the dreaded fire-serpent, the lower functions are symbolized by a serpent ... our first circuit totem who is only interested in survival - of the indivdual as well as the species.

So between these two territories, one a celestial brightness, the other a fiery dragon, there's this path (Yeah, it is depicted in the middle pillar of the Tree of Life). Never mind right now that there is also a network of side-paths (see the whole Tree and/or the caduceus.

The IX* involves the cultivation of an open pathway, so that "higher consciousness" might control or direct the fiery serpent. Theoretically, the resulting fluids would be enriched by the source amrita secreted by the pineal gland, and could thus be used for various magickal purposes.

Crowley indicated that any dork or lamedame could have possession of the IX* secret (perhaps by Googling it?), but they would be unable to make it work because of (what?) lack of preparation, preliminary initiation, or whatever is missing.

What is missing is the absence of a clear pathway ... which can be defined as a "cluttered forest." A few examples of what might cause clutter: Defective DNA, birth trauma, growing up in Afghanistan or other war zone, Religious and Social indoctrination, a crazy unbalanced diet, addiction to substances that relieve discomfort but provide no insight, an "us versus them" environment (this list is only partial and has not been reviewed by any government agency).

That was just a "short" list of the internal enemies that must be overcome by the initiate is his or her climb, and in the corresponding cluttered pathway inside.

It's been hinted at in docs, and in discussions here on LAShTAL, that a 6=5 is not necessarily a IX*, but it would help him or her. And it's also a postulation that a IX* is not necessarily a 6=5. Let's forget the Roman numerals and the funny equations. What they mean is ... a person is not going to be able to correctly practice sex magic unless he or she or both are operating out of Geburah. Hopefully, they will both be riding the 6th, electric, circuit ... which is called Metaprogramming, which means "changing the program."

The main clutter in the tunnel of love is when one or both parties are exerting their mind in order to control the outcome.

"But that's what we're supposed to do," said the weenie (implying mind control over matter).

Yes, weenie, you are correct ... in and as a preliminary section of the rite.But when Fohat (the elemental Lord of Fire) puts a flamethrower in your tunnel, there are different conditions prevailing. So, if one can handle that, while keeping his or her ego out of the way, then maybe they will have a chance at making sex-magic really work.

There is also the consideration of sex magic in relation to the HGA. If two people get attuned at the right frequency, the so-called HGA will manifest and give instructions. Crowley did this all the time. his wife or consort would channel the info. This happens, a statement I make through experience. But this is not IX* stuff ... yet it is Magick in its highest sense.

I find it curious that Crowley wrote the foreword for The Goetia book yet we have no evidence of him using it other than via Bune….or do we?

@dom

Crowley drew pictures of many Goetic spirits that he worked with; some (all?) of these are included in this edition of the "Goetia book". He and George Cecil Jones evoked Buer (not Buné).

Buer yes am corrected.     Crowley's actual sketches are in that book?  

Anyway that's all we have then in terms of his accounts of such work , sketches and the Buer story. 

Posted by: @dom

Crowley's actual sketches are in that book?  

Yes. Interestingly, the introduction to that edition of the Goetia states that

In 1924 E.V. Crowley conducted further magical operations with the spirit Belial, whom he referred to as "my own special ΔAIMON."

I think that the quotation that I gave may actually be referring to AC's working with the Abramelin demon Belial; the previous operation it mentioned was his use of the Abramelin talismans to evoke Belial as part of his war against Mathers.

d: find it curious that Crowley wrote the foreword for The Goetia book yet we have no evidence of him using it other than via Bune….or do we?

He also translated Levi's book into English for his 7=4. I always thought that was rather shallow, even though he claimed Eliphas as his prior (c) incorporation.

However, he literally jumped from 5=6 to 8=3, with a formal stop at 7=4 (with Jones). So he had to "go back" and fill in 6=5 (which resulted for us in Pyramidos).

He explains in One Star in Sight that the grades are not always earned or attained in strict succession, and that the subject is too complex to discuss in his brief outline.

Anyone can read any biography or hagiography of the Master Therion, especially with reference to my notes (above), and easily see how this "complex" Wu-wei stuff (not woo-woo) works out in daily life (when measured over months and years).

I have perused the Goetia. I have never used it in any way. Crowley might not have used it himself. Maybe dabbled? After all, he had access to Abramelin, so why mess around with "the rituals of the old time" which were declared Black (see Liber AL).

I like Abramelin talismans ... if they are operated by the Angels. The last one I used, 2 years ago, was to protect a sick puppy during one of those Schumann Resonance whiteouts, combined with a Coronal Mass Ejection, plus really bad news on the astral plane. He survived. So is that applying spiritual force to material ends?

Or is that why we need the A.'.A.'. to be a mixture of the White and Yellow Schools, as defined by Aleister Crowley in Magick Without Tears?

Then AC went off to Boleskine to do the Abramelin thing, but ended up in the wasteland of North africa, where an Angel told him how the HGA operation should be done. (see Liber 418 - VIIIth Aethyr).

I am not clear on why he abandoned Boleskine (thus a disruption of the Abramelin operation). I could look it up, but maybe some scholar can remind me here, so every reader can get the picture.

I did the VIIIth Aethyr thing. 1974. Try it, you'll like it.

That's the way I see it:

VIIIth Aethyr
Abramelin
Goetia

soz cites" In 1924 E.V. Crowley conducted further magical operations with the spirit Belial, whom he referred to as "my own special ΔAIMON."

This is very interesting. A Daimon is "An inferior deity, such as a deified hero. An attendant spirit; a genius."

This matches some of the HGA definitions. But we know AC was dedicated to Aiwass, ho he identified as a Sumerian Demon-god ( once).

But both these references fall short of what (I think) folks should be looking for. The story now comes full circle back to the Devas and the Asuras, the Demons and the Angels, the Aliens from outer space (good/bad), and things that (I think) dwell in other dimensions, but sometimes spill over, or purposely come, into our space/time continuum.

These can be scary concepts. That's why the curriculum calls for "Preparation of Talismans" (Atu XIII) and "Evocation" (Atu XV). One really needs to have a firm grip on Death and The Devil before entering Sun City via the front door.

soz quote: ... his use of the Abramelin talismans to evoke Belial as part of his war against Mathers.

You bumped my memory. If I remember properly now, AC left Boleskine to assist Mathers when the R.C. council was in an uprising against their Chief. After that he destroyed the chief and the order.

Heavy duty stuff. this is an example of "the war on the causal plane" to which I sometimes make reference.

The mystic will find the same battle raging within on his or her interior journey.

Re OP

By "AC/OTO-style 'sex magick'" or "IX working", i mean:
a) a male magician having vaginal intercourse with a female (who may not be aware that an act of magick is going on)
b) while thinking/chanting about a desired outcome in the material world (eg, money, good health, or the love of a particular person (typically not the person one is fucking)), followed by
c) consuming the combined sexual fluids after orgasm.

Anyone who reads AC's sex magick diaries cannot fail to notice that this method virtually always fails its master and proclaimer, and the few "successes" can best be attributed to wishful thinking/special pleading. My results have not been any better.

Yeah I reckon it worked for me.  I wanted contact/help from the God Thoth and I think I received this.  

I don't think we can classify "contact/help from the God Thoth" as "a desired outcome in the material world", can we?

@ignant666

I don't think we can classify "contact/help from the God Thoth" as "a desired outcome in the material world", can we?

Well no, however if I may ask, what were your sex magick sessions for?  Money?  Malicious damage?   If it was say money then I would've expected you to have take direct action like a bet, an investment or  the creation of a business.  

Posted by: @dom

thinking/chanting about a desired outcome in the material world (eg, money, good health, or the love of a particular person

This is a fine description of Black Magic. Nobody around here would do such a thing, so you'll get no honest replies.

Posted by: @dom

Yeah I reckon it worked for me.  I wanted contact/help from the God Thoth and I think I received this.  

But this is not "success" in the material world.

Posted by: @dom

I would've expected you to have take direct action like a bet, an investment or  the creation of a business.  

Without disclosing too much of Ignant's financial position, he told me that he "had good luck" in obtaining grants (money) in his profession.

Without disclosing too much of Ignant's financial position, he told me that he "had good luck" in obtaining grants (money) in his profession.

Any reductive materialists in the house?   Begone ye mockers. 

I can't recall very often doing any sex magick, or other magick, around getting money, or other material things.

Mostly, my sex magick goals were more tantric- driving energy up into the head, and out the top of it. That works (as i said in the OP of the thread, lo these many moons ago).

Certainly, however, many forms of "low magick" were arguably involved in my 20-some years of "good luck" in getting Federal research grant money, which is very hard indeed to get. Most involved my Brazilian wife, and her mother, doing various macumba things; i was a mere passive beneficiary.

Upon reflection: Oh, and i suppose there is that whole "divine guidance" business (as to luck in my profession), but that was at most a very indirect result of sex magick/ritual magick.

@ignant
Despite the clear evidence this method is a dud, AC persists- one might almost get the sense he was what is now called a "sex addict", cloaking his neurotic need for coupling devoid of intimacy in spiritual gobbledygook ("gobble de [the] gook" being an old slang term (that has come to mean "nonsense") for "c" above).
Was Crowley really 'neurotic' i.e. 'hung up' about sex? A truly 'hung up' person wouldn't dare publish the poetry that he did where he calls a spade a spade on sexual matters.   

. Does everyone have to settle down and produce offsprings? Regardie produced a poem by Crowley in his bio where he states that he loved every lover he ever had. How do you know his love life was "devoid of intimacy"?

Posted by: @dom

How do you know his love life was "devoid of intimacy"?

He was a prolific author, yes? Loneliness is one of the most predominant themes of his work throughout his entire life.

His tendency towards sex partners whom he could other/objectify in various ways ("Scarlet Woman", ugly prostitute, "Negro", and of course those he idealized, doing the same in reverse) does not speak to a capacity for intimacy. His sexuality sought transgression, not closeness or connection.

Posted by: @ignant666

can't recall very often doing any sex magick, or other magick, around getting money, or other material things.

Except for the "very often" modifier, you have now declared yourself a White Lodge guy.

If there are any "reductive materialists in the house," I say we burn them at the stake and sell their ashes to potential reductive materialists who are NOT (LA) in the house in order to gather gold.

Posted by: @ignant666

Mostly, my sex magick goals were more tantric- driving energy up into the head, and out the top of it. That works

Correct. But why are you disclosing the real, true, secret of secrets in a public place?  Oh, I know: Nobody can understand such an aligned practice unless they are already somewhat aligned. So it's okay, you need not report to The Grand Tribunal.

Posted by: @ignant666

Most involved my Brazilian wife, and her mother, doing various macumba things; i was a mere passive beneficiary.

You are allowed to harbor familiar spirits (in this case, family members).

Posted by: @ignant666

Loneliness is one of the most predominant themes of his work throughout his entire life.

The so-called Confessions was originally titled (by AC) The Spirit of Solitude. What else do you want?