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"Shiva" wrote:
I was (used to be) under the impression that "the most terrific penalties" usually involved an unworthy claimant simply dying prematurely. Now I'm not so sure about that.

What, like  a voodoo curse? Oh dear you actually thought that?


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Anonymous
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"Los" wrote:
Well, I don't know about that. The trance stuff is nice, but the bread and butter of KCHGA is the practical changes it allows you to work in your life -- to reorder your life so as to bring it into alignment with your True Will (hence, the "magical power" of 5=6). To put much weight on trances at all is to invite distraction.

I agree that trances without reordering our lives is nothing but buddhism (admittedly buddhism heavily influenced Crowley) and I'm afraid that the Buddhist gets his flesh torn out i.e. it's obsolete.  "Zen" literally means "trance" but hey ho.  You did a good blog piece on the flaws of zen and how it nearly reaches True Will (I mention this as some people here may find it helpful http://thelema-and-skepticism.blogspot.co.uk/2014/01/mailbag-thelema-and-zen.html ) .............but nearly just isn't good enough.  A 1000 years ago sure, but not now.   

Crowley advocated that people experience Samadhi in order to help them in their careers.


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Michael Staley
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"david" wrote:
I'd say any sort of self-strengthening trance state is indicative of moving towards discovery of True Will/HGA.

What's a "self-strengthening trance state", david? How does it differ from a non "self-strengthening" trance state? On what grounds do you say that "any sort of self-strengthening trance state" is  "indicative of moving towards discovery of True Will /HGA" ?


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Michael Staley
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"david" wrote:
"Los" wrote:
Well, I don't know about that. The trance stuff is nice, but the bread and butter of KCHGA is the practical changes it allows you to work in your life -- to reorder your life so as to bring it into alignment with your True Will (hence, the "magical power" of 5=6). To put much weight on trances at all is to invite distraction.

I agree that trances without reordering our lives is nothing but buddhism . . .

How is it the case that "trances without reordering our lives is nothing but buddhism", david? What's your experience of trance states and of Buddhism that leads you to this conclusion?


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Anonymous
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"Michael Staley" wrote:
How is it the case that "trances without reordering our lives is nothing but buddhism", david?

Ah someone may benefit from reading Los's piece on zen.  Did you miss my link?

"Michael Staley" wrote:
"david" wrote:
I'd say any sort of self-strengthening trance state is indicative of moving towards discovery of True Will/HGA.

What's a "self-strengthening trance state", david? How does it differ from a non "self-strengthening" trance state? On what grounds do you say that "any sort of self-strengthening trance state" is  "indicative of moving towards discovery of True Will /HGA" ?

Do you have a mental hospital near you?  if so, take a trip down there and ask to be shown around the schizo section.  You'll get to see a fair bit of  non "self-strengthening" trance states.  Similarly, visit a new age channelling group.  Hey you may meet some like-minded people!


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Michael Staley
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"david" wrote:
"Michael Staley" wrote:
"david" wrote:
I'd say any sort of self-strengthening trance state is indicative of moving towards discovery of True Will/HGA.

What's a "self-strengthening trance state", david? How does it differ from a non "self-strengthening" trance state? On what grounds do you say that "any sort of self-strengthening trance state" is  "indicative of moving towards discovery of True Will /HGA" ?

Do you have a mental hospital near you?  if so, take a trip down there and ask to be shown around the schizo section.  You'll get to see a fair bit of  non "self-strengthening" trance states.  Similarly, visit a new age channelling group.  Hey you may meet some like-minded people!

So you'll have no difficulty, david, in giving us an example of a "self-strengthening trance state" and how such a state is "indicative of moving towards discovery of True Will / HGA".


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"Michael Staley" wrote:
So you'll have no difficulty, david, in giving us an example of a "self-strengthening trance state" and how such a state is "indicative of moving towards discovery of True Will / HGA".

I refer you to Crowley's writings and advice about "trances" and "joy" (his lectures and books on yoga and so on) but unless you have an attitude of scientific scepticism you may be led astray and in that case it may not be "indicative of moving towards discovery of True Will / HGA."  What do you want from me; poetic gush/descriptions and accounts of psychedelic astral breath- taking imagery and physiological descriptions of any accounts of bliss?  What are you a groupie or something?  Seriously it's in the methodology and attitude not in the end result: Method : science. Aim: trance (otherwise known as "religion.")     


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Michael Staley
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"david" wrote:
"Michael Staley" wrote:
So you'll have no difficulty, david, in giving us an example of a "self-strengthening trance state" and how such a state is "indicative of moving towards discovery of True Will / HGA".

I refer you to Crowley's writings and advice about "trances" and "joy" (his lectures and books on yoga and so on) but unless you have an attitude of scientific scepticism you may be led astray and in that case it may not be "indicative of moving towards discovery of True Will / HGA."  What do you want from me; poetic gush/descriptions and accounts of psychedelic astral breath- taking imagery and physiological descriptions of any accounts of bliss?  What are you a groupie or something?  Seriously it's in the methodology and attitude not in the end result: Method : science. Aim: trance (otherwise known as "religion.")     

What I'm looking for from you is an explanation of the terms you are using, more specifically how a "self-strengthening trance state" might be "indicative of moving towards discovery of True Will / HGA". What's that supposed to mean?


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jamie barter
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Yes, you seem most reluctant to answer this point, david.  In fact, you don’t appear to have addressed this actual query in, or any of, my own post at all:

"jamie barter" wrote:
"Los" wrote:
Yeah, my replies on that one were pretty good, if I do say so myself.

Didn’t you forget to add “(The cheques in the post, david)” there, Los? ;D

The honeymoon period of this mutual admiration society ('evidentally' more on one side than the other, though) seems to be going into ‘injury time’ here (to mix up my metaphors).  Isn’t it about time you changed your belief system again, david?  When you first began posting, it wasn’t very long at all before you took up contrary stances to your original propositions.  It seems as if you’re not wanting to be skeptical about your current (pro-skeptical) position at the moment.  Can this be a sign of some sort of stability here?

"david" wrote:
I'd say any sort of self-strengthening trance state is indicative of moving towards discovery of True Will/HGA.  It depends imo if they grasp Crowley's writings (or grasp the concepts from some other source) and are actually applying that advice then yes those True Will (HGA union) trance states and a better way of being /living are very real.

Taking it that you consider yourself to be a Thelemite (please indicate if I am wrong here), would you say that you “grasp Crowley’s writings” and “apply his advice” in your own practice yourself?  And, again taking it that you approve here, would you mind explaining what self-strengthening trance states have you personally experienced which have helped you in the direction of discovering your True Will = HGA?

“Very real” – as distinct from “really real”, maybe?

I notice you never satisfactorily defined what you understood by 8=3, either (or as Los would say: in your own words, rather than copying words off a page [e.g. One Star in Sight] now.)

In addition to gushing over his testimonials, don’t say you’re beginning to pick up Los’s bad habits as well?!?!  (By which I mean, for example: ignoring irksome, awkward points in posters' replies; a snotty innate sense of superiority, know-it-allness & smarminess with regard to certain other responses; etc...)

N Joy


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Anonymous
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"Michael Staley" wrote:
What I'm looking for from you is an explanation of the terms you are using, more specifically how a "self-strengthening trance state" might be "indicative of moving towards discovery of True Will / HGA". What's that supposed to mean?

You think it's badly written?  I don't. Break it down;"self" "strengthening" as opppose to any feelings of weakness or discomfort.  "True will"/ "hga"?  Crowley described TW as a form of purposeless motion did he not when he cited the movements of dancer Isador Duncan as an analogy etc etc?  Y'see even Crowley had difficulties describing these subjective states.  Why not play computer chess or something instead of trying to play these silly games with me? 


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William Thirteen
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okay - i'll try...

a trance which strengthens the self (Self? sense of self?) may indicate that the discovery of the True Will / HGA (are they the same thing here?) is just around the bend. then again, it may not....  but a trance which weakens the self (Self? sense of self?) might retard the discovery of the True Will / HGA (are they the same thing here?). then again it may not. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weasel_word


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Michael Staley
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"WilliamThirteen" wrote:
okay - i'll try...

a trance which strengthens the self (Self? sense of self?) may indicate that the discovery of the True Will / HGA (are they the same thing here?) is just around the bend. then again, it may not....  but a trance which weakens the self (Self? sense of self?) might retard the discovery of the True Will / HGA (are they the same thing here?). then again it may not. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weasel_word

Thanks, William. That's probably a fair stab. Personally I think that strangthening the sense of self has little if anything to do with "True Will / HGA", let alone being "indicative of" moving towards it, but that's my opinion.


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Michael Staley
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Don't forget this one, david . . .

"Michael Staley" wrote:
"david" wrote:
"Los" wrote:
Well, I don't know about that. The trance stuff is nice, but the bread and butter of KCHGA is the practical changes it allows you to work in your life -- to reorder your life so as to bring it into alignment with your True Will (hence, the "magical power" of 5=6). To put much weight on trances at all is to invite distraction.

I agree that trances without reordering our lives is nothing but buddhism . . .

How is it the case that "trances without reordering our lives is nothing but buddhism", david? What's your experience of trance states and of Buddhism that leads you to this conclusion?


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"jamie barter" wrote:
Yes, you seem most reluctant to answer this point, david.  In fact, you don’t appear to have addressed this actual query in, or any of, my own post at all:

"jamie barter" wrote:
"Los" wrote:
Yeah, my replies on that one were pretty good, if I do say so myself.

In addition to gushing over his testimonials, don’t say you’re beginning to pick up Los’s bad habits as well?!?!  (By which I mean, for example: ignoring irksome, awkward points in posters' replies; a snotty innate sense of superiority, know-it-allness & smarminess with regard to certain other responses; etc...)

N Joy

.
I gush over a lot of things I find valuable  and worthy. Wa-hey. .  If you're small-minded then you can categorize it as sycophantic or the like. As it's a trans-ego situation discussing trans-ego mattters I don't care whereas you seem to be driven by anything but trans-ego matters and hey that's why I may avoid any silly questions or attempted provocations you throw my way.

8=3 in my own words? I haven't taken the oath so how  could I adequately talk about in great detail?  No I  cannot take that oath at this time.   


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belmurru
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"Shiva" wrote:
By the way, if we look carefully into Thelemic history, we will find that most (all?) of them who have signed themselves 8=3 did so "attain" by claiming the grade from a position that was far below 7=4. Who amongst them could say (or demonstrate) that "I earned every degree from 0=0 up to 7=4 before I claimed 8=3?" Achad? Parsons? Brayton? McMurtry? Motta? No-no-no-none.

Don't forget to add Crowley himself to that list.

After his 5=6 GD initiation in Paris in January 1900, he was on his own. He defined the terms of his initiations.


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Los
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"Michael Staley" wrote:
Don't forget this one, david . . .

So many questions you have. One is reminded of Blake's "idiot Questioner, who is always questioning, But never capable of answering"


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Los
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"david" wrote:
Seriously it's in the methodology and attitude not in the end result: Method : science. Aim: trance (otherwise known as "religion.")

I don't agree that we ought to parse "religion" in this context as meaning "trance." I think the best reading of "religion" in the context of Thelemic attainment is the word's earlier sense of re-ligio, a relinking. Specifically, one is reforging a link back to one's self.

I also have to add my voice to those who aren't impressed by the kind of sloppy terminology of "self-strengthening trance." It's too poorly defined and too wooly a phrase. One does not judge that one has achieved KCHGA (that is, discovered the True Will) by paying attention to trances, any more than one judges by paying attention to one's imaginary friends.

That being said, there is a kind of trance that accompanies KCHGA, which we might describe as the "Beatific Vision," whose characteristics include feelings of joy and glory and which consists largely of feeling that most of the perceived barriers between self and the universe have lifted. You'll know it when it happens. But the thing is that trances, in and of themselves, are worthless: they're not even reliable markers of achievement. As Crowley once wrote, "There may come a time when Samadhi itself is no part of the business of the mystic. But the character developed by the original training remains an asset."


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jamie barter
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"david" wrote:
8=3 in my own words? I haven't taken the oath so how  could I adequately talk about in great detail?  No I  cannot take that oath at this time.

This does not make sense.  Of course you can form an opinion & talk about it in your own words without having done something.  Do you really want me, using the methodology of Los, to go ahead and give you examples at great length?

And no, nobody was ever asking you to "take the oath at this time"?!? 😮

Incidentally though, along these lines I wonder if Los has ever taken the oath himself - as a scientific experiment to assess any results ensuing of course.  And if not, why not.  I think we should be told.

"david" wrote:
.
I gush over a lot of things I find valuable  and worthy. Wa-hey. .  If you're small-minded then you can categorize it as sycophantic or the like. As it's a trans-ego situation discussing trans-ego mattters I don't care whereas you seem to be driven by anything but trans-ego matters and hey that's why I may avoid any silly questions or attempted provocations you throw my way.

Also incidentally, I wasn’t saying Los was a snotty, rather smarmy superior sanctimonious know-it-all there.

I was saying he should stop habitually acting like one, (since this is bad. 🙁 )

Can it be though, that you might have been willing to commit yourself further david, but upon receiving the following subliminal(?!) suggestion from Los:

Reply #41 by Los on: Yesterday at 12:24:14 am:
Quote from: david on Yesterday at 12:13:27 am:
I'd say any sort of self-strengthening trance state is indicative of moving towards discovery of True Will/HGA.

Well, I don't know about that. [...]

for some mysterious reason you then changed your eagerness to hold forth?  I put it to you that the ‘reason’ for this, according to the ‘evidence’ I have reviewed, is that you were unwilling, or wary at the least, to take the risk of invoking your guru’s scorn by continuing to do so.  Maybe you are worried it might be construed as crossing over into ‘enemy' supernaturalist territory? 😮  😀

Fear not, though!  When your time is up, it is fairly inevitable that you will be dealt with in the fiery pit of scorn by Los, same as everybody else who doesn’t strictly toe the skeptic party line (or ’step in time’, as Dick vanDyke might put it in Mary Poppins).

Your happy thought for the day here! ;D
N Joy.


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Anonymous
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"Michael Staley" wrote:
"WilliamThirteen" wrote:
okay - i'll try...

a trance which strengthens the self (Self? sense of self?) may indicate that the discovery of the True Will / HGA (are they the same thing here?) is just around the bend. then again, it may not....  but a trance which weakens the self (Self? sense of self?) might retard the discovery of the True Will / HGA (are they the same thing here?). then again it may not. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weasel_word

Thanks, William. That's probably a fair stab. Personally I think that strangthening the sense of self has little if anything to do with "True Will / HGA", let alone being "indicative of" moving towards it, but that's my opinion.

"Sense of self" hahaha misquote me why don't you?  Self as in "HGA" or connection with deep self which really is who we are.


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Anonymous
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"WilliamThirteen" wrote:
okay - i'll try...

a trance which strengthens the self (Self? sense of self?) may indicate that the discovery of the True Will / HGA (are they the same thing here?) is just around the bend. then again, it may not....  but a trance which weakens the self (Self? sense of self?) might retard the discovery of the True Will / HGA (are they the same thing here?). then again it may not. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weasel_word

That's a serious accusation. If you have a spine then explain yourself.  If not then ignore this or backpedal.


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William Thirteen
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that was a question not a misquote.  the word 'self' is so vague as to be almost meaningless. i was simply indicating this and hoping for clarification. 

so you would revise it to say

"a trance which strengthens the Self (as in "HGA" or connection with deep self which really is who we are)  is indicative of moving towards discovery of True Will/HGA."

this would be comparable to the following sentence....

"an exercise which strengthens the biceps is indicative of moving towards discovery of the biceps"

that seems to put the cart before the horse though.  wouldn't one need to know of the existence of biceps in order to judge whether the exercise was strengthening them?  i suspect we are missing an operand somewhere in this equation.

you typed your next post while i was typing this. what accusation are you referring to? 


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Michael Staley
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"david" wrote:
That's a serious accusation. If you have a spine then explain yourself.  If not then ignore this or backpedal.

I can confirm that William has a spine. I attended a lecture of his at Treadwells a couple of months ago, and had a drink with him and others in a nearby pub afterwards, and without a spine he would have found these things difficult to undertake.

What is it about William's words which you regard as a "serious accusation"?

I suppose that, on the other hand, Los's description of your tem "self-strengthening trance" as "sloppy terminology" isn't regarded by you as a "serious accusation".


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Anonymous
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"WilliamThirteen" wrote:
you typed your next post while i was typing this. what accusation are you referring to? 

Never mind it doesn't matter.  You appeared to be calling me a weasel for some unknown reason.

"WilliamThirteen" wrote:
that was a question not a misquote.  the word 'self' is so vague as to be almost meaningless. i was simply indicating this and hoping for clarification. 

Well let's get Crowley's view on the matter as follows;

In Liber Samekh Crowley he explains, in more detail, the general mystical process of the ritual (i.e. the general work of any self-realization);
The Adept will be free to concentrate his deepest self, that part of him which unconsciously orders his true Will, upon the realization of his Holy Guardian Angel. The absence of his bodily, mental and astral consciousness is indeed cardinal to success, for it is their usurpation of his attention which has made him deaf to his Soul, and his preoccupation with their affairs that has prevented him from perceiving that Soul.

Is that vague also?  Why the confusion?  Like I said, "I'd say any sort of self-strengthening trance state is indicative of moving towards discovery of True Will/HGA". 

"WilliamThirteen" wrote:
so you would revise it to say

"a trance which strengthens the Self (as in "HGA" or connection with deep self which really is who we are)  is indicative of moving towards discovery of True Will/HGA."

this would be comparable to the following sentence....

"an exercise which strengthens the biceps is indicative of moving towards discovery of the biceps"

no.......see above.

"Michael Staley" wrote:

I suppose that, on the other hand, Los's description of your tem "self-strengthening trance" as "sloppy terminology" isn't regarded by you as a "serious accusation".

Los didn't throw the word "weasel" in and thankyou as yet again you throw in a negative narcy comment which has no bearing whatsoever on the adult discussion of this thread.  Jesus!!

"Los" wrote:
"david" wrote:
Seriously it's in the methodology and attitude not in the end result: Method : science. Aim: trance (otherwise known as "religion.")

I don't agree that we ought to parse "religion" in this context as meaning "trance." I think the best reading of "religion" in the context of Thelemic attainment is the word's earlier sense of re-ligio, a relinking. Specifically, one is reforging a link back to one's self.
."

Well yeah "dhyanas" (literally trances) lead to "union with God (or deepest self) " ie "Samadhi".

 

"Los" wrote:
[
I also have to add my voice to those who aren't impressed by the kind of sloppy terminology of "self-strengthening trance." It's too poorly defined and too wooly a phrase. One does not judge that one has achieved KCHGA (that is, discovered the True Will) by paying attention to trances, any more than one judges by paying attention to one's imaginary friends.

Then what happens when The Adept (is) free to concentrate his deepest self, that part of him which unconsciously orders his true Will, upon the realization of his Holy Guardian Angel. The absence of his bodily, mental and astral consciousness is indeed cardinal to success, for it is their usurpation of his attention which has made him deaf to his Soul, and his preoccupation with their affairs that has prevented him from perceiving that Soul.?  You're saying no trance is involved in this?  Meditation necessitates trance (dhyana)  as does invocation.

"Los" wrote:
[
That being said, there is a kind of trance that accompanies KCHGA, which we might describe as the "Beatific Vision," whose characteristics include feelings of joy and glory and which consists largely of feeling that most of the perceived barriers between self and the universe have lifted. You'll know it when it happens.

I don't see how that is different to my "any sort of self-strengthening trance state is indicative of moving towards discovery of True Will/HGA". 

"Los" wrote:
[
But the thing is that trances, in and of themselves, are worthless: they're not even reliable markers of achievement. As Crowley once wrote, "There may come a time when Samadhi itself is no part of the business of the mystic. But the character developed by the original training remains an asset."

"the character"?  Likewise that actually sounds woolly.  What is that?  Moral srength?  "Wisdom"?  "Compassion"?  "Empathy"? 


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Tao
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Well now I'm all kinds of confused. david, a few pages back you contradicted my assertion that discovering the True Will and achieving K&CHGA are not the same thing by saying:

"david" wrote:
I take it that the HGA is an absurd term used to describe the true self or deep self or real self and as true will is the dynamic aspect of those things then hey I'm not with you.

Now you're quoting Crowley when he says:

"david" wrote:
The Adept will be free to concentrate his deepest self, that part of him which unconsciously orders his true Will, upon the realization of his Holy Guardian Angel. The absence of his bodily, mental and astral consciousness is indeed cardinal to success, for it is their usurpation of his attention which has made him deaf to his Soul, and his preoccupation with their affairs that has prevented him from perceiving that Soul.

Crowley seems to be saying that the "deepest self", which is the part that unconsciously orders the true Will, is the part that the Adept can concentrate towards the "realization of his Holy Guardian Angel." He then equates this HGA to "his Soul", not his deepest self.

In your previous post you seem to be saying that all of these things are one and that the distinction that Crowley makes above is false.

Am I following you correctly? Which one do you really mean?


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Tao
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"Los" wrote:
That being said, there is a kind of trance that accompanies KCHGA, which we might describe as the "Beatific Vision," whose characteristics include feelings of joy and glory and which consists largely of feeling that most of the perceived barriers between self and the universe have lifted. You'll know it when it happens.

How would you distinguish this from the Vision of the Holy Guardian Angel listed as the magical power of Malkuth in 777, col.XLV?

Also... "You'll know it when it happens"? You'd better hope Los doesn't see this post. He'll never let you live down that bit of unsupported assertion.  ???


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Los
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"david" wrote:
[WilliamThirteen] appeared to be calling me a weasel for some unknown reason.

No, he was suggesting that you were employing "weasel words," which is a term for a vague statement that gives the person making the vague statement room to "weasel" out of any particular interpretation that doesn't please said person. It's not an insult, and it's not the equivalent of calling you a "weasel." William even provided a link where you can learn about the term.

It appears that you need to calm down a little.

"Los" wrote:
I also have to add my voice to those who aren't impressed by the kind of sloppy terminology of "self-strengthening trance." It's too poorly defined and too wooly a phrase. One does not judge that one has achieved KCHGA (that is, discovered the True Will) by paying attention to trances, any more than one judges by paying attention to one's imaginary friends.

Then what happens when The Adept (is) free to concentrate his deepest self, that part of him which unconsciously orders his true Will, upon the realization of his Holy Guardian Angel. The absence of his bodily, mental and astral consciousness is indeed cardinal to success, for it is their usurpation of his attention which has made him deaf to his Soul, and his preoccupation with their affairs that has prevented him from perceiving that Soul.?  You're saying no trance is involved in this?  Meditation necessitates trance (dhyana)  as does invocation.

No, I'm not claiming that "no trance is involved in this." I'm saying that "one does not judge" that one has achieved the result by paying attention to the trance.

"Los" wrote:
That being said, there is a kind of trance that accompanies KCHGA, which we might describe as the "Beatific Vision," whose characteristics include feelings of joy and glory and which consists largely of feeling that most of the perceived barriers between self and the universe have lifted. You'll know it when it happens.

I don't see how that is different to my "any sort of self-strengthening trance state is indicative of moving towards discovery of True Will/HGA".

You don't see because you're not reading carefully enough. Your statement claims that a trance is "indicative" of something, implying that one may judge, from the experience of the trance, that one has achieved the result. My statement simply notes that the trance accompanies the result. I make no claims as to what a trance, by itself, might indicate, nor do I make claims about the "self strengthening" or "self weakening" nature of the trance, which are phrases that strike me as poorly defined and not terribly useful. 

"Los" wrote:
But the thing is that trances, in and of themselves, are worthless: they're not even reliable markers of achievement. As Crowley once wrote, "There may come a time when Samadhi itself is no part of the business of the mystic. But the character developed by the original training remains an asset."

"the character"?  Likewise that actually sounds woolly.  What is that?  Moral srength?  "Wisdom"?  "Compassion"?  "Empathy"? 

A google search turns up the following useful definition: "the mental and moral qualities distinctive to an individual." In the passage from Magick in Theory and Practice that I'm quoting from, Crowley goes on immediately to say that a mind made sufficiently elastic is better equipped to tackle problems.


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Los
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"Tao" wrote:
"Los" wrote:
That being said, there is a kind of trance that accompanies KCHGA, which we might describe as the "Beatific Vision," whose characteristics include feelings of joy and glory and which consists largely of feeling that most of the perceived barriers between self and the universe have lifted. You'll know it when it happens.

How would you distinguish this from the Vision of the Holy Guardian Angel listed as the magical power of Malkuth in 777, col.XLV?

I'd say that the Vision of the Holy Guardian Angel -- I think it's called the Vision of Adonai in 777, but I'd have to check -- is a "first glimpse" of perceiving the self without the usual barriers that the mind puts up. It's almost necessarily a glimpse because at that stage of development, one typically doesn't have enough training to keep the focus on the self: one's thoughts and assumptions very quickly intrude on the experience and shut it down.

The actual Knowledge and Conversation is accompanied by the vision I mention in my above post -- which Crowley in 777 calls something like "The Vision of Beauty Triumphant" -- and these feelings of profound joy, beauty, perfection, and peace tend to last for a while until they slowly fade. Gradually, one can learn how to bring on this trance when desired, and eventually one acquires the ability to "switch" into this mode more or less at will. But again, it's not the trance that's significant: it's what the trance allows one to do, which is to perceive and carry out the True Will.


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Anonymous
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"Tao" wrote:
Well now I'm all kinds of confused. david, a few pages back you contradicted my assertion that discovering the True Will and achieving K&CHGA are not the same thing by saying:

"david" wrote:
I take it that the HGA is an absurd term used to describe the true self or deep self or real self and as true will is the dynamic aspect of those things then hey I'm not with you.

Now you're quoting Crowley when he says:

"david" wrote:
The Adept will be free to concentrate his deepest self, that part of him which unconsciously orders his true Will, upon the realization of his Holy Guardian Angel. The absence of his bodily, mental and astral consciousness is indeed cardinal to success, for it is their usurpation of his attention which has made him deaf to his Soul, and his preoccupation with their affairs that has prevented him from perceiving that Soul.

Crowley seems to be saying that the "deepest self", which is the part that unconsciously orders the true Will, is the part that the Adept can concentrate towards the "realization of his Holy Guardian Angel." He then equates this HGA to "his Soul", not his deepest self.

In your previous post you seem to be saying that all of these things are one and that the distinction that Crowley makes above is false.

Am I following you correctly? Which one do you really mean?

Ask yourself what he really meant.  Does this ; "the HGA is an absurd term used to describe the true self or deep self or real self and as true will is the dynamic aspect of those things" contradict this; "The Adept will be free to concentrate his deepest self, that part of him which unconsciously orders his true Will, upon the realization of his Holy Guardian Angel. The absence of his bodily, mental and astral consciousness is indeed cardinal to success, for it is their usurpation of his attention which has made him deaf to his Soul, and his preoccupation with their affairs that has prevented him from perceiving that Soul"?

This is the trouble with spiritual science and using terms which the confused can easily put into interchangeable terms.  "Soul"?  The" HGA" or "soul" in his description appears to symbolize that which is unattainable and ineffable and us striving to this irrational non existent thing leads to KAC/TW.   

However to clarify matters in the Heart of the Master he explains that: The Way of Perfection is thus twofold: first, the True Will must be consciously grasped by the Mind, and this Work is akin to that called the attainment of the Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel. Second, as it is written:`Thou hast no right but to do thy will,'each particle of energy which the Instrument is able to develop must be directed to the doing of that Will.

In his `new comment'5 to AL I,"So also our own Silent Self, helpless and witless, hidden within us, will spring forth, if we have craft to loose him to the Light, spring lustily forward with his cry of Battle, the Word of our True Wills. This is the Task of the Adept, to have the Knowledge and Conversation of His Holy Guardian Angel, to become aware of his nature and his purpose, fulfilling them.

In his `new comment' to AL II, 65: It is curious that this verse should be numbered 65, suggesting L.V.X. and Adonai, the Holy Guardian Angel. It seems then that He is Hadit. I have never liked the term 'Higher Self'; True Self is more the idea. For each Star is the husk of Hadit, unique and conqueror, sublime in His own virtue, independent of Hierarchy. There is an external hierarchy, of course, but that is only a matter of convenience."

Hope that helps.


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Tao
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"david" wrote:
This is the trouble with spiritual science and using terms which the confused can easily put into interchangeable terms.  "Soul"?  The" HGA" or "soul" in his description appears to symbolize that which is unattainable and ineffable and us striving to this irrational non existent thing leads to KAC/TW.

Where does he say that this is unattainable or ineffable? As I read it, he's saying the exact opposite. That, by absenting her bodily, mental, and astral consciousnesses, the Adept will be able to attain realisation of her Holy Guardian Angel. That perception of the Soul has only been unattainable because of her preoccupation with those consciousnesses but, once they're set aside, she will attain realisation of it.

No?


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Los
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"Tao" wrote:
As I read it, he's saying the exact opposite. That, by absenting her bodily, mental, and astral consciousnesses, the Adept will be able to attain realisation of her Holy Guardian Angel. That perception of the Soul has only been unattainable because of her preoccupation with those consciousnesses but, once they're set aside, she will attain realisation of it.

For what it's worth, this is a correct reading of Crowley's text. According to him, the purpose of the ritual is to keep busy the bodily, mental, and astral consciousnesses of the magician so that the magician can finally behold the Soul, which those kinds of consciousness had prevented the magician from perceiving.

This is the essence of the Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel.


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William Thirteen
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just so you hear it from the horse's mouth david, i wasn't calling you a weasel (i don't know enough about weasels to make that assertion). the link i provided to the wikipedia article on "weasel words" was meant to indicate how the use of certain terms can weaken a seemingly straightforward statement, changing it into something unclear, amorphous, and ultimately meaningless. As you yourself noted, this is one of the great difficulties of discussing this field - the terminology is indeed slippery. The Magus is followed by the Ape of Thoth…

and i can assure you i have a spine - the existence of which i am reminded each morning as i clamber stiffly out of bed…


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Anonymous
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"Tao" wrote:
"david" wrote:
This is the trouble with spiritual science and using terms which the confused can easily put into interchangeable terms.  "Soul"?  The" HGA" or "soul" in his description appears to symbolize that which is unattainable and ineffable and us striving to this irrational non existent thing leads to KAC/TW.

Where does he say that this is unattainable or ineffable? As I read it, he's saying the exact opposite. That, by absenting her bodily, mental, and astral consciousnesses, the Adept will be able to attain realisation of her Holy Guardian Angel. That perception of the Soul has only been unattainable because of her preoccupation with those consciousnesses but, once they're set aside, she will attain realisation of it.

No?

What about Daath?  The HGA, if it comes from beyond Tipareth isn't "there " for the conscious mind to grasp as it were  so there's an element of ineffability within the process as it were.  That's how I understand it.  By invoking something that isn't there we rebuke the great enemy the mind.  No? You think I've got this wrong? Yes? No?


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Anonymous
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"WilliamThirteen" wrote:
just so you hear it from the horse's mouth david, i wasn't calling you a weasel (i don't know enough about weasels to make that assertion). the link i provided to the wikipedia article on "weasel words" was meant to indicate how the use of certain terms can weaken a seemingly straightforward statement, changing it into something unclear, amorphous, and ultimately meaningless. As you yourself noted, this is one of the great difficulties of discussing this field - the terminology is indeed slippery. The Magus is followed by the Ape of Thoth…

and i can assure you i have a spine - the existence of which i am reminded each morning as i clamber stiffly out of bed…

I like harmony.


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Anonymous
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"Tao" wrote:
"david" wrote:
This is the trouble with spiritual science and using terms which the confused can easily put into interchangeable terms.  "Soul"?  The" HGA" or "soul" in his description appears to symbolize that which is unattainable and ineffable and us striving to this irrational non existent thing leads to KAC/TW.

Where does he say that this is unattainable or ineffable? As I read it, he's saying the exact opposite. That, by absenting her bodily, mental, and astral consciousnesses, the Adept will be able to attain realisation of her Holy Guardian Angel. That perception of the Soul has only been unattainable because of her preoccupation with those consciousnesses but, once they're set aside, she will attain realisation of it.

No?

What you are saying sounds right to me yes in terms od "a transcendental self" observing our pure consciousness.  Does that make sense?


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Anonymous
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"Los" wrote:
slowly fade. Gradually, one can learn how t. But again, it's not the trance that's significant: it's what the trance allows one to do, which is to perceive and carry out the True Will.

...Which I would describe as "self-strengthening" or "strengthening" to the individual is a better way of putting it.


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Tao
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"david" wrote:
What about Daath?  The HGA, if it comes from beyond Tipareth isn't "there " for the conscious mind to grasp as it were  so there's an element of ineffability within the process as it were.  That's how I understand it.  By invoking something that isn't there we rebuke the great enemy the mind.  No? You think I've got this wrong? Yes? No?

I'd say yes, that pretty much encapsulates it. By invoking something that isn't there, you rebuke the mind. Once the mind's been rebuked enough, the bodily, mental, and astral consciousnesses slink off to the dog house and leave you to your business. And then, once they're gone, you're free to perceive the HGA... which is now "there".

But... the important part of this entire digression is what you said prior to that:

"david" wrote:
This is the trouble with spiritual science and using terms which the confused can easily put into interchangeable terms.  "Soul"?  The" HGA" or "soul" in his description appears to symbolize that which is unattainable and ineffable and us striving to this irrational non existent thing leads to KAC/TW.

As has been shown, we all have different meanings attached to these different terms, not necessarily because they're interchangeable, but because they're differently used in different systems. Los's summary of this a day or so ago summed it up well. I don't particularly agree with his or your definition of K&CHGA but, within his or your system, we can say that Los is an Adept because he has experienced the Beatific Vision as he understands it. Whether or not that translates outside of his understanding to someone else's depends on the someone else. Since he assures us that we'll know it when we experience it, I guess we'll just... um... know someday.

With regards to 8=3 (and I'm assuming we're discussing A.'.A.'. here and not Golden Dawn or any other system of attainment that uses the 8=3 label), the only concrete definition we have is that a Magister Templi has taken the oath of the 8=3 and that she tends to her garden of disciples (there are other aspects but none that could be observed by an other). So, there's your answer.

Given what I've been able to dig up on the guy since his name appeared here, Hessle does not appear to have a Magus above him who witnessed his oath and signed the paper. Nor does he maintain a visible garden of disciples. He might, somewhere out in the real world, but as there's no evidence of that fact to hand, I'd have to rule against him. (Also leaning against him is the fact that he seems to have disappeared off the face of the earth. A "terrific penalty", perhaps?  😮 )

Finally, with regards to the "any person soever" clause, I have to give that one to Los as well:

"Los" wrote:
Since anyone can claim the grade at any time, this either makes the grade completely meaningless or it suggests that there's more going on than at first appears. Could it possibly be that many, if not most people who discuss the grade do not understand what it means?

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Michael Staley
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"david" wrote:
"Los" wrote:
slowly fade. Gradually, one can learn how t. But again, it's not the trance that's significant: it's what the trance allows one to do, which is to perceive and carry out the True Will.

...Which I would describe as "self-strengthening" or "strengthening" to the individual is a better way of putting it.

So what is this "self" that is being strengthened?

If it's the personality, the ego, the day-to-day self that is developed throughout upbringing, then that's going to get in the way.

Or do you think that the HGA signifies some ultimate self, the final identity? Personally I think it's just another mask that in turn falls away, a bit like a Russian doll within a Russian doll within a Russian doll and so on ad infinitum.


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Shiva
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"Tao" wrote:
Given what I've been able to dig up on the guy since his name appeared here, Hessle does not appear to have a Magus above him who witnessed his oath and signed the paper.

Neither did V.V.V.V.V..  So we can't hold that against him.

Nor does he maintain a visible garden of disciples.

Now we don't know that at all. In fact, when he shows up, others often come along to agree with him or back him up.
Note: Nothing is usually said about a "visible" garden. It's simply stated "his (her) garden of disciples."

... he seems to have disappeared off the face of the earth.

When he shows up is a carefully selected phrase. Erwin has a tendency to drop in (to LAShTAL) from time to time, to exchange concepts, insults and pontifications for a few posts, and then to disappear again for a long, long time. When he's in attendance, the fur usually flies in the four directions ... or is it the eight sides of the octagon?


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Anonymous
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"Michael Staley" wrote:
[So what is this "self" that is being strengthened?

Good question and one that Buddha asked the Hindu establishment. I am told that nothing can reach beyond Nuit and Nuit is not to be talked about as it is continuous.  We know what we're not and that was mentioned in the Samekh quote where we're not our physical or mental activity nor are we astral (desire) images.

The Adept will be free to concentrate his deepest self, that part of him which unconsciously orders his true Will, upon the realization of his Holy Guardian Angel. The absence of his bodily, mental and astral consciousness is indeed cardinal to success, for it is their usurpation of his attention which has made him deaf to his Soul, and his preoccupation with their affairs that has prevented him from perceiving that Soul"

That implies that we are all "pure" consciousness which may attach itself to but is not those aforementioned elements  bodily, mental and astral.    Pratyahara is watching thoughts drift by but what is doing the watching?  Us "the self" but  that "self" sort of knows that there is some other "no self" silently watching it.  Cabbalists apparently call this Yechida which incorporates the Chiah and Neshamah and I'm told that Neshamah translates as "the deep silent self" 

Crowley appears to address this as well as the potentially different confusing cultural associations on pp. 159-60 of THE EQUINOX No. 1:

Lytton calls him Adonai in ‘Zanoni,’ and I often use this name in the notebooks.

Abramelin calls him Holy Guardian Angel. I adopt this:

1. Because Abramelin’s system is so simple and effective

2. Because since all theories of the universe are absurd it is better to talk in the language of one which is patently absurd, so as to mortify the metaphysical man.

3. Because a child can understand it.

Theosophists call him the Higher Self, Silent Watcher, or Great Master.

The Golden Dawn calls him the Genius.

Gnostics say the Logos.

Egyptians say Asar Un-nefer.

Zoroaster talks about uniting all these sym-bols into the form of a Lion – see Chaldean Oracles.

Anna Kingsford calls him Adonai (Clothed with the Sun). Buddhists call him Adi-Buddha – (says H.P.B.)

The Bhagavad-Gita calls him Vishnu (chapter xi.).

The Yi King calls him “The Great Person.”

The Qabalah calls him Jechidah.

We also get metaphysical analyses of His nature, deeper and deeper according to the subtlety of the writer; for this vision – it is all one same phenomenon, variously coloured by our varying Ruachs – is, I believe, the first and the last of all Spiritual Experience. For though He is attributed to Malkuth, and the Door of the Path of His overshadowing, He is also in Kether (Kether is in Malkuth and Malkuth in Kether – “as above, so beneath”), and the End of the “Path of the Wise” is identity with Him.

So that while he is the Holy Guardian Angel, He is also Hua and the Tao.

For since Intra Nobis Regnum deI all things are in Ourself, and all Spiritual Experience is a more or less complete Revelation of Him.

Yet it is only in the Middle Pillar that His manifestation is in any way perfect.

The Augoeides invocation is the whole thing. Only it is so difficult; one goes along through all the fifty gates of Binah at once, more or less illuminated, more or less deluded. But the First and the Last is this Augoeides Invocation.
Yechida Chia Neshamah
The Equinox

"Michael Staley" wrote:
[So what is this "self" that is being strengthened?
Or do you think that the HGA signifies some ultimate self, the final identity? Personally I think it's just another mask that in turn falls away, a bit like a Russian doll within a Russian doll within a Russian doll and so on ad infinitum.

ad infinitum infinitesimal convergence meeting the movement of infinite space? 

I understand why a particular school of Buddhism just discarded all doctrinal intellectualization, books and scriptures to just do direct practice.


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Anonymous
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"Shiva" wrote:

Nor does he maintain a visible garden of disciples.

Now we don't know that at all. In fact, when he shows up, others often come along to agree with him or back him up.
Note: Nothing is usually said about a "visible" garden. It's simply stated "his (her) garden of disciples."

Good point Shiva. 


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Los
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"Los" wrote:
"Tao" wrote:
As I read it, he's saying the exact opposite. That, by absenting her bodily, mental, and astral consciousnesses, the Adept will be able to attain realisation of her Holy Guardian Angel. That perception of the Soul has only been unattainable because of her preoccupation with those consciousnesses but, once they're set aside, she will attain realisation of it.

For what it's worth, this is a correct reading of Crowley's text. According to him, the purpose of the ritual is to keep busy the bodily, mental, and astral consciousnesses of the magician so that the magician can finally behold the Soul, which those kinds of consciousness had prevented the magician from perceiving.

This is the essence of the Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel.

"Many things I beheld mediate and immediate; but, beholding them no more, I beheld Thee." -- Liber LXV, III:32

"But I have called unto Thee, and I have journeyed unto Thee, and it availed me not.
I waited patiently, and Thou wast with me from the beginning.
This now I know, O my beloved, and we are stretched at our ease among the vines.
But these thy prophets; they must cry aloud and scourge themselves; they must cross trackless wastes and unfathomed oceans; to await Thee is the end, not the beginning." --Liber LXV, II:59-62


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Anonymous
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"Los" wrote:

A google search turns up the following useful definition: "the mental and moral qualities distinctive to an individual." In the passage from Magick in Theory and Practice that I'm quoting from, Crowley goes on immediately to say that a mind made sufficiently elastic is better equipped to tackle problems.

I understand this now about trances and character.  Initially I thought it was BS but as I was walking around for an hour yesterday in a ghetto area in a bitter cold wind it made perfect sense.


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k4n3
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Apologies for replying so late, but had a busy week at work.

"Los" wrote:
"k4n3" wrote:
I think there is no guaranteed way to check if someone is 8=3, but at least what we can do, when someone claims to be a Magister as understood in the A.'.A.'. system, is to demand some kind of proof, preferably in a form of an account so we can judge it for ourselves.

How can you say, in the same sentence, that there's no "guaranteed way to check" the claim but that you would still "demand proof"? What's the point of demanding proof if there's no way to "check" the proof?

Even that point aside, let's say that someone gives you an "account." How exactly do you intend to "judge" it? See whether it conforms to your prejudices about what the experience ought to be like?

This whole issue returns again and again to the question of what people understand the terms to mean -- and answering those questions says more about the answerer than about anyone claiming 8=3.

My statement simply means that the fact of someone claiming 8=3 is just completely irrelevant, when the claimant does not try to support it, just wants others to take it on faith.
It's rather a waste of time to focus on figuring it out when we don't have enough data, it's just more convinient to just move on and focus on something more imporant and productive.

As for the proof, a simple account of the experience would be welcome, but usually there is none or it is some trite nonsense like for example McGrady's poems that are said to be his account or a 7=4 thesis, IIRC.

The Abyss experience is said to have a couple of common points, like for example: a siren (woman/man who initiates the experience - Kirke, Kundry, Mary Magdalene etc.) and Choronzon (Poliphemus, Klingsor, Satan etc.).

There is much more to it, and because the experience takes place on all planes of consciousness, transcends the reason, it is so hard to relate it in the language of reason for others who did not experience it.

Again, this supposes that you have an "idea [of] what's this experience is about." Based on what? How would you distinguish a "real" account from "trite nonsense"?

As I said there is no certain way to distnguish a real account from a fake one, but if you follow simple reason and logic you can with certain dose of probability find ones which are verly unlikely to be true.
There is also another gauge to measure the level of bullshit coming from the so called magisters, which is simply their works (so called "fruit"). Most of the time there is nothing new, special  and revealing ("new school of thought") about their works, it's usually rehashing of what's already has been said much better by Crowley or others.

Would they? If it's not actually possible to cross the Abyss intentionally, then whatever they have to say would probably not be very helpful to anyone.

Agree on the non-intentional part, but disagree on the helpfulness of an account.

It seems to be true that the Abyss is entered unintentionally (if we speak of a "true" 7=4) since it is reached by means of a momentum generated/gathered by the Adept on his way/path.  It is also said that such Adept does not realize at first what is going on to him, even though there are clues to what is going on on different levels of consicousness. By levels of consciousness I mean four main worlds of qabbalists (Assiah, Yetzirah, Briah and Atziluth). The Abyss which a 7=4 "goes thru" is the abyss of Atziluth (the Archetypal World) which is bound to have its reflections, as it were, in all of the other Worlds or levels of consciousness.

As for the helpfulness of the account, I believe it is very important to provide assistance for those who might follow (in the form of an account of the very experience), since as mentioned before, the Abyss experience has certain common points, even if details will differ for each Adept.

Is that most likely? One might equally argue that a Master of the Temple has no need to convince others and simply gets on with the work of watering the garden.

I can agree that Masters have no need to convince anyone (by reason of simple "Success is thy proof: argue not; convert not; talk not over much!") since the only "person" for which his/her experience is important is he/she himself/herself.
But it's worth to remember that as we "commoners" differ from each other, then Masters are Individuals who also differ from each other, and some of them might have their purpose in claiming publicly such grade and some not.


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Los
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"k4n3" wrote:
Apologies for replying so late, but had a busy week at work.

No problem. Take your time in replying.

My statement simply means that the fact of someone claiming 8=3 is just completely irrelevant, when the claimant does not try to support it, just wants others to take it on faith.
It's rather a waste of time to focus on figuring it out when we don't have enough data

I'd go a step further: the claim is completely irrelevant also when the claimant does try to support it, and it's pretty much always a waste of time to try to figure it out because there's never enough data available to other people.

I don't have any problem with people claiming grades or anything like that, but I think I'd be awfully suspicious of a supposed "Master" who actively tries to convince others that the claim is "valid." Who cares?

As for the proof, a simple account of the experience would be welcome, but usually there is none or it is some trite nonsense

You're implying that an account could "prove" the claim, but that the account would have to be something other than what you're calling "trite nonsense."

I dispute your implication. I'm not sure how you intend to distinguish accounts that don't prove the claim from accounts that do, and I suspect that your criteria would be terribly arbitrary.

The Abyss experience is said to have a couple of common points

Here we are again: "is said to have." Said by whom?

We continually run up against the problem of how we're defining these terms (and that the specifics of the 8=3 label were basically invented by Crowley).

There is also another gauge to measure the level of bullshit coming from the so called magisters, which is simply their works (so called "fruit"). Most of the time there is nothing new, special  and revealing ("new school of thought") about their works, it's usually rehashing of what's already has been said much better by Crowley or others.

Well, now you're on more of the right track. I'd say that what a person says is the only reliable indicator of skill of any kind (though I'd still dispute that it gives us insight into their "grade" or "attainment").

Think about it: how do you tell that someone is skilled in any area? One indicator is how well they can explain their subject.

Someone who thinks that they have had a lot of "magical and mystical experience" but who is completely and totally incapable of having an intelligent conversation on those subjects does not appear very "adept" in those subjects at all. He may have lots of "experience," but it's evidently not the kind of experience that's been useful to him in any way.

The Abyss which a 7=4 "goes thru" is the abyss of Atziluth (the Archetypal World) which is bound to have its reflections, as it were, in all of the other Worlds or levels of consciousness.

If you say so.

As for the helpfulness of the account, I believe it is very important to provide assistance for those who might follow (in the form of an account of the very experience), since as mentioned before, the Abyss experience has certain common points, even if details will differ for each Adept.

But if you agree that crossing doesn't happen intentionally, then what sort of "assistance" would someone else's account provide? Certainly, it wouldn't provide any assistance in actually crossing. Maybe you're saying that such accounts could prove useful to someone in getting used to the new perspective they're discovering? Or in giving them a label on which to hang their new perspective?


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Anonymous
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Liber Aleph has been described as an epistle.  I think the documentation of the applied wisdom therein is an illustration of how we would recognize a Master. 


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Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 4119
 
"Los" wrote:
Think about it: how do you tell that someone is skilled in any area? One indicator is how well they can explain their subject.

That is an appropriate consideration where the skill is, for instance, an intellectual one. But if I want to assess the skill of an artist, a craftsman, a plumber, a poet, etc., I'm more interested in how they do the work than I am in "how well they can edxplain their subject".

"Los" wrote:
Someone who thinks that they have had a lot of "magical and mystical experience" but who is completely and totally incapable of having an intelligent conversation on those subjects does not appear very "adept" in those subjects at all. He may have lots of "experience," but it's evidently not the kind of experience that's been useful to him in any way.

Again you reveal not only your intellectual bias but your addiction to sweeping generalisations. You judge the worth of this hypothetical character's "mystical and magical experience" on the basis that he or she is in your view "completely and totally incapable of having an intelligent conversation on those subjects". Unless you've been privy to every conversation on "those subjects" in which he or she has engaged, you cannot possibly know this. It might simply be that, on the basis of your posts over many years, he or she does not consider you worth engaging with.


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Los
 Los
(@los)
Member
Joined: 12 years ago
Posts: 2195
 
"Michael Staley" wrote:
But if I want to assess the skill of an artist, a craftsman, a plumber, a poet, etc., I'm more interested in how they do the work than I am in "how well they can edxplain their subject".

Well, of course: those are subjects where the work can be more or less objectively assessed by other people. But the work of the subject we're discussing -- spiritual attainment -- cannot be assessed in the same way by others.

If a plumber doesn't actually have the skill to fix a broken toilet, his lack of skill is going to be really obvious because the toilet will not start working again after he tries to fix it. But if a person claims to have discovered his True Will, for example, but hasn't actually done so, then there are no necessary signs that will reveal that to others. He could go on fooling even himself for many years, if not for his whole life.

That's why I said that one indicator would be how well he can explain the subject. After all, a plumber who has the appropriate skill probably *would* be able to tell others *how* he does it and to tell others what the telltale signs of success are. A so-called "adept" who has no ability to discuss his subject intelligently...and who, in fact, runs away from conversations on his subject...is someone who displays no signs of "mastery" of any kind.

You judge the worth of this hypothetical character's "mystical and magical experience" on the basis that he or she is in your view "completely and totally incapable of having an intelligent conversation on those subjects". Unless you've been privy to every conversation on "those subjects" in which he or she has engaged, you cannot possibly know this.

Once again, I'm not claiming any kind of absolute knowledge. I can only form tentative conclusions based on the information available to me. Let's say we've got a guy who talks about how much "experience" he has but -- time and time again -- he refuses to have conversations with anyone on the subject and actively discourages critical conversations on the subject. Let's go further. Let's say -- hypothetically, of course -- that the few times this character does open his mouth, he reveals that his ideas are painfully lacking even internal consistency and that at least one of his ideas precisely reverses Aleister Crowley's ideas about what the True Will is.

I can't make any kind of absolute pronouncements -- because nobody can make absolute pronouncements about anything -- but I can judge, based on the evidence I have available to me, that whatever "experience" this hypothetical guy has had doesn't seem to be the kind of "experience" that's done much of anything for him. It certainly hasn't enabled him to appear like he knows what he's talking about.


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Shiva
(@shiva)
Not a Rajah
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 5703
 
"Los" wrote:
But if a person claims to have discovered his True Will, for example, but hasn't actually done so, then there are no necessary signs that will reveal that to others.

"Success is your [only] proof!"


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Jamie J Barter
(@jamiejbarter)
Member
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 1805
 

I was just thinking how ironic this thread has now become, in light of Los's subsequent claim recently to be an 8=3 himself, and also wondered who on earth might have started it!

And david/ dom, didn't you once even also begin another thread here "Joe Schmoe is your Master" as OP? The ---ahem, 'synchronicity' is truly exquisite!

N Joy


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dom
 dom
(@dom)
Member
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 2862
 

Ah yes Joe Schmoe is your Master

No comment.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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