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Indulgence and transgression in magickal practice

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katrice
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A little something I just threw together:
 
Crowley definitely worked with transgression, antinomianism, and indulgence in his own practice, which was part of what led to his classification as Wickedest Man In The World, and people who remember my first thread here know that these things fascinate me and are part of my own practice as well.  I do understand that Crowley's own Work, as documented in his diaries, as opposed to his works on magick itself, are not necessarily meant to be followed by everyone, but naturally they do provide a great source of inspiration.
 
I would also like to point out that while Crowley may have identified with the RHP, it is clear that he worked with LHP concepts. Some have said that he seemed to actually just follow what worked for him, regardless of Path, or that he really worked to synthesize both Paths.   I have my own take on that but my take is not relevant to this post.
 
Indulgence can serve as a source of power, anything that induces pleasure and/or inspiration can serve to aid in magickal practice. Determining what truly does these things for you, rather than what comes from outside conditioning , seeking what connects most deeply with your true self, can also be an important part of initiatory work.
 
There are cautions here which should be common sense but still bear mentioning. Ask yourself if these things truly affect you deeply or if they are just things you believe you should enjoy, and ask yourself if  you are truly using indulgence as a source of power, under your will, or are you just making up excuses to indulge? 
 
I believe that  any indulgence that carries a high risk of addiction, especially physical addiction, should be avoided, though anything can at least become psychologically addictive.  I believe that continual self-observation is required when working with this concept, in order to guard against the risk of addiction.  We should rule our indulgences and our tools, not be ruled by them, but those who can maintain mastery of such tools can find a great source of power in them.
 
Physical addiction is another matter, and examples from Crowley's own experiences can illustrate the risks there.  Personally I question the magickal usefulness of highly physically addictive substances like opiates and cocaine.   Viability of the use of less physically addictive substances like alcohol would be determined by the physical and psychological makeup of the individual.
 
Regarding antinomianism, exercising it against one's cultural and social context and taboos in magickal practice can aid in separating one from the limitations of those things, aiding one in finding and developing one's own will and potential. This unfortunately can also serve as an excuse for just acting like an edgelord, but when consciously applied it can aid in initiatory work. 
 
Transgression against one's own taboos can prove much more powerful,though, allowing one to transcend personal limitations.  In some cases it can also lead one to discover new indulgences and therefore new sources of power. Work in this area can be as minor as eating food that one finds unpleasant in order to overcome the aversion to it, or as major as a ritual that ends with one humiliated and covered in blood and other bodily substances as a test of one's visceral reactions to things one finds unpleasant and a test of the strength of one's will. Paul Huson's initiation ritual in his book Mastering Witchcraft is nothing more than reciting the Lord's Prayer backwards while visualizing lightning striking shackles off of your wrists and ankles, but some people have claimed powerful experiences from it.  While some could accuse use of such practices as excuses to shallowly  indulge in unpleasant things in the name of initiation, remember that in Hindu Tantra, Raga, translated as "Aversion", is one of the five Kleshas to be overcome, and that such transgressive work, on a personal and contextual level, plays a major role in the practices of the Aghoris, and of some modern Western groups like the New Flesh Palladium, the Legion of the Black Sun, and the (probably mythical) Cult of Priapus and Ayana, as well as in the practices of figures like Maria de Naglowska and Rosaleen Norton.
 
I can speak from experience that what Fr U:.D:. called the Trance of Loathing, where one experiences something so personally repulsive that it shakes one to their core and actually induces an altered state of consciousness, can prove extremely powerful.  In some cases, we get to Heaven through Hell, metaphorically speaking.
 
It should also go without saying that you may have taboos that you are perfectly fine with never overcoming.  I've never killed anyone, for example, and have no desire to ever do so.
 
All of these practices carry risks, they can prove too strong, causing psychological damage or addiction, or can simply become excuses for empty indulgence or empty rebellion, but for those with the will to apply them properly, they can become very power tools for initiatory work. Crowley's own life certainly illustrates the advantages and disadvantages of going down these paths.
 
Thank you for coming to my TED talk.  😉 

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hadgigegenraum
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Thanks for the talk! I encourage your researches and investigations into these presentations formulas and traditions...

The psychologies involved are quite interesting and played with by religions, spiritual and secular for millennium...unfortunately used to enslave rather than liberate, but such is a big subject....

Now in the reception afterwards maybe you might give your take on this-

Posted by: @katrice

I would also like to point out that while Crowley may have identified with the RHP, it is clear that he worked with LHP concepts. Some have said that he seemed to actually just follow what worked for him, regardless of Path, or that he really worked to synthesize both Paths.   I have my own take on that but my take is not relevant to this post.


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ignant666
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We might want to clarify what "LHP" exactly we mean:

  • The Tantric Hindu/Buddhist "LHP" of eating meat, sex, wine, aghori practices, etc.,
  • Blavatsky's Europeanization of "LHP" which begins to add the idea of "evil"/"Black Magic" to the Tantric use of transgression -> enlightenment,
  • Crowley's use of "Brother of the Left Hand Path" to mean one who fails the 8=3 test and holds on to ego post 7=4, or perhaps
  • The contemporary use of the term by post-Laveyan Satanists to mean willful pursuit of "superman" status (ie deliberately setting out to fail the 8=3 test) through serving various goblins and spacemen, and generally carrying on in a vewwy scawwy ooky-spooky "evil" manner?

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katrice
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Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

Thanks for the talk! I encourage your researches and investigations into these presentations formulas and traditions...

The psychologies involved are quite interesting and played with by religions, spiritual and secular for millennium...unfortunately used to enslave rather than liberate, but such is a big subject....

Now in the reception afterwards maybe you might give your take on this-

Thank you!  I could have typed more, but thought this gave a decent initial overview.  I'll address your request below in my response to Ignant

Posted by: @ignant666

We might want to clarify what "LHP" exactly we mean:

  • The Tantric Hindu/Buddhist "LHP" of eating meat, sex, wine, aghori practices, etc.,
  • Blavatsky's Europeanization of "LHP" which begins to add the idea of "evil"/"Black Magic" to the Tantric use of transgression -> enlightenment,
  • Crowley's use of "Brother of the Left Hand Path" to mean one who fails the 8=3 test and holds on to ego post 7=4, or perhaps
  • The contemporary use of the term by post-Laveyan Satanists to mean willful pursuit of "superman" status (ie deliberately setting out to fail the 8=3 test) through serving various goblins and spacemen, and generally carrying on in a vewwy scawwy ooky-spooky "evil" manner?

 

We might want to indeed, though I'd thought you'd seen me cover than in the thread I'd started when I first joined. 

 

The basic criteria involve two things:

 

What is popularly called "Self Deification", though that's a loaded term, especially in light of those BALG people's use of the idea. I just use it as it's the most popular phrase for it. "Daimonic Integration" might work as a better term. The realization and progressive integration in to the self on all levels of the full potential of what people call the HGA, daimon, natura completa, nucleus, augoides, etc, through the pursuit of initiatory magick. You could call this "superman status" in a way, perhaps.  Crowley certainly did seem to encourage further, deeper integration beyond 5=6

 

And Antinomianism, as described above. Indulgence can fall under the heading antinomian practice.  This covers your "eating meat, sex, wine, aghori practices" and a more mature approach to your "generally carrying on in a vewwy scawwy ooky-spooky "evil" manner". Blavatsky's reaction to these practices resulted in her definition of LHP as "black magic".  While Crowley clearly loved trolling, he also pursued these in a more serious manner as well. 

One can regard egolessness not as absence of a (small "s") self but as a state where one is no longer exclusively identified with that self.

 

No "serving various goblins and spacemen" required, or even desired. 


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hadgigegenraum
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Ignant666's qualifying questions are good, very, and as a lawyer I am sure that he could put you through an ordeal of exacting proportions that could be likened to a tortuous practice, but I think that he has rather given a kind invitation, and to us all... to qualify some important categories of understanding...

Rereading what Ignant666's

Posted by: @ignant666

Crowley's use of "Brother of the Left Hand Path" to mean one who fails the 8=3 test and holds on to ego post 7=4,

is an excellent synopsis and where in relation to the thread, that perhaps certain trainings along the lines that Katrice is offering, help to facilitate the surrender relevant to 8=3 or perhaps strengthen certain ego attachments such that surrender is not facilitated but rather blocked

Of course the 8=3 pledge can taken at any place of 'said attainments' thus obviating 7=4 ego with some more mundane egoic identification...upon which to spit!

 

 


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katrice
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Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

Ignant666's qualifying questions are good, very, and as a lawyer I am sure that he could put you through an ordeal of exacting proportions that could be likened to a tortuous practice, but I think that he has rather given a kind invitation, and to us all... to qualify some important categories of understanding...

 

Indeed they were very good questions, and I enjoyed responding to them.

 

is an excellent synopsis and where in relation to the thread, that perhaps certain trainings along the lines that Katrice is offering, help to facilitate the surrender relevant to 8=3 or perhaps strengthen certain ego attachments such that surrender is not facilitated but rather blocked

Of course the 8=3 pledge can taken at any place of 'said attainments' thus obviating 7=4 ego with some more mundane egoic identification...upon which to spit!

 

I'm not offering any "training", I simply wanted to type out a little summary to explain some of my stances and invite discussion.

Such practices can loosen the bonds of ego and put it more in perspective. Taboos and other limits are part of the ego, after all, while in terms of indulgence, the induction of ecstatic states can also loosen the bonds too. You are correct that they could be applied in either way you mention, though.  Personally, though, I do not subscribe to the idea that ego should be exalted over all, nor, though, so I think it should be despised. Like the Freudian id, it has its place. 

 


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Shiva
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Posted by: @ignant666

We might want to clarify what "LHP" exactly we mean:

Please help me decide which one of the many choices I Am. 

It was so much easier when there was just the Angel, and all these leftist definitions confuse me.

Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

... to qualify some important categories of understanding...

In what is left (there is that which remains) of my memory indicates that I have personally involved myself in [at least] four (4) discussions revolving around the assorted definitions of the so-called Sinster (left) Path.

Ignant has pretty much summed up the potential definitions ... all of which involve Ego (except #1 which is just fine for Occidental folks).

I recommend that all aspirants, irrespective of political or religious affiliation, libation of choice, or current level of irritability or insanity, just focus constantly on the Angel, the Atma, and the Adi ... and forget everything else.

Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

facilitate the surrender relevant to 8=3

Nothing else is relevant. The surrender is unconditional. Just drop it (you) and do what you're told ... which surely will lead to problems you didn't foresee.

Posted by: @katrice

You are correct that they could be applied in either way you mention ...

Yes, this is the Universal Problem Situation. Later (perhaps today?), this cruel inclusion of duality into everything known, unknown, or lost, may be redeemed. It really is a pain, upfront and in the behind, but this is all we have to work with. 

Every action (thought, word, deed) is either Good or Evil, depending on which button one pushes, or who one designates as the beneficiary. But this (Good/Evil) definition is so morally and emotionally loaded that we might seek a better set of terms.

How about Synthetic and Naughty, instead of Good and Evil/Bad? It's the Synthetic approach (no difference) that gets one off the train track of triviality, and the Naughty boy or girl is simply extending their Shen (consciousness) deeper into matter.

Posted by: @katrice

I do not subscribe to the idea that ego should be exalted over all, nor, though, so I think it should be despised. Like the Freudian id, it has its place. 

Amen.

(Many people think Amen means "So be it," which is what the priests, revs and mins have taught them. Ha-ha. It is, of course, the possible "Using the Lord's name in Vain" [Vanity]. The reference is to Amun, Amen, Amon, Amoun, who was the alpha chief god in Thebes where the Capital was located. But he is a Jupiterian dude, and he will keep you [anyone] Chained to Chesed for Eternity ... so let me rephrase my agreement ...

Heru.


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katrice
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Posted by: @shiva

Please help me decide which one of the many choices I Am. 

It was so much easier when there was just the Angel, and all these leftist definitions confuse me.

They're not all mutually exclusive, as you can see. 

 

In what is left (there is that which remains) of my memory indicates that I have personally involved myself in [at least] four (4) discussions revolving around the assorted definitions of the so-called Sinster (left) Path.

Ignant has pretty much summed up the potential definitions ... all of which involve Ego (except #1 which is just fine for Occidental folks).

 

And there's the one that I gave.  😉 

 

I recommend that all aspirants, irrespective of political or religious affiliation, libation of choice, or current level of irritability or insanity, just focus constantly on the Angel, the Atma, and the Adi ... and forget everything else.

Daimonic integration.

 

Yes, this is the Universal Problem Situation. Later (perhaps today?), this cruel inclusion of duality into everything known, unknown, or lost, may be redeemed. It really is a pain, upfront and in the behind, but this is all we have to work with. 

At  certain point, though, dualities cease to apply.

 

Every action (thought, word, deed) is either Good or Evil, depending on which button one pushes, or who one designates as the beneficiary. But this (Good/Evil) definition is so morally and emotionally loaded that we might seek a better set of terms.

How about Synthetic and Naughty, instead of Good and Evil/Bad? It's the Synthetic approach (no difference) that gets one off the train track of triviality, and the Naughty boy or girl is simply extending their Shen (consciousness) deeper into matter.

 

Conventional definitions of good and evil lie in the eye of the beholder, like Blavatsky's definition of the term LHP vs the Hindu definition.  Like how many people define "Black Magick" as "Magick I do not like" or "Magick done by people I do not like".  You reach a point where the term Black Magick becomes meaningless.  For LHP,  Igant's and my definitions have common roots for the most part. 

 

Amen.

Thank you.

Heru.

 

Gesundheit. 


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ignant666
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@katrice's "LHP" seems to straddle a fine line between my Definition #1 (Tantrik transgression to achieve union with the same gods the RHP-ers pursue union with via abstention), and Definition #4 (contemporary Satanic aspiration to "Black Brother"-hood/8=3 flunk-out status via transgression, "evil", and all too often actual evil, such as rape and murder (see ToB, O9A, etc etc). One would be remiss were one not to note the frequency of methamphetamine issues among such folk (ex-speed freek myself, no blame, but....; takes one to know one, as the kids say))

As you (katrice) seem a sensible sort of person, probably this will all work out fine, because when the time comes you will pour out that blood into that cup (as the kids also say (if they are the right kids)).

I should clarify for you as a lashtal newb that my use of the term "goblins and spacemen" to mean "alleged occult entities such as HGAs and daimons and demons", and of "oooky-spooky", were a sort of tribute/hommage to language beloved by a departed lashtal comrade, the ultra-materialist, would-be rationalist, buffoon trading as S.'. H.'. Dr. @Los PhD 8=3. He left us when he got tired of being virtually [now-unspeakable term]-slapped for many years, but is fondly remembered by some of us.


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katrice
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Posted by: @ignant666

@katrice's "LHP" seems to straddle a fine line between my Definition #1 (Tantrik transgression to achieve union with the same gods the RHP-ers pursue union with via abstention), and Definition #4 (contemporary Satanic aspiration to "Black Brother"-hood/8=3 flunk-out status via transgression, "evil", and all too often actual evil, such as rape and murder (see ToB, O9A, etc etc). 

I suppose you could see it that way, though it all comes back to Definition #1 ultimately, just approached from beyond its root culture. 

It's not really my definition, though, just my explanation. 

There's also the distinction between the Transcendent branch, which focuses primarily on initiation, and the Immanent branch, which focuses primary on the material world. Transcendents still make partake of the worldly, of course, as Immanents may pursue initiatory work, the distinction just lies in which is the main focus.  

I didn't address the ToB, O9A, etc etc folks directly, though I probably should have. I did mention the Cult of Priapus and Ayana, as they are said to pursue practices like the ones I'd mentioned. They're said to incorporate nonconsensual sex magick and other taboo-breaking acts in to their practice, but, like I said, they seem to be mythical. Groups like the ToB and O9A represent the most egregious manifestation of taking an immature approach to transgression.  Setting aside obvious matters of consent, they simply perform "Evil" acts for their own sake.  Transgression in an initatorily useful manner may initially involve violating societal taboos as a way of separating one's self from one's context in order to reduce its influence,  ultimately the most powerful transgression transgresses against the self in order to transcend one's limitations.   

 

One would be remiss were one not to note the frequency of methamphetamine issues among such folk (ex-speed freek myself, no blame, but....; takes one to know one, as the kids say))

I shall mention no names.

As you (katrice) seem a sensible sort of person, probably this will all work out fine, because when the time comes you will pour out that blood into that cup (as the kids also say (if they are the right kids)).

Thank you.  I'll never say that this way is for everyone, and it does carry obvious risks, as we've all seen, but for those with the will to pursue it without falling in to the traps, it can be very rewarding. I think that some people are just called to it. 

I should clarify for you as a lashtal newb that my use of the term "goblins and spacemen" to mean "alleged occult entities such as HGAs and daimons and demons", and of "oooky-spooky", were a sort of tribute/hommage to language beloved by a departed lashtal comrade, the ultra-materialist, would-be rationalist, buffoon trading as S.'. H.'. Dr. @Los PhD 8=3. He left us when he got tired of being virtually [now-unspeakable term]-slapped for many years, but is fondly remembered by some of us.

OK, thank you for the clarification!  I've seen Los mentioned here and there while I've been reading old threads here.

 


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EpsilonPiEta
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I must admit to reading this thread too many times, because I'm struggling to grasp it's deeper meaning.

>Indulgence can serve as a source of power, anything that induces pleasure and/or inspiration can serve to aid in magickal practice.

... and I realized tonight that the phrase "magickal practice" is where I'm getting hung-up, but this line from Katrice's original post is, I believe the essence of her point and my confusion.

"Magickal practice" is surely something we all immediately understand, and yet maybe struggle with at some level. (Maybe just I do.) At the beginning of our Magickal career's (i.e. life) we surely have a lot of learning to do and we may seek assistance from any available sources: books, people, and life experience (but at this beginning stage, this is surely lacking). It's only much later (in my case) that we formulate a sense of a "higher source" (HGA) from which to draw inspiration and assistance. I think the hardest to understand part of the definition of Magick is "in conformity with Will", i.e. our goal in using the 'art and science'.

The more time I spend contemplating "Magickal practices" the more I feel like it converges on the question of "Will". i.e. 'what is my will'. I've mentioned in previous posts that one of my desires for my daughter is for her to find a "purpose" (in life) which she can pursue to achieve her highest Joys. Once we have a taste for the Joy that comes as a result of the accomplishment of Will, then everything will work itself out. We just need a goal and sufficient intensity to work toward that goal without giving up.

If I go back to the original post, I feel like for myself, that these practices can help in two areas: 1. to help me to refine my goals (Will) by receiving "inspiration" from "higher sources" (very closely aligned with the idea of "imagination") - RHP? and 2. to help "kill off" that damn ego which serves to "filter" our higher "inspiration" which results in a false "vision" (LHP?) of these "higher sources".

I'm not sure if this adds to the discussion or not for anyone, but the intersection of 'sex' and 'magick' is an interesting topic. I'm sure my concern with "Joy" and "Will" is surely derived from a position "below the abyss", but I'm happy to wait in this position until we're all ready to cross together. 🙂


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NIN
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I Liked you post. I thought I'd offer some thoughts.

These aversive practices can indeed be fascinating and they can be carried out in the course of life and not in a magical context, but of course can be related to the magical implications of their practice, as a magician would. What I mean is that many of our taboos can be experienced through accepted, if not actually normalised, societal practices. An extreme example would be so-called ‘resistance to interrogation’ training in a military context. The ‘student’ or rather ’aspirant’ to the corps he or she seeks acceptance into will undergo extremes that are in fact taboos in normal civilian life. Overcoming and accepting these, or not, leads to selection or not, along with many other tests, and a crossing of the threshold into the interior of the qualified and accepted brother and sisterhood.

Take resistance to interrogation training for example. This is brought on in an unexpected and not entirely voluntarily moment when one is suddenly immersed into a new and repulsive world of all manner of taboos according to normalised societal practices. You might know something like it is coming at some point, but not to the extent it materialises. Your senses are deprived, blindfolded, extreme unceasing noise, naked, cold and wet, sleep deprived, immersed in filth and shit, unable to sit for fear of drowning, psychologically abused by the opposite sex about all the personal aspects of your life until nothing is left hidden, intellectually challenged through interrogation, physically and psychologically humiliated in all manner of situations, eating disgusting stuff you would never normally eat, for days, etc. Altered consciousness is almost a given. Almost everything an aghori might seek to turn to a magical or mystical outcome.

Now if you are person of normal faculties you can overcome all of this and get on with life afterwards without being psychologically damaged forever more. If you are a magician however, you can use this type of experience in a magical way to change yourself and your entire outlook on life for the better. Of course there are many other taboos in ordinary civilian society that the military crosses. You could take the view that soldiers, sailors and airmen who volunteer to undergo this kind of training and employment don’t see these experiences as taboos and that they therefore do not have the effect of overcoming a taboo on them as it would on others. I think that is the exception to the rule however and that these averse experiences have a profound effect on almost everyone.

Other extreme experiences that might be turned to life changing effect may not be taboos at all, but they might invoke extreme fear or not depending on your outlook. Fear of heights being overcome by taking up skydiving or free climbing for instance, or claustrophobia being overcome by taking up deep sea salvage diving are two examples. There are other easier ways to experience these things but these are just examples. Doing something your fear or abhor is a key here.

As civilians how do we get to the same level of overcoming our taboos to magically attain when these extreme experiences are not normally available? Are these extreme experiences in fact necessary at all? Of course there are businesses and pseudo-bootcamp training organisations that can give you a feel for some of these experiences and they may be helpful, or you can attempt overcome some of your taboos yourself through seeking out your own experiences of the things that you abhor or fear. There are magical groups mentioned in the post that could also be helpful. Anyway, I think it valuable for your own magical development to undergo personal taboo and fearful experiences as much as you can achieve. The life changing effect can be profoundly initiatory.

Now, I don’t think terming this sort of practice as LHP, as in some situations it is in fact normalised RHP, aids in any real way. Anyway, LH and RHP are dualisms that we are probably better off move away from, as are good and evil. These dualisms and opposites are eliminated across the ‘abyss’, which is in fact a dualism in itself and is also not a helpful concept. They are all experiences of existence to be accepted with love and joy.


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katrice
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Posted by: @epsilonpieta

I must admit to reading this thread too many times, because I'm struggling to grasp it's deeper meaning.

>Indulgence can serve as a source of power, anything that induces pleasure and/or inspiration can serve to aid in magickal practice.

... and I realized tonight that the phrase "magickal practice" is where I'm getting hung-up, but this line from Katrice's original post is, I believe the essence of her point and my confusion.

 

Acts which connect with the deepest levels of the self can serve as tools for initiatory work. This can include pleasure and inspiration, and those two are not mutually exclusive, as well as intense confrontation with the self's aversions. 

 

"Magickal practice" is surely something we all immediately understand, and yet maybe struggle with at some level. (Maybe just I do.)

Challenges are part of the path, no matter what path.

 

If I go back to the original post, I feel like for myself, that these practices can help in two areas: 1. to help me to refine my goals (Will) by receiving "inspiration" from "higher sources" (very closely aligned with the idea of "imagination") - RHP?

Not necessarily RHP, especially if your higher source comes from within.  

 

and 2. to help "kill off" that damn ego which serves to "filter" our higher "inspiration" which results in a false "vision" (LHP?) of these "higher sources".

The hallmarks of the LHP center around Antinomianism, which can involve taboo breaking and indulgence,  and  "Self Deification", aka Daimonic Integration. The HGA is the Daimon.  The integration is bringing it more and more in to manifestation through the self. Look at it as a kind of individuation? 

 

I'm not sure if this adds to the discussion or not for anyone, but the intersection of 'sex' and 'magick' is an interesting topic.

You're adding to the discussion for me!  If you've seen some of the other threads I've been involved in here, you know it's an interesting topic for me too.

 

I'm sure my concern with "Joy" and "Will" is surely derived from a position "below the abyss", but I'm happy to wait in this position until we're all ready to cross together. 🙂

 

 


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ignant666
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Posted by: @rd7772003

resistance to interrogation training for example.

When my late father did this training in USAF during the Korean War, it was done by an ex-SS guy who began by saying "Und now, ve vill de-humanize you a little."

They did so, beginning with waterboarding, and moving on to more, um, advanced practices. His friends that got shot down and were POWs said the training was like a spring picnic compared to the real thing.


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Shiva
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Posted by: @ignant666

compared to the real thing.

I recently spoke with a fellow who was a Lt. in Iraq. He got blown up by a missle - many of his troop dead - and after he spent months in the hosptal, and they wanted to send him home with grafts and decorations, he said, "No, I'm going back out there!"  One of that kind of first-ray warrior.

Anyway, he went through interrogation resistance training. At the end, the Instructor said, "No matter how much you resist, they're going to get everything you have - So you might as well save yourself the trouble and tell them anything they want to know, up-front."

Poo-hah an the seven agonies. 


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katrice
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Posted by: @rd7772003

I Liked you post. I thought I'd offer some thoughts.

Thank you!

These aversive practices can indeed be fascinating and they can be carried out in the course of life and not in a magical context, but of course can be related to the magical implications of their practice, as a magician would. What I mean is that many of our taboos can be experienced through accepted, if not actually normalised, societal practices.

They totally can, and you give an excellent example that I hadn't known about.  Personal and societal transgression don't have to coincide in the same act. Like I'd mention, sometimes it can be as simple as eating a food that you find repulsive in order to overcome the aversion. 

And certainly fears come under the heading of aversions as well. 

 

. If you are a magician however, you can use this type of experience in a magical way to change yourself and your entire outlook on life for the better.  

Which is naturally the point of the practice. 

. You could take the view that soldiers, sailors and airmen who volunteer to undergo this kind of training and employment don’t see these experiences as taboos and that they therefore do not have the effect of overcoming a taboo on them as it would on others.

 

And here is a key point, even going against societal taboos, you have to actually hold the taboo in some way, even if just risk of repercussions for breaking it, for the practice to be effective.  Otherwise you're merely being an edgelord. 

 

Anyway, I think it valuable for your own magical development to undergo personal taboo and fearful experiences as much as you can achieve. The life changing effect can be profoundly initiatory.

I can personally vouch for that!

 

 Now, I don’t think terming this sort of practice as LHP, as in some situations it is in fact normalised RHP, aids in any real way.

It falls under LHP in that the way of "spiritual dissent" is one of the defining hallmarks of the Path.  But I see the idea of LHP and RHP being in opposition to be immature. They are just different practices, and some may be more suited to one more than the other.

 

  They are all experiences of existence to be accepted with love and joy.

 

Agreed. Thank you for your response!


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hadgigegenraum
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Though perhaps not exactly Katrice's topic heading, this comes to mind from a shamanic yogic training perspective...of Tumo rediscovered so to speak...anyways there is danger involved and thus overcoming of fears, etc...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAjFZpmkEOE


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EpsilonPiEta
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Wim Hof is something!  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzCaZQqAs9I

 


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @katrice
  While some could accuse use of such practices as excuses to shallowly  indulge in unpleasant things in the name of initiation, remember that in Hindu Tantra, Raga, translated as "Aversion"
Murdering innocent people as sacrifice was Hindu practice (the Thugee cult etc), are you going to sanction that as well?  Clearly they were insane criminals.   How about thinking for yourself?
 
Posted by: @katrice
 
 
I can speak from experience that what Fr U:.D:. called the Trance of Loathing, where one experiences something so personally repulsive that it shakes one to their core and actually induces an altered state of consciousness, can prove extremely powerful.  In some cases, we get to Heaven through Hell, metaphorically speaking.
 
Who is choosing the object of repulsion?  You, as in 'your ego'?   Are you are facing repulsions in a constructive manner? 
 
I don't know you but how would you feel about the prospect of going to baseball games, a public gymnasium, Bible Study groups or Young Republican clubs?

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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ignant666
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Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

Murdering innocent people as sacrifice was Hindu practice (the Thugee cult etc),

This is silly and wrong.

Thuggee was not anything like "Hindu practice", it was an underground cult opposed to traditional Hinduism, or else it was a colonialist fantasy invented by the British (the view of many modern scholars).

Saying Thuggee was "Hindu practice" is like identifying Hitler or Manson's killings as "Christian practice".


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katrice
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Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux
Posted by: @katrice
  While some could accuse use of such practices as excuses to shallowly  indulge in unpleasant things in the name of initiation, remember that in Hindu Tantra, Raga, translated as "Aversion"
Murdering innocent people as sacrifice was Hindu practice (the Thugee cult etc), are you going to sanction that as well?  Clearly they were insane criminals.   How about thinking for yourself?
 
 

Hi Dom!  I was wondering when you were going to join in!

 

First, please read Ignant's reply to your post.

Second, you assume that Thuggee existed in a way like the popular depiction of it, which has been debated by scholars for some time.

Third, Thuggee, even according to popular depiction wasn't even purely Hindu, but a Hindu/Muslim hybrid sect. 

Fourth, I'm not certain how citing tradition to reinforce my point counts as not thinking for myself. 

Fifth, presumably since you are on this forum you follow Thelema in some manner, does that mean that you follow everything Crowley said to the letter?  Or do you think for yourself in regards to best practice for you? 

Sixth, you misspelled "Thuggee"

 

Who is choosing the object of repulsion?  You, as in 'your ego'?   
 
Nobody can truly choose the object of repulsion for another, that can only be left to the individual and their observation of their reactions. 
 
 Are you are facing repulsions in a constructive manner?
 
 
Please clarify "constructive manner". 
 
I don't know you but how would you feel about the prospect of going to baseball games, a public gymnasium
I go to neither, but simply because I have no interest in either in any way, good or bad.  
 
, Bible Study groups
I've gone to those and to Christian church pancake breakfasts too, as a personal challenge.  
 
Young Republican clubs?
I've never gone to one in person but I've spent time on extremely conservative forums, which is not my political alignment at all. 
 

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katrice
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Wim Hof is something! 

He really is.

Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

Though perhaps not exactly Katrice's topic heading, this comes to mind from a shamanic yogic training perspective...of Tumo rediscovered so to speak...anyways there is danger involved and thus overcoming of fears, etc...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAjFZpmkEOE

 

Not exactly, but certainly a way of overcoming personal limits that transcends path.

 

I'd compare it to Tummo too.  I learned a similar, but lesser, technique a few years ago that, in addition to working well with other forms of energy work, comes in handy on cold days too.  😀  

 

anyways there is danger involved and thus overcoming of fears, etc...

So often work involving confronting one's limits does involve dangers,physical and/or psychological.

 


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Tiger
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"Thuggee was not anything like "Hindu practice", it was an underground cult opposed to traditional Hinduism, or else it was a colonialist fantasy invented by the British (the view of many modern scholars).

Saying Thuggee was "Hindu practice" is like identifying Hitler or Manson's killings as "Christian practice". "

the hindoos will tell you it wasn't them
the muslims will tell you it was the hindoos

https://youtu.be/VGux2J0rVks

https://youtu.be/tjQOrbk91tU


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Michael Staley
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Posted by: @tiger

the hindoos will tell you it wasn't them
the muslims will tell you it was the hindoos

Hardly the point. Dom's remarks seem to suggest that sacrificing people is a standard element of Hindu worship, when it's clearly not. I was always under the impression that the Thuggee sacrificed to Kali, though for many this was probably a useful cover for a straighforward love of murder, robbery and violence.

I remember being entranced in the early 1980s by a radio dramatisation of a novel by John Masters, The Deceivers, about the infiltration of this cult in the early 1800s.

 


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hadgigegenraum
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The so called "Thugee Cult" is most likely a fiction of the British Empire, a contrived element of colonial rule and demonstration of extreme psychological projection pushed by sociopathic murderous elites...but with a smiley face and Oxford accent...Tony Blair comes to mind! (I suppose I can be corrected on that mass murderers exact dialect)

The dialectics here is to think of  "intelligence operations" akin to a police sting operation, or what is termed cointelpro....the operation goes on all the time, embed operatives to cultivate certain behaviors...the method is rather pervasive, and the induction of new coined word, or revamping of an old one is then used to spook people in the press...and thus the public.... I am sure that there were reams and reams of stories in the fake news of its time about the horrible 'thugees' back when.

The issue is that colonial rule would have looked for various elements to radicalize, promote certain behavior and then exploit it. This is exactly how the rise of "fundamentalist Islamic terrorism" was cultivated by the British, French and later the cuck Americans...

Al Queda, ISIS, etc....are thug operations run by thugs who are part of the Rhodes Roundtables, and openly promote genocide...as Prince Philip has reincarnated into the plague he always represented.

Now in a certain sense assassin cults are real in that assassination is actually a rat in a corner reflex to those pushed to the wall and certainly one that the elites are afraid of, but the present populations do not have the guts to pass the "if you were in a room with Hitler test" meaning would you kill Hitler if you knew that millions would be saved?

Note that it was Ghandi who utilized non-violent resistance to the colonial boot on the neck through genius!

That genius is found it in the word.

That word was and is....Satyagraha !

Satya is Truth and Agraha is polite insistence!

Thus we have polite insistence upon Truth....a 'truth force' as has been noted.

Now at this point the astute will go from hunchback to soldier, and that strangely for yes indeed the word MAAT is

Truth and Justice!

And thus in the context of this thread, might it be that we come to find that the thugs are certain indulgences that suppress such fibers within one's being (sanskrit root Sat) that the capacity for such "insistence' is diminished.

Therefore practices need to be viewed from a lens as conferring such with one's moral will, "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law." than what might be illusions in this regards which takes this back to Ignant666's categories relative to such concepts of RHP & LHP and what is the transcendence or synthesis!

I will leave off by this quote from Wikipedia on Satyagraha

"Satyagraha-Origin and meaning of name

The terms originated in a competition in the news-sheet Indian Opinionin South Africain 1906.[2]Mr. Maganlal Gandhi, grandson of an uncle of Mahatma Gandhi, came up with the word "Sadagraha" and won the prize. Subsequently, to make it clearer, Gandhi changed it to Satyagraha. "Satyagraha" is a tatpuruṣacompoundof the Sanskrit words satya(meaning "truth") and āgraha("polite insistence", or "holding firmly to"). Satya is derived from the word "sat", which means "being". Nothing is or exists in reality except Truth. In the context of satyagraha, Truth therefore includes a) Truth in speech, as opposed to falsehood, b) what is real, as opposed to nonexistent (asat) and c) good as opposed to evil, or bad. This was critical to Gandhi's understanding of and faith in nonviolence: "The world rests upon the bedrock of satya or truth. Asatya, meaning untruth, also means nonexistent, and satya or truth also means that which is. If untruth does not so much as exist, its victory is out of the question. And truth being that which is, can never be destroyed. This is the doctrine of satyagraha in a nutshell."[5]For Gandhi, satyagraha went far beyond mere "passive resistance" and became strength in practising non-violent methods.[6]In his words:

Truth (satya) implies love, and firmness (agraha) engenders and therefore serves as a synonym for force. I thus began to call the Indian movement Satyagraha, that is to say, the Force which is born of Truth and Love or non-violence, and gave up the use of the phrase “passive resistance”, in connection with it, so much so that even in English writing we often avoided it and used instead the word “satyagraha” itself or some other equivalent English phrase.[7]

In September 1935, a letter to P. K. Rao, Servants of India Society, Gandhi disputed the proposition that his idea of civil disobediencewas adapted from the writings of Henry David Thoreau, especially the essay Civil Disobediencepublished in 1849.

The statement that I had derived my idea of civil disobedience from the writings of Thoreau is wrong. The resistance to authority in South Africa was well advanced before I got the essay of Thoreau on civil disobedience. But the movement was then known as passive resistance. As it was incomplete, I had coined the word satyagraha for the Gujarati readers. When I saw the title of Thoreau’s great essay, I began the use of his phrase to explain our struggle to the English readers. But I found that even civil disobedience failed to convey the full meaning of the struggle. I therefore adopted the phrase civil resistance. Non-violence was always an integral part of our struggle."[8]

Gandhi described it as follows:

Its root meaning is holding on to truth, hence truth-force. I have also called it love-force or soul-force. In the application of satyagraha, I discovered in the earliest stages that pursuit of truth did not admit of violence being inflicted on one’s opponent but that he must be weaned from error by patience and compassion. For what appears to be truth to the one may appear to be error to the other. And patience means self-suffering. So the doctrine came to mean vindication of truth, not by infliction of suffering on the opponent, but on oneself.[9]

Contrast to "passive resistance"

Gandhi distinguished between satyagraha and passive resistance in the following letter:

I have drawn the distinction between passive resistance as understood and practised in the West and satyagraha before I had evolved the doctrine of the latter to its full logical and spiritual extent. I often used “passive resistance” and “satyagraha” as synonymous terms: but as the doctrine of satyagraha developed, the expression “passive resistance” ceases even to be synonymous, as passive resistance has admitted of violence as in the case of the suffragettesand has been universally acknowledged to be a weapon of the weak. Moreover, passive resistance does not necessarily involve complete adherence to truth under every circumstance. Therefore it is different from satyagraha in three essentials: Satyagraha is a weapon of the strong; it admits of no violence under any circumstance whatsoever; and it ever insists upon truth.[10]

 Regards,

HG

 

 


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katrice
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Posted by: @michael-staley

Hardly the point. Dom's remarks seem to suggest that sacrificing people is a standard element of Hindu worship, when it's clearly not. I was always under the impression that the Thuggee sacrificed to Kali, though for many this was probably a useful cover for a straighforward love of murder, robbery and violence.

 

I've seen references to Muslim members too, but there's still a lot of debate on how much of the stories about Thuggee are accurate.  There was probably some basis to it but it was mythologized and used as propaganda.

According to Wikipedia:

The Muslim thugs, while retaining their monotheistic faith, had functionalised Bhavani for Thuggee and she was syncretised as a spirit subordinate to Allah. A Muslim thug caught by Sleeman stated "In my heart, I take the name of God, when I strangle a man – saying "thou God and ruler!" "Alla, toomee Malik!" I do not pray to Bhowanee, but I worship her." Other Muslim thugs who had agreed to testify for Sleeman, stated they had assimilated Bhavani with Islamic prophet Muhammad's daughter Fatimah who killed Raktabija and started the practice of Thuggee.[58]

  1.  K. Wagner (2007). Thuggee: Banditry and the British in Early Nineteenth-Century India. Springer. p. 141. ISBN 9780230590205.

 

The use of deities as patrons for criminal groups isn't unusual, as you probably know. Santisma Muerte for drug cartels and Guan Yu for triads are other good examples.

 

I remember being entranced in the early 1980s by a radio dramatisation of a novel by John Masters, The Deceivers, about the infiltration of this cult in the early 1800s.

There was also a movie of that, with Pierce Brosnan.

 

 

 


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @katrice    Crowley definitely worked with transgression, antinomianism, and indulgence in his own practice, which was part of what led to his classification as Wickedest Man In The World 
No, he earned that moniker because of  his public school/ Victorian/ Plymouth Brethren conditioning which warped him.  Subsequently a lot of his behaviour was warped. Due to his unusual and admirable penchant for public radical-honesty he made the Yellow Press where, yes he became known as The Wickedest Man In The World.   It was middle class hypocrisy to call out AC for being a typical Tory pervert and he knew it hence the whole thing was perpetuated.    
 
 
Posted by: @katrice

First, please read Ignant's reply to your post.

I did, maybe I got it wrong about The Thuggees (was that a defence mechanism you grammar-nazi-ing me earlier?)  but I was looking for a disagreeable aspect of Hinduism (maybe I could've used the Hindu caste- system example instead etc/whatever) to have you question your means of using someone's dogma to convince yourself that 'trying to get high from being repulsed at repulsive things' is maybe f----ed up. 

Your original statement was 

 While some could accuse use of such practices as excuses to shallowly  indulge in unpleasant things in the name of initiation, remember that in Hindu Tantra, Raga, translated as "Aversion", is one of the five Kleshas to be overcome, and that such transgressive work, on a personal and contextual level, plays a major role in the practices of the Aghoris,

Posted by: @katrice

Fifth, presumably since you are on this forum you follow Thelema in some manner, does that mean that you follow everything Crowley said to the letter?  Or do you think for yourself in regards to best practice for you? 

The latter yes, correct.  

Nobody can truly choose the object of repulsion for another, that can only be left to the individual and their observation of their reactions. 
 
 
How about who you take to be  'Hindu Tantra Masters' can they tell you what is or isn't repulsive?

I go to neither, but simply because I have no interest in either in any way, good or bad. 

So it's not because you'd feel uncomfortable and repulsed in some way if you were to attend such places? 
 
Posted by: @katrice
 
 
I can speak from experience that what Fr U:.D:. called the Trance of Loathing, where one experiences something so personally repulsive that it shakes one to their core and actually induces an altered state of consciousness, can prove extremely powerful.  In some cases, we get to Heaven through Hell, metaphorically speaking.

What loathed you in those instances?  Remember, edge-lords love to surround/armour themselves in mystery.   While we're on the subject how does a young person grow up to become an edge-lord? 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Shiva
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Posted by: @katrice
Posted by: @katrice    Crowley definitely worked with transgression, antinomianism, and indulgence in his own practice, which was part of what led to his classification as Wickedest Man In The World 
Dom replies - No, he earned that moniker because of  his public school/ Victorian/ Plymouth Brethren conditioning which warped him. 

Don't worry about it. Freud and Jung disagreed a lot.


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katrice
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Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux
No, he earned that moniker because of  his public school/ Victorian/ Plymouth Brethren conditioning which warped him.  Subsequently a lot of his behaviour was warped. Due to his unusual and admirable penchant for public radical-honesty he made the Yellow Press where, yes he became known as The Wickedest Man In The World.   It was middle class hypocrisy to call out AC for being a typical Tory pervert and he knew it hence the whole thing was perpetuated.    
 

 

I think it was more complex than that.  What you outlined was certainly a part of it, but I believe that intentional antinomian practices regarding himself and his societal context were also part of it, as was also his delight in trolling.

 

I did, maybe I got it wrong about The Thuggees (was that a defence mechanism you grammar-nazi-ing me earlier?) 

That was just me being a little flippant after outlining my points

 

but I was looking for a disagreeable aspect of Hinduism (maybe I could've used the Hindu caste- system example instead etc/whatever)

I was surprised you didn't go with Sati

 

to have you question your means of using someone's dogma to convince yourself that 'trying to get high from being repulsed at repulsive things' is maybe f----ed up. 

I didn't mention that to convince myself, I saw it as an essential point to make for any readers of my post because it would be an easy accusation to make. So I decided to cite historical and traditional precedent to help reinforce my statement. 

 

Your original statement was 

Thank you, but I know what I typed.

 

The latter yes, correct.  

Good for you but why do you seem to believe that I don't do that myself?

 
How about who you take to be  'Hindu Tantra Masters' can they tell you what is or isn't repulsive?
 
I thought that

"Nobody can truly choose the object of repulsion for another, that can only be left to the individual and their observation of their reactions." 
 
was pretty clear.
 
So it's not because you'd feel uncomfortable and repulsed in some way if you were to attend such places? 
 
Unless you count disinterest as feeling uncomfortable and repulsed.   Do you feel uncomfortable and repulsed by things that you have literally no interest in?
 
 
 
What loathed you in those instances?  Remember, edge-lords love to surround/armour themselves in mystery.   
 
I've mentioned two prominent examples here before. The one in the thread that I started when I first joined this site, the part that led Shiva to declare me a member of the Anti-Coprophagia Society.  That was done to overcome an extreme personal revulsion, which did work to greatly reduce my negative reactions in that area. I'm certain that you can understand how confrontation+altered state can result in reprogramming.   The other 
was mentioned in the first post in this thread, the "a ritual that ends with one humiliated and covered in blood and other bodily substances", which was aimed at inducing a radical confrontation with my self and a stripping away of barriers that led me to one of my most profound mystical experiences.   
 
 
I want to point out that these are not normal,everyday, examples of my regular practice, nor were they performed for pleasure in any way, and I've certainly performed less profound acts of transgression.  You asked for Trance of Loathing experiences.  If you want more explicit descriptions, I'll have to ask @lashtal how graphic I'd be allowed to be here.
 
While we're on the subject how does a young person grow up to become an edge-lord? 
 
I'm sure there are different reasons, but I think a lot of edgelords act the way they do because it makes them feel powerful and they like the attention.    I certainly went though a rebellious stage in my teens where I intentionally attracted negative attention and reveled in it. 
 

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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @katrice
 
, the "a ritual that ends with one humiliated and covered in blood and other bodily substances", which was aimed at inducing a radical confrontation with my self and a stripping away of barriers that led me to one of my most profound mystical experiences.   
 
 
I want to point out that these are not normal,everyday, examples of my regular practice, nor were they performed for pleasure in any way, and I've certainly performed less profound acts of transgression.  You asked for Trance of Loathing experiences.  If you want more explicit descriptions, I'll have to ask @lashtal how graphic I'd be allowed to be here.

Thanks for your answers.   I take it that you're not a fan of Regardie's take on the Western tradition with him being a Reichian therapist and all?  He advocated Reichian therapy as a precursory practice for beginner practitioners. 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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katrice
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Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

Thanks for your answers.    

You're welcome.

I take it that you're not a fan of Regardie's take on the Western tradition with him being a Reichian therapist and all?  He advocated Reichian therapy for any beginner.

I have respect for Regardie and have interest in Reich's ideas, but, be honest, how many people do you know who went through therapy before beginning magickal practice?  

Not to mention how that requirement, if applied universally, would greatly reduce the number of people who could practice magick, for a couple of reasons. 

But this in no way prevents me from holding Regardie in esteem. Or that I think that undergoing therapy is a bad idea.

And I use Hyatt's Energized Meditation on a daily basis.

 


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Shiva
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Posted by: @katrice

how many people do you know who went through therapy before beginning magickal practice?

Only consort. She breezed through the first five A.'.A.'. degrees without a single flip-out> She did the work and passed the tests the first time. She had no difficulties at Netzach, where the psychological stuff influences the sphere that accounts for the greatest number of failures/drop-outs.

Jerry Cornelius (and I) noted that ladies are attracted to Netzach before Hod because, you know, it's Venus and the fair sex (female gender - self-assigned?). Regardless of gender, the feminine MIND is more attuned to Netzach (than Hod), and there's nothing wrong with allowing this detour take place. In the case of my consort (you may think of her as Kali)(or not - DWTW), she took on Hod first, in the traditional matter, because it's writ that way, and because I was pointing to the next steps on the map.

But when it came to Netzach, well, it's true, I've seen and heard of a few who kicked the golden bucket when approaching (see The Tower Atu) or established in the House of Venus. "A few" is a handful, and the other spheres have a lower dropout rate than that. I am referring to grades, and The Tasks of the Grades, but not to the Student and Probationer levels, where the dropout rate/percentage is higher than two hanfuls and footfulls. That is, the mortality is extremely high. It's because the candidate is turned loose with a Student Reading List, and not much else. The few who read the books then really get turned loose for a year to do "the practices of his (her) choice, while writing a Record.

These poor fellows, gals, and non-gender specific folks drop like flies. It's the having to set up and practice the discipline(s) by one's self that is the test ... and their test. I guess "Let my servants be few and secret" has something to do with it.

I didn't get any therapy before I tripped over myself and found myself on the Path. Instead, I had followed a dual-major curriculum in college: Pre-dental and Psychology. I ended up going with Post-dental, but along the way I studied Jung for quite a few years.

So Israel recommended psycho before starting the Path (In The Eye in the Triangle - a psychanalysis of Aleister). Whew! Heavy Stuff. Shrinking the magus?  In general, he makes a good point. At one point, I worked with a psychiatrist. I taught him (and his wife, kid, guests) Karate ... and he taught me how to drive a race car (as if I hadn't already done that), and he even provided the race car. He also taught 2-person gymnastic ballet. He provided his wife as my partner. After working in closely for a while, and at a slightly wider distance with his professional partner (another psychiatrist), I came to the conclusion that psychiatrists, like dentists, certifiably insane.

However, to be fair and open-minded, I vowed to keep my eye open for a psychiatrist who still had some marbles in his bag. I met a few more. I found one with marbles. Let's put it this way, he wrote The Psychiatrist and The Holy Man (Sai Baba), with whom he had close contact.

All this [^] and the real answer is - No. Most aspirants have not attended therapy. Maybe that's why we have so many exotic colorful clowns floating around the metaphysical marketplace.

Posted by: @katrice

Not to mention how that requirement, if applied universally, would greatly reduce the number of people who could practice magick, for a couple of reasons. 

Well, it was just a recommendation (by a psychoanalyst). If it was a "requirement," then it would have to be adopted by the lineages. Univerally, you noted. Still, a rogue solo aspirant could sneak out into the woods at night and practice Magic to their heart's content and according to the secret Crowley Grimoires purchased under the counter at the local porn shop. Or was it head shop?


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katrice
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Posted by: @shiva

Only consort. She breezed through the first five A.'.A.'. degrees without a single flip-out> She did the work and passed the tests the first time. She had no difficulties at Netzach, where the psychological stuff influences the sphere that accounts for the greatest number of failures/drop-outs.

 

Wow, good for her!  That's really impressive!

 These poor fellows, gals, and non-gender specific folks drop like flies. It's the having to set up and practice the discipline(s) by one's self that is the test ... and their test. I guess "Let my servants be few and secret" has something to do with it.

I personally can;t understand not doing the actual practice, but I know that there are more book collectors out there than people who actually do the practices.  I've seen people sign up for year-long in-person series of courses in magickal practice involving at-home assignments and daily practices that cost hundreds of dollars and do none of the actual work assignments outside of the actual training sessions.   

 

 I came to the conclusion that psychiatrists, like dentists, certifiably insane.

"Wounded healers", to put it most kindly.

 

All this [^] and the real answer is - No. Most aspirants have not attended therapy. 

Your example is the only one I've ever heard of.  

 

Maybe that's why we have so many exotic colorful clowns floating around the metaphysical marketplace.

 

There are clowns and there are clowns.The good clowns are part of what makes it all even more fun and interesting.  

 

Well, it was just a recommendation (by a psychoanalyst). If it was a "requirement," then it would have to be adopted by the lineages. Univerally, you noted. Still, a rogue solo aspirant could sneak out into the woods at night and practice Magic to their heart's content and according to the secret Crowley Grimoires 

 

True enough. Having to go through therapy first, while not a bad idea,  would be prohibitive for a lot of people.  The cost of not doing it can come with how magickal practice can force one to have to confront one's demons whether one wants to or not.  But some would take a preemptive approach to that and seek them out rather than allow them to rise up on their own. 

 

purchased under the counter at the local porn shop. Or was it head shop?

 

The two aren't mutually exclusive.  😀 


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Shiva
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Posted by: @katrice

Having to go through therapy first, while not a bad idea,  would be prohibitive for a lot of people.

The Frater Shiva Foundation has developed a high-frequency, low-cost, clinically-proven, sure-fire alternative to THERAPY FIRST, THERAPY LATER, and NO THERAPY.. Here is exactly how it might work for the financially abused, the initiatorily-deprived, and the common man/woman/mixed on the street ...

1. Read one, simple Intro Book to Psychology that includes a description of the major schools of thought (Freud, Jung, Adler, Leary, et al).

2. Read three (3) Jung books that were writ for public consumption, avoiding (for now) the clinical papers writ for professional colleagues as they might confuse the issue.

3. Take the Jungian terms (like Self, Anima, Id, Ego, etc) and correlate these with the Aleister configuration (like True Self, HGA, Beast, Imp, etc).

This correlation must be complete. That is,
the dork must come to realize no difference
between Anima or HGA [etc],
without thinking.

4. Invoke Lear and consume a full dosage amount in the presence of someone who has been around the block three times. That is, for best results, the someone should be affiliated with the Inner College, and not the Blind leading the Blind.

5. Repeat #4 under various conditions (such as isolation, street-walking, mountain-climbing, sword-fighting [practice], being altered in the presence of Establishment Authorities - without them noticing, and other such common or unusual scenarios.

6. During all this, and even from the beginning, one must indulge the daily practices of Yoga-Union, so that the outer fun might be a reflection of the inner complexes.

7. Keep in mind that psychology is mainly a series of [personal] evocations (with some invocation stuff involved), and that anyone attempting this path [see above] better be armed with the basic magical arts.

This method is much cheaper than paying some licensed crazy person.

Be sure to check your local laws about libations and practicing shamanism without a license.

I guess that about sums it up.

Posted by: @katrice

But some would take a preemptive approach to that and seek them out rather than allow them to rise up on their own. 

But if one does this, then they can be spoken of as "having entered the Path." Too bad (good?) for them, because once one starts this sort of thing, it doesn't end 'til it ends.

Posted by: @katrice

The two aren't mutually exclusive. 

Make that "at the local shop" [unspecified].


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ignant666
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I did 7 years of fairly orthodox psychoanalysis in my 30s, well into my occult studies (which began around puberty).

It was a useful experience, but it seemed to be a process without an end-point, so i provided one by quitting. I think a few years of psychotherapy with a smart, compassionate person with almost any sort of orientation (meaning schools of psych thought) is probably useful to anyone pursuing occult/mystical Work.

Provided one is on a reasonably even mental keel (which #s 1-3 may provide), Shiva's #s 4-6 is also good advice (the same good advice he keeps giving in different contexts, of course). If no Three-Times Around The Block-ers are available, the truly intrepid can just fly solo.

Perhaps we are now approaching the point where psychedelics-based psychotherapy will again be legal in the US and other countries that banned it during the Acid Witch-Hunts of the '60s-'70s. There are a bunch of research projects doing this now, but outside these few projects, LSD, mushrooms, and MDMA (the three substances that have psych research track-records) remain criminalized in most places.


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Shiva
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Posted by: @ignant666

the truly intrepid can just fly solo.

This is the other side of the coin: The no-guru approach. AC wrote the curriculum out for solo mode, while recommending an ongoing search for a "master." Then he opened the door to the A.'.A.'. on the physical plane - a few folks responded. They were asked to do the work. Then he opened the tent of the OTO on the physical plane - a few guys in Canada took hold of that and then moved it to Caliphornia. Why, there were "masters" everywhere (in So Cal).

None of this did any good (sarcastic opinion). The only people who get anywhere are those who are willing to do it alone; if they happen to come across someone with a bigger Tao-bucket, great!

Posted by: @shiva

4. Invoke Lear and consume ...

WHY, I forgot the Y in LearY.

 


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katrice
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Posted by: @shiva

The Frater Shiva Foundation  ...

I suppose I have to work on 4 and 5. I've only had a little experience with psychedelics.  I knew you meant Leary but my first thought was that invoking Lear might not be a good idea, his story doesn't end well, or even middle well.

This method is much cheaper than paying some licensed crazy person.

And therefore more accessible. 

But if one does this, then they can be spoken of as "having entered the Path." Too bad (good?) for them, because once one starts this sort of thing, it doesn't end 'til it ends.

I am all too aware of this and would not have it any other way.

 

Posted by: @ignant666

It was a useful experience, but it seemed to be a process without an end-

We contain multitudes.  😉 

Posted by: @ignant666

Perhaps we are now approaching the point where psychedelics-based psychotherapy will again be legal in the US and other countries that banned it during the Acid Witch-Hunts of the '60s-'70s.

I've been seeing more about this recently too.  

 

Posted by: @shiva

The only people who get anywhere are those who are willing to do it alone;

 

Nobody else can do the Work for you anyway.

 

 

 


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Shiva
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Posted by: @katrice

invoking Lear might not be a good idea, his story doesn't end well, or even middle well.

Um, "invoking LearY was a semi-humorous metaphory. It was a code phrase for "take acid," but I can't advocate that because it's mostly Black Lodge Market illegal contraband stuff. So "invoke LearY" really means "get a legal libation (move to Oregon?) and use it."

I attended one Leary lecture. I saw his aura. Circa 1990. He was a broken man. It was obvious (to me) that "they" had held him (on a single ["planted," he said] joint for quite a while. When they let him out, he did not revert. He was changed. I guess one could say "they" broke him. Once out, he advocated space travel ... but never drugs!

There are pics and vids and reports of him laughing and thoroughly enjoying himself with his friends. He seems happy. I saw a broken man who resented having to do a dog & pony lecture at a New Age Expo because he needed to do something that would pay.

As we left the lecture hall, a place of a hundred seats where 20 had just been occupied, my wife said, "Well, that was depressing."

Posted by: @katrice

Nobody else can do the Work for you anyway.

The Roman Churharchy will save your soul for you (after you die), if you follow their rules, their instructions, and pay your dues regularly. Large gifts are accepted. There are also other cults that will save your soul. Says so in their scriptures.

I am thinking of forming a group of penitents. Note: The local penitents here use Tome Hill - a sacred mount only 2 miles from our home - at night - sometimes to practice their crucifixions. There are 3 crosses permanently erected up on the Hilltop. I will then rent them out to do self-crucifixion or flagellation or the barbed-wire trick, in the place of lazy armchair aspirants who are well-off enough to pay the lease.

 


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katrice
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Posted by: @shiva

Um, "invoking LearY was a semi-humorous metaphory. It was a code phrase for "take acid," but I can't advocate that because it's mostly Black Lodge Market illegal contraband stuff. So "invoke LearY" really means "get a legal libation (move to Oregon?) and use it." 

I knew exactly what you meant.  I was just using your typo to make a Shakespeare joke. 😉 

 

Once out, he advocated space travel ... but never drugs!

 

SMI2LE.  And he seemed in to early cyberculture too. But it felt like there was some bitterness even in his book on that.

 

The Roman Churharchy will save your soul for you (after you die), if you follow their rules, their instructions, and pay your dues regularly

I sometimes wonder if that was part of why it took off like it did, no work required.  

 

 

Note: The local penitents here use Tome Hill - a sacred mount only 2 miles from our home - at night - sometimes to practice their crucifixions. There are 3 crosses permanently erected up on the Hilltop

Wow. 😮 

  I will then rent them out to do self-crucifixion or flagellation or the barbed-wire trick, in the place of lazy armchair aspirants who are well-off enough to pay the lease.

 

Like the Subgeniuses say, "Eternal salvation or triple your money back!"

 


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Shiva
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Posted by: @katrice

Wow.

Please allow me to enter evidential proofs ...

image
image
image

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katrice
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Posted by: @shiva
Posted by: @katrice

Wow.

Please allow me to enter evidential proofs ...

I believed you. 

That's some good photography!


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Shiva
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Posted by: @katrice

I believed you. 

I don't encourage "belief." You know, it's usually just a cultural notion. However, I believe that the penitentes re-enact the crucifixion scene as an initiatory rite ... so that the candidate(s) might get "closer to Christ" through living experience. I don't know where the ordeal begins, but there are tales of people climbing the Hill while getting whipped (by themselves or by another is not clear). I suppose they could hold a Herod trial down in the parking lot, and then lead the candidate up the rather long incline.

image

Tome Hill is credited in writing as being a spiritual "center" for 10,000 years. I don't know how they got that number. I think they estimated, based on unknown (to me) factors. But, Holy Hathoor, it seems to be a negative ion generator. It repels clouds/storms. When storms move in, the last patch of sky is always above Tome Hill, slightly off set according to the direction of the wind (usually from the southwest).

image

When the skies are clear, this vortex pushes the clouds back to form a magical circle that is 50 miles in radius. There are exciting distances less than 50 miles, and if the storm is powerful, the Tome Hole (in the clouds) will disappear and everything will go gray. You don't believe me? Of course you do. But I have a video, one of several, that is pretty cool and keeps me out of jail or purgatory for lying ("bearing false witness").

I will go edit it and come back with proof of a medium-range/radius, natural, magical circle. We're only 2 miles away, so 99%+ of the time, we live in the circle. Neither the farmers, nor the gangs, nor the penitentes, nor the papists bother us (now).

 


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katrice
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Posted by: @shiva

I don't encourage "belief." You know, it's usually just a cultural notion. 

You know what I meant. 😛 

However, I believe that the penitentes re-enact the crucifixion scene as an initiatory rite ... so that the candidate(s) might get "closer to Christ" through living experience. I don't know where the ordeal begins, but there are tales of people climbing the Hill while getting whipped (by themselves or by another is not clear). I suppose they could hold a Herod trial down in the parking lot, and then lead the candidate up the rather long incline.

 

So like an ordeal intended to induce a gnostic state of consciousness? 

But, Holy Hathoor, it seems to be a negative ion generator. It repels clouds/storms. When storms move in, the last patch of sky is always above Tome Hill, slightly off set according to the direction of the wind (usually from the southwest).

Wow, that's very interesting!  I'd love to see that video!


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Shiva
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Posted by: @katrice

You know what I meant.

This is true.

Posted by: @katrice

So like an ordeal intended to induce a gnostic state of consciousness? 

This also is true. The procedure is "ecstatic enthusiasm."

 


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katrice
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Posted by: @shiva
Posted by: @katrice

So like an ordeal intended to induce a gnostic state of consciousness? 

This also is true. The procedure is "ecstatic enthusiasm."

 

I wonder how far they take it, how much physical and mental stress is induced?   I'm thinking in terms of things like how the Confrerie de la Flèche d'Or used hanging in their advanced practices.  

 

 


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @shiva

4. Invoke Lear and consume a full dosage amount in the presence of someone who has been around the block three times. That is, for best results, the someone should be affiliated with the Inner College, and not the Blind leading the Blind 

But they're blind so how would the blind know who the other blind are?  They wouldn't.  A shrink is just a shrink, someone who is supposed to do what your mom and dad should've done i.e. shrink an oversized balloon of a personality.   Your drugged-out proposal is nutty.  Here's mine, be honest about how much of a geek or asshole or weirdo you were in school and beyond.  Painfully write down your past-history shame list.  Watch episodes of Supernanny and analyse how your mom and dad made a mess.

End.

Kids Could Seriously Get Hurt If Nothing Changes | The Krolikowski Family | Supernanny Full Episode - YouTube

 

To be strictly on (sub) topic, Regardie recommended Reichian therapy which I understand is basically centred around deep-tissue massage.  

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Shiva
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Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

But they're blind so how would the blind know who the other blind are?

The candidate is blind. That's why they put that hoodwink or or blindfold on the poor wretch in an attempt to simulate blindness. The someones of the Inner College are only semi-blind. They can see the candidate, AND they can see the guy in the Supernal chair who is telling/gesturing to them, indicating what to do next. The Supernal chair guy is not blind - Gimmee the sign of the open eye ...

All these cans.'. and guys (standing or on chairs)may be gals as well ... and often are.

The moral of the story is that a beginning person should attempt to take their alkaline or acid in the presence of somebody who have their scheiss together and can serve as a traffic controller or mission control center.

"The blind leading the blind" refers to people who are not initiates, or just beginners themselves, who may keep the can.'. from jumping out a window (on the ground floor) or prevent injuy from sharp objects (like daggers or dirks), but they cannot offer insight or guidance into the next level.

Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

A shrink is just a shrink

Yes, and they're all crazy ... except for the "few" who have themselves reached the other shore, and returned ... to guide witless twits into realizing they do not exist.

Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

Your drugged-out proposal is nutty.

Thank you. By the way, it happens to work, and it is not a "proposal." It is a Class D document, a Liber-ation disguised as a forum post.

Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

End.

Well, yeah, that'll work - if you want to get down in the muddy pit and roll around. But there is nothing in your Liber that accounts for, or leads to, the threshold (Liminis) and outer space. Are you implying that advanced initiates cannot reveal or transfer their association with The Void unto their younger brethren and sistren, accelerated by magickal libation?

Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

To be strictly on (sub) topic, Regardie recommended Reichian therapy which I understand is basically centred around deep-tissue massage.  

He practiced this form as a healthcare practitioner. His recommendation (in The Eye in the Triangle) was "a course of psychotherapy" (or words to that general effect). Maybe he specified Reichian Deep Tissue as a recommendation to others somewhere else. Do you have a reference?

 


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katrice
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Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

But they're blind so how would the blind know who the other blind are?  They wouldn't. .  

Presumably you've learned things from other people before, yes?  How do you know that they know what they're doing? 

 Your drugged-out proposal is nutty. 

Do I remember that you're a fan of RAW?

 

Here's mine, be honest about how much of a geek or asshole or weirdo you were in school and beyond.  Painfully write down your past-history shame list. 

A very effective technique, I know from experience, I was all of those things in high school, but even that can only go so deep, and the transrational still needs addressing.

 

Watch episodes of Supernanny and analyse how your mom and dad made a mess.

This I cant comment on because I haven't done that.

 

To be strictly on (sub) topic, Regardie recommended Reichian therapy which I understand is basically centred around deep-tissue massage.  

 

I don't remember him specifying Reichian therapy, just psychotherapy, but he was trained in Reichian therapy.  Bodywork does play an important role in Reich's ideas. I mentioned Energized Meditation earlier in this thread.  It uses some movements inspired by Reich as a preliminary practice to meditation, which I have found extremely effective on more than one level. 


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @katrice

Do I remember that you're a fan of RAW?

 

You honestly think that Leary and Wilson were Buddhas? 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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katrice
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Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

You honestly think that Leary and Wilson were Buddhas? 

I said nothing implying that I did.

I just asked because I found it odd your having such seeming contempt for psychedelic therapy in light of Wilson's more positive opinion of it.  

Personally, I have no problems with the idea myself, but I see psychedelics as a tool, and don't see them as necessarily superior to other ways of altering consciousness for magickal or psychological purposes. 


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