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14/01/2015 4:54 pm  

Following from a thread on another post I want to discuss whether there is a difference between magical initiation and psychotherapy.  I thought it would be informative to reproduce the views of esteemed therapist and initiate, Israel Regardie.  In  Regardie's bio of Crowley, The eye in the triangle there is a chapter devoted to Crowley's ceremonial initiations when he was a young man in the G.D. and elsewhere.  "Even for the cynical and the hardboiled it is a moving experience" he says.    Regardie discusses the various ceremonial activities and paraphenelia used during these rites and says that "despite the fact that the whole of this intricate symbolism can hardly be realized at the time of the initiation, its intrinsic value as a body of suggestion is such that unconsciously it is perceived to function as a catalytic agent."

He proposed that Jungian archetypes would've been ceremonially activated and he (Crowley) would've been "in uproar."  He  states that in such ceremonies "one is moved in ways that one hardly understands.  Too much is going on - within as well as without."  On this subject Regardie talks a lot about "the Light"  and seeing symbols "in spirit vision" during the ceremony.  In fact, in describing the latter A A initiations  he states that "were one sufficiently  clairvoyant" he would be able to see "the eye in the triangle" glowing in the field of the candidate." 

Later in the chapter (entitled Initiation by the way) Regardie attests to Crowley's statement that every aspirant undergoing  a "successful initiation"  is "assailed by the complexes that have corrupted him" and, as in successful psychotherapy he must be "consumed by anxiety."  He makes reference to the solve coagula formula thereof and "higher types of consciousness" citing the writings of Jung. 


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Tao
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15/01/2015 8:49 pm  

Psychotherapy is a method of healing mental health problems. Magical initiation is a method of creating problems in the psyche, the solving of which leads one to self-knowledge. Regardie insisted that anyone seeking initiation should have already undergone psychotherapy in order to heal any latent issues before re-stirring the pot with magic.


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Anonymous
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15/01/2015 10:24 pm  
"Tao" wrote:
Psychotherapy is a method of healing mental health problems. Magical initiation is a method of creating problems in the psyche, the solving of which leads one to self-knowledge..

But the aim of psychotherapy is also "self knowledge" a revelation and a confrontation of hidden (hide-ous) emotional reactions.  How can you try to create a dichotomy?  Therapists espouse the benefits of meditation and similarly magical orders recommend it for their members.  Self-knowledge is self knowledge.  Any psychiatrist is trying to aid their patient to achieve "the art and science of causing changes to occur in (their) consciousness." 


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16/01/2015 1:10 pm  

I found that the best and most practical  parts of my  “magical” initiation were gleaned from psychotherapy. Of course, these therapies were developed over time possibly from magical origins.
But if one is hungry one needs food. If you were starving and the chef asked for your preference in sauce, you would most likely see in an instant the stupidity of humanity.


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Tao
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16/01/2015 9:23 pm  
"david" wrote:
But the aim of psychotherapy is also "self knowledge" a revelation and a confrontation of hidden (hide-ous) emotional reactions.

That would depend entirely on the type of therapy.

How can you try to create a dichotomy?

 
I'm not trying to create anything. You posed a question that assumed a dichotomy and asked if it was legitimate. I confirm that it is legitimate on the basis of intent. Psychotherapy's intent is to heal illness. Initiation's intent is to encourage evolution.

Therapists espouse the benefits of meditation and similarly magical orders recommend it for their members.

 
Some do, some don't. Again, it depends on the type of therapy and/or the foundations of the order. Regardie's requirement, noted above, was aimed at individuals prior to initiation, not initiated members of an order. His intention was that all mental health problems should be sufficiently healed before one engages in the practice of magical initiation.

Self-knowledge is self knowledge.

 
Thanks Aristotle. However, the converse is not necessarily true: self knowledge is not always Self-knowledge.

Any psychiatrist is trying to aid their patient to achieve "the art and science of causing changes to occur in (their) consciousness."

Possibly. But not every sort of change and not every sort of consciousness. Psychotherapy, definitionally, is focused on solving mental health problems. One might defend the notion that psychotherapy is a subset of magic, but one couldn't support their identity. At the most basic level, psychotherapy requires at least one outside observer to act as analyst and therapist; magic can be, and often is, performed alone.


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Anonymous
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17/01/2015 1:28 am  
"Tao" wrote:
At the most basic level, psychotherapy requires at least one outside observer to act as analyst and therapist; magic can be, and often is, performed alone.

Didn't Crowley insist that the student finds a guru of sorts?  Psychotherapy can't be performed alone?  Patients (for want of a better term) are meant to complete the course of "treatment" then it's up to them to go away and apply the lessons learnt therein by themselves for themselves.

"Tao" wrote:
"david" wrote:
But the aim of psychotherapy is also "self knowledge" a revelation and a confrontation of hidden (hide-ous) emotional reactions.

That would depend entirely on the type of therapy.

There are different types?  The aim is the same whatever the method.  You seem to be missing that point.

"Tao" wrote:

How can you try to create a dichotomy?

 
I'm not trying to create anything. You posed a question that assumed a dichotomy and asked if it was legitimate. I confirm that it is legitimate on the basis of intent. Psychotherapy's intent is to heal illness. Initiation's intent is to encourage evolution.

Encourage evolution? I'm not with you.  When you say "evolution" you mean human progression as a counteractive strategy against any arrested development in the psyche?  Self-induced arrested development that is.  The occult is supposed to be about lifting the shutters / the screen that we use to fudge and distort reality, but most "occultists" seem to be adept at screening and hiding reality more fully from themselves and more often than not  terms like "initiation" or "evolution" or (your capitalized "S" version of) "Self knowledge" just become  buzzwords that encourage such self-entanglement in delusion.

"Tao" wrote:

Therapists espouse the benefits of meditation and similarly magical orders recommend it for their members.

 
Some do, some don't. Again, it depends on the type of therapy and/or the foundations of the order. Regardie's requirement, noted above, was aimed at individuals prior to initiation, not initiated members of an order. His intention was that all

He did and he echoes Crowley's statement that the Great Work is "the raising of the whole man to the power of infinity" which imo is, in turn, echoed in Dr Leary's "set, setting and dosage,"  However Crowley boasted about healing Norman Mudd's depression at Cefalu and he insisted that his yoga could calm the nerves.  Interesting that as the psychiatric establishment also makes the same claims.  In fact the academic and expert on Buddhism, Alan  Watts said that Crowley just aspired to be some sort of Hermetic healer.

Crowley talked  about providing solutions for "misery" and if I had a dollar for the amount of times that Dr Jung was quoted on occult forums I'd be very wealthy.  Dr Jung, psychiatrist and healer.  Why is that?  I also heard that Jung literally performed divinations with patients but I can't confirm that with evidence. Furthermore you know that pathology means "suffering" which sheds light on what "psychopathology" is.  This is what Crowley says about suffering, self-knowledge and True will in the intro to MITAP;  "Anyone who is forced from his own course, either through not understanding himself, or through external opposition, comes into conflict with the order of the Universe, and suffers accordingly."   and A Man whose conscious will is at odds with his True Will is wasting his strength. He cannot hope to influence his environment efficiently

Every individual is essentially sufficient to himself. But he is unsatisfactory to himself until he has established himself in his right relation with the universe.  (Illustration: A microscope, however perfect, is useless in the hands of savages. A poet, however sublime, must impose himself upon his generation if he is to enjoy (and even to understand) himself, as theoretically should be the case.)

and

Magick is the Science of understanding oneself and one's conditions. It is the Art of applying that understanding in action.

"Tao" wrote:

Self-knowledge is self knowledge.

 
Thanks Aristotle. However, the converse is not necessarily true: self knowledge is not always Self-knowledge.

With all due respect you're not making sense with that statement.  See above for clarifications.

"Tao" wrote:
.One might defend the notion that psychotherapy is a subset of magic

Yes the mystery schools are ancient and "psychotherapy" is a modern take on that.  Occult just means "hidden" i.e. hidden from conscious-ness as repressed feelings are.  Health is referred to in the Egyptian Book of the dead; praise unto Ra, the lord of heaven, the Prince, Life, Health, and Strength, the Creator of the gods and consider this from Liber Al ;"We have nothing with the outcast and the unfit: let them die in their misery. For they feel not"

Replace the word "magick" with the word "psychotherapy" in the following sentences from MITAP and pay particular attention to a concept of "shame/screening emotions" used by modern therapists   

He must behold his soul in all its awful nakedness, he must not fear to look on that appalling actuality. He must discard the gaudy garments with which his shame has screened him; he must accept the fact that nothing can make him anything but what he is. He may lie to himself, drug himself, hide himself; but he is always there. will teach him that his mind is playing him traitor.......  will show him the beauty and majesty of the self which he has tried to suppress and disguise.  Having discovered his identity, he will soon perceive his purpose

In fact as you probably know, Crowley condensed his definition of initiation in one of his poem/holy books named Liber Tzaddi but what does it reveal?  Again I've introduced the word "psychotherapy" where applicable for purposes of this discussion;   

In the name of , Amen.
I fly and I alight as an hawk: of mother-of-emerald are my mighty-sweeping wings.
swoop(s ) down upon the black earth; and it gladdens into green at coming.
Children of Earth! rejoice! rejoice exceedingly; for your salvation is at hand.
The end of sorrow is come; will ravish you away into mine unutterable joy.
will kiss you, and bring you to the bridal: (It) will spread a feast before you in the house of happiness.
(It) am not come to rebuke you, or to enslave you.
am come against sorrow, against weariness, against them that seek to enslave you.

I have hidden myself beneath a mask: I am a black and terrible .
With courage conquering fear shall ye approach : ye shall lay down your heads upon mine altar, expecting the sweep of the sword.
But the first kiss of love shall be radiant on your lips; and all darkness and terror shall turn to light and joy.
Only those who fear shall fail. Those who have bent their backs to the yoke of slavery until they can no longer stand upright; them will I despise.
But you who have defied the law; you who have conquered by subtlety or force; you will I take unto me, even I will take you unto me.
I ask you to sacrifice nothing at mine altar; I am the who giveth all.
Only if ye are sorrowful, or weary, or angry, or discomforted; then ye may know that ye have lost the
My are proud and beautiful; they are strong and swift; they rule their way like mighty conquerors.
The weak, the timid, the imperfect, the cowardly, the poor, the tearful—these are mine enemies, and come ( s) to destroy them.
This also is compassion: an end to the sickness of earth. A rooting-out of the weeds: a watering of the flowers.


There you have it.  There's nothing mystical about initiation according to Crowley it's an entirely mundane process of overcoming timidity (maladjustment), anger tantrums, depression (described as "sorrow") and stress(described as "slavery" and "discomfort"/"imperfection.")


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jamie barter
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17/01/2015 12:44 pm  
"david" wrote:
Following from a thread on another post I want to discuss whether there is a difference between magical initiation and psychotherapy.

The answer to the question is clearly yes, as they are different terms used to describe the activation of different natural processes in the psyche.  It would be more precise to ask “What is the difference” or “By how much do they differ”? 

"david" wrote:
In Regardie's bio of Crowley, The eye in the triangle there is a chapter devoted to Crowley's ceremonial initiations when he was a young man in the G.D. and elsewhere.  "Even for the cynical and the hardboiled it is a moving experience" he says.    Regardie discusses the various ceremonial activities and paraphenelia used during these rites and says that "despite the fact that the whole of this intricate symbolism can hardly be realized at the time of the initiation, its intrinsic value as a body of suggestion is such that unconsciously it is perceived to function as a catalytic agent."

Certainly Israel Regardie advises the aspiring magician to undertake a regimen of psychotherapeutic practice preparatory to ‘serious’ magickal work – and he specifically advocates a type of Reichian or neo-Reichian (vegeto-)therapy having as its basis the tribulation or dissolving of “character armour” in the individual which has accreted & built up with the day-to-day stresses of everyday living in contemporary (urban) society.

Reich’s main ‘heirs’ as far as this sort of biodynamic work is concerned are Alexander Lowen and Gerda Boyesen (it was in fact with the latter’s field of application:

www.biodynamic.org/

that I was involved myself) and I can vouch for the efficacy of its methods personally.  For five years (starting at around the same time that I pledged my A.'. A.'. Oath as a Probationer) I regularly underwent biodynamic, 'encapsulation' and ‘deep draining’ massage sessions etc with a therapist and did (do) not consider a single moment of them to be time wasted, so much so that I find it ideally now only requires a ‘top up’ of maybe once or twice a year. 

"david" wrote:
He proposed that Jungian archetypes would've been ceremonially activated and he (Crowley) would've been "in uproar."  He  states that in such ceremonies "one is moved in ways that one hardly understands.  Too much is going on - within as well as without."  On this subject Regardie talks a lot about "the Light"  and seeing symbols "in spirit vision" during the ceremony.

The stimulation of archetypes through magickal initiation acts as a catalyst to get things moving and to speed up the individual’s karma & psychotherapy is a highly effective means of dealing with the “complexes” which are stirred up as a result and in line with realizing the aphorism Gnothi Seayton or "Know Thyself", as Tao has effectively intimated.

"david" wrote:
In fact, in describing the latter A A initiations  he states that "were one sufficiently  clairvoyant" he would be able to see "the eye in the triangle" glowing in the field of the candidate."

You really mean “G D” initiations, I think – those belonging to the First Order.  There were no formal initiations as such relating to the Second Order of Adepts (the R.R. et A.C.) nor with the Third Order (the A A or Silver Star proper).

Also, some people would see the Eye in the Triangle, but others might see different archetypal symbols altogether – it would depend on the tendencies of the individual concerned, and differ accordingly.

"david" wrote:
Later in the chapter (entitled Initiation by the way) Regardie attests to Crowley's statement that every aspirant undergoing  a "successful initiation"  is "assailed by the complexes that have corrupted him" and, as in successful psychotherapy he must be "consumed by anxiety."  He makes reference to the solve coagula formula thereof and "higher types of consciousness" citing the writings of Jung.

It is in fact the work of the aspiring Adept to balance out the constituents of their five Elements or Tatvas within the personality, as represented by the lower Sephiroth, reaching its apotheosis in the achievement of Adeptus Minor Within.  Suiotably prepared, s/he is then ready for the transpersonal engagement with the KCHGA which in The Book of the Heart Girt With a Serpent Crowley personifies as the bridegroom awaiting the would-be Adept’s bride:

30.  I came to the house of the Beloved, and the wine was like fire that flieth with green wings through the world of waters.

31.  I felt the red lips of nature and the black lips of perfection.  Like sisters they fondled me their little brother; they decked me out as a bride; they mounted me for Thy bridal chamber.

32.  They fled away at Thy coming; I was alone before Thee.

(from Liber Cordis Cincte Serpente sub figura LXV IV: 30-32)[/align:2bfx0lnc]

Norma N Joy Conquest


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Tao
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17/01/2015 5:22 pm  

There you have it.  There's nothing mystical about initiation according to Crowley it's an entirely mundane process of overcoming timidity (maladjustment), anger tantrums, depression (described as "sorrow") and stress(described as "slavery" and "discomfort"/"imperfection.")

Ah, I see. So you weren't actually asking a question with this post, you were laying the bait for something about which you had already formulated an answer and wanted to argue. You post a few loosely strung together quotes to entice the fish and then, once you felt a nibble, you gave it a little tug... then another... And then you lay down the assumed smackdown with a long list of barely coherent arguments, none of which follow, and few of which make any real sense.

This is generally known as trolling.

So, to keep things on topic, a psychological evaluation:

http://m.psychologytoday.com/blog/your-online-secrets/201409/internet-trolls-are-narcissists-psychopaths-and-sadists


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Anonymous
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17/01/2015 11:10 pm  
"Tao" wrote:

There you have it.  There's nothing mystical about initiation according to Crowley it's an entirely mundane process of overcoming timidity (maladjustment), anger tantrums, depression (described as "sorrow") and stress(described as "slavery" and "discomfort"/"imperfection.")

Ah, I see. So you weren't actually asking a question with this post, you were laying the bait for something about which you had already formulated an answer and wanted to argue. You post a few loosely strung together quotes to entice the fish and then, once you felt a nibble, you gave it a little tug... then another... And then you lay down the assumed smackdown with a long list of barely coherent arguments, none of which follow, and few of which make any real sense.

This is generally known as trolling.

So, to keep things on topic, a psychological evaluation:

http://m.psychologytoday.com/blog/your-online-secrets/201409/internet-trolls-are-narcissists-psychopaths-and-sadists

I think that's a bit of a harsh cariacture  and sweeping.  Is it so bad to ask a question from the perspective of being biased (for want of a better term) in one direction?  It looks like you don't want to address Crowley's quotations that I pasted as part of my proposal that initiation strongly looks like psychotherapy.  If you'd like to let me know how my argument is weak maybe we can have a conversation.  In fact perhaps you may sway my opinion but your reply looked pretty reactive which sort of suggests that you don't like having your views challenged whereas I am genuinely open to having my views challenged.


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newneubergOuch2
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18/01/2015 5:32 am  

I found Tao's post to be accurate, sorry. It does look like a trap rather than a genuine query.
With that said i find myself reluctant to contribute fully.

I started my professional training in the therapeutic world (and worked with/ alongside counsellors, psychotherapists  and psychologists for many years) and that coincided with my beginning Magical studies,.
I found many overlaps most certainly over the years, and found the practitioners of both had similar interests the higher up the food chain i went, but in the end with all their similarities  I found they were quite different beasts in their approaches and methods.

Counseling- who am i and where am i going?
Pyschotheraphy - who am i, where am i going and where have i come from?
Psychologists (not psychiatrists)- general diagnosis, and depending on their area of work also encompassing psychotherapeutic work.
Magick/k- storming the gates of heaven.
'The main aim of Magick is the uniting of the lower with the higher -or union with God'-AC (paraphrased).
Assagoli's work is probably somewhat near in its approach, as is Jungs individuation - but with a larger encompassing vision.
Conscious/unconscious/superconsciousness.

I also agree with Regardie. It is a great way to sort out the inner world as magicians often forget to know thyself and fall prey to all sorts illusions concerning themselves, and are then content to focus on 'causing change to occur' only in the world around themselves. Often chasing windmills in the process.


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18/01/2015 11:47 am  
"jamie barter" wrote:
The answer to the question is clearly yes, as they are different terms used to describe the activation of different natural processes in the psyche.  It would be more precise to ask “What is the difference” or “By how much do they differ”? 

Good point Jamie. 

"jamie barter" wrote:
[Certainly Israel Regardie advises the aspiring magician to undertake a regimen of psychotherapeutic practice preparatory to ‘serious’ magickal work –

so maybe we could define initiation as an  "advanced" form of psychotherapy (of the unlicensed variety)?

"jamie barter" wrote:
– and he specifically advocates a type of Reichian or neo-Reichian (vegeto-)therapy having as its basis the tribulation or dissolving of “character armour” in the individual which has accreted & built up with the day-to-day stresses of everyday living in contemporary (urban) society.

I was interested in this and I now view "chakra- unblocking" as achieving the same  aim as Reich's massage based vegetotherapy.  There's a great book on this explaining how "character armour" and "muscular armour"  can be dissolved and expelled by raja yoga and chakra work written by an apparently famous fantasy novelist  ; http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Inward-Revolution-Storm-Constantine/dp/0751519391

Then again I think it's individual inclinations in thee matters as what is "armour"?  It's an unconsciously blocked emotional expression which is stuck in the mind and simultaneously in the muscles.  I guesse that was Reich's individual take on therapy
to focus more on the muscles but a conventional therapist is trying to un- repress those stored emotional reactions also.

"jamie barter" wrote:
that I was involved myself) and I can vouch for the efficacy of its methods personally.  For five years (starting at around the same time that I pledged my A.'. A.'. Oath as a Probationer) I regularly underwent biodynamic, 'encapsulation' and ‘deep draining’ massage sessions etc with a therapist and did (do) not consider a single moment of them to be time wasted, so much so that I find it ideally now only requires a ‘top up’ of maybe once or twice a year. 

I had one reiki session and when she "pushed the energy" upwards through my feet to out of the top of my head she said that she had never had a client who was so unblocked as myself.  Obviously cynics (the armoured ?  lol)  would say that this could've been ego- flattering business acumen but if not then I attribute that to my own personal "chakra unblocking" work a la the previously quoted book http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Inward-Revolution-Storm-Constantine/dp/0751519391

"jamie barter" wrote:
The stimulation of archetypes through magickal initiation acts as a catalyst to get things moving and to speed up the individual’s karma

"Speeding things up"; I guesse this is what magick and drugs do and this in terms of semantics is where we have formulated the difference between psychotherapy and "initiation".  Again it's the "set" aspect of "set, setting and dosage."  You're saying that "the Light" is brought into descent into the "soul" but if there is disequilibrium within the psyche ("armouring") then it's of no concern for "the Light" as it will blindly storm on energizing that which it has been called to energize?  In that case "initiation" is not psychotherapy at all but is a neutral "energy raising."

You use the term "karma."  Karma as in our history of emotional "armouring" i.e. emotional-muscular armouring?  Parental withdrawal of affection as a response to an emotional expression will armour a child.  Yes I guesse karma is a suitable way of categorizing that history. 

"jamie barter" wrote:
It is in fact the work of the aspiring Adept to balance out the constituents of their five Elements or Tatvas within the personality, as represented by the lower Sephiroth, reaching its apotheosis in the achievement of Adeptus Minor Within.  Suiotably prepared, s/he is then ready for the transpersonal engagement with the KCHGA which in The Book of the Heart Girt With a Serpent Crowley personifies as the bridegroom awaiting the would-be Adept’s bride:

30.  I came to the house of the Beloved, and the wine was like fire that flieth with green wings through the world of waters.

31.  I felt the red lips of nature and the black lips of perfection.  Like sisters they fondled me their little brother; they decked me out as a bride; they mounted me for Thy bridal chamber.

32.  They fled away at Thy coming; I was alone before Thee.

(from Liber Cordis Cincte Serpente sub figura LXV IV: 30-32)[/align:6kwlj0e5]

Norma N Joy Conquest

These elemental stages are they reflective of the psychologist's "stages of development"?  In other words is the work therein designed to be a tying up of loose ends of previously unlearned lessons from those childhood-adolescent stages?


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18/01/2015 11:58 am  
"newneubergOuch2" wrote:
I found Tao's post to be accurate, sorry. It does look like a trap rather than a genuine query.
With that said i find myself reluctant to contribute fully.
.

I don't want to dwell on negatives.  I found myself making a conclusion as new ideas came to me.  I ask you to analyse my edited version of Liber Tzaddi and see what you think.

 

"newneubergOuch2" wrote:
I started my professional training in the therapeutic world (and worked with/ alongside counsellors, psychotherapists  and psychologists for many years) and that coincided with my beginning Magical studies,.
I found many overlaps most certainly over the years, and found the practitioners of both had similar interests the higher up the food chain i went, but in the end with all their similarities  I found they were quite different beasts in their approaches and methods.

Counseling- who am i and where am i going?
Pyschotheraphy - who am i, where am i going and where have i come from?
Psychologists (not psychiatrists)- general diagnosis, and depending on their area of work also encompassing psychotherapeutic work.
Magick/k- storming the gates of heaven.
'The main aim of Magick is the uniting of the lower with the higher -or union with God'-AC (paraphrased).
Assagoli's work is probably somewhat near in its approach, as is Jungs individuation - but with a larger encompassing vision.
Conscious/unconscious/superconsciousness.

I also agree with Regardie. It is a great way to sort out the inner world as magicians often forget to know thyself and fall prey to all sorts illusions concerning themselves, and are then content to focus on 'causing change to occur' only in the world around themselves. Often chasing windmills in the process.

Brilliant.  Thanks. It does come as a revelation for those kids who realize that magick  is in fact "“the art of causing changes in consciousness in conformity with the Will" and it is not about becoming "a wizard " with super powers.


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Anonymous
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18/01/2015 12:20 pm  

In terms of magickal action and therapy there are those who argue that e.g. evocation is nothing *but* ritualized exploration of the unconscious.  Let's say I set up a business venture and I want lots of customers so I take a wealth-generating "spirit" and evoke it into a triangle I imagine it is there responding to my requests.  I then give it my order and banish it. 

What did I really do here?  I played out a fantasy which allowed me to face my inadequacies and fears over getting out there in the real world and putting "energy" into finding customers.  In short I faced one of my own "hang ups" so maybe I was taught not to be pushy as a child and I falsely attributed sales-activity as a shameful antisocial act.  The ceremony may've allowed me to unrepress that shame and in effect face one of my "demons." 


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18/01/2015 4:00 pm  
"Tao" wrote:
Psychotherapy is a method of healing mental health problems. Magical initiation is a method of creating problems in the psyche, the solving of which leads one to self-knowledge. Regardie insisted that anyone seeking initiation should have already undergone psychotherapy in order to heal any latent issues before re-stirring the pot with magic.

The only aim of psychoanalysis/psychotherapy is to bring the subconscious/unconscious to surface, by trying to make it fully conscious of the whole content of those lower depths of the being that can properly be called the 'sub-conscious'; moreover, the individual concerned is already psychologically weak by definition, for if he were otherwise he would experience no need to resort to treatment of this description. In contrast to the initiatory and magical fraternities of the East and Western magical traditions, the candidate is required to be mentally and even physically healthy to begin the practice in the first place or to even start the Great Work.

0. Learn first — Oh thou who aspirest unto our ancient Order! — that Equilibrium is the basis of the Work. If thou thyself hast not a sure foundation, whereon wilt thou stand to direct the forces of Nature Worship and neglect not, the physical body which is thy temporary connection with the outer and material world. Therefore let thy mental Equilibrium be above disturbance by material events; strengthen and control the animal passions, discipline the emotions and the reason, nourish the Higher Aspirations.
Do good unto others for its own sake, not for reward, not for gratitude from them, not for sympathy. If thou art generous, thou wilt not long for thine ears to be tickled by expressions of gratitude.
Remember that unbalanced force is evil; that unbalanced severity is but cruelty and oppression; but that also unbalanced mercy is but weakness which would allow and abet Evil. Act passionately; think rationally; be Thyself.

- Liber Libræ

Some of the initiatic traditions such as yoga in the proper sense of the word when defined in terms of pscyhoanalytic interpretation degrade the whole tradition to a level of mere physical exercise of breathing, stretching and getting all cozy while laying on your bed.

Most of the magical/yogic traditions are in no way comparable to psychic or psychoanalythical therapy and those initiatic traditions maintain their candidates for the most of the time to be perfectly balanced as possible if the promised 'development' or 'great work' can even begin to take place.

The only link between magick and psychotherapy is that the latter explores the symbols that could be considered malefic, illusory and equated with sorcery in the light of hermetic/magickal tradition.

Let the Illusion of the World pass over thee, unheeded, as thou goest from the Midnight to the Morning.

The Moon, partaking as she does of the highest and the lowest, and filling all the space between, is the most universal of the Planets. In her higher aspect, she occupies the place of the Link between the human and divine, as shown in Atu II. In this Trump, her lowest avatar, she joins the earthy sphere of Netzach with Malkuth, the culmination in matter of all superior forms. This is the waning moon, the moon of witchcraft and abominable deeds. She is the poisoned darkness which is the condition of the rebirth of light.

This path is guarded by Tabu, She is uncleanliness and sorcery. Upon the hills are the black towers of nameless mystery, of horror and of fear. All prejudice, all superstition, dead tradition - and ancestral loathing, all combine to darken her face before the eyes of men. It needs unconquerable courage to begin to tread this path. Here is a weird, deceptive life. The fiery sense is baulked. The moon has no air. The knight upon this quest has to rely on the three lower senses: touch, taste and smell. [See the Book of Lies Cap.pß, Bortsch.] Such light as there may be is deadlier than darkness, and the silence is wounded by the howling of wild beasts.

To what god shall we appeal for aid? It is Anubis, the watcher in the twilight, the god that stands upon the threshold, the jackal god of Khem, who stands in double form between the Ways. At his feet, on watch, wait the jackals themselves, to devour the carcasses of those who have not seen Him, or who have not known His Name.

This is the threshold of life; this is the threshold of death. All is doubtful, all is mysterious, all is intoxicating. Not the benign, solar intoxication of Dionysus, but the dreadful madness of pernicious drugs; this is a drunkenness of sense, after the mind has been abolished by the venom of this Moon. This is that which is written of Abraham in the Book of the Beginning: “An horror of great darkness came upon him.” One is reminded of the mental echo of subconscious realization, of that supreme iniquity which mystics have constantly celebrated in their accounts of the Dark Night of the Soul. But the best men, the true men, do not consider the matter in such terms at all. Whatever horrors may afflict the soul, whatever abominations may excite the loathing of the heart, whatever terrors may assail the mind, the answer is the same at every stage: “How splendid is the Adventure!”

- Book of Thoth, ATU XVIII.

Authors such as Freud even go far as to compare taboo/totemism's sexual restrictions to the Oedipus complex, where the totem is an image of a forefather, who had expelled his sons from the "horde" he ruled, to prevent them from having intercourse with the women of the horde. It only achieves to touch the realms of Nephesch and Yesod/Foundation with no higher aspirations for rectification.


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Anonymous
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19/01/2015 11:28 am  
"ayino" wrote:
]
The only aim of psychoanalysis/psychotherapy is to bring the subconscious/unconscious to surface, by trying to make it fully conscious of the whole content

By "it" presumably you mean the conscious mind or self?

"ayino" wrote:
of those lower depths of the being that can properly be called the 'sub-conscious'; moreover, the individual concerned is already psychologically weak by definition, for if he were otherwise he would experience no need to resort to treatment of this description.

Not necessarily.  Perfectly normal-ish people who function ok in society see "shrinks" all the time particularly in America.  They may just want to be more healthy.  Even "shrinks" themselves attend.  It is said that one in four of us have some sort of mental health issue at some time in our lives.  The shame aspect is only going to be perpetuated with the attitude that it's "weak."  It's no more than an eye-test or a car- service.

"ayino" wrote:
In contrast to the initiatory and magical fraternities of the East and Western magical traditions, the candidate is required to be mentally and even physically healthy to begin the practice in the first place or to even start the Great Work.

Ideally yes but whose regulating?  How do you know if your superior in the order (or anyone else there for that matter) doesn't have "issues?"

.

Some of the initiatic traditions such as yoga in the proper sense of the word when defined in terms of pscyhoanalytic interpretation degrade the whole tradition to a level of mere physical exercise of breathing, stretching and getting all cozy while laying on your bed.

Most of the magical/yogic traditions are in no way comparable to psychic or psychoanalythical therapy and those initiatic traditions maintain their candidates for the most of the time to be perfectly balanced as possible if the promised 'development' or 'great work' can even begin to take place.

Your first paragraph about psychoanalytical; degradation is true.  Any disturbed person can practice yoga and not solve his issues it would be akin to him smoking pot now and again; temporary transitory relief but I think the strand of yoga we could call chakra-unblocking therapy (and self-analysis) would help someone a great deal.

Your second paragraph above about  "initiatic traditions" demanding balance carries a given assumption that everyone who initiates doesn't have issues such as depression, social anxiety, agrophobia, addiction or OCD.  I suppose that's up to our own discernment to work that one out. 


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Anonymous
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20/01/2015 12:02 pm  
"newneubergOuch2" wrote:
'The main aim of Magick is the uniting of the lower with the higher -or union with God'-AC (paraphrased).
Assagoli's work is probably somewhat near in its approach, as is Jungs individuation - but with a larger encompassing vision.
Conscious/unconscious/superconsciousness. .

This "superconsciousness" seems to be ill-defined.  Is it some sort of transcendental aspect of the therapeutic process?

Furthermore in terms of repression and True Will I have found some relevant quotes from AC;
ALTERA DE VIA NATURAE.  (Liber Aleph)

Sayest thou (methinks) that here is a great Riddle, since by Reason of much Repression thou hast lost the Knowledge of thine original Nature?

......................Give Ear, give Ear attentively; the Will is not lost; though it be buried beneath a life-old midden of Repressions, for it persisteth vital within thee (is it not the true Motion of thine inmost Being?)

Here Crowley describes the revelation of Will as the unburdening of repressions which has a parallel in therapy.  The emotional functions are affection, sadness, cruelty, anger, need for affection, sex, anxiety, courage and jealousy.  We all have these responses but families have a "taboo" about the expression of some of these and the child/individual may inhibit their expression and shove them into the murky, dark and terrible garbage-can of the unconscious and of course this is commonly know as "repression."  How does this relate to initiation though?  As follows;


"The aspirant on the threshold of Initiation finds himself assailed by the 'complexes' which have corrupted him, their externalisation excruciating him, and his agonised reluctance to their elimination plunging him into such ordeals that he seems (both to himself and to others) to have turned from a noble and upright man into an unutterable scoundrel."
- Aleister Crowley.

What are these "complexes" that assail the aspirant who nears initiation?  From the wiki;  Jung described a "complex" as a 'node' in the unconscious; it may be imagined as a knot of unconscious feelings and beliefs, detectable indirectly, through behavior that is puzzling or hard to account for[/i] i.e. emotions shoved into the garbage can of the unconscious impact upon the individual and induce irrational behaviour and the like.  In effect then Crowley is describing initiation as, if you like, the induction of a brave opening of the lid of the garbage can which reveals the (above) emotional expressions that we have kept shoved down all our lives therefore in that context yes therapy and initiation are basically the same process..       


"The sincere student will discover, behind the symbolic technicalities of this book, a practical method of making himself a Magician. The processes described will enable him to discriminate between what he actually is, and what he has fondly imagined himself to be. He must behold his soul in all its awful nakedness, he must not fear to look on that appalling actuality. He must discard the gaudy garments with which his shame has screened him; he must accept the fact that nothing can make him anything by what he is. He may lie to himself, drug himself, hide himself; but he is always there. Magick will teach him that his mind is playing him traitor
." - Magick in Theory and Practice


The processes described will enable him to discriminate between what he actually is, and what he has fondly imagined himself to be
  Why does he fondly imagine himself to be something other than that which he actually is?  Because it's too painful to discriminate what he actually is as it would mean uncovering the taboo emotions within his family system and his parents' family system so on. This is why the Thelemite is encouraged to expose himself to that which he would not ordinarily prefer to be exposed to as it stirs up the set attitudes (the "complexes") and that pressure and pain therein can, at times, force an "upright noble man" to appear to be "an unutterable scoundrel."   


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William Thirteen
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20/01/2015 1:15 pm  

thank the heavens you've come along to explain it all to us, david!


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jamie barter
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20/01/2015 1:55 pm  
"david" wrote:
"jamie barter" wrote:
Certainly Israel Regardie advises the aspiring magician to undertake a regimen of psychotherapeutic practice preparatory to ‘serious’ magickal work –

so maybe we could define initiation as an  "advanced" form of psychotherapy (of the unlicensed variety)?

This “maybe” doesn’t follow on in my opinion.  It’s a bit of a non sequitur.  They are two different techniques which are only congruent and compatible in terms of advancing the evolution or self-knowledge of the practitioner.

"david" wrote:
"jamie barter" wrote:
– and he specifically advocates a type of Reichian or neo-Reichian (vegeto-)therapy having as its basis the tribulation or dissolving of “character armour” in the individual which has accreted & built up with the day-to-day stresses of everyday living in contemporary (urban) society.

I was interested in this and I now view "chakra- unblocking" as achieving the same  aim as Reich's massage based vegetotherapy.

There could be an overlap there, although they are widely different systems applying to different depths of the psyche (I use the word in its widest sense)

"david" wrote:
Then again I think it's individual inclinations in thee matters as what is "armour"?  It's an unconsciously blocked emotional expression which is stuck in the mind and simultaneously in the muscles.  I guesse that was Reich's individual take on therapy to focus more on the muscles but a conventional therapist is trying to un- repress those stored emotional reactions also.

Both Reich and “conventional therapists” would view the same cause-and-effect process in operation with regard to blockage except that the conventional therapist might not accept trauma would be stored in the muscles.

"david" wrote:
I had one reiki session and when she "pushed the energy" upwards through my feet to out of the top of my head she said that she had never had a client who was so unblocked as myself.

From what I have come across, the practice of reiki is not incompatible with this aspect (tribulating character armour).  Maybe those more experienced with it (a reiki master perhaps) could contribute further.

"david" wrote:
There's a great book on this explaining how "character armour" and "muscular armour" can be dissolved and expelled by raja yoga and chakra work written by an apparently famous fantasy novelist  ; http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Inward-Revolution-Storm-Constantine/dp/0751519391
[...] Obviously cynics (the armoured ?  lol)  would say that this could've been ego- flattering business acumen but if not then I attribute that to my own personal "chakra unblocking" work a la the previously quoted book http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Inward-Revolution-Storm-Constantine/dp/0751519391

Looks an interesting book – and a bargain at £0.01 (excluding p&p).  I must add it to my ever-increasing list of things to read through.

"david" wrote:
"jamie barter" wrote:
The stimulation of archetypes through magickal initiation acts as a catalyst to get things moving and to speed up the individual’s karma

"Speeding things up"; I guesse this is what magick and drugs do and this in terms of semantics is where we have formulated the difference between psychotherapy and "initiation".  Again it's the "set" aspect of "set, setting and dosage." You're saying that "the Light" is brought into descent into the "soul" but if there is disequilibrium within the psyche ("armouring") then it's of no concern for "the Light" as it will blindly storm on energizing that which it has been called to energize?  In that case "initiation" is not psychotherapy at all but is a neutral "energy raising."

I wasn’t saying that – you are putting words into my mouth! – but “having said that” I wouldn’t particularly disagree with the second part of your answer.

There is the obvious corollary of Liber AL III:38 (‘The light is mine; its rays consume me …’)

"david" wrote:
You use the term "karma."  Karma as in our history of emotional "armouring" i.e. emotional-muscular armouring?  Parental withdrawal of affection as a response to an emotional expression will armour a child.  Yes I guesse karma is a suitable way of categorizing that history.

Yes, that could apply to one aspect of karma.  Magickally speaking it might also incorporate “past lives therapy” as well (e.g., in terms of the magickal memory, through Liber Viarum Viae, Berashith, etc) but this won’t go down too well with the skeptics in whose company you "associate" and are presumably included? (!)

"david" wrote:
These elemental stages are they reflective of the psychologist's "stages of development"?

For one thing, there are more than one type of psychologist and in turn they will themselves have their own differing “stages of development” as you put it – it’s not as easy as being able to tie it down to one possible equivalence.  But the bottom line in both cases is Know Thyself. (Shirley!)

Also the Elemental stages correspond magickally to the G.D. tasks relating to the grades of the sephirah concerned from Malkuth to Tipherethah, whereas the psychotherapy work would not ‘compartmentalize’ or specialize or even advance in that manner but treat all of the constituents of the five elements in together.  So the simple answer to your question there is “no, they're not”.

"david" wrote:
In other words is the work therein designed to be a tying up of loose ends of previously unlearned lessons from those childhood-adolescent stages?

"It could be”, again as part of “knowing thyself” and clearing up karma.

"ayino" wrote:
"Tao" wrote:
Psychotherapy is a method of healing mental health problems. Magical initiation is a method of creating problems in the psyche, the solving of which leads one to self-knowledge. Regardie insisted that anyone seeking initiation should have already undergone psychotherapy in order to heal any latent issues before re-stirring the pot with magic.

The only aim of psychoanalysis/psychotherapy is to bring the subconscious/unconscious to surface, by trying to make it fully conscious of the whole content of those lower depths of the being that can properly be called the 'sub-conscious'; moreover, the individual concerned is already psychologically weak by definition, for if he were otherwise he would experience no need to resort to treatment of this description. In contrast to the initiatory and magical fraternities of the East and Western magical traditions, the candidate is required to be mentally and even physically healthy to begin the practice in the first place or to even start the Great Work.
[...] Most of the magical/yogic traditions are in no way comparable to psychic or psychoanalythical therapy and those initiatic traditions maintain their candidates for the most of the time to be perfectly balanced as possible if the promised 'development' or 'great work' can even begin to take place.

I disagree with that implication of weakness by definition.  For one thing, there is a whole world of difference between people who may have been referred to a therapist for problematic mental health issues and those who choose to self refer.  I attended the Gerda Boyesen Institute completely of my own free will and choice because I was aware, as I said before, that just everyday living can create character armour, and although at first I didn’t think there was much in the way of blockages I was surprised at just how deep, subtle & buried these can be, not only in myself but through discussion with many other “normal people” that I met there.  Also, nobody’s perfect – otherwise what would be the point in incarnating? – and there is always work to be done in unblocking & freeing bioenergy (- from a quick cursory look at the GBI website I noticed that they used to refer to the word “orgone” there but now seem to have omitted and replaced that in favour of the more neutral “bioenergy”) & thus in Knowing Thyself further.  I found vegetotherapy one of the most effective means of speeding up this process.  So I agree with david here:

"david" wrote:
Not necessarily.  Perfectly normal-ish people who function ok in society see "shrinks" all the time particularly in America.  They may just want to be more healthy.  Even "shrinks" themselves attend.  It is said that one in four of us have some sort of mental health issue at some time in our lives.  The shame aspect is only going to be perpetuated with the attitude that it's "weak."  It's no more than an eye-test or a car- service.

Also, I have had to deal with this myopic view of things before in having to explain and justify my actions and “defend myself” against similar inferences and knowing nudges and winks, as if I were on the verge of being a loony.  Which is sometimes a bit tiresome and would these perpetrators try it just the once for themselves.

"ayino" wrote:
The only link between magick and psychotherapy is that the latter explores the symbols that could be considered malefic, illusory and equated with sorcery in the light of hermetic/magickal tradition.

This does not make sense and is extraordinarily one-sided.  Please expand/ clarify.

"david" wrote:
"ayino" wrote:
The only aim of psychoanalysis/psychotherapy is to bring the subconscious/unconscious to surface, by trying to make it fully conscious of the whole content

By "it" presumably you mean the conscious mind or self?

My understanding of it here was that "it" referred to the bit "psychoanalysis/psychotherapy".

N Joy


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 Anonymous
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20/01/2015 4:46 pm  
"david" wrote:
Your second paragraph above about  "initiatic traditions" demanding balance carries a given assumption that everyone who initiates doesn't have issues such as depression, social anxiety, agrophobia, addiction or OCD.  I suppose that's up to our own discernment to work that one out.

I would in a same fashion also want to know what are the 'qualifications' for these psychoanalytic methods that are transmitted to the 'patient' in hopes of "spiritual realizations" or initiations.

Psychoanalysis as an invention is a very recent phenomenon: and one should concentrate on the source where psychoanalysts may obtain the authority to even 'communicate' such 'realizations' or whatever you may want to call it -

" Luke 6:39-42" wrote:
39. Then he spoke a parable to them, "Can the blind lead the blind? Shall they not both fall into a ditch?
40. The disciple is not above his master, but everyone who is perfect will be like his master.
41 Why do you look at the spec that is in your brother's eye, but do not perceive the log that is in your own eye?
42. Or how can you say to your brother, 'Brother, let me take out the spec that is in your eye,' when you yourself do not see the log that is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the spec that is in your brother's eye.

There is a similar parallel found in the Eleusinian mysteries with the whole "fall into the mire" -analogy. This 'mire' was symbolized as the road leading to Eleusis, and that those who fell into it were profane people who claimed initiation without having certain qualifications to transmit it. Some medieval european legends/folklore also echo the analogy, this one more so perhaps than the others: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pied_Piper_of_Hamelin

"jamie barter" wrote:
I disagree with that implication of weakness by definition.  For one thing, there is a whole world of difference between people who may have been referred to a therapist for problematic mental health issues and those who choose to self refer.

I am only interested in the transmission part of the whole deal, for this thread is proposing that initiation and psychotherapy are analogous methods. One is totally free to see any number of shrinks he wants and even pay for it, these people would be have been long out of jobs if it was not so.

I guess I am proposing these questions; who has 'psychoanalyzed' the psychoanalytist? From what source does he derive his authority? And by whom were they 'psychoanalyzed' themselves before that?
it is obviously impossible to give anyone anything what one does not possess oneself in the first place.

[From 1947 to 1953, Krishnamurti regularly attended talks given by Jiddu Krishnamurti in Madras, India, eventually beginning a direct dialogue with him in 1953.[note 4][5] U. G. Krishnamurti related that the two had almost daily discussions for a while, which he asserted were not providing satisfactory answers to his questions. Finally, their meetings came to a halt. He described part of the final discussion:
And then, towards the end, I insisted, "Come on, is there anything behind the abstractions you are throwing at me?" And that chappie said, "You have no way of knowing it for yourself". Finish – that was the end of our relationship, you see – "If I have no way of knowing it, you have no way of communicating it. What the hell are we doing? I've wasted seven years. Goodbye, I don't want to see you again". Then I walked out.[5]

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Shiva
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20/01/2015 7:21 pm  
"ayino" wrote:
I am only interested in the transmission part of the whole deal, for this thread is proposing that initiation and psychotherapy are analogous methods. One is totally free to see any number of shrinks he wants and even pay for it, these people would be have been long out of jobs if it was not so.

It is almost a common statement that "I underwent psychotherapy for "X number" of years. It didn't help me at all."

I guess I am proposing these questions; who has 'psychoanalyzed' the psychoanalytist?

Since neurotic/psychotic conditions are known to be contagious, it is commonly accepted that psychoanalytists, who are continuously exposed to such matters must routinely get shrunk themselves. Of course, this is just tradition, and perhaps common sense, but there is no law that says they have to comply.

From what source does he [she] derive his [her] authority?

The Civil, Licensing Board (whatever it's called in your locality).

And by whom were they 'psychoanalyzed' themselves before that?
it is obviously impossible to give anyone anything what one does not possess oneself in the first place.

That would depend on the school of thought and, more accurately, the individual. There is no standard. It's lke a Medical Doctor, or a Dentist, doesn't have to be medically or dentally treated in order to get a license.

[From 1947 to 1953, Krishnamurti regularly attended talks given by Jiddu Krishnamurti in Madras, India, eventually beginning a direct dialogue with him in 1953. U. G. Krishnamurti related that the two had almost daily discussions for a while, which he asserted were not providing satisfactory answers to his questions. Finally, their meetings came to a halt. He described part of the final discussion:
And then, towards the end, I insisted, "Come on, is there anything behind the abstractions you are throwing at me?" And that chappie said, "You have no way of knowing it for yourself". Finish – that was the end of our relationship, you see – "If I have no way of knowing it, you have no way of communicating it. What the hell are we doing? I've wasted seven years. Goodbye, I don't want to see you again". Then I walked out.

Haha 😉  "I did it for seven years and it didn't help me at all"

[/align:1soxu3yo]

Note: I have known a few psychiatrists (the kind who prescribe drugs). Most of them were the most maladjusted dudes I have ever know. Some were sane, but most were way out there.


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Tao
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20/01/2015 7:22 pm  
"david" wrote:
  If you'd like to let me know how my argument is weak maybe we can have a conversation.  In fact perhaps you may sway my opinion but your reply looked pretty reactive which sort of suggests that you don't like having your views challenged whereas I am genuinely open to having my views challenged.

Alright, david, you now have replies from seven individuals. Of those seven, at least two have some formal training in psychology and at least three have undergone formal magical initiation and have brought their experience and expertise to the table. Thus far, none of them agree with your assertion disguised as a question. Are you ready yet to have your opinion swayed? Because, thus far your replies have seemed pretty reactive which sort of suggests you're not open to having your views challenged by those more experienced in these matters than you are.

Reactively yours,
An Initiate


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20/01/2015 7:44 pm  
"jamie barter" wrote:
Also, I have had to deal with this myopic view of things before in having to explain and justify my actions and “defend myself” against similar inferences and knowing nudges and winks, as if I were on the verge of being a loony.  Which is sometimes a bit tiresome and would these perpetrators try it just the once for themselves.

Do not get me wrong, I certainly do respect and I am interested in some work done in the field of psychotherapy and psychology related to it. Especially those leaning to the experimental side of the whole deal where even agents such as psychedelics are administered in a controlled environment along with therapy. The problem I have is that the academia and literature related to this field of work tends to dry the whole thing up and take it all to a very dogmatic and even commercial direction. I still salute some true revolutionaries in this field of work, but even they tend to get shunned by their contemporaries in the academia.

"ayino" wrote:
it is obviously impossible to give anyone anything what one does not possess oneself in the first place.
"Shiva" wrote:
That would depend on the school of thought and, more accurately, the individual. There is no standard. It's lke a Medical Doctor, or a Dentist, doesn't have to be medically or dentally treated in order to get a license.

I have hard time believing that the dogmatic academia and its methods are hardly even a comparison to the technicality and time consuming work and study of things like ceremonial magic for example. Not alone the improvisation factor. These experiences don't tend to take place in a sterile environment in some shrink's office, but more likely to be triggered in a highly dramatic, ritualistic setting found in various religious traditions of east & west.

I still agree that some great work on the psychoanalytical field has already been done using experimental techniques like sessions using agents such as psychedelics, but these 'sittings' are still probably far behind from the likes of Dionysian mysteries.


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Anonymous
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20/01/2015 10:39 pm  
"jamie barter" wrote:
so maybe we could define initiation as an  "advanced" form of psychotherapy (of the unlicensed variety)?

This “maybe” doesn’t follow on in my opinion.  It’s a bit of a non sequitur.  They are two different techniques which are only congruent and compatible in terms of advancing the evolution or self-knowledge of the practitioner.

To be blunt the aim of initiation as described in my reply 15 sounds exactly like the aim of psychotherapy; the unburdening of repressions..

"jamie barter" wrote:
Both Reich and “conventional therapists” would view the same cause-and-effect process in operation with regard to blockage except that the conventional therapist might not accept trauma would be stored in the muscles.

Yes.

"jamie barter" wrote:
"Speeding things up"; I guesse this is what magick and drugs do and this in terms of semantics is where we have formulated the difference between psychotherapy and "initiation".  Again it's the "set" aspect of "set, setting and dosage." You're saying that "the Light" is brought into descent into the "soul" but if there is disequilibrium within the psyche ("armouring") then it's of no concern for "the Light" as it will blindly storm on energizing that which it has been called to energize?  In that case "initiation" is not psychotherapy at all but is a neutral "energy raising."

I wasn’t saying that – you are putting words into my mouth! –

You misunderstood I wasn't quoting you I was asking if you agreed with my views.

"jamie barter" wrote:
Yes, that could apply to one aspect of karma.  Magickally speaking it might also incorporate “past lives therapy” as well (e.g., in terms of the magickal memory, through Liber Viarum Viae, Berashith, etc) but this won’t go down too well with the skeptics in whose company you "associate" and are presumably included? (!)

Yes.

"jamie barter" wrote:
Also the Elemental stages correspond magickally to the G.D. tasks relating to the grades of the sephirah concerned from Malkuth to Tipherethah, whereas the psychotherapy work would not ‘compartmentalize’ or specialize or even advance in that manner but treat all of the constituents of the five elements in together.  So the simple answer to your question there is “no, they're not”.

Really?  They may well be inadvertently designed to do just that.  I'll have to chew on that one.


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Anonymous
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20/01/2015 10:58 pm  
"Tao" wrote:
"david" wrote:
  If you'd like to let me know how my argument is weak maybe we can have a conversation.  In fact perhaps you may sway my opinion but your reply looked pretty reactive which sort of suggests that you don't like having your views challenged whereas I am genuinely open to having my views challenged.

Alright, david, you now have replies from seven individuals. Of those seven, at least two have some formal training in psychology and at least three have undergone formal magical initiation and have brought their experience and expertise to the table. Thus far, none of them agree with your assertion disguised as a question. Are you ready yet to have your opinion swayed? Because, thus far your replies have seemed pretty reactive which sort of suggests you're not open to having your views challenged by those more experienced in these matters than you are.

Reactively yours,
An Initiate

I can't give you a yes as no one has yet to address my synthesis in Reply #15 where I bring in specific quotes from Crowley (himself) and his ideas about initiation and True Will and how they seemingly directly relate to the processes of psychotherapy.  If someone could dispute Reply #15  point by point with an explanation then I may be swayed. 


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Tao
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21/01/2015 2:35 am  
"david" wrote:
I can't give you a yes as no one has yet to address my synthesis in Reply #15 where I bring in specific quotes from Crowley (himself) and his ideas about initiation and True Will and how they seemingly directly relate to the processes of psychotherapy.  If someone could dispute Reply #15  point by point with an explanation then I may be swayed. 

Fine, I'll bite. I do this with much trepidation and hesitance.

"david" wrote:
"newneubergOuch2" wrote:
'The main aim of Magick is the uniting of the lower with the higher -or union with God'-AC (paraphrased).
Assagoli's work is probably somewhat near in its approach, as is Jungs individuation - but with a larger encompassing vision.
Conscious/unconscious/superconsciousness. .

This "superconsciousness" seems to be ill-defined.  Is it some sort of transcendental aspect of the therapeutic process?

It isn't a part of a therapeutic process as far as I'm aware. You're overlaying your presumption that the two processes (psychotherapy and magical initiation) are interchangeable. If you remove that veil from your eyes, you'll see that nnO2 is contrasting them by showing that the closest to a parallel he can find is Assagoli and Jung but that magic has a larger encompassing vision which posits three levels of consciousness rather than psychology's typical two. Extrapolating from what he writes (and without putting words into his mouth), this could be phrased: Psychotherapy and magical initiation are two distinct processes focusing on different parts of the psyche and with completely different goals. There is occasionally some overlap in technical language and specific techniques, and certain practitioners of one have also investigated the other in attempts to expand their understanding, but nevertheless the goals remain distinct.

"david" wrote:
Furthermore in terms of repression and True Will I have found some relevant quotes from AC;
ALTERA DE VIA NATURAE.  (Liber Aleph)

Sayest thou (methinks) that here is a great Riddle, since by Reason of much Repression thou hast lost the Knowledge of thine original Nature?

......................Give Ear, give Ear attentively; the Will is not lost; though it be buried beneath a life-old midden of Repressions, for it persisteth vital within thee (is it not the true Motion of thine inmost Being?)

Here Crowley describes the revelation of Will as the unburdening of repressions which has a parallel in therapy.  The emotional functions are affection, sadness, cruelty, anger, need for affection, sex, anxiety, courage and jealousy.  We all have these responses but families have a "taboo" about the expression of some of these and the child/individual may inhibit their expression and shove them into the murky, dark and terrible garbage-can of the unconscious and of course this is commonly know as "repression."  How does this relate to initiation though?

It doesn't, except in that the guiding force of one's life (one's Will, if you like) must be uncovered before one is able to follow it along the Path of Initiation.

"david" wrote:
How does this relate to initiation though?  As follows;


"The aspirant on the threshold of Initiation finds himself assailed by the 'complexes' which have corrupted him, their externalisation excruciating him, and his agonised reluctance to their elimination plunging him into such ordeals that he seems (both to himself and to others) to have turned from a noble and upright man into an unutterable scoundrel."
- Aleister Crowley.

As stated several times over the past few months, you really must do better at citing your sources david. I for one will not be wasting any more of my time tracking down origins via Google if you can't be bothered to cite a source.

So, from Magick in Theory and Practice ch. XX: "Of the Eucharist and of the Art of Alchemy", you have pulled a quote that describes the ordeals of an aspirant on the threshold of Initiation. What of it? To be "on the threshold" of Initiation posits a condition prior to Initiation. As I said above, reflecting Regardie's beliefs, psychotherapy can be undergone with benefit prior to Initiation in order to assist the aspirant in resolving any complexes that may be weighing down her psyche before she hits it with the blast that is magical Initiation. Further, if we extend your quote above into its context, Crowley is comparing the aspirant to the "First Matter" of the alchemical process which must go through a preliminary stage of blackening and putrefaction in the "Black Dragon" from which it emerges as the "Green Lion", ready to begin the actual process of alchemical purification and transmutation.

"david" wrote:
What are these "complexes" that assail the aspirant who nears initiation?  From the wiki;  Jung described a "complex" as a 'node' in the unconscious; it may be imagined as a knot of unconscious feelings and beliefs, detectable indirectly, through behavior that is puzzling or hard to account for[/i] i.e. emotions shoved into the garbage can of the unconscious impact upon the individual and induce irrational behaviour and the like.  In effect then Crowley is describing initiation as, if you like, the induction of a brave opening of the lid of the garbage can which reveals the (above) emotional expressions that we have kept shoved down all our lives therefore in that context yes therapy and initiation are basically the same process..       

You write it in your own words and yet you still fail to see through the veil: "What are these 'complexes' that assail the aspirant who nears initiation?"

To correct your conclusion: "In effect then Crowley is describing the threshold of initiation as, if you like, the induction of a brave opening of the lid of the garbage can which reveals the (above) emotional expressions that we have kept shoved down all our lives. Therefore in that context yes therapy and any work done at the threshold of initiation are basically the same process..       

"david" wrote:

"The sincere student will discover, behind the symbolic technicalities of this book, a practical method of making himself a Magician. The processes described will enable him to discriminate between what he actually is, and what he has fondly imagined himself to be. He must behold his soul in all its awful nakedness, he must not fear to look on that appalling actuality. He must discard the gaudy garments with which his shame has screened him; he must accept the fact that nothing can make him anything by what he is. He may lie to himself, drug himself, hide himself; but he is always there. Magick will teach him that his mind is playing him traitor
." - Magick in Theory and Practice


The processes described will enable him to discriminate between what he actually is, and what he has fondly imagined himself to be
  Why does he fondly imagine himself to be something other than that which he actually is?

 
If we knew the full answer to that question, we wouldn't be here.

Because it's too painful to discriminate what he actually is as it would mean uncovering the taboo emotions within his family system and his parents' family system so on.

That's the most basic layer. I can assure you there is much more to it than that.

This is why the Thelemite is encouraged to expose himself to that which he would not ordinarily prefer to be exposed to as it stirs up the set attitudes (the "complexes") and that pressure and pain therein can, at times, force an "upright noble man" to appear to be "an unutterable scoundrel."   

Yes indeed, those are all partial answers. Very partial.


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Azidonis
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21/01/2015 4:44 am  
"david" wrote:
Is there a difference between magical initiation and psychotherapy?

Yes.


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jamie barter
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21/01/2015 12:56 pm  
"david" wrote:
"jamie barter" wrote:
"so maybe we could define initiation as an "advanced" form of psychotherapy (of the unlicensed variety)?"

This “maybe” doesn’t follow on in my opinion.  It’s a bit of a non sequitur.  They are two different techniques which are only congruent and compatible in terms of advancing the evolution or self-knowledge of the practitioner.

To be blunt the aim of initiation as described in my reply 15 sounds exactly like the aim of psychotherapy; the unburdening of repressions..

But they are not the same.  Initiation is more than that.  Yes, you are right inasmuch as it (initiation) involved dealing with the complexes that ‘assail’ the initiate, but that is a side-effect rather than an equals sign.  You were right in mentioning “the Light” earlier – but were you inferring that this Light does or does not originate from the same place (the individual’s subconscious)?

Complexes come from within the domain of the Ruach, which on the ToL extends all the way around (the solar point) from Daath to Yesod – I don’t think anyone is denying that?  But the “Light” comes from the Supernals (i.e. above the mind, above Daath).  It “stirs” things up – and the lightening effect can both “fill” the individual and “kill” those aspects standing in the way of unity.

To revisit your Reply #15:

"david" wrote:
The processes described will enable him to discriminate between what he actually is, and what he has fondly imagined himself to be  Why does he fondly imagine himself to be something other than that which he actually is?  Because it's too painful to discriminate what he actually is as it would mean uncovering the taboo emotions within his family system and his parents' family system so on. This is why the Thelemite is encouraged to expose himself to that which he would not ordinarily prefer to be exposed to as it stirs up the set attitudes (the "complexes") and that pressure and pain therein can, at times, force an "upright noble man" to appear to be "an unutterable scoundrel."

This bit seemed rather woolly.  Could you possibly manage to tighten it up a bit further?  And while you’re at it, the following bit from your Reply #5 to Tao didn’t make much sense either – could you rephrase what you meant, please?

Reply #5 by david on: January 17, 2015, 01:28:51 am:

Encourage evolution? I'm not with you.  When you say "evolution" you mean human progression as a counteractive strategy against any arrested development in the psyche?  Self-induced arrested development that is.  The occult is supposed to be about lifting the shutters / the screen that we use to fudge and distort reality, but most "occultists" seem to be adept at screening and hiding reality more fully from themselves and more often than not  terms like "initiation" or "evolution" or (your capitalized "S" version of) "Self knowledge" just become  buzzwords that encourage such self-entanglement in delusion.

And talking of sources, where does it say

Reply #5 by david on: January 17, 2015, 01:28:51 am:

Crowley's statement that the Great Work is "the raising of the whole man to the power of infinity" which imo is, in turn, echoed in Dr Leary's "set, setting and dosage," However Crowley boasted about healing Norman Mudd's depression at Cefalu and he insisted that his yoga could calm the nerves.

Also, regarding:

Reply #5 by david on: January 17, 2015, 01:28:51 am:

There you have it.  There's nothing mystical about initiation according to Crowley it's an entirely mundane process of overcoming timidity (maladjustment), anger tantrums, depression (described as "sorrow") and stress(described as "slavery" and "discomfort"/"imperfection.")

This is off the mark – to turn it around and say there’s nothing “mundane” about initiation and it’s entirely “mystical” would be more correct!  (I think you are trying to find pat answers to equivalences between things where there aren’t any.)

"david" wrote:
"jamie barter" wrote:
"Speeding things up"; I guesse this is what magick and drugs do and this in terms of semantics is where we have formulated the difference between psychotherapy and "initiation".  Again it's the "set" aspect of "set, setting and dosage." You're saying that "the Light" is brought into descent into the "soul" but if there is disequilibrium within the psyche ("armouring") then it's of no concern for "the Light" as it will blindly storm on energizing that which it has been called to energize?  In that case "initiation" is not psychotherapy at all but is a neutral "energy raising."
I wasn’t saying that – you are putting words into my mouth! –

You misunderstood I wasn't quoting you I was asking if you agreed with my views.

Ok, monsieur – it could have been interpreted either way, and I think i did say I agreed anyways.

"david" wrote:
"jamie barter" wrote:
Yes, that could apply to one aspect of karma.  Magickally speaking it might also incorporate “past lives therapy” as well (e.g., in terms of the magickal memory, through Liber Viarum Viae, Berashith, etc) but this won’t go down too well with the skeptics in whose company you "associate" and are presumably included? (!)

Yes.

I meant Liber Memoriae Viae, Berashith there (i.e. Liber 913). Parts of Liber E would apply also.

Did you mean “yes, it might incorporate past lives therapy as well”, or “yes I am a confirmed skeptic”?  (Or maybe both!?)

"jamie barter" wrote:
"david" wrote:
Then again I think it's individual inclinations in thee matters as what is "armour"?  It's an unconsciously blocked emotional expression which is stuck in the mind and simultaneously in the muscles.  I guesse that was Reich's individual take on therapy to focus more on the muscles but a conventional therapist is trying to un- repress those stored emotional reactions also.

Both Reich and “conventional therapists” would view the same cause-and-effect process in operation with regard to blockage except that the conventional therapist might not accept trauma would be stored in the muscles.

Further to that, Hubbard agreed with this and thought that the blocked energy represented by “engrams” in the reactive mind could be monitored and psychoanalyzed further (or back) courtesy of his E-meter device with dianetics “auditing”.  Apart from the questionable ‘scientific’ validity of his procedure, that was one of his better conceptions – or possibly his best.

'NJoy


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Shiva
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21/01/2015 3:54 pm  

Reply #5 by david on: January 17, 2015, 01:28:51 am:

However Crowley boasted about healing Norman Mudd's depression at Cefalu ...

"Aleister Crowley had prophesized that Mudd would die by drowning. Mudd must have been eager to fulfill his master's prophesy. On 16 June 1934 a body was found near the island of Guernsey, fully clothed, cycle clips around the bottom of the trousers and all the pockets filled with stones. This was the body of Norman Mudd."
- http://www.magickalmind.com/crowleybio.htm

Yup, a really great healing!


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OKontrair
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21/01/2015 4:18 pm  

Is it really the case that Crowley made any such prophesy? (I genuinely don't know), The usual observation is simply that AC dedicated a poem to Mudd and that the poem was called 'The Swimmer'. This looks like hindsight applied for dramatic effect to me.

If someone really did allieviate symptoms in (say) 1924 and it lasted till 1934 that strikes me as quite good.

OK


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21/01/2015 4:51 pm  
"Shiva" wrote:

Reply #5 by david on: January 17, 2015, 01:28:51 am:

However Crowley boasted about healing Norman Mudd's depression at Cefalu ...

"Aleister Crowley had prophesized that Mudd would die by drowning. Mudd must have been eager to fulfill his master's prophesy. On 16 June 1934 a body was found near the island of Guernsey, fully clothed, cycle clips around the bottom of the trousers and all the pockets filled with stones. This was the body of Norman Mudd."
- http://www.magickalmind.com/crowleybio.htm

Yup, a really great healing!

see below

"OKontrair" wrote:
Is it really the case that Crowley made any such prophesy? (I genuinely don't know), The usual observation is simply that AC dedicated a poem to Mudd and that the poem was called 'The Swimmer'. This looks like hindsight applied for dramatic effect to me.

If someone really did allieviate symptoms in (say) 1924 and it lasted till 1934 that strikes me as quite good.

OK

Exactly, do you Shiva honestly think that people in therapy who improved are incapable of returning to their dysfunctional ways?


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Shiva
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21/01/2015 7:15 pm  
"david" wrote:
... do you Shiva honestly think that people in therapy who improved are incapable of returning to their dysfunctional ways?

Not if they were really "healed." Now, if they just got a temporary reprieve, then of course they'll drop back into their old ways. When something is "healed," then it doesn't give more trouble. If it's "repressed" or "in remission" or "other similar terms," then it's still there, although maybe out of sight. So, if the claim was, "I healed him," then I say ...

"Yup, a really great healing!"

Oh, I already said that, didn't I?


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21/01/2015 7:55 pm  
"Shiva" wrote:
"david" wrote:
... do you Shiva honestly think that people in therapy who improved are incapable of returning to their dysfunctional ways?

Not if they were really "healed." Now, if they just got a temporary reprieve, then of course they'll drop back into their old ways. When something is "healed," then it doesn't give more trouble. If it's "repressed" or "in remission" or "other similar terms," then it's still there, although maybe out of sight. So, if the claim was, "I healed him," then I say ...

"Yup, a really great healing!"

Oh, I already said that, didn't I?

Your not sticking to the context of my original point.  Crowley boasted about getting rid of Mudd's depression at Cefalu.  Take it up with Crowley he was the one who was bragging about the therapeutic value of initiatory techniques (or fusing the two fields together as one common process.)  I'm assuming he was using magick and mysticism with Mudd anyway as Cefalu was an initiatory temple of sorts. 


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Shiva
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21/01/2015 8:21 pm  
"david" wrote:
Your not sticking to the context of my original point.

So now you're telling people (well, me, in this case) that they need to be sticklers and stick to your context? Do you have control issues? Shall we all just leave LAShTAL and let you answer your own posts, exactly the way you want it done?

I'm assuming he was using magick ...

"Assuming" 😮  Crowley claimed to be the world's greatest psychologist 😉  So why assume he was using Magick?


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21/01/2015 8:40 pm  
"Tao" wrote:
It isn't a part of a therapeutic process as far as I'm aware. You're overlaying your presumption that the two processes (psychotherapy and magical initiation) are interchangeable.

But what actually is "initiation"?  I've relayed what psychotherapy is with a direct explanation but no one has given a direct explanation of what  "initiation" is on the thread yet. 

"Tao" wrote:
If you remove that veil from your eyes, you'll see that nnO2 is contrasting them by showing that the closest to a parallel he can find is Assagoli and Jung but that magic has a larger encompassing vision which posits three levels of consciousness rather than psychology's typical two. Extrapolating from what he writes (and without putting words into his mouth), this could be phrased: Psychotherapy and magical initiation are two distinct processes focusing on different parts of the psyche

I'm finding contradiction there as if initiation (working with three "levels of consciousness") works with (as you put it," different) parts of the psyche" and pyscho-therapy is literally a psychic process then there's no dichotomy between initiation and psychotherapy.  They're both of "the psyche." Right? 

Therapy is about whole-ness; the whole psyche. 

"Tao" wrote:
with completely different goals.

Maybe they have the same goal; to feel good...moreso.......... therefore again, no dichotomy.  The aim of the Great Work?  Summum Bonum; perfect happiness and true wisdom.  The aim of psychotherapy?  The same?  Well, yes surely.

"Tao" wrote:
with completely different goals. There is occasionally some overlap in technical language and specific techniques, and certain practitioners of one have also investigated the other in attempts to expand their understanding, but nevertheless the goals remain distinct.

As above.

"Tao" wrote:
It doesn't, except in that the guiding force of one's life (one's Will, if you like) must be uncovered before one is able to follow it along the Path of Initiation.

The process of the revelations of those  "repressions"  is the discovery of Will.  The Khu is conditioned it's a clay mould it's  a programmed machine.  As we break it's mould or deprogram we reveal the Khabs and this is ...initiation/therapy.  By the way when I use the term psychotherapy did you necessarily think that I meant lying on a couch with some Dr?  I didn't.

"Tao" wrote:
As stated several times over the past few months, you really must do better at citing your sources david. I for one will not be wasting any more of my time tracking down origins via Google if you can't be bothered to cite a source.

I did in the OP from the Eye in the triangle but ok he pulled it from MITAP.

"Tao" wrote:
So, from Magick in Theory and Practice ch. XX: "Of the Eucharist and of the Art of Alchemy", you have pulled a quote that describes the ordeals of an aspirant on the threshold of Initiation. What of it? To be "on the threshold" of Initiation posits a condition prior to Initiation. As I said above, reflecting Regardie's beliefs, psychotherapy can be undergone with benefit prior to Initiation in order to assist the aspirant in resolving any complexes that may be weighing down her psyche before she hits it with the blast that is magical Initiation. Further, if we extend your quote above into its context, Crowley is comparing the aspirant to the "First Matter" of the alchemical process which must go through a preliminary stage of blackening and putrefaction in the "Black Dragon" from which it emerges as the "Green Lion", ready to begin the actual process of alchemical purification and transmutation.

so in effect "initiation " is a form of advanced therapy then; "the raising of the whole man (who is always aware of his conditioned taboo psychosocial emotions) to infinity"? 

To continue this discussion properly though we'd have to define "super- consciousness" and/or "initiation" otherwise we're thrashing in the dark.  I would define those two processes as some sort of psychological state.


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21/01/2015 8:56 pm  
"Shiva" wrote:
"david" wrote:
Your not sticking to the context of my original point.

So now you're telling people (well, me, in this case) that they need to be sticklers and stick to your context? Do you have control issues? Shall we all just leave LAShTAL and let you answer your own posts, exactly the way you want it done?

That's  a bit unfair to twist my words there and react like that.  I'll explain you seem to have misunderstood.  The context I was referring to was that Mudd visited  AC in an initiatory centre i.e. Cefalu.  This is where AC healed his depression.  It has nothing to do with me telling you what to do  and I don't know how on earth you formulated that conclusion??.

"Shiva" wrote:
[

I'm assuming he was using magick ...

"Assuming" 😮  Crowley claimed to be the world's greatest psychologist 😉  So why assume he was using Magick?

Because the context of the claim by Crowley as I said earlier was that of initiating magickal guru. 


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21/01/2015 9:28 pm  

If I may add ; initiation.  What exactly is it?  Why would we want to attain it?  How long does it last for and how can we tell if we are undergoing a successful initiation?


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Tao
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21/01/2015 10:58 pm  
"david" wrote:
If I may add ; initiation.  What exactly is it?  Why would we want to attain it?  How long does it last for and how can we tell if we are undergoing a successful initiation?

As I provided an answer to you for this exact question precisely 2 weeks ago, I'll not be bothered again. Look it up if you're actually interested. In fact, given that this is your thread and this question has direct bearing on the discussion you claim to want to have and that you claim, against all contrary evidence, to retain an open mind about, I'd go further to say it is your burden to do just that.

That fact that you're only posing this question now, and in a voice of innocent inquiry, adds confirmation to my prior conclusion that this discussion is nothing more than a troll, rehashing the same beliefs that you've voiced in every other thread over the past six months for the sole purpose of creating more digital text to clog up the works.

I, for one, see no point in adding to the heap.

Enjoy your therapy. Think of it as initiation if that helps you. Be well.


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21/01/2015 11:07 pm  
"Tao" wrote:
"david" wrote:
If I may add ; initiation.  What exactly is it?  Why would we want to attain it?  How long does it last for and how can we tell if we are undergoing a successful initiation?

As I provided an answer to you for this exact question precisely 2 weeks ago, I'll not be bothered again. Look it up if you're actually interested. In fact, given that this is your thread and this question has direct bearing on the discussion you claim to want to have and that you claim, against all contrary evidence, to retain an open mind about, I'd go further to say it is your burden to do just that.

That fact that you're only posing this question now, and in a voice of innocent inquiry, adds confirmation to my prior conclusion that this discussion is nothing more than a troll, rehashing the same beliefs that you've voiced in every other thread over the past six months for the sole purpose of creating more digital text to clog up the works.

I, for one, see no point in adding to the heap.

Enjoy your therapy. Think of it as initiation if that helps you. Be well.

You mean this riddle?

"Tao" wrote:
Magical initiation is a method of creating problems in the psyche, the solving of which leads one to self-knowledge.

Yes I remember it well.  I remember it well because it left me and I'm sure others, hanging.  I'm sorry but you'd have to elaborate on what it is to "create problems in the psyche."     


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21/01/2015 11:42 pm  

@Tao it appears that when you're annoyed you tend to throw troll accusations about.  My tone has been perfectly civil and respectful in this thread and as for a definition of initiation I gave mine; it appears to be advanced psychotherapy and  by psychotherapy I don't necessarily mean the lying-on-a-couch-talking-to-a- shrink variety.  I do appreciate the model whereby guph (malkuth) and nepesh (yesod) are infused from tipareth and the supernals.  Likewise I appreciate that in that model nepesh is where our complexes become hidden but I don't see a problem with identifying initiation as advanced therapy. 

Consider this poetic reference to identifying as the Khabs and not the Khu;

"Now Initiation is, by etymology, the journeying inwards; it is the Voyage of Discovery (oh Wonder-World!) of one's own Soul. And this is Truth that stands upon the prow, eternally alert; this is Truth that sits with one strong hand gripping the helm!

Truth is our Path, and Truth is our Goal; ay! there shall came to all a moment of great Light when the Path is seen to be itself the Goal; and in that hour every one of us shall exclaim:

'I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life!'"

~~Little Essays Towards Truth

i.e. initiation; discovery of the True Will (True Self) and/or (when attained) dissolution of identification with that True Self into the Abyss.

"Shiva" wrote:

Reply #5 by david on: January 17, 2015, 01:28:51 am:

However Crowley boasted about healing Norman Mudd's depression at Cefalu ...

"Aleister Crowley had prophesized that Mudd would die by drowning. Mudd must have been eager to fulfill his master's prophesy. On 16 June 1934 a body was found near the island of Guernsey, fully clothed, cycle clips around the bottom of the trousers and all the pockets filled with stones. This was the body of Norman Mudd."
- http://www.magickalmind.com/crowleybio.htm

Yup, a really great healing!

I can't find the Mudd-depression story in my notes and I'd like to make a sincere apology.  It's looking like I may've mixed it up with the Frank Bennet story as follows from The Confessions  Chapter 90;

Without knowledge of his need I had unwittingly given him the key to the inmost treasury of his soul. One minute facet of truth unveiled from the matrix by the wheel of my word had let in the light.  In three days he had achieved the critical initiation which had baffled him for nearly thirty years.  I prescribed a Magical Retirement so that he might fix in his consciousness that lightning flash as a permanent arc-lamp.  This proved a success. (4)

My own joy was boundless.  I was inspired to prepare a perfected ritual for the attainment of the Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel, and presented him with a copy of the manuscript for use in his operation.  I entitled it liber Samekh. (5)  It is the most powerful  and exalted of all my magical instructions.  I think he was helped not a little, not only by the ritual itself, but by the feeling that I had sufficient care for him -- he suffered from humility -- to devote myself so passionately to making his path plain.

One result of this Retirement is astounding from the point of view of the profane.  The Spirit of the Lord descended upon him and opened his eyes to a series of visions of a class far more exalted and intense and intimate than anything he had hitherto experienced.  He was inspired to write these down during their actual
occurence, and here is the marvel.  His education had been quite elementary. 

He could neither spell nor construct his sentences correctly, nor had he command of any extended vocabulary.  What, then, was my amazement to perceive in his style an originality and power of the first order.  It, not less than his subject, was quite dissimilar from that of John Bunyan, and yet the suggestion of identity was undeniable.  It was a kinship of soul. 

Parallel with this spiritual attainment, his mental and physical powers were renewed as the eagle's.  His depression vanished and was replaced by calm, deep joy, overflowing and manifest to all of us.  He began to take long solitary walks across the hills and did his twenty miles a day as he had not done for a quarter of a century.  We felt it as an actual bereavement when the time came for him to go back to Sydney. 

Nevertheless it demonstrates Crowley's success in healing someone using initiatory techniques.


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Tao
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22/01/2015 1:36 am  
"david" wrote:
You mean this riddle?

"Tao" wrote:
Magical initiation is a method of creating problems in the psyche, the solving of which leads one to self-knowledge.

Actually, no, I meant the one that I posted, as stated, "precisely 2 weeks ago", i.e. January 7:
http://www.lashtal.com/forum/http://www.lashtal.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=0.msg87481#msg87481

"david" wrote:
@Tao it appears that when you're annoyed you tend to throw troll accusations about.  My tone has been perfectly civil and respectful in this thread

 

From www.urbandictionary.com:

The art of deliberately, cleverly, and secretly pissing people off, usually via the internet, using dialogue. Trolling does not mean just making rude remarks: Shouting swear words at someone doesn't count as trolling; it's just flaming, and isn't funny. Spam isn't trolling either; it pisses people off, but it's lame.

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"david" wrote:
and as for a definition of initiation I gave mine; it appears to be advanced psychotherapy and  by psychotherapy I don't necessarily mean the lying-on-a-couch-talking-to-a- shrink variety.  I do appreciate the model whereby guph (malkuth) and nepesh (yesod) are infused from tipareth and the supernals.  Likewise I appreciate that in that model nepesh is where our complexes become hidden but I don't see a problem with identifying initiation as advanced therapy.

 
You now have 9 people on this thread and, as previously stated, at least 2 of them have some formal training in psychology and at least 3 have experience within a formal initiatory structure. None of them have supported your suggestion that initiation is simply advanced psychotherapy. And yet you persist, acting innocent and genuinely interested and tossing out insinuations of others' closed-mindedness when their experience trumps your hypotheticals. I've worked in this internet business long enough to know a troll when I see one. I've played your game because you've occasionally shown signs of actual interest but, watching the patterns over six months, the underlying threads have become all too clear. From what I glean, you have been on pre-moderation several times over and I can't say that surprises me. You might be learning how better to disguise your motives at a micro-level but, from a bird's-eye view they are clear as day.

Several posts back, Jamie attempted to put this thread on more solid footing. You agreed with him:

"david" wrote:
"jamie barter" wrote:
The answer to the question is clearly yes, as they are different terms used to describe the activation of different natural processes in the psyche.  It would be more precise to ask “What is the difference” or “By how much do they differ”? 

Good point Jamie.

Why have you now reverted to your original and unsupportable claim of identity? Were you just blowing smoke up his arse?


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22/01/2015 11:50 am  
"Tao" wrote:
Were you just blowing smoke up his arse

No. The answer is because this is a subject /thread where new creative ideas occurred to me and were inputted by myself and others and therefore views change as the discussion progresses.  You're being presented with a new idea here and you don't seem to like it.  I'm sorry if this riles you.  If you followed my input  in terms of definition I now think it's  a semantic issue.  "Initiation" is a configuration of advanced therapy.  I'm researching and providing cogent points and ideas and quotes from AC to back my claims up and you're walking over them and instead bemoaning troll memes.  Weren't you the one who said Los was a troll?  If so this is an issue you need to address.  Just because someone has a different opinion than you and may inadvertently force you to rewire your brain and doesn't toe your line they are not a troll.  You're being unfair.  If you do not like my views then you don't have to have a conversation with me on this thread.  Your tone is unpleasant.     

Another point I want to make is why do you (not necessarily "you" Tao) think indigenous initiate-shamans are known as "witch doctors"  or "medicine men"?  Also why does our medical profession use Mercury's  caduceus?  Mercury , god of magic and initiation. The notion of healing and initiation is coiled together in our history; 

From JW Parson's "we are the witchcraft"

WE ARE THE WITCHCRAFT. We are the oldest organization in the world. When man was born, we were.  We sang the first cradle song. We healed the first wound, we comforted the first terror. We were the Guardians against the Darkness, the Helpers on the Left Hand Side. Rock drawings in the Pyrenees remember us, and little clay images, made for an old purpose when the world was new. Our hand was on the old stone circles, the monolith, the dolmen, and the druid oak. We sang the first hunting songs, we made the first crops to grow; when man stood naked before the Powers that made him, we sang the first chant of terror and wonder. We wooed among the Pyramids, watched Egypt rise and fall, ruled for a space in Chaldea and Babylon, the Magian Kings. We sat among the secret assemblies of Israel, and danced the wild and stately dances in the sacred groves of Greece.

Like I said, Alan Watts said that Crowley aspired to be some sort of Hermetic healer. 

"Tao" wrote:
"Tao" wrote:
Magical initiation is a method of creating problems in the psyche, the solving of which leads one to self-knowledge.
"Tao" wrote:
Actually, no, I meant the one that I posted, as stated, "precisely 2 weeks ago", i.e. January 7:
http://www.lashtal.com/forum/http://www.lashtal.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=0.msg87481#msg87481

"Light" as in Neshamic aspect of Self.  The root meaning of neshama is "deep self"  I believe.  Yeah I see no reason to disagree with that definition in terms of what I've been discussing.


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jamie barter
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22/01/2015 1:10 pm  

Suggestions of smoke blowing up my nether regions aside (“- rectum?” “well it can’t have done them much good!” ;D ), there seems to be a certain amount of repetition taking place, particularly around the area of “What is Initiation?”

You said in Reply #23 that:

Reply #23 by david on: January 20, 2015, 10:58:16 pm »

I can't give you a yes as no one has yet to address my synthesis in Reply #15 where I bring in specific quotes from Crowley (himself) and his ideas about initiation and True Will and how they seemingly directly relate to the processes of psychotherapy.   If someone could dispute Reply #15 point by point with an explanation then I may be swayed.

 
But your answer to my point in Reply #22 just before the above asked if “I agreed” with your views (which I said I largely did) that “’initiation’ is not psychotherapy at all but is a neutral ‘energy raising’”:

Reply #22 on david: January 20, 2015, 10:39:27 pm:

[…] You're saying that "the Light" is brought into descent into the "soul" but if there is disequilibrium within the psyche ("armouring") then it's of no concern for "the Light" as it will blindly storm on energizing that which it has been called to energize?  In that case "initiation" is not psychotherapy at all but is a neutral "energy raising."

You misunderstood I wasn't quoting you I was asking if you agreed with my views.

This being the case, and unless you are going to semantically argue about the particular relevance of the word “aim” in there, how at the same time can you hold the view that

Reply #22 on david: January 20, 2015, 10:39:27 pm:

To be blunt the aim of initiation as described in my reply 15 sounds exactly like the aim of psychotherapy; the unburdening of repressions..

To which I came back with:

"jamie barter" wrote:
But they are not the same.  Initiation is more than that.  Yes, you are right inasmuch as it (initiation) involved dealing with the complexes that ‘assail’ the initiate, but that is a side-effect rather than an equals sign.  You were right in mentioning “the Light” earlier – but were you inferring that this Light does or does not originate from the same place (the individual’s subconscious)?

Complexes come from within the domain of the Ruach, which on the ToL extends all the way around (the solar point) from Daath to Yesod – I don’t think anyone is denying that?  But the “Light” comes from the Supernals (i.e. above the mind, above Daath).  It “stirs” things up – and the lightening effect can both “fill” the individual and “kill” those aspects standing in the way of unity.

which you have not responded to (or the other outstanding points in that reply of mine either, by the way), although you mention in your latest

"david" wrote:
"Light" as in Neshamic aspect of Self.  The root meaning of neshama is "deep self"  I believe.  Yeah I see no reason to disagree with that definition in terms of what I've been discussing.

Incidentally, there seems to be a whole massive thread dedicated to just this topic (“Initiation”, oddly enough sited under the “Member submitted reviews” board).  Nineteen pages long!  (Almost gives the Richard T. Cole one a run for its (his) money!)  Would’ya fancy necromantically revivifying that one?! 😮

I have not seen a response to this in your answer(s) either, ayino:

Reply #17 by Jamie barter on: January 20, 2015, 01:55:03 pm:

Quote from ayino on January 18, 2015, 04:00:54 pm:
“The only link between magick and psychotherapy is that the latter explores the symbols that could be considered malefic, illusory and equated with sorcery in the light of hermetic/magickal tradition.”

This does not make sense and is extraordinarily one-sided.  Please expand/ clarify.

If you agree it doesn’t make sense, please say so and we can all then disregard it – I’m sure we won’t hold it against you until your dying day!

‘иJoy


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22/01/2015 1:40 pm  

Jamie I didn't respond to repy #26 yet because I got side tracked by various entanglements.  I will do it later. 


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"david" wrote:
Also why does our medical profession use Mercury's  caduceus?  Mercury , god of magic and initiation. The notion of healing and initiation is coiled together in our history; 

Speaking strictly from the hermetic point of view; the caduceus symbolism is much more essential and layered.
Are you trying to imply, that the modern medicine that encompasses modern inventions like psychotherapy, is to be regarded as zeitgeist of our modern time and these new set of words are some improvement over the more traditional and religious doctrines and approaches?

Azoth or mercury is much more subtle idea that stands for much more 'nobler' symbols rather than just common medicine. Azoth and it's banner Caduceus stands for the universal medicine. 
Modern medical profession at large cares mostly for the longevity of the human organism and finding new ways to prolong it.
It shares one common goal: state of immortality. But their methods and understanding of that aim differ as much as does Kether and Malkuth.
Psychotherapy is a very recent phenomenon even from a purely historical point of view and when one considers that many other modern breakthroughs in modern medicine were made far before Freud or Jung came to "heal the mind" of these (physically) sick people too.

In a same fashion, you cannot go explain alchemy in terms of (modern) chemistry. But the basic study of (modern) chemistry and even observing experiments may assist one to understand some of the more poetic and highly symbolical language found in various texts of alchemy.

"1766 Alchemical Catechism, Théodore Henri de Tschudi denotes that the usage of the metals was a symbol" wrote:
Q. When the Philosophers speak of gold and silver, from which they extract their matter, are we to suppose that they refer to the vulgar gold and silver?

A. By no means; vulgar silver and gold are dead, while those of the Philosophers are full of life.


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22/01/2015 9:54 pm  

a parallel to medicine and philosophers medicine:

http://healthland.time.com/2012/01/24/magic-mushrooms-expand-the-mind-by-dampening-brain-activity/

Parts of the article might explain why spirals have been used in different traditions of witchery as means to astral projection.


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Tao
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22/01/2015 10:45 pm  
"david" wrote:
No. The answer is because this is a subject /thread where new creative ideas occurred to me and were inputted by myself and others and therefore views change as the discussion progresses.

Reply #2:

How can you try to create a dichotomy?

Reply #5:

There you have it.  There's nothing mystical about initiation according to Crowley it's an entirely mundane process of overcoming timidity (maladjustment), anger tantrums, depression (described as "sorrow") and stress(described as "slavery" and "discomfort"/"imperfection.")

Reply #8:

initiation strongly looks like psychotherapy

Reply #9:

so maybe we could define initiation as an  "advanced" form of psychotherapy (of the unlicensed variety)?

Reply #12:

In terms of magickal action and therapy there are those who argue that e.g. evocation is nothing *but* ritualized exploration of the unconscious.

Reply #22:

To be blunt the aim of initiation as described in my reply 15 sounds exactly like the aim of psychotherapy; the unburdening of repressions..

Reply #33:

there's no dichotomy between initiation and psychotherapy.

Reply #33:

Maybe they have the same goal; to feel good...moreso.......... therefore again, no dichotomy.  The aim of the Great Work?  Summum Bonum; perfect happiness and true wisdom.  The aim of psychotherapy?  The same?  Well, yes surely.

Reply #33:

The process of the revelations of those  "repressions"  is the discovery of Will.  The Khu is conditioned it's a clay mould it's  a programmed machine.  As we break it's mould or deprogram we reveal the Khabs and this is ...initiation/therapy.

Reply #33:

so in effect "initiation " is a form of advanced therapy

Reply #38:

for a definition of initiation I gave mine; it appears to be advanced psychotherapy and  by psychotherapy I don't necessarily mean the lying-on-a-couch-talking-to-a- shrink variety.  I do appreciate the model whereby guph (malkuth) and nepesh (yesod) are infused from tipareth and the supernals.  Likewise I appreciate that in that model nepesh is where our complexes become hidden but I don't see a problem with identifying initiation as advanced therapy.

Would you be so kind as to show me where in that list your view has changed as those with experience have shared with you their knowledge?

You're being presented with a new idea here and you don't seem to like it.  I'm sorry if this riles you.

Nonsense. This is the same idea you've been tossing into conversations since I started posting here and, I have to assume, it started long before then [EDIT: I just did a bit of trawling through the archives and found that there was a bit of a 180 pulled about a year ago. Interesting.]. You [now] seem to have this belief that this thing called magic is actually just another name for processes that you can categorise within the common sense, everyday, consensus reality, materialist paradigm. Over and over you raise the same sorts of questions and same sorts of arguments in order to forward that argument but never do you actually listen to the input given by those with experience who attempt to share it with you. You take their words, turn them around, obfuscate them in non-essentials, pull out some quote from Crowley, and then punctuate it with the anti-occult version of "Checkmate, Atheists!"

If there actually were new ideas here, I might find the conversation more interesting. But this one has been relatively straight-forward. Azidonis captured it better than any of us:

"Azidonis" wrote:
"david" wrote:
Is there a difference between magical initiation and psychotherapy?

Yes.

If you followed my input  in terms of definition I now think it's  a semantic issue.  "Initiation" is a configuration of advanced therapy.

 
As demonstrated above, this has been your claim since the beginning. No amount of discussion or revelation of contrary points has changed that. At every step of the discussion, you have done what you can to re-frame the points made into your own preferred paradigm. You have conveniently ignored the repeated foundation of those counterpoints, so eloquently presented by Azidonis above, and instead focused on ways to twist the supporting material to fit within your box. You are not actually processing the replies because you are focused only on ways to get the words to fit your definition.

I'm researching and providing cogent points and ideas and quotes from AC to back my claims up and you're walking over them and instead bemoaning troll memes.

This has nothing to do with memes, this has to do with the tactics described above. You posted a rhetorical question in the header of a thread and no real information in the body of your OP. Then, once you caught a few fish on your line (I admit to being the rube that started that for you) you reveal your actual belief, one that hasn't changed one iota throughout the discussion, and attack any presentation that doesn't fit in with it. You do this by claiming weak definitions of terms (ignoring that you started the discussion without a definition of terms), by suggesting others have a lack of real understanding of the issue (ignoring that you have both trained psycho-somethings and magical initiates in the discussion trying to share their experience with you), by re-defining terms in order to try to make others appear closed minded (You didn't actually think I just meant lying-on-a-couch therapy, did you? Oh no, little old me wouldn't be nearly that limited. Accepting an influx of Light from the Supernals via Tiphereth is also within my definition of psychotherapy, don'cha know? Now what does that actually mean? Nobody's bothered to provide a definition for it yet. How can we trust that any of this stuff is true if nobody will define their terms?).

Weren't you the one who said Los was a troll?  If so this is an issue you need to address.

 
I was not. I think that Los has some incorrect premises from which he's basing his arguments but, beyond that, he generally provides very well reasoned and defended positions. Nor have I yet run across a thread that was started by him. I've only interacted with him as a responder to others' questions.

Just because someone has a different opinion than you and may inadvertently force you to rewire your brain and doesn't toe your line they are not a troll.

 
Obv. But, regarding the question you posed here ("Is there a difference between magical initiation and psychotherapy?") this isn't really a question of opinion. This is a question of fact. And the fact has been given to you: They are two distinct processes. By continuing to treat it as a question of opinion, you are allowing yourself to persist in an ill-formed conclusion. Based on the choice of quotes you keep tossing out and your limited elucidation of them, its hard not to come to the conclusion that you are the one who has hard-wired yourself into a corner and are now crystallising there.

You're being unfair.

Am I? 

If you do not like my views then you don't have to have a conversation with me on this thread.

The downside of posting on a public forum is that you might not like what the public has to say about your views. Truth hurts. Toughen up, kiddo. 

Your tone is unpleasant.

Perhaps if you imagined me speaking in a high-pitched squeak, as of just having inhaled a helium balloon, that opinion might change.

Another point I want to make is why do you (not necessarily "you" Tao) think indigenous initiate-shamans are known as "witch doctors"  or "medicine men"?  Also why does our medical profession use Mercury's  caduceus?  Mercury , god of magic and initiation. The notion of healing and initiation is coiled together in our history;

Though this smacks of the "Checkmate, Atheists!" type of nonsense mentioned above, I believe ayino dealt with the specifics of this adequately. In the spirit of improving my "tone", I'll instead do you one better.

In the Fama Fraternitatis, the first oath of the members of the FRC is: "That none of them should profess any other thing, then to cure the sick, and that gratis." In your own Holy Book, Liber Legis, Nuit promises that, if her directions are followed: "This shall regenerate the world, the little world my sister, my heart & my tongue, unto whom I send this kiss." As you say, the notions of health and magic are intertwined throughout history. What does that have to do with psychotherapy?

From JW Parson's "we are the witchcraft"

WE ARE THE WITCHCRAFT. We are the oldest organization in the world. When man was born, we were.  We sang the first cradle song. We healed the first wound, we comforted the first terror. We were the Guardians against the Darkness, the Helpers on the Left Hand Side. Rock drawings in the Pyrenees remember us, and little clay images, made for an old purpose when the world was new. Our hand was on the old stone circles, the monolith, the dolmen, and the druid oak. We sang the first hunting songs, we made the first crops to grow; when man stood naked before the Powers that made him, we sang the first chant of terror and wonder. We wooed among the Pyramids, watched Egypt rise and fall, ruled for a space in Chaldea and Babylon, the Magian Kings. We sat among the secret assemblies of Israel, and danced the wild and stately dances in the sacred groves of Greece.

Again: What does this have to do with psychotherapy?

Like I said, Alan Watts said that Crowley aspired to be some sort of Hermetic healer.

You did. I ignored it at the time because it was buried in a passage where you were trying to equate "the raising of the whole man to the power of infinity" to Leary's guidelines for psychedelic therapy (a category confusion) and your mis-remembrance of Norman Mudd. But, again in the spirit of improving my tone, I'll ask without any condescension: Citation, please?

And, while we wait: Why do you equate "Hermetic healer" specifically to psychotherapy out of all the possible branches of the healing arts? Why do you assume that this action of healing is identical to Initiation rather than a result of the process of Initiation?

To give you some assistance:

"Tao" wrote:
Psychotherapy's intent is to heal illness. Initiation's intent is to encourage evolution.
"jamie barter" wrote:
The answer to the question is clearly yes, as they are different terms used to describe the activation of different natural processes in the psyche.  It would be more precise to ask “What is the difference” or “By how much do they differ”?
"newneubergOuch2" wrote:
I started my professional training in the therapeutic world (and worked with/ alongside counsellors, psychotherapists  and psychologists for many years) and that coincided with my beginning Magical studies,.
I found many overlaps most certainly over the years, and found the practitioners of both had similar interests the higher up the food chain i went, but in the end with all their similarities  I found they were quite different beasts in their approaches and methods.
"ayino" wrote:
Most of the magical/yogic traditions are in no way comparable to psychic or psychoanalythical therapy and those initiatic traditions maintain their candidates for the most of the time to be perfectly balanced as possible if the promised 'development' or 'great work' can even begin to take place.

The only link between magick and psychotherapy is that the latter explores the symbols that could be considered malefic, illusory and equated with sorcery in the light of hermetic/magickal tradition.

"jamie barter" wrote:
They are two different techniques which are only congruent and compatible in terms of advancing the evolution or self-knowledge of the practitioner.
"jamie barter" wrote:
"david" wrote:
In that case "initiation" is not psychotherapy at all but is a neutral "energy raising."

...There is the obvious corollary of Liber AL III:38 (‘The light is mine; its rays consume me …’)

"jamie barter" wrote:
Magickally speaking [speeding up an individual's karma] might also incorporate “past lives therapy” as well (e.g., in terms of the magickal memory, through Liber Viarum Viae, Berashith, etc) but this won’t go down too well with the skeptics in whose company you "associate" and are presumably included? (!)
"Tao" wrote:
Psychotherapy and magical initiation are two distinct processes focusing on different parts of the psyche and with completely different goals. There is occasionally some overlap in technical language and specific techniques, and certain practitioners of one have also investigated the other in attempts to expand their understanding, but nevertheless the goals remain distinct.
"jamie barter" wrote:
"david" wrote:
To be blunt the aim of initiation as described in my reply 15 sounds exactly like the aim of psychotherapy; the unburdening of repressions..

But they are not the same.  Initiation is more than that.  Yes, you are right inasmuch as it (initiation) involved dealing with the complexes that ‘assail’ the initiate, but that is a side-effect rather than an equals sign.  You were right in mentioning “the Light” earlier – but were you inferring that this Light does or does not originate from the same place (the individual’s subconscious)?

Complexes come from within the domain of the Ruach, which on the ToL extends all the way around (the solar point) from Daath to Yesod – I don’t think anyone is denying that?  But the “Light” comes from the Supernals (i.e. above the mind, above Daath).  It “stirs” things up – and the lightening effect can both “fill” the individual and “kill” those aspects standing in the way of unity.

"jamie barter" wrote:
Also, regarding:

Reply #5 by david on: January 17, 2015, 01:28:51 am:

There you have it.  There's nothing mystical about initiation according to Crowley it's an entirely mundane process of overcoming timidity (maladjustment), anger tantrums, depression (described as "sorrow") and stress(described as "slavery" and "discomfort"/"imperfection.")

This is off the mark – to turn it around and say there’s nothing “mundane” about initiation and it’s entirely “mystical” would be more correct!  (I think you are trying to find pat answers to equivalences between things where there aren’t any.)

"Light" as in Neshamic aspect of Self.  The root meaning of neshama is "deep self"  I believe.  Yeah I see no reason to disagree with that definition in terms of what I've been discussing.

Actually, the root meaning of Neshama is "breath", not "deep self". Within my definition, I clarified it as the "spiritual aspect of Self". Nowhere do I suggest that "Light" is the Neshamic aspect of Self nor would I agree with that definition. Light is Light. Khabs. Konx. L.V.X. It is that thing that makes the comparison to psychotherapy inexplicable. By treading the Path of Initiation, you are subjecting yourself (small-s) to the process of revealing the spiritual, or Neshamic, aspect of Self (large-S) by which you can experience the clear, unadulterated Light.

At the link I provided, there is a very clear breakdown of the different steps on the Path of Initiation. Did you check it out? If you really wanted to force this argument, you could probably support the notion that psychotherapy could be a technique used for the first, and possibly even the second levels of that path: those of average humanity and of the aspirants. The third step, however, that of the Initiate, is a different process, and while the techniques of psychotherapy might still prove useful for a given individual in addressing latent issues of the first two degrees, it is not a necessary nor definitional part of the process.


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"jamie barter" wrote:
But they are not the same.  Initiation is more than that.  Yes, you are right inasmuch as it (initiation) involved dealing with the complexes that ‘assail’ the initiate, but that is a side-effect rather than an equals sign.  You were right in mentioning “the Light” earlier – but were you inferring that this Light does or does not originate from the same place (the individual’s subconscious)?

I don't know.  I was referring to traditional occult ideas about "the Light" I wasn't espousing my own views because what is "the Light"?  Visualization of  light infusing our imagined subtle body?  An inhalation of weed-smoke?  Mysterious "mobilization" that appears to take place in consciousness when we hold our breath for unnaturally long periods?  Reich's "orgone"?  LSD?  Leary's aim (before he was famous) was to use LSD to cure alcoholism I believe.    This is an example of an ill person being healed using initiatory techniques is it not?  We know what consciousness is and we accept that the ego hides painful emotions in a "sub" conscious (Reich claims that this includes our muscles).  This is observable but "super consciousness" maybe that is what we attain when we integrate the sub conscious with the ego and instigate healing.  Studies show that psychologically healed people "get religion."  Maybe these moments of super-consciousness are moments of whole-ness ie healing? Maslovian peak experiences.  In effect then yeah sure you could argue that super-consciousness awaits, dormant and silent waiting to be"activated" as it were but there is no need to attribute "it" to some sort of otherworldly transcendental dimension or give "it" philosophical validitity. 

"jamie barter" wrote:
But they are not the same.  Initiation is more than that.  Yes, you are right inasmuch as it (initiation) involved dealing with the complexes that ‘assail’ the initiate, but that is a side-effect rather than an equals sign.

So as a person approaches "initiation" the contents of his subconscious garbage-can assail him?  Read that sentence again only replace the word "initiation" with the phrase  "sub-conscious confrontation."  It makes sense eh?  They do the same thing.  In fact Regardie sort of uses your and Tao's viewpoint in his Crowley bio but he contradicts himself throughout by constantly talking about AC's character and his complexes (from a Reichean perspective) when he discusses AC's initiation.  But Reich never claimed to be an initiator did he?  He was a doctor and scientist.

What about Jung?  Surely he wanted "individuation" for his patients?  He espoused a type of astral projection technique for them. 

"jamie barter" wrote:
.  You were right in mentioning “the Light” earlier – but were you inferring that this Light does or does not originate from the same place (the individual’s subconscious)?

Good question and I tried to address this above/earlier.

"jamie barter" wrote:
Complexes come from within the domain of the Ruach, which on the ToL extends all the way around (the solar point) from Daath to Yesod – I don’t think anyone is denying that?  But the “Light” comes from the Supernals (i.e. above the mind, above Daath).  It “stirs” things up – and the lightening effect can both “fill” the individual and “kill” those aspects standing in the way of unity.

so the philosophical theory goes yes.

"jamie barter" wrote:
This bit seemed rather woolly.  Could you possibly manage to tighten it up a bit further?

Yeah sure go to the latest reply #44 in the "vile and horrible concubine " thread as it deals with this.

"jamie barter" wrote:
And while you’re at it, the following bit from your Reply #5 to Tao didn’t make much sense either – could you rephrase what you meant, please?
quote Reply #5 by david on: January 17, 2015, 01:28:51 am:

"Encourage evolution? I'm not with you.  When you say "evolution" you mean human progression as a counteractive strategy against any arrested development in the psyche?  Self-induced arrested development that is.  The occult is supposed to be about lifting the shutters / the screen that we use to fudge and distort reality, but most "occultists" seem to be adept at screening and hiding reality more fully from themselves and more often than not  terms like "initiation" or "evolution" or (your capitalized "S" version of) "Self knowledge" just become  buzzwords that encourage such self-entanglement in delusion."

Which bit?  Stages of development?  Buzzwords?

"jamie barter" wrote:
And talking of sources, where does it say "Crowley's statement that the Great Work is "the raising of the whole man to the power of infinity" which imo is, in turn, echoed in Dr Leary's "set, setting and dosage," "However Crowley boasted about healing Norman Mudd's depression at Cefalu and he insisted that his yoga could calm the nerves."

It was Bennett not Mudd I apologised for that.  Yoga calming the nerves?  Answer ;The flyer-ad  for 8 lectures. The Leary echoing is my opinion but as I said Leary was initially interested in healing alcoholics with LSD.

"jamie barter" wrote:
Also, regarding: "There you have it.  There's nothing mystical about initiation according to Crowley it's an entirely mundane process of overcoming timidity (maladjustment), anger tantrums, depression (described as "sorrow") and stress(described as "slavery" and "discomfort"/"imperfection.")"

This is off the mark – to turn it around and say there’s nothing “mundane” about initiation and it’s entirely “mystical” would be more correct!  (I think you are trying to find pat answers to equivalences between things where there aren’t any.)

But Horus in that poem destroys the timid, the poor, the weak, the weary, the imperfect, the angry and the discomforted as he initiates as he "roots out the weeds" and "ends the sickness of earth."

"jamie barter" wrote:
Further to that, Hubbard agreed with this and thought that the blocked energy represented by “engrams” in the reactive mind could be monitored and psychoanalyzed further (or back) courtesy of his E-meter device with dianetics “auditing”.  Apart from the questionable ‘scientific’ validity of his procedure, that was one of his better conceptions – or possibly his best.

'NJoy

I don't discuss Hubbard as having anything useful to contribute to..well...anything really.


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Anonymous
 Anonymous
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23/01/2015 2:19 am  
"Tao" wrote:
[
Would you be so kind as to show me where in that list your view has changed as those with experience have shared with you their knowledge?
.

I said something akin to "good point Jamie" as he began to sway my view.  I also openly accepted the notion that "the Light" that initiates is a completely neutral "force" that the afflicted can invoke.  As the thread progressed though I analysed those notions and couldn't convince myself beyond reasonable doubt that such a "force" is actually divorced from the psyche.  I would posit that initiation is an advanced form of "sub-conscious garbage-can confrontation" (otherwise known as psychotherapy.)  A continuation.  However if someone afflicted tries to do advanced therapy without preliminary work then I guesse they are still classified as initiates aren't they?  I see your point about there being a difference but I am simply discussing the similarities as an exercise in an attempt to define both terms.   

"Tao" wrote:
do you actually listen to the input given by those with experience who attempt to share it with you. You take their words, turn them around, obfuscate them in non-essentials, pull out some quote from Crowley, and then punctuate it with the anti-occult version of "Checkmate, Atheists!"

You assume that I have no experience.  That's curious.  Again is this me not toeing the line?  You said it's a public forum and I agree variety is the spice of it all.  Do you want a forum where everyone agrees with everything everyone says?  You can find that sort of thing in a cult.  I am open to perceiving your views.

"Tao" wrote:
As demonstrated above, this has been your claim since the beginning. No amount of discussion or revelation of contrary points has changed that. At every step of the discussion, you have done what you can to re-frame the points made into your own preferred paradigm. You have conveniently ignored the repeated foundation of those counterpoints, so eloquently presented by Azidonis above, and instead focused on ways to twist the supporting material to fit within your box. You are not actually processing the replies because you are focused only on ways to get the words to fit your definition.
.

In your opinion in your perception yes.    Look I appreciate your massive reply here  I really do but I reiterate; my points are cogent and I have adequately faced and analysed the input of others and presented logical explanations of why and how I may disagree or agree.  You say reframing I say debating.  I asked a genuine question.

"Tao" wrote:
This has nothing to do with memes, this has to do with the tactics described above. You posted a rhetorical question in the header of a thread and no real information in the body of your OP..

 

which is why I have since amended and offered my definition of initiation.  No real info in the OP?  I opened up a discussion with a question and with interesting quotes and citations.  You think I should've instead used the following thread-title; "I am not 100% convinced that initiation and psychotherapy (ie confrontation of the sub-conscious garbage- can) are completely at odds with each other.  What do you think?"  I'm not being sarcastic but it was easier to word it as I worded it ie "is there a difference? What do you think?  I don't think I have ever seen you create a thread.  If you ever do I will use it as a blueprint of how to go about constructing an OP.

"Tao" wrote:
In the Fama Fraternitatis, the first oath of the members of the FRC is: "That none of them should profess any other thing, then to cure the sick, and that gratis." In your own Holy Book, Liber Legis, Nuit promises that, if her directions are followed: "This shall regenerate the world, the little world my sister, my heart & my tongue, unto whom I send this kiss." As you say, the notions of health and magic are intertwined throughout history. What does that have to do with psychotherapy?

Now we're getting somewhere (imo that is).  Answer: Everything.  Pain relief.  Caring.

"Tao" wrote:
]From JW Parson's "we are the witchcraft"

]WE ARE THE WITCHCRAFT. We are the oldest organization in the world. When man was born, we were.  We sang the first cradle song. We healed the first wound, we comforted the first terror. Again: What does this have to do with psychotherapy?
.

Everything.  C'mon.  Think of the compassionate Christ and how they brought him an epileptic to deal with.

"Tao" wrote:
Like I said, Alan Watts said that Crowley aspired to be some sort of Hermetic healer.
Citation, please?
.

 
I believe Watts himself said this in his bio.  When I read it again I will give you the page number.

"Tao" wrote:
And, while we wait: Why do you equate "Hermetic healer" specifically to psychotherapy out of all the possible branches of the healing arts? Why do you assume that this action of healing is identical to Initiation rather than a result of the process of Initiation?
.

because Watts was discussing Crowley and Crowley wrote about initiation and dealt with the realm of the mind/ the psyche didn't he?  He wasn't for example a chiropodist or a hair-removal therapist.

"Tao" wrote:
Actually, the root meaning of Neshama is "breath", not "deep self". Within my definition, I clarified it as the "spiritual aspect of Self". Nowhere do I suggest that "Light" is the Neshamic aspect of Self nor would I agree with that definition. Light is Light. Khabs. Konx. L.V.X. It is that thing that makes the comparison to psychotherapy inexplicable..

I believe that Regardie attributed L.V.X. to orgone itself.  Repressed emotions block orgone but it may be that orgone can be mobilized by breath work so in that case what you are saying is the initiating force of  L.V.X. exists on a different plane to the subconscious garbage can?  I appreciate that and am beginning to understand your model where there is a dichotomy between initiation and psychotherapy.    I suppose if mentally ill people can be initiates then yes there is a dichotomy between psychotherapy and initiation in that regards.           


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Tao
 Tao
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23/01/2015 3:10 am  
"david" wrote:
I said something akin to "good point Jamie" as he began to sway my view.  I also openly accepted the notion that "the Light" that initiates is a completely neutral "force" that the afflicted can invoke.  As the thread progressed though I analysed those notions and couldn't convince myself beyond reasonable doubt that such a "force" is actually divorced from the psyche.  I would posit that initiation is an advanced form of "sub-conscious garbage-can confrontation" (otherwise known as psychotherapy.)  A continuation.  However if someone afflicted tries to do advanced therapy without preliminary work then I guesse they are still classified as initiates aren't they?  I see your point about there being a difference but I am simply discussing the similarities as an exercise in an attempt to define both terms.

No, they would not be classed as Initiates. But, then again, that is utilising the definition that Initiates use for "Initiation". Since you are on a quest to define the word for yourself in a way that equates it to psychotherapy, I suppose that won't really mean much for your purposes. So, sure... continue seeing this as a case of the "afflicted" cleaning out their "garbage can". Whatever works for you.

"Tao" wrote:
You assume that I have no experience.  That's curious.

In these two areas, yes I do. This is gleaned from your writing in which you have acknowledged that you have never undergone formal initiation (and have shown a general aversion to group magical work) but qualified it with the suggestion that you might be open to joining the O.T.O. or A.'.A.'. sometime in the future. You have also acknowledged taking the part of the analysed in a psychotheraputic relationship but not the trained analyst. Have I misread you?

"Tao" wrote:
In the Fama Fraternitatis, the first oath of the members of the FRC is: "That none of them should profess any other thing, then to cure the sick, and that gratis." In your own Holy Book, Liber Legis, Nuit promises that, if her directions are followed: "This shall regenerate the world, the little world my sister, my heart & my tongue, unto whom I send this kiss." As you say, the notions of health and magic are intertwined throughout history. What does that have to do with psychotherapy?

Now we're getting somewhere (imo that is).  Answer: Everything.  Pain relief.  Caring.

Those are both descriptors of healing. Why psychotherapy specifically?

"Tao" wrote:
]From JW Parson's "we are the witchcraft"

]WE ARE THE WITCHCRAFT. We are the oldest organization in the world. When man was born, we were.  We sang the first cradle song. We healed the first wound, we comforted the first terror. Again: What does this have to do with psychotherapy?
.

Everything.  C'mon.  Think of the compassionate Christ and how they brought him an epileptic to deal with.

You're suggesting that Jesus healed the epileptic with psychotherapy?

I believe Watts himself said this in his bio.  When I read it again I will give you the page number.

A simple citation of source document would suffice for now. Watts' bio? What does that mean?

"Tao" wrote:
And, while we wait: Why do you equate "Hermetic healer" specifically to psychotherapy out of all the possible branches of the healing arts? Why do you assume that this action of healing is identical to Initiation rather than a result of the process of Initiation?
.

because Watts was discussing Crowley and Crowley wrote about initiation and dealt with the realm of the mind/ the psyche didn't he?  He wasn't for example a chiropodist or a hair-removal therapist.

Nor was he a psychotherapist. He was a poet, mountain climber, chess master, philanderer, and general bon vivant. From my limited exposure, it's clear that Crowley wrote about much more than the mind/psyche. If you are interpreting his writings as only describing the mind/psyche... well then that's a whole other discussion about the man AC that has little to do with the timeless Path of Initiation that long preceded him and will continue long after he is forgotten.

I believe that Regardie attributed L.V.X. to orgone itself.  Repressed emotions block orgone but it may be that orgone can be mobilized by breath work so in that case what you are saying is the initiating force of  L.V.X. exists on a different plane to the subconscious garbage can?

Repressed emotions are one class of things that can block orgone/LVX but they are not exclusive in that regard. To extend the Regardie angle introduced earlier, it is the surfacing and healing of these repressed emotions that constitutes the psychotheraphy which he saw as essential prior to Initiation; getting rid of the blocks that standard means can get rid of. That way, one is freed up to pursue the actual Work of Initiation without mundane restrictions.

I suppose if mentally ill people can be initiates then yes there is a dichotomy between psychotherapy and initiation in that regards.           

Srsly? That's what you're going to end with? Mon Dieu!


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newneubergOuch2
(@newneubergouch2)
Member
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 287
23/01/2015 3:52 am  

I have been following this thread still and have yet to concretize my thoughts.

The title expressly says psychotherapy.

A phrase that has come to my mind is

- where psychotherapy ends, magic/k continues.


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