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Indulgence and transgression in magickal practice

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katrice
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Posted by: @christibrany

The question is and that's the tough part, is how much of that is your Ego, lying to you, indulging in what you want, and saying that you are really moving deeper, and learning something, and not just indulging said Want/Ego, and how do you tell you are truly being 'magickal'? 

Rigorous analysis and skepticism, especially discounting anything that rings of wish-fulfillment, only trusting results that you literally cannot explain in any other way, and learning internal congruence signals on the physical, emotional, intellectual, and higher levels.  You learn to "feel" and also to feel when you're trying to ignore those feelings. 

And lots of practice and experience that tends to involve making a fool of yourself until you learn better.  


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christibrany
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@katrice 

Them's a lot of words!

How do you personally know that you can't trust results in any other way? 

In other words, what are you looking for that demarks your 'results' from your 'lust of lust' ? 


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katrice
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Posted by: @christibrany

@katrice 

Them's a lot of words!

How do you personally know that you can't trust results in any other way? 

In other words, what are you looking for that demarks your 'results' from your 'lust of lust' ? 

Ironically, it's a lot of words because I have trouble expressing it in words, because the base congruence signals are transrational.  I have the feeling and if I ignore it, I know that I'm choosing to ignore it.  It's difficult to express and sounds unconvincing or pretentious when I try to express it, and sounds like a copout when I say that I have trouble expressing it. 

But on the rational side, I'm also very hard on myself in terms of accepting results as validly caused by magick. I could justify more than I do, if I wanted to, but unless I have no way of convincing myself otherwise, it's either not a genuine result, or it's a result that may only apply to me.  I'm a firm believer in skepticism's importance in magickal practice. It helps to prevent me from becoming Yellow Brick Roadkill. 


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katrice
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Posted by: @daathielabaddon

@katrice It is like a finger pointing away to the moon. Don't concentrate on the finger or you will miss all that heavenly glory!

Exactly! Language is of the rational, and therefore has difficulty conveying the transrational. Description can only go so far in encompassing certain experiences. 

 

 


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Damien
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Posted by: @katrice
Posted by: @daathielabaddon

@katrice It is like a finger pointing away to the moon. Don't concentrate on the finger or you will miss all that heavenly glory!

Exactly! Language is of the rational, and therefore has difficulty conveying the transrational. Description can only go so far in encompassing certain experiences. 

 

 

Wittgenstein might argue that idea. The very ideas of the rational and the translational may be things that can only be approached, interacted with, and internalized by language. 


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katrice
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Posted by: @damien

Wittgenstein might argue that idea. The very ideas of the rational and the translational may be things that can only be approached, interacted with, and internalized by language. 

I'm sorry about the delay, it says that this response was from three days ago but I just got a notification today. 

 

I think you might have misread my response.  I typed transRational, not transLational. 


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Shiva
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Posted by: @katrice

I think you might have misread my response.  I typed transRational, not transLational. 

Trans, tranny, or the tending trend ... I see language definitions drifting ahead of their Lord, The Gordian Knot. The Georgian Not?

Damien offers a practical suggestion, prefaced by "may be."

Posted by: @damien

ideas ... may be things that can only be approached, interacted with, and internalized by language. 

"Rational" and "transrational," the down here and the out there modes of thought are already internalized. Perhaps you mean the interaction with the Void? I say/ask this as transrationalism, gnosis, intuition, and direct transmission all/each require a blank (Void) mind. So does quantum/scalar stuff.

Posted by: @katrice

it says that this response was from three days ago but I just got a notification today. 

It was not publickly "posted" this morning. So you didn't miss anything - it missed you (and me, too).


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katrice
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Posted by: @shiva

Trans, tranny, or the tending trend ... I see language definitions drifting ahead of their Lord, The Gordian Knot. The Georgian Not?

Damien offers a practical suggestion, prefaced by "may be."

The tranlational by its nature relates to language and symbol systems. As you know, the transrational can only be pointed at by these things but not encompassed by them as they are of the rational. 

It was not publickly "posted" this morning. So you didn't miss anything - it missed you (and me, too).

 

Thank you! That makes me feel better about my having not seen it before today.

 

ETA: something weird is definitely going on with the forums. I just got a notification about my own response. 

 

@lashtal?


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Shiva
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Posted by: @katrice

something weird is definitely going on with the forums.

"The sky is falling."


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Damien
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Posted by: @shiva

Damien offers a practical suggestion, prefaced by "may be."

 

I can't speak about such things with certainty. At least not with a straight face. 

Posted by: @shiva

"Rational" and "transrational," the down here and the out there modes of thought are already internalized. Perhaps you mean the interaction with the Void? I say/ask this as transrationalism, gnosis, intuition, and direct transmission all/each require a blank (Void) mind. So does quantum/scalar stuff.

Does any such experience, including a "blank mind," occur without language acquisition? And, if it could or has, how would we know? Katrice was referring to the limitations of language (description) in "encompassing certain experiences." I suggest the opposite. Certain of those experiences (and who knows where any of these lines are drawn?) can only be had by virtue of having learned language and learned descriptions. But, again, who's to say where the lines are drawn?


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katrice
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Posted by: @damien
 Certain of those experiences (and who knows where any of these lines are drawn?) can only be had by virtue of having learned language and learned descriptions. But, again, who's to say where the lines are drawn?

Language can point the way, but can't always convey direct experiences. One can certainly read instructions on how to meditate, for example, and one can read descriptions of the experience of attaining dyana, but reading about it does not convey the actual experience of attaining dhyana. 

 


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Shiva
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Posted by: @damien

I can't speak about such things with certainty. At least not with a straight face.

My own comments were spun off with a sense of uncertainty. That is, I commented in short form, but had no time to formulate one of those long posts with ifs, ands, and/or butts.

Posted by: @damien

a "blank mind,"

When I refer to "stopping the human mind," I refer to mental activity that relates to the separated self. Essentially this refers to Da'ath and downward ho. There is still mental activity above Da'ath, but it is certainly active above Da'ath, but in a non-personal manner. We call this "transrational" activity by the title, "The Universal Mind."

The personal mind is "blanked" into neutral with dhyana, but it can still go along for the (Universal) ride, as long as it stays in neutral, and it retains a memory (full or partial) of the experience.. And, yes, this is where symbols come in first, but then they are explained to ourselves, and possibly others, through lingo.

These are just words. Practically speaking, we can observe this simply by remembering some irrational, impossible, transrational, transcendent experience. Everybody here has had at least one, right?

Posted by: @katrice

Language can point the way, but can't always convey direct experiences.

Right. The experience is communicated in symbols. Then the language is used to interpret the symbol.

These symbols come to us from the (our) archetypal database. However, some folks reverse this and make the symbol as a yantra, mandala, statue, etc, and then they concentrate on it in order to produce a dhyana. This is all that is needed, but some folks support their concentration by uttering mantras or excerpts from holy grimoires.

These are practices. Once the aspirant gains some ease in the dhyana dance, they can omit the chant, and they can remove the mandala, and simply erect the symbol in their mind (dharana) and go ...

 


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katrice
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Posted by: @shiva

 

These are just words. Practically speaking, we can observe this simply by remembering some irrational, impossible, transrational, transcendent experience. Everybody here has had at least one, right?

I would like to think so. 😀 

 

One risk here is falling in to some version of the pre/trans fallacy, where either the prerational is mistaken for the transrational, or where the transrational is not believed in at all and is dismissed as the prerational. Understanding the nature of one's altered states of consciousness is essential. 

 

Some interpretations of the idea of learning only taking place at the feet of the guru, or of secrets that can only be transmitted from mouth to ear, don't necessarily refer to an actual physical guru, or to some idea of spoken words somehow not being able to be written, but to the experience itself. These are the true Mysteries,  which can only be conveyed experientially.  To attempt to translate these in to language cannot convey the full experience and at best gives an imperfect impression. "One does not touch the bloom which will bruise"

Right. The experience is communicated in symbols. Then the language is used to interpret the symbol.

Symbols, impressions, direct gnosis, etc.   It need not always be symbols.

 

 

 


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katrice
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Posted by: @daathielabaddon

@katrice

quote you cannot use butterfly language to communicate with caterpillars timothy leary 89 40 76

 

but it's not just a matter of lack of shared experience base to relate to, it's also a matter of language lacking the ability to convey certain experiences. The limits of the rational itself.


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