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thamiel
(@thamiel)
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19/11/2009 6:05 pm  

Greetings All,

I am looking for scholarly and historical information on the FS. The only resource I have on hand is Edred Flowers "Fire and Ice", a book that, while interesting, is brief and dubious. I am aware that Koenig had produced some written materials that included extensive facsimiles of pictures and documents, but his books on the subject are unfortunately Out Of Print and in German. I have tried to navigate his site, and while I have gleaned some things from it, it's non-hierarchical and non-linear system of organization frustrates me. Have I missed any other resources, or can anyone offer any assistance? Thanks,

Frater Tham:.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
19/11/2009 7:00 pm  

I doubt you will find much 'scholary' info in English apart from König.
There is a chapter about FS in Nikolas and Zeena Schreck's book Demons of the Flesh - the complete guide to left hand path sex magic.
(but it goes not much into detail, I think you can gather more from Edred Thorson(aka Dr. Steven Flowers) book.

Also you have to understand there was a schism at the end of the 70's between FS and Ordo Saturni. AFAIK, the OS is in possession of the FS order archive (with all the material going back to the 1920's), but is forbidden to use the name Fraternitas Saturni by court order.

Also, the Fraternitas Saturni has a web page. You can try to translate it with a online-translater or even contact them. They have a real long and interesting history article.
-> http://fraternitas.de/home.htm


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
19/11/2009 7:59 pm  

In my library I have:

- two books from Peter-R. König (who is a OS-member? - afaik) with much of intern order materials:
IN NOMINE DEMURGI SATURNI (1925 - 1969)
IN NOMINE DEMURGI SATURNI (1970 - 1998)

- a book SATURN GNOSIS: (1. Jahrgang Band 1-5)
that is a collection of the first five issues of SATURN GNOSIS (the official Lodge journal) with articles from divers order members. A certain 'Edward Alexander' has also contributed 2 or three articles, but they are the rather boring imo. Among the other stuff is some of the most interesting and extraordinary in-deep occult texts, that I have ever seen)

- then there is:
Gregor A. Gregorius - Mystiker des dunklen Lichts (Mystic of the dark Light) from 2007
That is actually a Grosche biography written by FS-members with rare photos from the orders history

- 3 books by Grosche himself:
Gregor A. Gregorius: Logenschul Vortäge
a collection of public lectures about divers occult topics
Gregor A. Gregorius: Geheimnisse der Sexualmagie
('secrets of sexual magic')
Gregorius: Aleister Crowley's Magische Rituale
a practical working book for Crowley's Magick - you can find some pics of it in the LAShTAL-Bibliography

then there are also two books from Spiesberger, who was a member in the FS:
Spiesberger: Magische Praxis - Magisch-Mystische Schulung in Theorie und Praxis
(kind of what Crowley tried with his Magick i.T&P. but in no way connected to it and far more better and in-deep imo)
Spiesberger: Das Mantra Buch - Wortkraft - Tongewalten - Macht der Gebärde
Big opus about mantra-magic with a very interesting chapter about Peryt Shou's Mantra technics

And last there is a LP-box from Loki Foundation:
Saturn Gnosis - Projektion zur deutschen Groß - Loge Fraternitas Saturni
that is part one of the Germania Occulta series (with part two about Peryt Shou)
that's a sample combilation from different industrial/dark ambient musik groups

----

So if you have particular questions I can try to answer it, but of course my time is limited and I also only know what I have read because I'm not a member.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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19/11/2009 8:06 pm  

'Demiurgi' of course. This board needs a 'edit' function.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
20/11/2009 1:41 am  

I'd love to see that bio of Grosche translated into English. I've been obsessed with the FS since I read Fire & Ice and Koenig's few English articles on them. The big problem with the FS material published is that it is skewed towards the sex magickal aspect of the order. Sex magic did not play as large a role as it would appear from the published materials. I would love to know how much of Bardon's work is a reflection of the FS' teachings though.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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20/11/2009 4:24 am  
"uranus" wrote:
... The big problem with the FS material published is that it is skewed towards the sex magickal aspect of the order. Sex magic did not play as large a role as it would appear from the published materials...

That's right. I think people who find out about the FS from books like the one of the Schreck's (is Zeena that daughter of the 'Church of Satan'- guy who died some years ago, forgot the name in the moment ?)
- anyway people who read that book, will be disappointed, I think.
The FS has that 'white-bread [?-spießig]' aura of German enthusiasm for club life to the extreme. The sex-appeal of undergarments made from lamb's wool (if one is allergist against that material). But in the same time they have this rigorous approach about the things that they are doing. There is of course much boring 'trash' in the material they produced, but one can find real gems, when knowing what to look for, especially in the pre-WW2 stuff. They seem to have attracted some real great minds in the beginning. I for myself found the occult meta-mathematical essays of Fra.'. Pacitius in the old Saturn Gnosis issues very interesting. But that is definitely not the material, I think, most people imagine when they here 'Fraternitas Saturni'.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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20/11/2009 4:26 am  

'hear' not here in last sentence


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 Anonymous
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20/11/2009 10:05 am  

I'd love to see an English translation of the Saturn Gnosis journal. The artwork I've seen from it in the Loki Foundation box set is great.


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 Anonymous
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20/11/2009 7:10 pm  

Wikipedia also knows FS:
-> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraternitas_Saturni


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 Anonymous
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20/11/2009 7:26 pm  

Point of view of the OS in English language:
-> http://www.ordo-saturni.info/


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 Anonymous
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04/02/2010 4:22 am  

Great discussion. I would just add that I have seen additional early edition, Gregorius books at Abebooks.com, in German of course.


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 Anonymous
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12/02/2011 1:14 am  

Seems to me the state of Thelema in Germany is in need of improvement. I didn't really dig deep but what appeared to me were these two groups (aside from the FS): The mindset within the Fraternitas Catena Aurae also appears to be S&M flavored and the Thelema Society, localed in Berlin, makes the impression of an actual sect. The vibrant FCA leader ran a Thelema themed brothel too, and the Thelema Society leader got a few lawsuits regarding captivating people or something like that.


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 Anonymous
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12/02/2011 1:58 am  

I recently checked out their website (with the help of google translator) and found a link to where they are selling what appeared to be re-prints of the Order publications from "back in the day".


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christibrany
(@christibrany)
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12/02/2011 3:48 am  

A short note
I can highly reccomend the best place for a starter on Fraternitas Saturni besides Flowers' book, is a shop on ebay.de from the publisher Geheimes Wissen Verlag or secret knowledge press in Austria. They sent me the full book of all the first five prewar FS pubs including Crowley's contributions with nice colour plates for only about 50 dollars incl shipping. If you can read German or want to teach yourself it is highly worth it.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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12/02/2011 8:45 am  

93!

Still available: In Nomine Demiurgi Homunculi:
http://user.cyberlink.ch/~koenig/2010/homunc/homunc.htm

Johannes Maikowski, Communitas Saturni, Communitas Solis, Grossloge Gregor A. Gregorius / GAG, Eugen Grosche, Karl Wedler, Johannes Göggelmann, Horst Kropp, Ordo Saturni, Dieter Heikaus, Guido Wolther, Walter Jantschik, Stanislaus Wicha, Joachim Müller, Heinz Conrad, Hartmut B., Ralph-Peter T., GOTOS, Egregor, Exorial, Wolf Rösler, Wilhelm Uhlhart, Richard Tschudi, Walter Englert, Horst Knaut, Adolf Hemberger, Michael Gebauer, Martin S., Federico Tolli, Calix Borealis

93 93/93


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einDoppelganger
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13/02/2011 3:37 am  

Is that the book Chris is mentioning? Chris can you mail me a link? Id also like to get a copy of Saturn Gnosis. I read German well enough with a dictionary I might get something from it...

S


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christibrany
(@christibrany)
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13/02/2011 4:37 am  

Howdy folks
The book saturn gnosis from Geheimes Wissen Verlag can be bought here: http://cgi.ebay.de/Fraternitas-Saturni-Saturn-Gnosis-I-V-/370453090673?pt=Sach_Fachb%C3%BCcher&hash=item5640b99171

its the exact page I used direct from the publisher so the best deal. If you have a normal American or English ebay you can sign into the ebay of any country, which is useful in finding rarities . There , yet another of my collecting secrets out 😉 lolz


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einDoppelganger
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13/02/2011 4:51 am  

Thanks Chris!

Is this the one with the issues you mentioned above?

Also - email me and I will let you in on a super secret collecting technique that drives all the good book spirits mad and makes them drag themselves to your door.

I kid not.

S


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christibrany
(@christibrany)
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13/02/2011 4:54 am  

sure is~! (the 5 pre war issues) ok emailing now 😀


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Markus
(@markus)
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08/07/2011 9:27 pm  

Stephen Flowers' book "Fire & Ice" has recently been republished under the title The Fraternitas Saturni, available on Amazon for the very reasonable price of ca. 9,- quid. (I paid an arm and a leg for my English copy of the original!). The publisher has this to say:
"The Fraternitas Saturni is a Thelemite order which has shaped the modern occult scene in Germany since its foundation in 1928. This volume presents the history and doctrines of that order. Appendices include the texts of many actual rites performed by the FS as well as historical documents relating to Aleister Crowley's relations with the FS. This order is especially well-known for its use of sexual magic. This book was originally published in the early 1990s by Llewellyn under the title Fire and Ice."

For those who speak German, or want to learn the language, the FS has republished the entire occult classic "Papers for the Applied Art of Occult Living" (Blätter für angewandte okkulte Lebenskunst - BfaoL) in 13 volumes. Altogether this will set you back ca. 200,- GBP and can be ordered from Lulu - unless, of course, you fancy spending 4.000 GBP for the originals. The quality of the BfaoL ranges from superb to mediocre and is well worth a read IMHO.

Markus


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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08/07/2011 11:21 pm  

Thanks Markus! This may have been touched on elsewhere, but I can't remember now. Does anyone know the reason that Germer disliked Groshe so much?


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
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09/07/2011 3:51 pm  
"moyal" wrote:
'Demiurgi' of course. This board needs a 'edit' function.

It has one. You just have to do it within about 5 minutes of making your post.

Proofreading is definitely a valuable skill here.


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stanforda
(@stanforda)
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09/07/2011 5:22 pm  

I've just finished translating into English Albin Grau's 1925 Liber I, The Book of The Zero Hour.
Very interesting stuff I must say.
Has anyone else read this?

I'd love to pick up some of the old Saturn Gnosis issues. I Haven't seen any for sale anywhere though.

John


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William Thirteen
(@williamthirteen)
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09/07/2011 11:00 pm  

a few posts back christibrany provided an Ebay link for Volumes I-V of Saturn Gnosis.

http://cgi.ebay.de/Fraternitas-Saturni-Saturn-Gnosis-I-V-/370453090673


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einDoppelganger
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10/07/2011 2:06 am  
"stanforda" wrote:
I've just finished translating into English Albin Grau's 1925 Liber I, The Book of The Zero Hour.

Will you be publishing this translation? I would love to read it.

S


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christibrany
(@christibrany)
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10/07/2011 3:55 am  

Ooo Ooo me too 🙂 Albin Grau is a totally cool guy. Go Nosferatu!


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stanforda
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10/07/2011 4:47 am  
"einDoppelganger" wrote:
"stanforda" wrote:
I've just finished translating into English Albin Grau's 1925 Liber I, The Book of The Zero Hour.

Will you be publishing this translation? I would love to read it.

S

Sorry guys, I should have explained further.
Albin Grau's writings, along with his letters to AC, are already available in German through Koenig. I presumed everyone knew this and I was wondering who else had read it.

Anyone can easily translate Grau's work with various programs. It's not the same as a published copy obviously. I don't know how one would go about publishing Grau's Liber I, possibly the Fraternitas Saturni hold the rights to his work, and so far they haven't made much in English available.

John


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stanforda
(@stanforda)
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10/07/2011 5:09 am  

Sorry, Just to clarify two things.
I got confused with Eugen Grosche's letters to AC, which are available.
I've just checked Koenig's documents, and the only thing by Grau is Liber I.
Though I seem to remember that more than this was available at one point.

John


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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11/07/2011 8:06 am  

93!
Albin Grau's Liber I can be found at http://www.parareligion.ch/saturn.htm
and the complete history of the Fraternitas Saturni at http://www.parareligion.ch/2011/reload.htm
93 93/93


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AdoniaZanoni
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12/07/2011 8:20 am  
"N.O.X" wrote:
Thanks Markus! This may have been touched on elsewhere, but I can't remember now. Does anyone know the reason that Germer disliked Groshe so much?

Here is an excerpt from a chapter of Secret Rituals of the OTO that explains why Germer despised Grosche:
“‘Saturn Gnosis’ was founded (c. 1927) by ‘Gregor A. Gregorius’, whose real name was Eugen Grosche. Along with other German magical groups it was suppressed in 1937, but was revived in 1950 by its founder, who was also the publisher of a periodical entitled, Blätter fur Lebenskunst. Grosche claimed to be a Thelemite, and frequently expressed his admiration for Crowley. His claims, however, were not taken seriously by Germer, who wrote: ‘Grosche’s manipulations are beginning to become more suspicious. In the June issue of his Blätter fur Lebenskunst he prints a childish report of Crowley —Therion, makes him even obtain an audience with the Dalai Lama and other silly things. In the July issue he discloses his game, or the game of those occult forces behind him, more openly. He talks of, “Thelemists” while, “Thelemites” should be and always has been, “Thelemiten”. The foremost law of the “Thelemists” will be, “Thou shalt not kill,” — cf. Liber OZ! I have no idea of the origin of the “thelemistic Revelations” from which he quotes (p. 5) the verses VI. 6, 10, 11 and 12. And then again later, III. 6, 7 and on p. 7 VI. 2, 3. It reads, to me, at least, like the style of the so-called Mahatma letters.... Magically I see it as the deliberate attempts by the Black Lodge, or whatever lodge, to throw a stick into the wheel of our new serious beginning ... Grosche wants to make himself the spokesman for Thelema in Germany. It may be a deliberate attempt to draw the wind from our sails. It will not succeed, but shows to what current he belongs.’

This quotation makes clear that when he left the Crowley copyrights to the O.T.O. Germer did not have Grosche’s movement in mind. In an action held in the German Courts some years ago Grosche failed to establish his claim to be the chief of a section of the authentic O.T.O.

Eugen Grosche was on friendly terms with Kenneth Grant whose claim to be Outer Head of the Order has been made on the dustjackets of Crowley’s Confessions, the Magical Record of the Beast 666, and Kenneth Grant’s own, The Magical Revival. Nevertheless Germer expelled Kenneth Grant from the O.T.O. on July 20, 1955.”

In Fire and Ice, Appendix A for Ritual Missae Fraternitas Saturni states in the ritual “Love is the Law! Love under Will! Compassionless Love!”

Motta’s Equinox V IV states “Knights of Harlequin of Canada: no connection with Thelema, whatsoever, although it makes it noise to this effects. Fraternitas Saturni of Canada: an attempt to revive Eugene Groshe’s con-game. No connection with Thelema whatsoever.”

Germer may have disliked Grosche for other reasons, but from what I have read he probably did not approve the way Grosche was interpreting Crowley’s teachings and found his aim corrupt. Kenneth Grant claims Germer expelled him mainly because of his association with him in his 1955 Manisfesto, but Germer only gave him the right to work only the First 3 degrees instead he created a full blown lodge with all 11 degrees without Germer’s authority as mentioned in Modern Ritual Magic by Francis King. I was wrongly expecting Grant’s Trilogies such as the Magickal Revival would have discussed of his relation with Eugene Grosche.

Karl Germer wanted to preserve Crowley’s works and order without it being corrupt by untrustworthy individuals. Perhaps according to Motta and what I have read, Germer was wise to keep Thelema limited to the public given the state of things.


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Azidonis
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12/07/2011 3:13 pm  

Thanks for the great information, Adonia.

"AdoniaZanoni" wrote:
In the June issue of his Blätter fur Lebenskunst he prints a childish report of Crowley —Therion, makes him even obtain an audience with the Dalai Lama and other silly things.

If this were even the slightest bit true... I mean, it would have been cool for Crowley to visit the Dalai Lama. Sometimes I wonder if perhaps Thelema as a whole would be a lot different if Crowley had more Eastern background in him.


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Markus
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12/07/2011 7:29 pm  

The information quoted by Adonia is interesting, but does not explain the reasons why Saturnus (K. Germer) and Gregorius (E. Grosche) disliked each other. Rather, these seem to be the emotional ejaculations of a man who had been thoroughly miffed at Gregorius for quite a while.

I do not know the history of the relationship between Gregorius and Saturnus, but will venture the following guess:

1) Germer had been born in 1885, Grosche in 1888 - they were thus of the same age.
2) Germer had been a highly decorated officer in WWI, which suggests that he came from a well-to-do family, and had enjoyed a decent education. This further suggests that Germer's political views would most likely have been conservative. Grosche on the other hand came from extreme poverty and only went to school until the age of 16. Politically he was a socialist. Furthermore, Germer had been a warrior in the Great War (think Ernst Jünger) while Grosche had been a nurse (think Erich Maria Remarque). Their stations could hardly have been more different!
3) Germer was the secretary of Recnartus (Tränker) while Grosche was the secretary of the Pansophic Lodge, suggesting that while they nominally wielded similar influence, Grosche's word would have counted more.

Now, if you want friction between two people, then in my estimation, what we have here is a near perfect constellation for precisely that! All the silly bickering that we find later on is, in my opinion, merely the result of an already present - if only simmering - conflict.

Markus


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 Anonymous
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13/07/2011 1:27 am  

Thanks Markus! I had suspected that there was more to it than Germer being miffed at Grosche's word play.


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 Anonymous
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13/07/2011 2:16 am  

Germer was also notoriously anal about tedious matters. His issue with Metzger towards the end was over slight changes made to Germer's translation of Liber AL that in fact was closer to the intent of the English language version.


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 Anonymous
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28/11/2011 5:06 pm  

Markus made a very good observation. Additional point (my 'conjectural'):

Germer is the BIG financier since the old days of the Pansophia Lodge. But he was a not  a 'real magus', like Grosche (and Grant).

+ there is the whole "Conference of Hohenleuben"-matter:

Condensed from my Hohenleuben thread ( http://www.lashtal.com/forum/index.php/topic,3899.0/topicseen.html):

[my accentuation]

- Befor WWI the Mother of Eugen Grosche worked as matron for the Theosophical Society. She is a widow and lives in a little flat in the house of the society with Eugen (young man).
- Eugen helps book-seller and theosophist Heinrich Tränker at shipment-work in his shop. He gets known though Tränker about theosophic circles.
- In the 1920 Eugen Grosche has own esoteric book shop in Berlin. He is sceptical about Theosophy. He critices especially the belief in the 'existance' of the "The Great White Broderhood". For him 'it' exists 'only' in the sense of 'ancestral-remembrance' [Germ.:'Erberinnerung'], which can only experienced in seldom hours as 'mental vibrations'. He get's introduced by Tränker to his Pansophic Lodge, who is the Grand Master under the name of Fra. Recnartus. But it seems at this time the lodge is very small. Gregorius gethers the first Pansophist in a  study-circle and from this nucleus the Orient of the Pansophic Lodge is formed.
- Grosche gets initiated by Tränker in OTO. Tränker has got his X°OTO from Reuß on March 10, 1921. Apart from Grosche the only other pansophists, who get initiated in O.T.O. are: Otto Gebhardi and Fra. Ekkehart. This four people are the only O.T.O. members in Germany in this times. Gregorius gets orders from Recnartus to revivify O.T.O. in Germany. Grosche acquires V° O.T.O.
- Pansophia is likewise the Golden Dawn and Tränker is an adept in this English Order. Pansophia attracts many German theosophists even one of the old founder members of the German section of the Theosophical Society Otto Gebhardi. (He was also a early member of O.T.O. before the suspension of that order.) Another member is machine-engineer Karl Germer who acts as an financer, secretary and translater for Tränker under the name of Fra. Saturnus. He enables the publishing of the book series "PANSOPHIA - fountainhead of the inner live. New announced for salvation of the world from a Collegium Pansophicum."
- At last in June 1925 Crowley is driving to Germany. The Cost are paid by Fra. Saturnus (Germer). The meeting of 13 individuals takes place on the 22th of June 1925 at Tränkers country estate in Thuringia at Hohenleuben.
- This is the conference which is known to occultists worldwide as "The conference of Weida". At all posibility the name has stuck because the attendees could later only recollect the name of the train-station, which is Weida.
- Together with Crowley arrive: his chancellor Norman Mudd, Leah Hirsig and Dorothy Olsen.
- The German occultists are: Tränker, his wife Frau Helene, Karl Germer with his acquaintance the publisher Oskar Hopfer von Weissendorf, Otto Gebhardi with his concubine Martha Künzel, Albin Gau and of course Eugen Grosche. The Germans can only sparsly speak English except for Germer, who as such acts as an translator.
- There is dispute right from the beginning. Fra. Pacitius (Albin Grau) demands for Germany an advanced form of The Law of Thelema. On the second sentance "Love is the Law, Love under Will" should be attached the addendum "Pitiless Love". Crowley takes up with this. Albin Grau claimed later, that at this time he was a follower of Schopenhauer's "Welt als Wille und Vorstellung" and had interposed in the conversation, that a law as "Do what You Will" has already it's foundation in the depths of cosmos and beyond that is the 'Primary Law of Raison d'etre'[Germ.='Urgesetz des Seinsgrundes']. He also recalled to see "an existing analogy between the abolute objectivism and the relative individual relating to 'Do What You Will'." Furthermore Grau telled that Crowley seemed to not offhandly dismiss his opinion, but that Fra.'.Saturnus was seeing this objection as improperly and saw it as an hypercritical probe of the Master's teaching.
- But the question about Crowleys "World-Mastership" remains controversial. The Berlin people (Grau and Grosche) want to stay independent. Gebhardi is acquiescent, apparently to impress his girl-fiend Martha Küntzel, who is smitten with Crowley. Also Karl Germer is facinated by Master Therion, and so the famous 'Seeker's testimony' is composed. Heinrich and Helene Tränker, Mudd, Hirsig, Küntzel, Germer, Olsen and Gebhardi sign it.
- Explicit purpose of the proclamation is the challenge of the theosophic world-teacher, the Indian Jiddu Krishnamurti by the Pansophists.
- Apart from not signing the testimony Grosche is also impressed by Crowley. He is introduced as an brother of O.T.O. to Crowley and they have a longer conversation aside the conference, where Crowley is said to have approved Grosche's grades and offered Gregorius to be his direct student, if he would send him 5000$ and a woman. Also Crowley is showing Grosche a big coffer filled with unpublished manuscripts and other valuable paraphernalia, among them a photo from his Tibetian and Mongolian world tours depicting himself in the dress of the 'Red Hat sect'. Crowley also gives his approbation for secret mission of Recnartus to Grosche about the revivify of O.T.O. in Germany and promises to give his help in this task. Gregorius recognizes Therion as enunciator of The Law but disagrees Crowleys demand of unification of all lodges under his command.
- But the meeting is ending in hassle. Crowley feels himself mistreated by Tränker. He accuses Tränker to have hiden food from him, but a friend of Tränker later told that this was emanating from Tränker's wife Helene, who was wary against the foreigners. She was locking off the larder constantly. Crowley tells also that Tränker made modifications to his published texts in PANSOPHIA and defamed Germer's wife as insane and addicted to morphine.
- In return Tränker accuses Crowley to badly treat his wife and of lewdly attemps to seduce her. He was 'literaly jumping' on her and was trying to be alone with her for instance to 'help her in the kitchen'. Tränker was telling this to his students Waltharius and also his fiend Walter Englert.
Waltharius was writing: "There must have played many, many private things into this during this visit. Therion liked woman, and it was all about woman. This was the reason Fra.'. Recnartus no longer wanted Therion as an guest in his house." There is no knowing if the divorce of tränker from his wife in the same year has something to do with it. To Gustav Meyrink Tränker told of Crowley as 'Astral-Polyp' and dangerous conman. He also told of his later revision of opinion about the Book of the Law in December 1925. "As he could not give himself an explanation of the most crass parts to me, I have dumped him down as a scourge to all those who truefully are striving for a spiritual life, whereupon he was falling to the opposite and now is trying to ruin me in public and elsewhere.
- In the night of August 31 to September 1 Tränker celebrates a holy magical operation to get direct advice from the Secret Chiefs in the astral-realm. He gets his relevation the next morning at 11 o'clock. The order is that Tränker and Crowley help each other and both have to keep a silence for one year, aside from issues about Argentum Astrum and Pansophia. Tränke accepts to comply to this order till September 1st 1926. As witness for this order are regarded Martha Küntzel and Otto Gephardi.
- Crowley was exchanging from Tränker's house to the house of Karl Germer in Weida. They both are in good understanding and Crowley is initiating Germer into his Argentum Astrum and the O.T.O. Later Germer is sueing his old Grand Master Recnartus for the money he had put in the 'Pansophia' series.
- Crowley is staying till November 1925 at Germer in Weida. Recnartus executes a magical evocation against Therion to dispose him. He also tries to get an expulsion order from the police and notifys the    public prosecution department. He also orders all masonic lodges to whistle-blow Crowley, if he tries to enter Germany again.
- That in turn disgusts Albin Grau. He demands from Tränker to lay down the office of Grand Master of the Pansophic Lodge and the R+C-movement, or the rosicrucians would dissolve the Pansophic Lodge. Tränker refuses and the consequence of this is the brake between Tränker and the Berlin pansophists and also the seed of Fraternitas Saturni. But Grau also later dismisses the Liber Al, "...a book stigmatized with the threefold KEOU. I got...a true insight in the planned reconstruction of Argentum Astrum, a primitiv world-order which reminds on the most black days of Atlantis. If this ideas where known to me in the right time, Sir Crowley could be shure I would not have took the yoke for Argentum Astrum as easily...". But Grau is not only disappointed of Crowley, he answers with the infamous Liber I, which later should take a place for Fraternitas Saturni alike Liber AL has for O.T.O.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
28/11/2011 5:12 pm  

forgot to paste this:

There is agreement to translater the works of Master Therion into German language and to spread them over the whole country through Tränkers contacts to occult book-sellers. Grosches own book-shop "Inveha" in Berlin and the shop "Asokthebu" of the Munich Pansophist Otto Wilhelm Barth are designated as reception centers.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
18/01/2012 3:09 pm  

A reprint of post WWII Eugen Grosche/ Fraternitas Saturni Lodge Journal "Blätter für angewandte okkulte Lebenskunst" can be bought here:

http://www.lulu.com/spotlight/fraternitas_saturni

(German language!)


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Markus
(@markus)
Member
Joined: 9 years ago
Posts: 257
18/01/2012 4:42 pm  

Thanks for bringing this up, Moyal. I got these from Lulu a couple of months ago. The BfaoL consists of 13 volumes, its size and scope comparing to AC's "Equinox vol. 1", each volume containing 12 monthly issues and going at 15-17 Euros. Considering that you'll pay 30 Euros for one month's issue of the original, this is an absolute bargain. The contents are neat, too. It would be nice to pick the best articles out of this collection, translate them and publish it in a fashion similar to "Gems from the Equinox". Any volunteers?

Markus


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
18/01/2012 6:58 pm  

Over there in the corner from where I sit now, there does time a high stable of photo-copys of this stuff I have achieved some 2-3 years ago from ARW. Never read it in detail. I have a same accumulation of Peryt Shou material,l I still have to go trough. Peryt Shou, Grant and A.O. Spare is still the most in deep for me. Dropped 'crypto-gay' Crowley. But Thelema has worth, and Grant is cult of course.

But in the moment I'm more interested in Fomenko and German Chronology-criticism. -> Hot stuff.
We are all pawned. 'History', Bible, Christianity (Catholic Church), Jews and Islam as we know it, is a lie, invented by renaissance writers at least after the 15th century, when not in the 19th century. You get the idea. Look for Volker Dübbers (aka 'Tuisto'), -> he knows his Kabbalah ( http://www.sinossevis.de/).

http://de.geschichte-chronologie.de/index.php?option=com_kunena&Itemid=152&func=listcat

All in German language of course.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
18/01/2012 7:45 pm  

To add a DI6 citation:

" I can't help but grin. My demons are coming from deep within."

-> http://www.musictory.de/musik/Death+In+June/We+Said+Destroy+III


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einDoppelganger
(@eindoppelganger)
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18/01/2012 8:37 pm  
"moyal" wrote:
Dropped 'crypto-gay' Crowley...

And yet you quote Douglas P?  8)

To each his own but if AC is "gay" anything it certainly aint crypto.  😮


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einDoppelganger
(@eindoppelganger)
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18/01/2012 9:55 pm  

Moyal,

thank you for your English translations from Alexander Popiol, Raimund Schrader "Gregor A. Gregorius - Mystiker des dunklen Lichtes" in this thread. Its highly informative and a fascinating read.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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16/02/2012 7:13 pm  

...And yet you quote Douglas P?

Yes, I do and it makes occult (typhonian) sense.
(....for myself at last..).

The 'occult' meaning is only 'parenthetically' about 'gay' anyway.
I'm just bored and not interested about this topic...


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einDoppelganger
(@eindoppelganger)
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16/02/2012 7:18 pm  

whatever, just watch out for the "crypto-gays" lurking in your library moyal.  ::)


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 Anonymous
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16/02/2012 7:23 pm  

....what ever...as you said.


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einDoppelganger
(@eindoppelganger)
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16/02/2012 8:01 pm  

I see you edited your reply. to add:

"The 'occult' meaning is only 'parenthetically' about 'gay' anyway.
I'm just bored and not interested about this topic..."

Well, I see you are not interested in the topic [sub:2x9ql28n](translation: trying to escape having to engage and elaborate on your statement)[/sub:2x9ql28n] but let me ask anyway.
Why on earth would you discount Crowley's work because you saw him as "parenthetically" gay? WTF is "parenthetically gay" anyway? There is a current of "omnisexuality" in Crowley's work that runs the spectrum of hetero to homosexual. Why on earth you would consider him "crypto-gay" and not "crypto-straight" tells more about you than AC's work IMO.
I'm not suggesting you need to be be "gay," or even like 'teh gheys" but your statement strikes me as really odd and sadly limited. But, thank goodness that...

But Thelema has worth, and Grant is cult of course.

I may just not be getting your "occult" meaning of 'gay." Perhaps its something like the esoteric joy that one experiences dancing on a parade float? I don't  know...
Please if you have time between readings of Miguel Serrano can you elaborate?  😛


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
16/02/2012 9:27 pm  

You gays will have to accept that there are MANY humans on this planet, that don't like you and would shoot you with their will' (right or wrong - whattever...!) on sight in the balls, to see you to bleed to death in agony, if they could get away with this.
And it has (sadly) nothing to do with the 'natural instinct' (which would be the right 'Führer' in this case!).
It has more to do with the rejection and tedium when constantly propagated with gay propaganda.

What about Crowley?

I go what I have gained from König in this case. -> Means:
He never  got over his graven impression of his father and all his live and work was a crypto way balancing this. (With much gain for all of us - gay or not.)


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ignant666
(@ignant666)
Tangin
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 3139
16/02/2012 9:37 pm  

Who wants to shoot me in the balls (interesting choice of words) because they have been "constantly propagated [ditto re word choice] with gay propaganda" again?
I understand English is not your first language but what on earth do you mean?
As to Koenig as a source on AC's psyche, you may find that many here may feel that his interpretive skills are not quite up to his archival archaeology skills.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
16/02/2012 9:42 pm  

Do you have read König?


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einDoppelganger
(@eindoppelganger)
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Joined: 12 years ago
Posts: 915
16/02/2012 9:50 pm  
"moyal" wrote:
You gays will have to accept that there are MANY humans on this planet, that don't like you and would shoot you with their will' (right or wrong - whattever...!) on sight in the balls, to see you to bleed to death in agony, if they could get away with this.

WTF?!? The prurient glee you get typing that sentence is palpable!

And it has (sadly) nothing to do with the 'natural instinct' (which would be the right 'Führer' in this case!).
It has more to do with the rejection and tedium when constantly propagated with gay propaganda.

So you are saying that there are bunches of people willing to do horrible violence to LGBT people because they hate the "gay propaganda" but not "teh gheys." I suppose you are not at all trying to obliquely suggest you are one of those folks, you are just making sure its known they are out there?
The natural instinct you refer to is what exactly? 

What is the tedium of gay propaganda that so drives you [sub:15lqy0ka]er, I mean some people[/sub:15lqy0ka] to want to do horrible violence to the genitals of homosexuals? Why the obsession with violence to genitals for that matter... Thats is like, so crypto-gay.

I go what I have gained from König in this case. -> Means:
He never  got over his graven impression of his father and all his live and work was a crypto way balancing this. (With much gain for all of us - gay or not.)

I have no idea what  the hell you are trying to  say but I get that it involves violence to male genitalia and something about P Koenig. When you get your head out of your tunnel of set perhaps you might compose something coherent? I think this is less a language barrier and more a question of sanity, intelligence, and coherency.


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