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Dragon Rouge


 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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I'm not 100% certain if you could consider them Typhonian, but the Dragon Rouge (Ordo Draconis et Atri Adamantis) certainly fascinates me. Their magick system revolves around the principle underlined in the formula called G.O.T.A.

G= Goetic Kabbalah; the qliphothic spheres used as a path to apotheosis. This process is viewed as the symbolical crossing of the Abyss, called the tree of Daat (knowledge of good and evil). That tree as told by Kenneth Grant, is not a different tree from the Tree of Life, but the same tree at night.
Only initiaites of the Outer Branch begin to work with such powers.

O= Odinic Runology; representive of Odin's journey through the underworld. The principles of which can be found in Uthark - Nightside of The Runes.

T= Tantra; the Draconic tantra used within the order seems to go beyond the basic right-hand form. The tantra as used by the Order in their words "We are using a rare and dark system in which the kundalini reaches beyond Sahasrara. This does not lead to Samadhi but to Kaivalya where the adept becomes like a god"

A= Alchemy; i know very little of the Typhonian Alchemy practiced by the Dragon Rouge, except that the goal is to obtain an "elixer of eternal life" known as the Black Diamond.

The reason i posted was out of curiosity. What do other Thelemites view of the Order (though their teachings, imo, do not contradict mainstream Thelema's, as well as the strong Typhonian Thelemite presence with the order) Well, i appreciate any other comments, thoughts, or information on this group, whom i show utmost respect for.

93
Noxifer


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 Anonymous
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I've looked at one of their books before and the "spells" were moreof what you'd find in some teenage witch's spellbook rather than a guide to transcendal magick. Not my cup of tea.


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algoul
(@algoul)
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I'm sorry to displease you but I do not think that they are typhonian and thelemite at all
but this is you know my point of view, based in experiences, if you want to search out do by yourself
🙂
regards


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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What is it that made them not/typhonian in ur opinion? What distinguishes their practices from typhonian practices?


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 Anonymous
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Is this a group from that Thelemic boardgame?


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 Anonymous
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No this is a magick society based mainly in sweden but with offshots in germany, italy and poland amongst other nations.

They are quite nice and quite disciplined people working very seriously.

I have worked slightly with them, and while their work has a different flavor than that of Grant (whom I prefer) I fail to find anything making them non-typhonian - but then again taxonomy has never been my forte.

Best regards
Noxlux


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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"noxlux" wrote:
No this is a magick society based mainly in sweden but with offshots in germany, italy and poland amongst other nations.

They are quite nice and quite disciplined people working very seriously.

I have worked slightly with them, and while their work has a different flavor than that of Grant (whom I prefer) I fail to find anything making them non-typhonian - but then again taxonomy has never been my forte.

Best regards
Noxlux

93

Thank you

You are by far the first person other than myself to give a positive reference to the Dragon Rouge. Their magickal system and use of the Qliphoth is NOT at all evil, but rather a beautiful and illuminating system. Although, i dont see their system as necessarily being different than that of Grant's, just a bit more detailed.


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RuneLogIX
(@runelogix)
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As a non Thelemite i can't tell you a Thelemite perspective. But as a rune magician and sorcerer I have read Uthark and a couple of their magazines and I like everything they do, a lot. Some of the Kemetic stuff is cheesy but all Kemetic work is a bit kooky IMO (like me!).

Force and Fire is not metaphorical. In Prophetes Veritas Venit.


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 Anonymous
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"runelogix" wrote:
As a non Thelemite i can't tell you a Thelemite perspective. But as a rune magician and sorcerer I have read Uthark and a couple of their magazines and I like everything they do, a lot. Some of the Kemetic stuff is cheesy but all Kemetic work is a bit kooky IMO (like me!).

93

Kemetic... as in their work with Khepri-Ra, the god of the dying moon? So you are affiliated with them, or know someone who is? I appreciate runulgy and sorcery alike, (neither of which i feel contradicts the Law of Thelema) and it seems that both hold a heavy current in DR.


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RuneLogIX
(@runelogix)
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"Noxifer616" wrote:
"runelogix" wrote:
As a non Thelemite i can't tell you a Thelemite perspective. But as a rune magician and sorcerer I have read Uthark and a couple of their magazines and I like everything they do, a lot. Some of the Kemetic stuff is cheesy but all Kemetic work is a bit kooky IMO (like me!).

93

Kemetic... as in their work with Khepri-Ra, the god of the dying moon?

Kemetic as in http://www.ecauldron.com/reconegyptfaq.php

So you are affiliated with them, or know someone who is? I appreciate runulgy and sorcery alike, (neither of which i feel contradicts the Law of Thelema)

Whoa there, hold on for a minute, whats this Law of Thelema that "can't be contradicted?"

and it seems that both hold a heavy current in DR.

I'm not a member, I don't know anyone that is (I've never been to the countries that they operate out of). They have a website, if you want to "join" the DR I'm sure you could send someone an email on their website.

Force and Fire is not metaphorical. In Prophetes Veritas Venit.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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Kemetic as in http://www.ecauldron.com/reconegyptfaq.php

That's not what i meant. They seem to ultr-emphasize the god Khepri.

Whoa there, hold on for a minute, whats this Law of Thelema that "can't be contradicted?"

"Do what thou wilt..."

I'm not a member, I don't know anyone that is (I've never been to the countries that they operate out of). They have a website, if you want to "join" the DR I'm sure you could send someone an email on their website.

I've been on their sitte. It's very well made and informative. As far as joining goes, ithey dont mentio the age restriction thus i assume it's 18.


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RuneLogIX
(@runelogix)
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"Noxifer616" wrote:

Kemetic as in http://www.ecauldron.com/reconegyptfaq.php

That's not what i meant. They seem to ultr-emphasize the god Khepri.

Whoa there, hold on for a minute, whats this Law of Thelema that "can't be contradicted?"

"Do what thou wilt..."

Thats not what I asked, I hate responses like that.

Force and Fire is not metaphorical. In Prophetes Veritas Venit.


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RuneLogIX
(@runelogix)
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"Noxifer616" wrote:

Whoa there, hold on for a minute, whats this Law of Thelema that "can't be contradicted?"

"Do what thou wilt..."

Thats not what I asked, I hate responses like that.

Force and Fire is not metaphorical. In Prophetes Veritas Venit.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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Noxifer616:
"The reason i posted was out of curiosity. What do other Thelemites view of the Order (though their teachings, imo, do not contradict mainstream Thelema's, as well as the strong Typhonian Thelemite presence with the order) Well, i appreciate any other comments, thoughts, or information on this group, whom i show utmost respect for."

Well, there are some thelemites that are members of Dragon Rouge, and I have not found any problems with combining thelema and the qliphothic initiation.

kuniggety wrote:

"I've looked at one of their books before and the "spells" were moreof what you'd find in some teenage witch's spellbook rather than a guide to transcendal magick. Not my cup of tea."

Which book was that? Does not sound like a book from DR.


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Palamedes
(@palamedes)
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There is a book about Dragon Rouge by Kennet Granholm, called Embracing the Dark: The Magic Order of Dragon Rouge - Its Practice in Dark Magic and Meaning Making published by Abo Akademi Press.


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 Anonymous
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They seem interesting, but their website puts me off by going on about how dark they are...


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 Anonymous
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From their web site:
The philosophy of the dark side is represented by the left hand path and its ideology. The left hand path is founded around a philosophy which defines two main spiritual paths. One is the right hand path. It is evident in most forms of religion and mass movements. Its method is the magic of the light and its goal includes that the individual melts together with God. The other path is the left hand path. It emphasizes the unique, the deviant and the exclusive. Its method is dark magic and antinomianism (going against the grain). The goal is to become a god.

The response is obvious, but:

"Beware, beware, I say, lest ye seek after the one and lose the other! My adepts stand upright; their head above the heavens, their feet below the hells. "

Later, after qliphotic stuff: The dark forces [...] make a free will and an individual existence outside God possible.

"An individual existence outside God." I'm not sure what to make of this. "With the God & the Adorer I am nothing: they do not see me. They are as upon the earth; I am Heaven, and there is no other God than me, and my lord Hadit." I know where I'm going: I'm not so sure about these folks. 'The darkness' is indeed real; denying the light though seems... like self-harm, to be honest.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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daimonos wrote:
"Beware, beware, I say, lest ye seek after the one and lose the other! My adepts stand upright; their head above the heavens, their feet below the hells."

I really don´t follow you? Maybe I missed the joke.

daimonos wrote:
"An individual existence outside God." I'm not sure what to make of this. "With the God & the Adorer I am nothing: they do not see me. They are as upon the earth; I am Heaven, and there is no other God than me, and my lord Hadit." I know where I'm going: I'm not so sure about these folks. 'The darkness' is indeed real; denying the light though seems... like self-harm, to be honest.

This could be connected to the gnostic idea about the demiurge and the archons.
There is no sense of not working with the Sephiroth and the light side. If you think so you´ve simply got it wrong.
There is no dualism in the Left Hand Path. A huge point of the Left Hand Path is a critique against dualism.
Also, if you know where you are going, then it means you´ve already been there. If you´ve already been there it means you are either standing still or going in circles.
The LHP on the other hand is a journey into the truly unknown - what is dark to us.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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rzk - The Dragon Rouge web site is all about the (rather Gothic) 'dark'. Liber Tzaddi advises a more balanced approach.

There is no sense of not working with the Sephiroth and the light side.

That really doesn't come across in the public material.

if you know where you are going, then it means you´ve already been there.

That's patently untrue.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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Daimonos, Liber Tzaddi may advise a more 'balanced' approach but to the best of my knowledge it is not written from a LHP perspective, so is therefore not entirely pertinent to the present discussion.
Furthermore, i find it interesting that you would choose to equate 'an individual existence outside of god' with 'self-harm'. The initiate of the LHP would no doubt be of the opinion that "union with the divine" - the ultimate goal of the RHP, is a spiritual suicide of the worst possible kind and counter-productive to ones own progress.
Crowley was a great Occultist, whose work warrants a greater deal of attention than it has hitherto been granted, but he is by no means the 'be all and end all' of the spiritual domain. Rather, his work represents a certain APPROACH to spiritual attainment but it is certainly not the ONLY approach. There were 'spiritual masters' WAY before Crowley's time whose work and ideas we will probably never know and I very much doubt that Crowley is the greatest Occultist who ever lived. Certainly the Greatest Occultist to have graced the pages of the british tabloids, of that there is no doubt.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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"That really doesn't come across in the public material."

What more can I say.

"rzk - The Dragon Rouge web site is all about the (rather Gothic) 'dark'. Liber Tzaddi advises a more balanced approach."

"Rather Gothic"? It is expressedly Gothic, in the classical sense.
You even find it in one of the headlines: "Magic · Occultism · Gothicism"

The bright side represents an ideal order in religion and in myths, while the dark side represents the wild overgrown infinity that hides beyond the limits of order. The polarity between the bright and the dark is reflected in the conflict between the ideals of classicism and Gothicism. The classical ideals are founded on clarity, reason, light and rules.The gothic ideals are metaphysical and are founded on archaic visions, dreams, the dark and obscure, inspiration and infatuation.
The thinkers of the renaissance viewed the Goths as a sign of the ruination of culture. The gothic was believed to be the utmost anti pole to the classical civilization and the classical ideals of beauty. According to the classical taste the gothic represented something insipid and overgrown, threatening and terrifying. During the end of the 18th century the Gothicism would be reevaluated, however, and the gothic architecture was again appreciated. German intellectuals like Herder and Goethe embraced Gothicism as an aesthetic ideal. Both in England and The Continent artists and writers were fascinated by Gothicism. What had been associated with darkness and the barbarian during the renaissance was now a great source of inspiration. The English romantics sought out the gothic and a feeling of enthusiastic terror instead of the pure, light and structured ideals of the Classicism. In a text from the 18th century one can find a list of things that could cause this feeling of terror. It was "gods, demons, hell, spirits, human souls, enchantments, wizardry, thunder, floods, monsters, fire, war, plague, starvation etc.". During the 19th century a ruin romanticism was developed in art, in which graveyards and ruins of gothic churches are grown over with the untamed nature under the pale full moon. Exploring the dark became a way to increased knowledge about the hidden nature of man and the Gothicism became a form of expression of mans shadow side.

"That's patently untrue."

Maybe that is a difference between your system of initiation and the one I am working with then. I have no a clue what the end of the initiation will be like. How could I know?


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 Anonymous
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Am I right in thinking that this newly emerging left hand path concept didn't really exist prior to the 1980's?

The idea that Crowely would be writing from the perspective of a modern underground trend is absurd (if I'm right that it is a modern trend).

One thing I notice about the LHP is that it's only really people who identify themselves as LHP adherents who use the terms LHP and RHP in such a way. I don't really understand why the term LHP is needed. I suspect we are all really doing the same thing.

Mind you it's good to see these young people redefining everything and winding up the old folk. 😉


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 Anonymous
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I have no a clue what the end of the initiation will be like. How could I know?

How could any of us? Having a general sense of direction is not the same as having been there before.

Liber Tzaddi may advise a more 'balanced' approach but to the best of my knowledge it is not written from a LHP perspective, so is therefore not entirely pertinent to the present discussion.

In broad generalisation, the DR material characterises LHP as darkness, individuation, become a god and RHP as light, self-immolation, union with god. Tzaddi suggests that other options may be available. It's obviously not 'written from a LHP perspective.' I didn't realise that the only 'pertinent' material in this discussion was that supporting one particular point of view.

The initiate of the LHP would no doubt be of the opinion that "union with the divine" - the ultimate goal of the RHP, is a spiritual suicide of the worst possible kind and counter-productive to ones own progress.

For all that 'a huge point of the Left Hand Path is a critique against dualism' there's a persistent belief here that there are exactly two, mutually exclusive, options available. Again, I suggest that Tzaddi questions that, and offers an alternative approach.

Noxifer616 asked, "What do other Thelemites view of the Order (though their teachings, imo, do not contradict mainstream Thelema's, as well as the strong Typhonian Thelemite presence with the order)". The material comes across way darker than AL; clearly it's of interest to some. The proof, as always, is in the members - are they in general happy, confident, well balanced individuals? Is their system likely to produce the same?

I'll be away for a while so may not be able to follow up very quickly. Regards,


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 Anonymous
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 Anonymous
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"daimonos" wrote:
The proof, as always, is in the members - are they in general happy, confident, well balanced individuals? Is their system likely to produce the same?

If the proof is in the pudding, then one very large pudding they have baked is the band Therion. 🙂

They have direct involvement in the Order and their music is very positive and celebratory. If their music is anything to go by the Dragon Rouge is an extremely worthwile Order to be in.


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 Anonymous
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nashimiron wrote:
"Am I right in thinking that this newly emerging left hand path concept didn't really exist prior to the 1980's?
The idea that Crowely would be writing from the perspective of a modern underground trend is absurd (if I'm right that it is a modern trend).
One thing I notice about the LHP is that it's only really people who identify themselves as LHP adherents who use the terms LHP and RHP in such a way. I don't really understand why the term LHP is needed. I suspect we are all really doing the same thing.
Mind you it's good to see these young people redefining everything and winding up the old folk."

Actually, I would say that there is nothing new of the underlying current that I am a part of.
As a word, the ´Left Hand Path´ was introduced in the west during the 19th century and its fascination of eastern mysticism. The whole concept was however misunderstood and demonised when it entered the western system of thought, language and theology. This misinterpretation of LHP got picked up by Crowley who continued to use the term in a wrong sense. See for instance Magick Without Tears on "The Black Brothers". Crowley of course never saw himself as a practicioner of the Left Hand Path.
In the 20th century occult world there were some people who realized that there was a true esoteric tradition hidden behind the misinterpretations, and people like Kenneth Grant have done much for the tradition. Some of the misinterpretations of the Left Hand Path however were just too inviting to be left alone by dabblers in the occult such as Anton LaVey and the people who has followed after him. There is simply nothing in LaVey that is Left Hand Path.
Right now we have a true tradition established in the western world with a couple of serious LHP orders truly workíng initiatorically to get into this immensly old current.
One could also of course discuss if we can find Left Hand Path-adepts before the -self proclaimed Left Hand Path- of the 20th century, and my answer is indeed yes to this question. Just a sweep over the greek initiatory tradition, some parts of heretic christianity aswell as some parts of esoteric folkmagic would hint to this. Outside the west there is a very long self proclaimed Left Hand Path-tradition, in india, mongolia and tibet in particular.
What we "young people" (counting Grant as one of them) are doing is actually correcting the errors of the 19th century misinterpretation that sadly lived on through otherways brilliant occultists such as Aleister Crowley!

.. Anyway. It seems to me like Left Hand Path tendencies and fullscale systems manifest when people feel that the concemporary initiatory systems for different reasons have lost the important work with the nightside.
There is no dualism here. The critique is just this.

daimonos wrote:
"How could any of us? Having a general sense of direction is not the same as having been there before."

I think you are beginning to understand my point.

"In broad generalisation, the DR material characterises LHP as darkness, individuation, become a god and RHP as light, self-immolation, union with god. Tzaddi suggests that other options may be available. It's obviously not 'written from a LHP perspective.' I didn't realise that the only 'pertinent' material in this discussion was that supporting one particular point of view."

.. In the light of the discussion we have here we must understand that this means a critique of exclusivist, moralist and dualistic systems of initiation which builds up dogma against working with parts of yourself, reality and beyond. The Left Hand Path radically search Gnosis without restrictions. Self-Knowledge is impossible in the complete way the LHP-adept search for if one is not interested in a throughout exploration of the Nightside.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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"rzk" wrote:
Outside the west there is a very long self proclaimed Left Hand Path-tradition, in india, mongolia and tibet in particular.

This sounds interesting, because I think unless a tradition identifies itself as LHP, it's usually going to be just it's detractors who call it such and therefore the term is irrelevant. For the term to mean anything, it has to mean something to the practitioners themselves.

"rzk" wrote:
.. Anyway. It seems to me like Left Hand Path tendencies and fullscale systems manifest when people feel that the concemporary initiatory systems for different reasons have lost the important work with the nightside.
There is no dualism here. The critique is just this.

It sounds a bit to me like the LHP is simply a title for the esoteric tradition. When a person has realised that the exoteric tradition is only part of the story, he goes in search of the esoteric.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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"In broad generalisation, the DR material characterises LHP as darkness, individuation, become a god and RHP as light, self-immolation, union with god. Tzaddi suggests that other options may be available. It's obviously not 'written from a LHP perspective.' I didn't realise that the only 'pertinent' material in this discussion was that supporting one particular point of view."

My point was that Tzaddi, being written from a RHP point of view, will inevitably misinterpret the LHP and its 'advice' would therefore be of no use to a 'lefty'. Also, I do not seem to be able to grasp why you think the LHP is 'unbalanced'? Again, this is a fairly typical RHP attitude.

"Some of the misinterpretations of the Left Hand Path however were just too inviting to be left alone by dabblers in the occult such as Anton LaVey and the people who has followed after him. There is simply nothing in LaVey that is Left Hand Path".

Agreed, however I think La Vey's followers should shoulder more of the blame than La Vey himself. I find his translations of the Enochian keys to be far more interesting and closer to the original material than a lot of the drivel that has manifested over the years.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
 

93,

"asturel13" wrote:
The initiate of the LHP would no doubt be of the opinion that "union with the divine" - the ultimate goal of the RHP, is a spiritual suicide of the worst possible kind and counter-productive to ones own progress.
Crowley was a great Occultist, whose work warrants a greater deal of attention than it has hitherto been granted, but he is by no means the 'be all and end all' of the spiritual domain.

I'm a bit perplexed, sorry. In light of "There is no god but man" from Crowley's Liber OZ, where does this place him within this 'RHP-LHP' construct?


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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"Camlion" wrote:
93,

"asturel13" wrote:
The initiate of the LHP would no doubt be of the opinion that "union with the divine" - the ultimate goal of the RHP, is a spiritual suicide of the worst possible kind and counter-productive to ones own progress.
Crowley was a great Occultist, whose work warrants a greater deal of attention than it has hitherto been granted, but he is by no means the 'be all and end all' of the spiritual domain.

I'm a bit perplexed, sorry. In light of "There is no god but man" from Crowley's Liber OZ, where does this place him within this 'RHP-LHP' construct?

Good point, Crowley did tend to 'flirt' with the LHP, especially in his younger days it would seem, however he was not above attacking the LHP when it suited him, especially when he wanted to white-wash his own image for the sake of selling Thelema to his readers/potential initiates.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
 
"asturel13" wrote:
"Camlion" wrote:
93,

"asturel13" wrote:
The initiate of the LHP would no doubt be of the opinion that "union with the divine" - the ultimate goal of the RHP, is a spiritual suicide of the worst possible kind and counter-productive to ones own progress.
Crowley was a great Occultist, whose work warrants a greater deal of attention than it has hitherto been granted, but he is by no means the 'be all and end all' of the spiritual domain.

I'm a bit perplexed, sorry. In light of "There is no god but man" from Crowley's Liber OZ, where does this place him within this 'RHP-LHP' construct?

Good point, Crowley did tend to 'flirt' with the LHP, especially in his younger days it would seem, however he was not above attacking the LHP when it suited him, especially when he wanted to white-wash his own image for the sake of selling Thelema to his readers/potential initiates.

I see no reason to apologise to me for you being 'perplexed'.

Flirt? Many, many Thelemites regard Liber OZ as a very profound expression of key principles. http://www.hermetic.com/crowley/libers/lib77.html "There is no god but man" is the very first line of that document, just below the primary quotations from Liber AL, which itself is certainly not known for its using 'whiter words.'

As the equilibration of apparent opposites is so central to Thelema, is it not possible that Thelema accomplishes this with the apparent 'RHP-LHP' polarity? If not, please elaborate on how if fails to do so?

You believe that Crowley's public image is a product of white-washing? It seems quite the opposite to me. Please elaborate.


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Patriarch156
(@patriarch156)
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I think rather than viewing Crowley's disparagement of the left hand path as an attempt at whitewashing Thelema, it would be more fruitful to viewing upon how the term itself was used by the Theosophical Society and consequently elaborated in Crowley's own visionary exploits such as the Vision and the Voice. I.e. it might be that he isn't talking about your left hand path at all.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
 
"Camlion" wrote:
"asturel13" wrote:
"Camlion" wrote:
93,

"asturel13" wrote:
The initiate of the LHP would no doubt be of the opinion that "union with the divine" - the ultimate goal of the RHP, is a spiritual suicide of the worst possible kind and counter-productive to ones own progress.
Crowley was a great Occultist, whose work warrants a greater deal of attention than it has hitherto been granted, but he is by no means the 'be all and end all' of the spiritual domain.

I'm a bit perplexed, sorry. In light of "There is no god but man" from Crowley's Liber OZ, where does this place him within this 'RHP-LHP' construct?

Good point, Crowley did tend to 'flirt' with the LHP, especially in his younger days it would seem, however he was not above attacking the LHP when it suited him, especially when he wanted to white-wash his own image for the sake of selling Thelema to his readers/potential initiates.

I see no reason to apologise to me for you being 'perplexed'.

Flirt? Many, many Thelemites regard Liber OZ as a very profound expression of key principles. http://www.hermetic.com/crowley/libers/lib77.html "There is no god but man" is the very first line of that document, just below the primary quotations from Liber AL, which itself is certainly not known for its using 'whiter words.'

....You believe that Crowley's public image is a product of white-washing? It seems quite the opposite to me. Please elaborate.

Erm, no I never once said that Crowley's public image was the product of 'white-washing' I would urge you to read the post more carefully. I stated that Crowley would often attack the LHP and its initiates with a view to putting up a divide between himself and the (so-called) Black Brothers, a term which is entirely of Crowley's own invention. 'Magick in theory and practice' and 'Magick without tears' both show Crowley's attitude in this matter quite clearly. Crowley seems to me rather concerned with avoiding the 'black magician' role when it came to his his public image.

"As the equilibration of apparent opposites is so central to Thelema, is it not possible that Thelema accomplishes this with the apparent 'RHP-LHP' polarity? If not, please elaborate on how if fails to do so?"

Once again, nowhere in my posts do I assert that Thelema Does not equilibriate the seemingly apparent polarity of the both the LHP and the RHP. And yes, I am very familiar with Liber Oz, thankyou.


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Palamedes
(@palamedes)
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Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 450
 
"Patriarch156" wrote:
I think rather than viewing Crowley's disparagement of the left hand path as an attempt at whitewashing Thelema, it would be more fruitful to viewing upon how the term itself was used by the Theosophical Society and consequently elaborated in Crowley's own visionary exploits such as the Vision and the Voice. I.e. it might be that he isn't talking about your left hand path at all.

I totally agree with this. Consider for example Crowley's high esteem of Indian Tantra - in "Magick Without Tears" he calls it the most advanced form of Hinduism and relates it to the White School of Magick - which would be 'the Left Hand Path' by both self-identification and as perceived by others (this statement could be qualified but in general that's the gist). My perception and understanding was that Crowley was using the term in a way that it relates the Left Hand with the Black Brothers and their inability to discard ego-perspective and clinging. Semantic confusion has generated a great deal of misunderstandings, one of the reasons Crowley suggested kabbalah and numerology as models of 'universal grammar' among magicians.


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 Anonymous
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"Patriarch156" wrote:
I think rather than viewing Crowley's disparagement of the left hand path as an attempt at whitewashing Thelema, it would be more fruitful to viewing upon how the term itself was used by the Theosophical Society and consequently elaborated in Crowley's own visionary exploits such as the Vision and the Voice. I.e. it might be that he isn't talking about your left hand path at all.

[Bold italics mine.]

That was my next point, if further labor was required. 😉

In the light of Thelema, this seems a total non-issue to me.


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 Anonymous
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Isn't that Gary Glitter's new site?

As for Dragon Rouge, I read the work of one of their Polish members... quite amusing to see a reference to something I wrote as a 16 year old schoolboy joke in there - rather sums it all up, doesn't it?


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 Anonymous
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As for Dragon Rouge, I read the work of one of their Polish members... quite amusing to see a reference to something I wrote as a 16 year old schoolboy joke in there - rather sums it all up, doesn't it?

Im not sure personally, I have not seen the work in question, perhaps you could elaborate further?


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 Anonymous
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It would seem he could not..


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 Anonymous
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nashimiron:
It sounds a bit to me like the LHP is simply a title for the esoteric tradition. When a person has realised that the exoteric tradition is only part of the story, he goes in search of the esoteric.

Well you could be in an esoteric tradition without thoroughly working with the darker aspects, as the qliphoth for instance.
The DR often talks about 3 different spiritual modes:
The Exoterical Religious. Right Hand Path.
The "Light" Esoterical (where the dark side is not worked with). Right Hand Path.
The "Dark" Esoterical (where one is ALSO working with the dark side). Left Hand Path.

Patriarch156
I think rather than viewing Crowley's disparagement of the left hand path as an attempt at whitewashing Thelema, it would be more fruitful to viewing upon how the term itself was used by the Theosophical Society and consequently elaborated in Crowley's own visionary exploits such as the Vision and the Voice. I.e. it might be that he isn't talking about your left hand path at all.

Actually, this is one of the basic points in the discussion of Thelema, Crowley and the Left Hand Path, and has already been pointed out in the discussion. What Crowley calls the Left Hand Path simply has very little to do with the Left Hand Path.


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 Anonymous
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"rzk" wrote:
nashimiron:
It sounds a bit to me like the LHP is simply a title for the esoteric tradition. When a person has realised that the exoteric tradition is only part of the story, he goes in search of the esoteric.

Well you could be in an esoteric tradition without thoroughly working with the darker aspects, as the qliphoth for instance.
The DR often talks about 3 different spiritual modes:
The Exoterical Religious. Right Hand Path.
The "Light" Esoterical (where the dark side is not worked with). Right Hand Path.
The "Dark" Esoterical (where one is ALSO working with the dark side). Left Hand Path.

Patriarch156
I think rather than viewing Crowley's disparagement of the left hand path as an attempt at whitewashing Thelema, it would be more fruitful to viewing upon how the term itself was used by the Theosophical Society and consequently elaborated in Crowley's own visionary exploits such as the Vision and the Voice. I.e. it might be that he isn't talking about your left hand path at all.

Actually, this is one of the basic points in the discussion of Thelema, Crowley and the Left Hand Path, and has already been pointed out in the discussion. What Crowley calls the Left Hand Path simply has very little to do with the Left Hand Path.

A question occurs to me concerning this. Is there not one path appropriate to each of us, commonly known as the way of the Will among many of us? What has all this 'dark and light,' 'left and right' crap have to do with Crowley or Thelema?


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 Anonymous
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Don't forget that it was Crowley who began talking about the Left and Right Hand Path within a thelemic context.

The Left Hand Path is a Meta-tradition and finding the true will can indeed be said to be a central aspect to the tradition.


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 Anonymous
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"rzk" wrote:
Don't forget that it was Crowley who began talking about the Left and Right Hand Path within a thelemic context.

The Left Hand Path is a Meta-tradition and finding the true will can indeed be said to be a central aspect to the tradition.

A "meta-tradition" would imply the addition to or completion of an existing tradition somehow lacking in the first place. I don't see this as applicable to Thelema.

By my reading, Crowley was all about relative balance between the individual and universe. The course of each is self-correcting by direct reference to Will.

There is no need to categorize the universe by reference to its apparent extremities, other than the pretense of being cool, dark and twisty. 🙂


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 Anonymous
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No, it implies that for instance two traditions share the same esoteric background. The Left Hand Path can be used as a word to point at many different esoteric traditions that can be said to belong to the same fold.

"By my reading, Crowley was all about relative balance between the individual and universe. "
.. How is this relevant to the discussion?

The idea of talking about the darker aspects of esoterism is could be rhetorically important (and this is important!) when one explaining a tradition that also incorporates aspects that mainstream spirituality simply is lacking.
There is not much "cool" about the darkness within the Left Hand Path, it is extremely demanding.This is not a tradition that can be approached as an identity-thing. If one wants occultism where one can boost the ego and seem cool, well then the Left Hand Path is not what you are searching for. Of course though, we find people like this that styles themselves LHP-adepts, such as Michael Ford and the like, that cannot even be seen to be on the fringe of the Left Hand Path movement.


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 Anonymous
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"rzk" wrote:
The idea of talking about the darker aspects of esoterism is could be rhetorically important (and this is important!) when one explaining a tradition that also incorporates aspects that mainstream spirituality simply is lacking.

How is this helpful? Who is being addressed in such a discussion?


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 Anonymous
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If a group were the only group working with sex-magic and they had no problems with saying this in open, and if this aspect of their system was essential to the understanding of the practice of that group, I would say that it could be good to have that kind of information given.

This is the same thing. It adresses anyone interested in understanding what the tradition is all about.


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Anonymous
 Anonymous
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Kennet Granholm is Docent and Assistant Professor in History of Religions at Stockholm University and author of Embracing the Dark: The Magic Order of Dragon Rouge – Its Practice in Dark Magic and Meaning Making.:
[Moderator's Note: Link to material for which copyright restrictions are claimed has been removed.]

Dragon Rouge Magical course I:
[Moderator's Note: Link to material for which copyright restrictions are claimed has been removed.]


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michaelclarke18
(@michaelclarke18)
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Looks good - thanks for posting.


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Markus
(@markus)
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Thanks for posting. Dragon Rouge are certainly very interesting, indeed. In fact, the German section states that they've gotten a lot of member from the FS.

Markus


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