What an odd coincidence, I was just watching an episode of Justin Sledge's online series of lectures on magic and occultism."ESTORICA" He has a entire episode on Ancient Greco-Egyptian magic texts referring the Headless One, or The Bornless One. And it it's influence on Crowley's Liber Semekn I would strongly suggest you at least check his site out. He is an intellectual giant, and his commentaries are just terrific.Does anyone happen to know any sources on how the Headless Rite fom the PGM made its way into the curriculum of the Golden Dawn? That is, how did then Crowley come to know about it?
@azrael2393 Awesome! Why aren't you researching the information that is already available? Didn't Justin Sledge already answer how it came into Crowley's canon of ritual and theology in this episode?
@toadstoolwe There is no information that I am aware of available, and Justin simply suggested that it might have come into the Golden Dawn via Bennett. I am trying to find out if there's some evidence of it.
@azrael2393 I wish you good luck and that the entities guide you to viable sources. I will look forward to watching.
fom the PGM
What/who is PGM?
The Papyri Graecae Magicae, aka the Greek Magical Papyri.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Magical_Papyri
The source for the Headless Ritual, which serves as the basis for Liber Samekh and the Preliminary Invokation of the Goetia. One of the other better known rituals from them is the Mithras Liturgy.
The Papyri Graecae Magicae, aka the Greek Magical Papyri.
Thank you. I have examined the link. I do not have any of these in my hard-book or digital-borg library ... or even my memory, as I never heard of them before.
Shiva: "I do not have any of these in my hard-book or digital-borg library ... or even my memory, as I never heard of them before."
You thereby demonstrate that practicing AC's Thelema, does not require any knowledge whatsoever, about "The Papyri Graecae Magicae, aka the Greek Magical Papyri."
And the preceding fact is congruent with the reality that neither is any accurate knowledge whatsoever, about Ancient Egypt and Ancient Egyptians, required to practice AC's Thelema.
Shiva: "I do not have any of these in my hard-book or digital-borg library ... or even my memory, as I never heard of them before."
You thereby demonstrate that practicing AC's Thelema, does not require any knowledge whatsoever, about "The Papyri Graecae Magicae, aka the Greek Magical Papyri."
And the preceding fact is congruent with the reality that neither is accurate knowledge about Ancient Egypt and Ancient Egyptians, required to practice AC's Thelema.
I don't disagree in the slightest. I am one of those who insists that Thelema has very little to do with Ancient Egyptian Heka, or ANY "ancient magic" at all, and I constantly get harassed online for saying it 🙂
This is something I will say in my talk with Justin next week. But regardless, I am still trying to find out if there is any data points regardless how this Rite made its way into Crowley's hands and from there into his edition of the Goetia.
Posted by: @wellreadwellbred
"You thereby demonstrate that practicing AC's Thelema, does not require any knowledge whatsoever, about "The Papyri Graecae Magicae, aka the Greek Magical Papyri."And the preceding fact is congruent with the reality that neither is accurate knowledge about Ancient Egypt and Ancient Egyptians, required to practice AC's Thelema."
I always assumed that Shiva was not Aleister Crowley nor an incarnation of him.
What is your Thelema ?
don't disagree in the slightest. I am one of those who insists that Thelema has very little to do with Ancient Egyptian Heka, or ANY "ancient magic" at all, and I constantly get harassed online for saying it
Well at least you have a smile on you face...and I could agree regarding Thelema... but it is with the contact with the strange and unfamiliar that a door or window is sometime opened by which one might come to discover something new about oneself...which is where the magic comes in (maybe)...even if it is a lie, or made up, or rather inspired in some way, there will always be the detractors, internal voices of doubt as well as that which concerns outer opinion, such as fact checkers, academies, government, non-government organizations, corporations, museums, occult orders, religions, etc, etc......
Practice of a ritual is an experiment and beyond the library, other than in ones catalogue, diaries, as concerns ones experimentation...
yes it is a worthy academic question, which might be answered by words such as fate or providence, and as there were many factors in AC's life that were of providential nature, of a kind that certainly was beyond just him....
I couldn't disagree more with you learned gentleman. Without at least a basic knowledge of the history and development of magic runs contrary to what Aleister Crowley required as a basic reading list of books that any Thelemite should be at least familiar with. In my opinion 99.9% of all magical theory comes from the Ancient Egyptians. Crowley himself said that adept should familiarize themselves with the gods and goddesses of Egypt and know their attributes. The depth of gratitude owed to the Greco-Roman-Egyptian magicians and necromancers, and the spells and rituals they left behind is incalculable, they form the basis for ALL of Crowley's magic. (Not to mention the esoteric teachings of the Hebrews and 1st Century Christians.) How could you make sense of Crowley's Liber 418 without an intimate knowledge of the Enochian texts of Dr, Dee? Practicing magic (K) without an intimate knowledge of source material is like driving a car without knowing how the engine works.
@toadstoolwe Crowley literally made up the entirety of the meaning of the Headlless Rite when he created Liber Samekh, as correctly argued by both Drs Sledge and Skinner.
His understanding of the whole corpus of John Dee was limited at best.
Yet, he made it work. And so many others did after him. In my own experience, magick (with the k) is anything but an intellectual pursuit. It's embodied, and it founds its success in constant dedication and repetition. Not differently than martial arts.
@toadstoolwe Crowley literally made up the entirety of the meaning of the Headlless Rite when he created Liber Samekh, as correctly argued by both Drs Sledge and Skinner.
His understanding of the whole corpus of John Dee was limited at best.
Yet, he made it work. And so many others did after him. In my own experience, magick (with the k) is anything but an intellectual pursuit. It's embodied, and it founds its success in constant dedication and repetition. Not differently than martial arts.
Crowley literally made up the entirety of the meaning of the Headlless Rite when he created Liber Samekh, as correctly argued by both Drs Sledge and Skinner.
[Bold added by me, to emphasize:]
Tiger: "What is your Thelema ?"
Firstly, that AC intended the Thelema described in his most important book for it, The Book of the Law, to be understood as a guide given to us in our evolution towards conscious godhead.
Secondly, that the core message of his second-most important book for his Thelema, The Vision and the Voice, is "... the three-fold Regimen which alone constitutes the Great Work."
azrael2393: "I am one of those who insists that Thelema has very little to do with Ancient Egyptian Heka, or ANY "ancient magic" at all, and I constantly get harassed online for saying it".
" In all of the Ancient Egyptian creation myths, the world was said to have emerged from an infinite, lifeless sea when the sun rose for the first time, in a distant period known as zp tpj (sometimes transcribed as Zep Tepi), "the first occasion". [...]
[According to] The creation myth promulgated in the city of Hermopolis, the inherent qualities of the primeval waters were represented by a set of eight gods, called the Ogdoad [...] [among whom] Huh and his counterpart Hauhet represented the water's infinite extent ...". [...]
[According to the creation myth promulgated] "In Heliopolis [...] the earth god Geb and the sky goddess Nut, [...] defined the limits of the world. "
( Source: Ancient Egyptian creation myths[.] [...] From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[.] - - - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Egyptian_creation_myths )
That Aleister Crowley's Thelema does not represent (accurate) knowledge about Ancient Egypt, is demonstrated by the following from Crowley's use of "the voice" of the Ancient Egyptian goddess Nut in his core text for this Thelema:
"... I am Infinite Space, and the Infinite Stars thereof, ...".
azrael2393: "Does anyone happen to know any sources on how the Headless Rite fom the PGM made its way into the curriculum of the Golden Dawn? That is, how did then Crowley come to know about it?"
Within the one hour long video below, author and magician Stephen Skinner says six good things about AC during the 13 first minutes, and talks about how AC messed up the "Headless Rite fom the PGM", from 55 minutes and 39 seconds until 57 minutes 47 seconds.
( Source: "Crowley's Four Books of Magick by Stephen Skinner" - - - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9VQltRNPpI )
But regardless, I am still trying to find out if there is any data points regardless how this Rite made its way into Crowley's hands and from there into his edition of the Goetia.
Mathers of course.
http://www.jwmt.org/v1n7/bornless.html#4
I am going to go out on a limb, and question whether Crowley "Made up" the Bornless Ritual, or was he supernaturally inspired? If we take the concept of divine intelligences that can be summoned and banished at will by a practitioner, who is to say that a greater, more insightful knowledge of fairly complex systems can be revealed. You state that Crowley's knowledge of Dr. Dee's corpus of works "is limited" How do you come to that conclusion? His knowledge of the Enochian language and the hierarchy of angels is well demonstrated in Liber 418, and his invocation of Choronzon, and subsequent visions. Crowley also had a strong knowledge and admiration for Eliphas Levi, believing himself to be his incarnation, and having translated his writings. (The key to the Mysteries) I do agree with you that repetition and dedication are essential to some level of success.
My open book divination of the day yielded this quote, which I have posted on another thread, but is apropos here as well:
"A myth is not so much an expression of one particular time as it is an expression of time. What was ancient for us was in its own time a reworking for what was ancient for the ancients" William Irwin Thompson, The Time Falling Bodies Take to Light, pg 210
@toadstoolwe because he was working with the Enochian system inherited from the Golden Dawn, which is not even close to the whole thing as devised by Dee and Kelly. Case in point, "Choronzon" doesn't even appear in the original Angelic Conversation, rather the name given is "Coronzom", and its role vastly different than what we find in Thelema.
Anyway, I think I got the answers I was looking for.
Thank you all who replied!
@azrael2393 What are the answers, or is it a secret to be revealed later? I seriously would like to know. Again, I maintain that the Enochian angelic hierarchy. revealed new truths to the members of the G.'. D.'. But that's just my take on the whole matter, valid or not.
You're entitled to your UPG of course.
The answer seems that there is no strict evidence, besides that it something popular due to the Egyptomania of the times, and likely Mathers just circulated it within the Order.
@azrael2393 Good Lord! That's the answer? That's the same conclusion that Dr. Sledge came up with. Or perhaps you did as well in conferring with him. "The answer dear Horatio, lies not in the stars, but in ourselves."
I am going to go out on a limb
Uh-huh. Fasten your seat belts.
whether Crowley "Made up" the Bornless Ritual, or was he supernaturally inspired?
Psst! Hey you. The word "supernatural" is sort of a dirty or degraded word around here (according to various encounters and definitions dragged out over the Eras. You have just used it in its "stupid" form (no offense intended).
It is "stupid" because nothing can happen or take place unless by following the laws of nature. There is no such thing as supernatural.
Suprarational is another thing.
Suprarational is another thing. That will work. Also, we don't really know the laws of nature.
Thank you. I have examined the link. I do not have any of these in my hard-book or digital-borg library ... or even my memory, as I never heard of them before.
Worth it,I think, for looking in to the earlier days of the Hermetic synthesis.
You thereby demonstrate that practicing AC's Thelema, does not require any knowledge whatsoever, about "The Papyri Graecae Magicae, aka the Greek Magical Papyri."
And the preceding fact is congruent with the reality that neither is any accurate knowledge whatsoever, about Ancient Egypt and Ancient Egyptians, required to practice AC's Thelema.
This is quite true, as demonstrated by many other people in the Thelemic community.
I am one of those who insists that Thelema has very little to do with Ancient Egyptian Heka, or ANY "ancient magic" at all,
Also quite true, it's more a 20th century synthesis with more to do with the romanticization of ancient Egypt than anything else.
Crowley literally made up the entirety of the meaning of the Headless Rite when he created Liber Samekh, as correctly argued by both Drs Sledge and Skinner.
Agreed here as well. He certainly made up meanings for the barbarous words, and added his own interpretations. The rite was originally used for exorcism, though it does include identification with a divine force. But how it's used today is not the way it was originally intended.
Which doesn't mean it hasn't produced results in keeping with its modern application.
He was basically a Chaos Magician in some senses. 😉
His understanding of the whole corpus of John Dee was limited at best.
Being based in the Golden Dawn's reworking of the system rather than on the original form.
I am going to go out on a limb, and question whether Crowley "Made up" the Bornless Ritual, or was he supernaturally inspired?
He made up meanings for parts of it, based on his own intuitions, and applied it in a new way. The rite itself derives from the Stele of Jeu.
I am one of those who insists that Thelema has very little to do with Ancient Egyptian Heka, or ANY "ancient magic" at all,
Ancient Egyptian heka and Egyptian theology, Chaldean magic, Greco-_Egyptian magic are the foundation of Thelema. Just as Hinduism is the basis for Buddhism, and Judaism is for Christianity. Without one, you can't have the other.
Maybe it is not a requirement, but certainly it would do no harm to study it. It helps make sense of some of the more obscure elements and adds to the richness of the literature. Also, learning some basic Greek words and the alphabet, you gain a greater respect for Aleister Crowley the scholar. Many of his quotations are in Ancient Greek.You thereby demonstrate that practicing AC's Thelema, does not require any knowledge whatsoever, about "The Papyri Graecae Magicae, aka the Greek Magical Papyri."
Intuition or divine inspiration?He made up meanings for parts of it, based on his own intuitions, and applied it in a new way. The rite itself derives from the Stele of Jeu.
Ancient Egyptian heka and Egyptian theology, Chaldean magic, Greco-_Egyptian magic are the foundation of Thelema.
Those all blended before that, they're the basis for Hermeticism.
Maybe it is not a requirement, but certainly it would do no harm to study it. It helps make sense of some of the more obscure elements and adds to the richness of the literature.
I agree, and, for some, deeper knowledge can help with forming deeper connection to the practices.
Intuition or divine inspiration?
You say that as though the difference between the two doesn't become academic at a point. 😉
But aren't the building blocks of Hermeticism the same as that of Thelema? Didn't Crowley write The Gnostic Mass? Aren't the teachings both have the goal of recognizing one's own gnosis?Those all blended before that, they're the basis for Hermeticism.
Pardon my ignorance, but what does academic mean in the context of inspiration and intuition? Are you saying that they are completely different, or do they commonality?You say that as though the difference between the two doesn't become academic at a point.
@toadstoolwe
Are you saying that they are completely different, or do they commonality?
I meant that a certain point there is no practical difference between the two.
But aren't the building blocks of Hermeticism the same as that of Thelema? Didn't Crowley write The Gnostic Mass? Aren't the teachings both have the goal of recognizing one's own gnosis?Those all blended before that, they're the basis for Hermeticism.
In part, yes. Thelema's magickal system is based on the Golden Dawn's, which blends Hermeticism with Rosicrucianism, Masonry, and Hermetic Qabalah. But to say that Thelemic magick = Hermetic magick in its original form would not be totally correct.
Maybe it is not a requirement, but certainly it would do no harm to study it.
The A.'.A.'. Student Reading List was advertised to fulfill The Task of a Student, which was, and still is, "To become familiar with all systems of attainment."
Your offer of safety in studying ancient magical writs is comforting, and it would certainly fit into said List.
The original List was, as might be expected, composed of mostly Crowley books, but included some classics from the major disciplines. It did not come close to even identifying all systems.
You say that as though the difference between the two doesn't become academic at a point.
At the point of first utterance. Intuition is Binah, above the Abyss. Inspiration is Atu 2, coming down through [across] the Abyss. Discussion of supra-abyssmal things, especially differences, comes with a built-in advanced directive to go directly to litigation in The Paradox Court.
But aren't the building blocks of Hermeticism the same as that of Thelema?
Everything mentioned above, in the whole thread, is a building block. There are big monoliths, medium quarry stones, small blocks, and tiny bricks. They are all involved. One can trace Thelema, OTO, GD, Masonry to each other, and back to known or obscure ancient nouns (people, places, things).
We cannot necessarily draw dots between everything, if we are just searching the foundations of Thelema. But if we cite Arcane Science, then yes everything can be connected like the internet.
While exhuming these so-called foundations of Thelema, I noticed that the Oriental guys got left out. Here, I will add them: Raja Yoga, Tao Teh Ching, I Ching.
Your (you, anyone) assignment, if you have time to pull it off, is to discover obscure links between The East and the West - prior to, say, 800 ev - we all know about the Templar-Hashishin conspiracy, which was not a "theory," but was commemorated by Baphomet [R] in the Minerval and first 3 degrees of the OTongO, wherein a European (from Corinth, or a Templar captured by the Saracen) is dragged into Saladin's tent, and made to be obedient - and then he/she is fed.
The Templars supposedly got a secret from the Sufis, and it ended up in The Scanturary of the Gnosis IX.
Yeah, that story. So where are similar encounters between East & West before 800?
Your (you, anyone) assignment, if you have time to pull it off, is to discover obscure links between The East and the West - prior to, say, 800 ev - we all know about the Templar-Hashishin conspiracy, which was not a "theory," but was commemorated by Baphomet [R] in the Minerval and first 3 degrees of the OTongO, wherein a European (from Corinth, or a Templar captured by the Saracen) is dragged into Saladin's tent, and made to be obedient - and then he/she is fed.
Yes, I discovered one possible, intriguing link of the synchronicity of beliefs in both East and West. The discovery of the Pompeii Lakshimi, a Hindu deity discovered in the famous ruins of Pompeii and Herculaneum in 1938. Sometimes we forget that some of the great ideas of humanity are acquired by peaceful trade between diverse cultures. The Ancient Romans were very open to foreign religious concepts and deities. Does this prove that the teachings of Hinduism became popular among the Romans? Possibly. My theory is that the Lakshmi statue was the house god of a Indian trader. In any case, no culture develops in a vacuum. Nor do ideas and theologies.
Here, I will add them: Raja Yoga, Tao Teh Ching, I Ching.
Thelema itself being a hybrid of Western Ceremonial Magick and Yoga.
Your (you, anyone) assignment, if you have time to pull it off, is to discover obscure links between The East and the West - prior to, say, 800 ev - we all know about the Templar-Hashishin conspiracy,
Much later than 800, but let's not forget that alchemy can in interpreted as a form of yoga.
Thelema itself being a hybrid of Western Ceremonial Magick and Yoga.
That's pretty much it's parentage. We are limited to two parents. Let's be specific: Western Ceremonial as portrayed by The Golden Dawn,* which could easily be classified as the high-water mark of the art. This was Thelema's daddy.
- *Note that G.D. had a father, one grandfather of Thelema: Masonry.
- *Note that in the East (Kashmir, HPB-land), it is The Golden Temple.
Thelema's mommy came out of that East, first posing as a Buddhist nun, but soon showed her Patanjali side, which Perdurabo embraced.
For proof of this obvious axiomatic designation, see Liber 444, where "Meditation" is The Eight Limbs of Raja Yoga ... and Ceremonial Magic (no K) is the banished circle and external triangle, and all the instruments of the Gothic-Goetic art. Magick (with the k) comes in (Part III) as How to make it work. Part III was written by Therion, not Perdurabo (the author of Parts I & II).
This is backed up with Part IV, technically published as The Equinox of the Gods.
It should be noted that the operating manual, Part III, is mostly an extensive elucidation of Ceremonial Magic, without much reference to Raja Yoga ... so he still favors his daddy and sidelines his mommy.
However, in juxtaposition to this bias, we find that Therion comes clean, telling us Every act is a Magickal Act! This puts him on the same footing as the Zen guys ...
That's it. Thelema in a box. Book Four (complete, please). GD Father, RY Mother. Absolutely nothing else is needed beyond this box for one to become a fundamentalist Thelemite. Let's call it Man or Woman of Earth.
What an odd coincidence, I was just watching an episode of Justin Sledge's online series of lectures on magic and occultism."ESTORICA" He has a entire episode on Ancient Greco-Egyptian magic texts referring the Headless One, or The Bornless One. And it it's influence on Crowley's Liber Semekn I would strongly suggest you at least check his site out.
Almost everything Dr. Sledge does on Esoterica is worth time and close attention.
Not differently than martial arts.
You mean other than in the ability to prove the efficacy of it objectively? 😉