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hadgigegenraum
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@sangewanchuck56 

Nice Job!


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @katrice
 
Skepticism is healthy, and essential in magickal practice, but if your approach is to start looking at everything from the viewpoint of "Let's see how much this sucks!", you're going to screen out everything but what sucks. 

How does that quote go?  What the thinker thinks, the prover proves.

In relation to that I didn't provide a reference to the Crowley-Jane Wolfe episode I mentioned.  It's an interesting account of Crowley's skepticism.   Here it is belatedly;

 

From The Confessions Chapter 89 ;

 

Jane Wolfe was full of fixed ideas about America, of the regular spreadeagle stuff. (“Los Angeles is the modern Athens”!! This actual phrase is hers.) The stars and stripes stood for wisdom, virtue and truth; for spirituality, good manners, progress, civilization — you know, it goes on till somebody faints. Woodrow Wilson was the reincarnation of Jesus Christ and the Hearst newspapers the standard of literary excellence.

Her aspiration was utterly pure, unselfish and all-absorbing. She disdained to count the cost or to seek reward. But alas, in her eagerness she assumed that so long as she ran, it did not much matter which was she was going. She had fallen in with a crowd of charlatans of the vulgarest sort, sheer frauds without knowledge of any one fact about Magick and only concerned to dupe. She accordingly claimed to have received messages from several “Masters on the other side”. She showed me this stuff. I have read a lot of rubbish in my life, but nothing in the same street, city, county, country or continent which would stand a moment's comparison for sheer asininity. These “masters” did not even take the trouble to invent plausible accounts of themselves; e.g., there would be a Persian guide named Schmidt and her Chinese master who issued instructions which were on the level of, and quite indistinguishable from, Sunday School exaltation. Her pet persuasion was that she was to travel eastward for three years and after some adventure with a “M. Joperal”, an Englishman (the well-known Shropshire or the Essex branch of that typically English tribe), she would proceed to Japan where her destined soul-mate was waiting to marry her, the climax being the birth of a Messiah.

Amid this steaming midden of putrefying manure, I detected rare posies. She had got two or three symbols both intelligible and indicative of initiation.

During her first few weeks at the abbey, every day was one long battle. I hacked through her barbed wire of aggressive axioms. I forced her to confess the incongruity of her assertions. I drilled holes in her vanity and self-satisfaction. I dug her critical spirit out of its corner, and made her clean off {864} the rust, sharpen the edge and the point, and polish the steel till it shone. When she saw it, she feared it all the more; but I forced her to grasp it and use it. At every stroke she split the skull of one of her dearest delusions and shrieked as if its destruction were her own. She dropped the sword every time my eye was off her, but I always made her pick it up and do some more damage, till at last she found out that killing falsehoods, never so smiling and so like her idea of herself, did not hurt her, but on the contrary freed her, and she also found that the harder she struck at truth the stronger it stood. So in the end, she learnt the value of the critical spirit and made it one of her regular weapons.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Michael Staley
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Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

It's an interesting account of Crowley's skepticism.

Scepticism about what?


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @michael-staley
Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

It's an interesting account of Crowley's skepticism.

Scepticism about what?

If you read all of the section I quoted from The Confessions Chapter 89 this may give you a clue. 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Michael Staley
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MANIO - it's all in the egg
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Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

If you read all of the section I quoted from The Confessions Chapter 89 this may give you a clue. 

Yes, I read it. In the quote, Crowley is ridiculing Jane Wolfe's messages from "Masters on the other side". He is sceptical not because he finds the possibility of such messages as preposterous in itself, but because of the content of those particular messages which he finds asinine and contradictory.

It would be strange if Crowley were to be sceptical about the possibilily of such communications, given events such as the communication of The Book of the Law, the Abuldiz Working, the Paris Working, the Amalantrah Working, and more.

If by scepticism you mean the anti-occult scepticism as propounded by Los and Erwin, then I think it unlikely that Crowley was a sceptic in that sense.

 


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @michael-staley

 

Yes, I read it. In the quote, Crowley is ridiculing Jane Wolfe's messages from "Masters on the other side". He is sceptical not because he finds the possibility of such messages as preposterous in itself, but because of the content of those particular messages which he finds asinine and contradictory.

It would be strange if Crowley were to be sceptical about the possibilily of such communications, given events such as the communication of The Book of the Law, the Abuldiz Working, the Paris Working, the Amalantrah Working, and more.

If by scepticism you mean the anti-occult scepticism as propounded by Los and Erwin, then I think it unlikely that Crowley was a sceptic in that sense.

 

No I'm not going all Los and Erwin on you. The second paragraph in my quote is more important because it's about the aftermath of getting rid of dumb spiritual contacts with "Masters".  

I dug her critical spirit out of its corner, and made her clean off  the rust, sharpen the edge and the point, and polish the steel till it shone.  

 

So e.g. when elitemachinery asserts that a particular Aerosmith track is amazing because it's the result of the vocalist's sex magick I'm thinking a) what about the other flapping flared-trouser wearing dinosaurs who had success but never did sex magick b) Tyler didn't even write the riffs anyway he was just the singer.    

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

So e.g. when elitemachinery asserts that a particular Aerosmith track is amazing because it's the result of the vocalist's sex magick I'm thinking a) what about the other flapping flared-trouser wearing dinosaurs who had success but never did sex magick b) Tyler didn't even write the riffs anyway he was just the singer.    

What @elitemachinery actually said was;

The Rolling Stones Mick Jagger and Aerosmith Steve Tyler have used sex magick.
 
They've spoken about it to varying degrees.
 
It worked for them to create rock n roll legacies.
 
But they also did the work of recording music and touring etc.
 
And they were working in a context that could create the wealth and lifestyles they desired.
 
(It probably helps to be a rock star and have a few willing participants to practice with on occasion.)
 
 
Basically Dom, the way you are phrasing your "skepticism" simply reads like someone reacting on social media and leaving a quick comment without taking the time to see what the author means, how they see it.
 
What's more, speaking as someone who has taken this journey with you once or twice, you ask a question or respond with what you claim is your "skeptical mind", and don't seem to respond at all when your "skepticism" as you call it is addressed with consideration.
 
Personally, I do not see you practicing true skepticism at all, at least not in the scientific or philosophical sense. 
 
I wouldn't try to don the "skeptic" hat just yet, until you're clear on the distinction between cynicism, materialism (Los' view), and skepticism (Thomas Moore, Robert Anton Wilson) and can frame your own comments with brevity and clarity.
 
Although, I must say I am a fan of your cynical trolling 🙂
 
 
 
 

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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katrice
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Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

I wouldn't try to don the "skeptic" hat just yet, until you're clear on the distinction between cynicism, materialism (Los' view), and skepticism (Thomas Moore, Robert Anton Wilson) and can frame your own comments with brevity and clarity.

For clarification, I was referring to the Moore/RAW type that you refer to here.  Skepticism,not rationalist materialism or cynicism, and making a distinction between skepticism and cynicism, particularly the in the sense of latter when it's aimed at supporting a foregone conclusion. 


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Alan_OBrien
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Yes it does for me.


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katrice
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Posted by: @alan_obrien

Yes it does for me.

Would you like to elaborate a little more on that?  Do you use the method mentioned in the original post of another approach?


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @katrice
Posted by: @alan_obrien

Yes it does for me.

Would you like to elaborate a little more on that?  Do you use the method mentioned in the original post of another approach?

Me too, I'd love to hear about this.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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