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ignant666
(@ignant666)
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03/03/2020 10:54 pm  

I'm sure some of these topics have been discussed before, but not recently; links to older discussions appreciated.

I used to throw the I Ching very often when younger, but have not done so in ages, but am thinking it might be useful to do again. When i did so, it was always with reference to the Wilhelm-Baynes Bollingen translation, and the three-coin method. There is a very interesting wikipedia article about the varying odds of the various methods that may appeal to some.

I used to have a small white booklet of the AC version, but that seems to have vanished. He advises a very eccentric six-coin throw, with five identical coins, and one different coin. The positions of the lines are determined by where the coins fall, with the different coin being the moving line. This always gives one and only one moving line, unlike any other system.

I should probably comment that i don't believe in fate or "divination" per se, but do appreciate the I Ching as a "synchronicity condenser" (a phrase i believe i've stolen from Robert Anton Wilson?), and/or source of random insight, a la Brian Eno's "Oblique Strategies" cards, which i've used in my music projects.

So:

1) Does anyone recommend anything besides the Wilhelm-Baynes Bollingen translation, and, if so, why?

2) Does anyone know where AC got the six-coin method?

3) AC, AFAIK, spoke little Chinese, beyond what any foreigner picks up in a country to ask for the toilets, etc.- what is the basis of his purported "translation"?

 


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thearthuremerson
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03/03/2020 11:15 pm  

Ignant,

I can't resist chiming in to make the recommendation that you get your hands on Richard John Lynn's translation of the I Ching as soon as possible. It not only contains probably the best extent translation of the ancient oracle, it also contains Wang Bi's fascinating commentary.

Lynn is an incredible scholar and provides his readers with far more information in footnotes and appendices than they deserve. His scholarship really is second to none and his books are just a joy to behold. I highly recommend his translation of The Classic of the Way and Virtue (aka the Tao Te Ching) as well, if you have even the slightest interest. It contains Wang Bi's extremely influential commentary on that text, as well as a very interesting biography of that brilliant young man. 

As to your second question, I couldn't say. Your third, however, I can make an educated guess. I had always assumed that Crowley used Legge's translation and filtered it through his idiosyncratic occult lens. I assume Legge's would have been the only translation available to Crowley, but I could be wrong about that. 

Indeed, while typing the above I recalled William Fancourt's little essay on Crowley's Yijing on Biroco's website and it seems to corroborate my suggestion above. That site is a great resource for all things I Ching that isn't polluted by the insanity that often comes from what we'll just call "other corners". Link here: Yijing Dao.

Happy divining.

Best,

æ


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dom
 dom
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04/03/2020 12:06 am  

@ignant666

 

I used to throw the I Ching very often when younger, but have not done so in ages, but am thinking it might be useful to do again.   ...but....

 

I should probably comment that i don't believe in fate or "divination" per se, but do appreciate the I Ching as a "synchronicity condenser"

 

Why be ashamed of ESP?  Sounds like a typical bigoted scientist afraid to face the ridicule.   

 

This sounds like the return of harbinger-of-death Los.  For example on disembodied goblins ;he doesn't believe in e.g. disembodied goblins but he's gonna 'work with them' anyway because if one is inclined to drink coffee then it's time to drink coffee and occultism is just a hobby that one may be inclined to take up as entertainment. 


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Shiva
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04/03/2020 1:16 am  
Posted by: @ignant666

He advises a very eccentric six-coin throw, with five identical coins, and one different coin.

You are describing the Agape Lodge method, which I wrote and published with the Yi King. Only a few copies were sold, but one of those was dismantled and copied onto printing plates. That edition I have seen many times. People always assume that A.C. wrote the text on how to do it. He didn't. Does this make me the true one who follows? Or maybe the true reincarnation of AC? Of course it does.

My Introduction follows a quote by Therion, but the Intro was never attributed (in print) to him, and my sig was never inserted, so I guess everyone just assumed it was AC rattling off in Bible-speak lingo. Yes, I used Bible-speak then. Today I would shun such stuff. My utterance started with this page ...

image

Free copy to you, and all. Terrible cropping of pages, but it's all there. Solar Lodge's imprint. My Intro, Therion's complete text. Where? Here ...

This is a scan of the Yi King, the publication of which, and the typesetting ordeal of which, are described in Inside Solar Lodge.

Posted by: @ignant666

1) Does anyone recommend anything besides the Wilhelm-Baynes Bollingen translation, and, if so, why?

Wilhelm is really good, but tedious. AC's Yi King is too brief to grasp the image, and he converted many Oriental archetypes into Thelema-speak, so the original concept has been micro-reduced and not recognizable.. There are hundred's of versions out there ... everyone putting their own spin (like AC) on their interpretation. I've read many of them, used a few for divine purposes (where Thoth adjusts the throws to bring insight), and usually perused every version I've ever seen in any bookstore.

Then I'd return to Wilhelm (No blame. No loss). Then I came across Master Ni's book. Fancy title. I'll look it up in a minute. Master Ni was father to Mao-Shing Ni who was my student in Oriental Medical School. We also sat in some classes, as students, together. We sat together in the waiting room of the State Exam that made us licensed primary-care health practitioners. He went on to form his own school, and often appears on Dr Oz to explain Oriental Medicine.

Hid dad, Master Ni, was a 35th generation Taoist Priest. He translated the I Ching, and somebody (probably his sons) polished the English. I paid big buck to have my copy bound in leather. The original binding was substandard (like old Equinoxes), but the paper didn't seem to disintegrate with age. It got lost/stolen on the move to New Mexico, 15 years ago. If the initiate does not burn his books, they will be taken away.

If you or me, or any otherguess ass, wants a superior I Ching, I say this outshines them all. Hey, it's an aged Taoist priest telling the story, not some western translator.

(Look up tine) ...

 

41E6KN3GX2L. SX290 BO1,204,203,200

I Ching The Book of Changes: And the Unchanging Truth, Revised Edition Hardcover – January 1, 1983

 

https://www.amazon.com/Ching-Book-Changes-Unchanging-Revised/dp/0937064815

 


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ignant666
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04/03/2020 2:00 am  

The small white booklet i mentioned was definitely from your typesetting job, probably bootlegged by Magickal Childe where i bought it. And fascinating, but unsurprising, to learn you are the author of the intro.

So where did this "Agape Lodge" method come from? AC?

I am not, david, "ashamed of ESP", i just don't think it is real. My biggest problem with Los was always with his claim that AC didn't believe in spacemen and goblins- as i said more than once, Los is at more or less where i was in my early 20s as a hyper-materialist. 

Not any more, but i still am not a woo-woo man.

As to me being afraid all the other scientists would laugh and point: A) they mostly did anyway at me being interested in such topics at all; B) it may surprise you to know that my rep in my work was that of an iconoclast who argued with everyone. Never was too bothered about that "laughter of folk folly" stuff.


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Shiva
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04/03/2020 4:25 am  
Posted by: @ignant666

The small white booklet i mentioned was definitely from your typesetting job, probably bootlegged by Magickal Childe where i bought it. And fascinating, but unsurprising, to learn you are the author of the intro.

Yes, there were several copy-past & print versions. The first one I saw was our exact book, but printed in, I think, South Africa, which mildly surprised me.

Posted by: @ignant666

So where did this "Agape Lodge" method come from? AC?

Original source unknown. Mildred Burlingame taught it to Jean and myself. There was no source or lineage mentioned. It's just the way they cut through the clutter at Agape.

image

 


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elitemachinery
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04/03/2020 6:02 am  
Posted by: @ignant666

1) Does anyone recommend anything besides the Wilhelm-Baynes Bollingen translation, and, if so, why?

I bought my first copy of Wilhelm Baynes at Weiser's Bookstore in the Village NYC in 1984. I may still have it.

Lately, i throw the iching online at:

iching.online

the website is annoying and opens many windows (probably trying to get more pageviews for their ads) but its quick and i dont have to throw pennies.

for interpretation i think James DeKorne's website is the best as it compares many different versions (including Wilhelm Baynes) and allows u to see the original intent behind the writings:

http://www.jamesdekorne.com/GBCh/GBCh.htm

I've used the I Ching far too much in my life and still do. I suppose it might be my chess mind but I took a liking to it quickly (64 squares in chess 64 hexagrams in I Ching) and quickly memorized most of the lines. But the I Ching is a poorn (poorn? a new word..sorry, Freudian slip) substitute for intuition and should not be overused.

When I do use coins to question the oracle I throw 2 coins and pick up the tail (if there is one) then throw the other 2 coins.

heads=solid line=3

tails=broken line=2

9=solid to broken changing line

8=broken fixed line

7=solid fixed line

6=broken to solid changing line

6 complete throws bottom to top forms the resulting hexagram.

I was told this is the best way to emulate the I Ching stalks system of divination and its percentage variables.

But lately I just cast online.

I used to own an app 10 yrs ago on my iphone when I had one and it was one where u could buy many different books and get answers from any one of them and compare...much like James DeKorne's site.... It became costly buying all the extra books for the app but the app was very good. Not sure the name or if it still exists. There are tons of crappy I Ching apps out these.

Unfortunately I do it all online these days but I find James DeKorne site the best if one has no physical books.

Posted by: @ignant666

I should probably comment that i don't believe in fate or "divination" per se, but do appreciate the I Ching as a "synchronicity condenser" (a phrase i believe i've stolen from Robert Anton Wilson?), and/or source of random insight, a la Brian Eno's "Oblique Strategies" cards, which i've used in my music projects.

I view the I Ching as a probability interpreter. Nothing set in stone. Often the correct choice is the more difficult path or I Ching result that has the "bad" misfortune lines. I like to use it to confirm a general direction or see if something is worth pursuing, but I often overuse it in overanalysis and the minutia of things.

Some people are superstitious and do not want to throw an I Ching on a matter for fear of jinxing a path or project. I tell people who think this way that "if you don't want to know the answer don't ask the question."

Nothing is 100% fated. The point is to see possibilities and navigate the pitfalls. For dealing with misfortune lines in a path that you must pursue I always follow the advice in the "image" section of each hexagram. If one follows the advice in the image I believe it can lesson any misfortune along the path.

Posted by: @shiva

You are describing the Agape Lodge method, which I wrote and published with the Yi King. Only a few copies were sold, but one of those was dismantled and copied onto printing plates. That edition I have seen many times. People always assume that A.C. wrote the text on how to do it. He didn't.

I never knew that. Thanks for the pdf Shiva. When is the new book coming?

Posted by: @shiva

Does this make me the true one who follows? Or maybe the true reincarnation of AC? Of course it does.

This is a relief. Thank God. You're much more qualified than I or any other, You have my full and complete endorsement.

SHIVA 2020

"A Clear Vision For All To See"

The AC in DC World Tour!

 

 

 

 


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Shiva
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04/03/2020 7:18 am  
Posted by: @elitemachinery

I've used the I Ching far too much in my life and still do

Me too, to the first (used). When my Ni disappeared 15 years ago, that was the end of it (and still do n't). I tried one of the online slot machines Yi sites. It was fine.

It really is an amazing "toy." I always got clear firm synchronization ... except when I really needed it. (Big, major decisions). Then it would often become ambiguous. This is the part of the journey where one is forced to rely on themselves.

Posted by: @elitemachinery

When is the new book coming?

"When it is done." - Michaelangelo

Posted by: @elitemachinery

This is a relief. Thank God. You're much more qualified than I or any other, You have my full and complete endorsement.

Thank you. I now submit my resignation. Back to you. 64 squares/hexes.

 


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Tiger
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04/03/2020 1:23 pm  

Due to the lack of intellectual impertinence; Amalantrah was able to communicate with Crowley. The Spiritual atmosphere penetrated the sanctuaries of his spirit and an aspect of his sentient experience that reached back to a life beyond present notions of time, and the philosophy of Lao Zi Resumed itself in his soul.

In passing onto other impressions of sentient experience; despite persistent efforts of mind to compel it to conform to preconceived notions; the simplicity and sublimity of the Dao De Jing revealed; opening the portals to spiritual attainment above the veils of temporal false hood.

MyWooWoo paraphrase from Equinox V no3


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APOSTATES
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04/03/2020 1:29 pm  

6 coins method is probably the six turtle bones sticks method.


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Jamie J Barter
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04/03/2020 1:37 pm  
Posted by: @elitemachinery

I've used the I Ching far too much in my life and still do.

Do you think A.C. "overused" the I.C. by consulting it daily?

Norma N Joy Conquest


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ignant666
(@ignant666)
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04/03/2020 1:50 pm  

What is the

Posted by: @nassah

six turtle bones sticks method

?

Not mentioned in the wikipedia article i linked to above, on methods, and the varying odds they generate. It does mention a method involving turtle shells, but not bones (or "turtle bones sticks", whatever those are), and there aren't six of anything involved.

Thanx to all for the responses, and keep 'em coming.


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APOSTATES
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04/03/2020 2:35 pm  

You are righ mister,  shell is the right word for that hard bone.


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Tiger
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04/03/2020 3:28 pm  

“ Mr Germer always cast the Yi before making what he considered an important decision. He told us that Crowley, from the time he started using the Yi, always cast a Hexagram for the day, and continued doing so for the rest of his life. He showed us the tortoise shell plaques Crowley had used, which had been willed to him, and which he used as well. Upon his death he desired that they be given to his widow,…...eventually, upon Germer’s death, the plaques were appropriated by Grady McMurtry with the sick help of James Wasserman, “
Equinox V no3 pg 275


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christibrany
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04/03/2020 3:55 pm  

I cast 3 coins and then read both the resultant hexagram and then the changed hexagram if there are any 'changing' lines. 

 

I use the Legge translation.

 

Personally speaking I don't think it has never lied to me.  Even for tough things.  But sometimes you go back to read it and you realise you interpreted it wrong.  Like if something is negative, you can realise it after the fact when you read the hexagram with more objectivity...


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ignant666
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04/03/2020 4:00 pm  

The thing about the Agape Lodge method, that is totally different to all other methods, is that it gives one and only one moving line, and 50/50 odds of every line being yin or yang, which other methods definitely don't.

The yarrow stalk method, and the four coin method that emulates it, give wildly different probabilities for the four possible lines, ranging from 1/16 for yin changing to yang, to 7/16 for unchanging yin.

The three coin method i was taught by some hippie is at least symmetrical, in that the odds of non-moving lines are higher than those for moving lines (also true of yarrow-stalk method), and the same for yin and yang (not true of yarrow-stalk method), and the odds of moving yin and moving yang are equal (ditto).

If the above is unclear, apologies, and read the wikipedia article i keep mentioning.

Ordered a copy of the Wilhelm Baynes and have been looking at reviews of the Lynn and Ni versions, and will try to get both via interlibrary loan to check them out.


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ignant666
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04/03/2020 5:33 pm  

A ridiculously trivial question: does anyone know a source of nice looking Chinese bronze coins with holes in them (square or round, i'm not picky) roughly the size of a US nickel, or UK 20 p coin? Amazon has zillions, but most are too big, and lots seem to be identical on both sides, or else they are too expensive.

In this connection, i would like to say that current world coinage mostly sucks- the coins have no weight to them, or weigh too much. The UK 20 p coin is the most satisfactory coin that i have three of in my "miscellaneous foreign change" place, all the current US coins are useless.


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Shiva
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04/03/2020 6:06 pm  
Posted by: @tiger

the plaques were appropriated by Grady McMurtry with the sick help of James Wasserman,

I am perplexed by the term "sick help." Maybe I should consult the Yi ?

Posted by: @christibrany

sometimes you go back to read it and you realise you interpreted it wrong

O yeah. There is always that consideration.

So, we have seen several formats for determining the hexagram and any moving line(s).: Yarrow stalks, coins, popsicle sticks, tongue depressors, endangered tortoise shells, and online gamin parlors ("Come in here and see the serpent devour its your tail").

The apparatus doesn't matter - anything will do, as long as it ends up with a hexagram and moving lines that you understand and can work with.

 


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jdes
 jdes
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04/03/2020 6:39 pm  

Just curious... does anyone know how AC arrived at/went about interpreting the I Ching?

In the diaries I've read he appears to interpret each line and doesn't appear to refer to moving lines and a second Hexagram.

This seems at odds with many of the modern I Ching 'versions' in which there is usually the instruction to read the first hexagram judgement and then interpret the moving lines (often with instructions on how to deal with multiple moving lines) before reading the second hexagram.


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Shiva
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04/03/2020 7:35 pm  
Posted by: @jdes

In the diaries I've read he appears to interpret each line and doesn't appear to refer to moving lines and a second Hexagram.

The Agape Lodge method, which probably had AC influence, gives one hexagram in one throw. There is one "moving line" - always. But it doesn't move. It merely indicates where one is in the hexagram at the moment of the throw. One is encouraged to read all lines, so as to provide context to the single line that one is. There is no moving to a second hexagram.

Posted by: @jdes

This seems at odds with many of the modern I Ching 'versions'

Oh, it's not really "at odds." It simply gives the cleanest shot at telling one where one is, and most often, what to do (or not do). It doesn't matter about the apparatus or the method of moving the lines, or not. What matters is that the picture comes clear for the diviner. But, yes, the "Thelemic" method(s) do not conform to the "standard" ancient methods.

The Agape method, as first presented to us, used six tongue depressors (wood sticks about 6" long, about 3/4" wide, and about 1/8" think. Such apparati are suitable for small children and people with really bad eyesight. The angels came to me and suggested ice cream/popsicle sticks, which are more reasonably sized. Everyone immediately got sis popsicle sticks, and they were happy. Frater Shem bypassed this crude approach and ordered 49 yarrow stalks, which he would use. I watched him many times, but never adopted that rather complex method. The six sticks were much easier and gave just as good in the results department. I eventually moved to coins (six)(five silver and one copper)(chinese coins are often recommended, but that's just cultural superstition. It will probably become the basis for accusations of cultural bias or hate crimes any day now.

image

 

image

 

image

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Jamie J Barter
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04/03/2020 7:59 pm  
Posted by: @tiger
Posted by: @tiger

the plaques were appropriated by Grady McMurtry with the sick help of James Wasserman,

I am perplexed by the term "sick help." Maybe I should consult the Yi ?

I think it was a derogatory reference to Wasserman "changing sides" and backing the Grady gee-gee rather than the Motta donkey, as it were.

I remember reading that he then proceeded to lose the sticks in the course of some beach party he frequented.  Very responsible of him wasn't it - I don't think...

N Joy


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Shiva
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04/03/2020 8:27 pm  
Posted by: @jamiejbarter

the Grady gee-gee

I am perplexed by the term "gee-gee." Is this a reference to the strange "Gs" in ALGMOR? Does in mean "Great Grady?"c Maybe I should consult the Yi ?

image

 

image

 

image

 

image

 

image

 


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ignant666
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04/03/2020 9:57 pm  

"Gee-gee" is UKish for "racehorse".


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The HGA of a Duck
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04/03/2020 10:21 pm  
Posted by: @elitemachinery

Lately, i throw the iching online at:

iching.online

the website is annoying and opens many windows (probably trying to get more pageviews for their ads)

As an alternative, you could use Random.org. It generates random numbers from "atmospheric noise", which is interesting to "numerological nerds" like myself. The easiest way would be to tell it just generate 1 number between 1 and 64 (its pretty easy to use, and no ads!):

https://www.random.org/integers/

 

I'm guessing those I Ching sites just use a "pseudo-random" generator for the numbers, so this "atmospheric noise" could make it more...psychic, if you believe in that sort of thing.

 

And an intro to all the technical stuff for anyone who likes that sort of thing:

https://www.random.org/randomness/


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ignant666
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04/03/2020 10:33 pm  

No- first of all a random number between 1 and 64 would generate only a hexagram and no moving lines.

You need a method that generates 4 possible results (yin, yang, old [moving] yin, old yang), with unequal odds of the four possible results (that vary among methods), and higher odds of young than old line forms.

 


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The HGA of a Duck
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04/03/2020 10:42 pm  

It was just a suggestion for a quick way to see how that site works. It allows for much more complex methods.


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threefold31
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04/03/2020 11:23 pm  
Posted by: @ignant666

 

1) Does anyone recommend anything besides the Wilhelm-Baynes Bollingen translation, and, if so, why?

 

 

Dwtw

I have found that The Authentic I-Ching by Henry Wei is excellent when it comes to the line texts.

As for divination methods, Larry Schoenholtz came up with the Sixteen System, which uses 16 of any similar object, like marbles, in ratios of 1-3-5-7 of each color to replicate the yarrow-stalk probabilities. You then just choose one randomly at a time, for six times, and then you have your hexagram. Making a moving line is not included.

 

Litlluw

RLG


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ignant666
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05/03/2020 9:00 pm  

I have further reviewed the wikipedia article, and realized that the three-coin method they describe, and the one some hippie taught me in the early '70s, are different.

The way i learned it was: heads are yang, tails are yin. So 3 heads = old (moving) yang, 3 tails = old (moving) yin. This part is the same as the wikipedia three-coin method.

Where they differ is this: I learned 2 heads, 1 tail = young (non-moving) yang, 2 tails, 1 head = young (non-moving) yin.

The wikipedia article wants us to count every head as 3, and every tail as two, and says

  • 6 (3 tails) = old yin (same as hippie method),
  • 7 (2 tails, 1 heads) = young yang (not young yin),
  • 8 (2 heads, 1 tails) = young yin (not young yang),
  • 9 (3 heads) = old yang (same as hippie method).

This makes both yin results even numbers, and both yang results odd numbers, which may matter in Chinese numerology. Otherwise i cannot see how this makes any sense at all. The hippie method does not involve any numbers (so can't be "wrong" in any numerological sense) and is easier to remember.

A rare instance where i will go with the hippies unless someone can explain why the other way makes more sense. Please do not explain to me the desirability of systems that replicate the silly odds of the yarrow-stalk system.

I found some nice-looking 20 mm feng shui coins on amazon to satisfy my neo-colonialist cultural appropriation needs.


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djedi
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06/03/2020 1:48 am  

If you'd like a laugh at someone else's expense, there's a very stupid book called the Yi Jing Apocrypha of Genghis Khan written by an unwell soul who changed his name to Warlock Asylum, and who claims to have been taught Japanese magic (not Onmyodo or Shugendo, some weird shit you've never heard of before because he made it up) by Ashida Kim, a white guy with a Japanese forename and Korean surname who spent his life pretending to be a ninja.

But maybe he has something lucid to say about I Ching in his book, and if he doesn't you can always report him to the Better Business Ninja Clan.


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hadgigegenraum
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06/03/2020 2:28 am  

@ignant666 and all others...

Per recommended translations of I Ching, I very much recommend Carol Anthony & Hanna Moog's I Ching: Oracle of the Cosmic Way 

Here is something from their website relative to the approach:

https://www.ichingoracle.com/about-1

ABOUT THE I CHING

THE I CHING ORACLE AS DEFINED BY ITSELF

The main function of an oracle is to speak. (The word oracle comes from the Latin verb orare “to speak.”) In certain ancient cultures people devised methods that allowed them to put questions to the Cosmos, and to receive an answer through a priest or priestess.

The I Ching is the only oracle that has existed in a written form for more than three thousand years. The fact that it can be consulted as a book has unfortunately made people forget that the Cosmos has a voice that can speak directly to any person who sincerely seeks an answer to a question that truly matters. Among such questions are those that concern the following:

·     getting to know oneself

·     learning about the harmonious Cosmos and its Ways

·     bringing ourselves back into harmony with the Cosmos by learning about the human place in it

·     participating in the countless possibilities of living a life that fulfills us

·     accessing Cosmic help for our deepest needs. Those include the renewal of our life force, healing our minds and bodies, self-understanding, and the expression of our unique talents and gifts.

Soon after Carol came to the I Ching, in 1972, she was shown a method of meditating, that is defined in Hexagram 52, Keeping Still. (It is now called “Meditating”). This method allows the voice that replies through the oracle, called “the Sage,“ to make itself clear. Carol has described her experiences in a video posted on YouTube. It is part of a series of videos under the title I Ching. My Key Learning Experiences. See Part 4. The Identity of the Sage.

Years later, Carol was also shown a short method that allowed her to directly ask the Sage questions by tossing three coins. See Article 3: The New Method to Clarify the I Ching’s Message.

When Hanna joined Carol in 1998, they used this method to allow the Sage to clarify and correct the texts of the 64 hexagrams of the I Ching. The result was a new version of the I Ching called, I Ching, the Oracle of the Cosmic Way. Carol has described their process in Article 5. How Our New Version of the I Ching Was Written.

 


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elitemachinery
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06/03/2020 2:28 pm  
Posted by: @ignant666

Please do not explain to me the desirability of systems that replicate the silly odds of the yarrow-stalk system.

Any system that attempts to closely follow the original intention of the oracle casting, as long as it's consistent, will work fine.

I like the idea of using Popsicle sticks and painting each side broken or solid or solid changing or broken changing...put all the sticks in a cup and pick one out each time...but put enough sticks in the cup to emulate the odds that each result should pop up.

I think I like the Popsicle stick idea because it gives an instant visual of the trigrams and hexagrams as they are being formed.

Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

Soon after Carol came to the I Ching, in 1972, she was shown a method of meditating, that is defined in Hexagram 52, Keeping Still. (It is now called “Meditating”). This method allows the voice that replies through the oracle, called “the Sage,“ to make itself clear. Carol has described her experiences in a video posted on YouTube. It is part of a series of videos under the title I Ching. My Key Learning Experiences.

The I Ching can be a real teacher at times. I had an experience with Hexagram 52 in summer of 1991.

I was 26 and very sober and working with my truck and meditation and working at DOME Meditation house. My Uncle who I also assisted was acting in Reservoir Dogs Tarantino's first movie and he was a complete stressed out angry basket case.

At the end of the first week of filming I got home from working and had loads of messages about Larry being drunk and violent and that people were worried about him. I had an ominous feeling like he was trying to get himself killed. He had a very long and very violent history (decades long) and often ended up in jail when he drank. He was 72 years old.

I already had some experience with him in this regard so it was with some caution that I proceeded.

example:

I took an I Ching

to go? 887887 52 fated

not go? 778788 54 fated

I had a key to his apartment as I worked for him and after checking the bars (who told me they kicked him out) I went to his place. He was passed out drunk on the floor.

52 (so far) seemed accurate.

He was completely wasted and would only come to long enough to guzzle whiskey from a large bottle and flail his arms as he lay on the floor mumbling incoherently. I sat down and waited just in case he needed an ambulance at some point. I was alert and sober.

So far 52 fated seemed like an accurate assessment.

Little did I know that he had a massive gun collection scattered in drawers and suitcases around his apartment. Why I was so naive I don't know. But at one point he staggered to his feet and looked to be heading to the bathroom.

After he walked past me toward the bathroom a voice spoke clearly into my right ear:

"He's got a gun, he's going to kill you."

This was not my intuition nor my own psychic nature speaking, or a hunch. This was very clearly the voice of another. This voice spoke very clearly and succinctly. I instantly knew it to be true.

I believe this voice to be my HGA.

I instantly popped up, checked the bathroom hallway to see him quickly unwrapping a huge Dirty Harry sized .357 Magnum from a towel in a drawer, and confirming this I quickly ran for the front door to exit the apartment. Within that split second it took me to get out the door he quickly spun around and fired 5 shots. All missed me thankfully but the neighbors (and police) weren't too happy about bullets flying past their heads at 2am.

Needless to say it was a long night that ended with my old man in jail (again) and of course he remembered nothing.

When the dust settled I I complained about the I Ching I had received to my guru/teacher Edwin and then had a closer look at hexagram 52.

I found that in the second half of Wilhelm Baynes version it has some deeper explanation and analysis of each hexagram. In it hexagram 52 talked of keeping still while an army passes you by and staying out of harms way. Something to that effect. I never would've thought that something so dramatic could happen with a 52 fated.

Above all trust the intuition and also common sense. The I Ching is a poor substitute for either and in this case gave a me lesson well learned.

I do recommend a deeper analysis of the second half of Wilhelm Baynes and also using alternate books and interpretations. But trust yourself first.

 

 

 


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Tiger
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07/03/2020 2:42 pm  

THE GNOSTIC BOOK OF CHANGES
http://www.jamesdekorne.com/GBCh/hex45.htm


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newneubergOuch2
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09/03/2020 9:12 am  

i recall jerry Cornelius wrote up something on the iching and how Crowley used to use it (via Grady eyes) and that the yarrow sticks were eventually with Grady then lost.

(I tried to find you a link but could not locate one).

 

found 

 

http://m.cornelius93.com/?url=http://www%2Ecornelius93%2Ecom%2Fcrowleysi%2Dchingsticks%2Ehtml#2795

at one point myself i was trying to collate all the references from crowleys iching readings to make a booklet but never completed it.


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newneubergOuch2
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09/03/2020 9:22 am  

My curiosity piqued i remember that there was a reprint of the Red Flame edition (5) and was about to purchase it.

 

but saw the cover and realized i already owned it. Lol.

 

https://concreat.org/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=12

 

236 pages in allPublished by Conjoined Creations

 

34C0A1E8 9E86 46D2 A0B4 95E713B7D5B9

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dom
 dom
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09/03/2020 10:51 am  

@all

Isn't the Tarot more directly comprehensive particularly the A.E.Waite pack which describe any and every possible situation in a glaringly obvious undeniable way?

 

@elitemachinery

Michael, great story.  I researched  Hexagram 52 and I found this; 

 

You will discover the germinating power within
in the silence where a thousand seeds
are becoming the landscape of spring.


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Shiva
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09/03/2020 6:09 pm  
Posted by: @dom

Isn't the Tarot more directly comprehensive particularly the A.E.Waite pack which describe any and every possible situation in a glaringly obvious undeniable way?

No.

Some people resonate and/or synchronize best with methods that differ from yours or mine.

Posted by: @dom

a thousand seeds
are becoming the landscape of spring.

Spring birds. They are here, they are here.

And 1 April 2020 e.v. is yet to come.


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APOSTATES
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09/03/2020 6:21 pm  

In Liber 777 (Apendix I. Hexagrams of Ji Ching) look for zodiacal attributions of hexagrams. You will find one after another (from Aries all 12 signs) the hexagrams forming (Little Heaven?) Zodiac. With trigrams on the cabalistic Tree of Life this is a direct connection of Taoism and Kabbala.  


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ignant666
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09/03/2020 6:43 pm  
Posted by: @shiva

Spring birds. They are here, they are here.

And 1 April 2020 e.v. is yet to come.

Got my seed and transplant orders in early this year. To slightly misquote the Song of Solomon, 2:12:

The flowers appear on the earth;

The time of singing has come,

And the voice of the cuckoo

Is heard in our land.


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The HGA of a Duck
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09/03/2020 7:13 pm  
Posted by: @dom

Isn't the Tarot more directly comprehensive

To me the I Ching is more "digital" and Tarot more "analogue". The I ching seems particularly "digital" with the lines (superficially seeming like binary but with the changing lines base 4 I guess) and the 64 being a power of 2. All this could make me think too much about "simulation theory" and make me paranoid that everything is just a simulation in a computer, with the I ching having direct access to the "bits" of this computer. So I don't want to think about this too much and prefer Tarot at this time.


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Shiva
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09/03/2020 7:21 pm  
Posted by: @nassah

Ji Ching

What is a "Ji?" Which dialect is this? There are several variants, but I've not seen "Ji" used before.

 


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The HGA of a Duck
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09/03/2020 7:45 pm  

@shiva

In some languages "J" can sound like "Y" in English, so maybe that's what is going on here.

 


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Shiva
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09/03/2020 8:41 pm  
Posted by: @duck

In some languages "J" can sound like "Y" in English, so maybe that's what is going on here.

We are talking/writing Chinese here. Hebrew (et al) letter switching is possible.

Look, there are at least 500 Chinese dialects (some say 1000). I had to wade through a lot of that, and Ji is one I've not seen before. Ji is now used by some idiots as a substitute for Chi, which has been the Word of the highest Law for Aeons. Now the heathen and Red Communists spell it Qi for us ferrenghi. You see why the Holy guidelines require posts be in English? The Leaning Tower of Babylon symbol is worse than a Crowned virus Epidemic.

 


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The HGA of a Duck
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10/03/2020 12:30 am  
Posted by: @shiva

You see why the Holy guidelines require posts be in English?

Yes, but remember there are forum members whose first language is not English, and in their language Chinese may be transliterated differently, so go easy on them I guess.


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Shiva
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10/03/2020 3:06 am  
Posted by: @duck

Yes, but remember there are forum members whose first language is not English, and in their language Chinese may be transliterated differently, so go easy on them I guess.

You guess? I am not accepting any foreign lingo misunderstandings. But I went as easy as possible. I did not abuse the poster.

Posted by: @shiva

What is a "Ji?" Which dialect is this? There are several variants, but I've not seen "Ji" used before.

That [^] is going easy. If he made an error, he may explain. If he translated correctly according to some variant, I'd like to hear about it.

Note for linguists and variant deviates: I Ching (Mandarin Chinese) means "Canon [book, Liber] of Changes." AC spelled it Yi King (Cantonese Chinese). No surprises there. Mandarin is smooth and musical. Cantonese sounds like a garbage disposal device with a metal fork in it.


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The HGA of a Duck
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10/03/2020 4:39 am  

@shiva

Sorry for any confusion. I'll try another angle:

For example in German, "I Ching" is transliterated "I Ging", so a German poster might type "I Ging" here not being aware of the English transliteration "I Ching". And by "go easy on" I just meant in general, for someone whose first language isn't English that isn't really a "mistake" as such.

 


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Shiva
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10/03/2020 6:25 am  
Posted by: @duck

in German, "I Ching" is transliterated "I Ging", so a German poster might type "I Ging" here not being aware of the English transliteration "I Ching".

Right. So I might ask, "What is a Ging," and the poster would explain, and the matter would be settled.

Posted by: @duck

by "go easy on" I just meant in general, for someone whose first language isn't English that isn't really a "mistake" as such.

Fine. Then they can answer my question about JI, and the matter will be settled.

The Guideline scripture says posts must be in English. Asking what someone means is "going easy." There are people here who would deride a mis-speller and cause him or her emotional grief. The term "potty-mouth" has been used recently. Sometimes people are ridiculed and harassed. They are often smeared with the word Bullshit ... frequently.

This is the big leagues here. I am tolerant of new folks (unless they appear with the key to it all), or are trolling. I am tolerant of foreign lingo folks who might be struggling with English - I correspond regularly with Thelemites in several countries where English is not spoken except as a second (or fifth) language.

It seems that you feel I was "too hard or harsh ... in asking a simple question:

Posted by: @shiva

What is a "Ji?" Which dialect is this? There are several variants

Perhaps your sensitive sensitivities feel that [^] was not "easy" enough according to the sensibilities of your yama, which might be different from my niyama?

Now I'm not going to unload on you, except in the subtlest way, because you are a nice guy, a fifth-ray wiz with a fanciful mentat. Plus you are relatively new in the ring (but a long-timer in the audience. I have done many things in my life, started with manual labor, moving up to administering an Order, treating patients, and running medical schools. That's all gone now, water under the pylons of life. Only one external avocation remains ... as you may have noted, I teach martial arts, hard-style and flowing grace. I have never hit a student. Well, there's those stinging focuses that barely brush the skin, but those are only when the student tries to slip on in on me (Ha! I tapped the sensei)(a sensei is a doctor or teacher).

The basic rule is: Never throw the first punch. Around here, I respond. The number of threads I have started can be counted on one foot (using toe digits for data retrieval). You have not thrown a punch, but you have held up your hand (metaphorically speaking) between two other people. Which is fine, but folks who get between two forces often get whacked.

If the moderator feels I am over-exerting, and he might after reading this most benign explanation of how I feel I have not been "too hard" by asking a simple question without potty-mothing or deriding the postulant, or due to my calming effect on over-sensitive posters who wish to modify my style ... well, he'll let us all know. I can read it now ...

You are bad.
Your account is closed.

It's been fun chatting with you. I'd still like to know if you do the work ... other than the fifth-ray stuff that is your mental and visual specialty (see Megatron ashram 5.6)? Raja Yoga? Astral journeys? Banishing? Invocation? Divination by some generally accepted method? Those things. Are you embracing the wider curriculum? Or do you solo in esoteric QBL?

Since I have no objection to you asking me such things, I have no hesitation in asking you. We need the full scope of anyone's roundabout depth, before we can decide how seriously to take him or her.


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(@nassah)
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10/03/2020 4:26 pm  

Uau, such a tsunami… Shiva, you are right, it is an error. J or Y, for you there is a difference in pronunciation (but not in gematria). In former Yugoslavia (Serbia, Slavinski et al.) they used to write JI ČING (that Č is your ch as in choke). Shall I write an APOLOGIA to you, Shiva? Anyway I did not understood to whom it was intended your account closeing.


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ignant666
(@ignant666)
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10/03/2020 4:41 pm  

"Uau" is spelled "Wow" in English... the Tower of Babble strikes again!

Shiva is just funnin' ya, son.


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(@nassah)
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10/03/2020 6:02 pm  

ignant666

"Shiva is just funnin' ya, son."

Aren't we all funnin' each other?

And how about V and W in Gematria? I live in Slovenia (European Union) and I understand English language (I understand enough to read literature), but you guys do not understand Slovenian language and I am not surprised about it. But I am surprised that JI echoed in to another topic:

@shiva: "My apologies and harkiri if I have confused the plains or misunderstood the flow of Chi, Ki, Qi, Ji."

But anyway we are just funning each other… aren't we?


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The HGA of a Duck
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10/03/2020 7:58 pm  
Posted by: @shiva

It seems that you feel I was "too hard or harsh ... in asking a simple question

Thanks for the unexpected long reply (I find it amusing how some "nonsense" turned into this mini-discussion). "Go easy on" might have been the wrong choice of words, it wasn't intended to be about any poster in particular, and wasn't intended as an "instruction" for you personally, just an "attitude" towards "foreign" posters in general. 

Sorry for not being clear enough, my post might have sounded "over-sensitive". I'm not here to "modify" anyone's posting style (that would be rather boring). And no, you weren't being "too hard" (or "hard" at all).

Posted by: @shiva

Fine. Then they can answer my question about JI, and the matter will be settled.

It seems the question has now been answered, and as I expected it was a matter of "Tower of Babel" transliteration confusion.

I should have been more clear from the start, with the "Ji" example, if its not a variant you have encountered before (it sounds like you know a lot on this subject) its more likely that it isn't one and you can just mentally file it under "foreign poster using the wrong transliteration for English". And just say "please use the proper transliteration for English to avoid confusion on these forums", or something.

Posted by: @shiva

I'd still like to know if you do the work

A good question that might need its own thread. For now I can just say that I'm a beginner to actually doing any "practices". I've read a lot of esoteric material but up until now have been too lazy to do anything with it. So far I've mainly been doing the "esoteric QBL" and "esoteric graphics" because its something you can do by sitting on your bum in front of a computer. 🙂 


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