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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
22/07/2013 6:01 pm  
"jamie barter" wrote:
Didn’t A.C. state somewhere that he wanted to reincarnate as a woman, an avatar of Babalon as it were, perhaps, next time around?  I cannot place the reference myself, maybe someone else can? (I’ve an idea Motta may have referred to it, possibly)

KG makes reference to this, but I don't recall him citing a source for it.  Specifically, AC was to reincarnate as an Asian female.....mmmm, Asian chicks!  😛


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
22/07/2013 6:43 pm  
"jamie barter" wrote:
What do I mean when I say that I think I was Eliphaz Levi?  No more than that I possess some of his essential characteristics, and that some of the incidents in his life are remembered by me as my own.  There doesn’t seem any impossibility about these bundles of Sankhara being shared by two or more persons.  We certainly do not know enough of what actually takes place to speak positively on any such point.  Don’t lose any sleep over it.

(From Chapter 37, “Death – Fear – Magical Memory” in Magick Without Tears.)[/align:xljm1kl6]
N. Joy

I think this quote sums up neatly some of Crowley's views on the subject of reincarnation, especially the part where he seems to be very open on the possibility of "Bundles of Sankhara being shared by two or more persons"

But from what point of view one should take perspective on this claim?
Certainly for a Master (i.e someone who has crossed the Abyss) subject of reincarnation must be quite irrelevant, because the grade must be at least metaphysically thought to be beyond sequential existence that is endowed with a past, present and future. In terms of Qabalah, these stages come relevant much later on "below the Abyss".

From this perspective, for the one who is beyond space and causality, all of these states must appear to exist simultaneously.

People who believe in the subject of reincarnation believe that the same being can be born more than once in a human body.
I think we can all agree on the fact that Crowley had much more different views on what a being is than your typical New-Age chap.


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Los
 Los
(@los)
Member
Joined: 12 years ago
Posts: 2195
22/07/2013 7:03 pm  
"jamie barter" wrote:
My former wife used to do “healing” – present and remote.  Worked for me sometimes, for whatever reason.

No, it didn't. You got sick/hurt and then got better, just like everyone does, all the time. That your wife did some kind of daft "healing" in between is not a demonstration that the "healing" had anything to do with the natural process of getting better, which happens all the time without any "magic." 

A.C.’s opinion…and yours… and mine… who’s right??!? (see Moby Dick above)

If you're seriously suggesting that there's no way to determine whose opinion is correct on a particular issue, you've got bigger problems than debating reincarnation....

Incidentally, I know that Lashtal is not meant to be “an occult site”, yet there are three whopping great boards to do with the Typhonians and one to do with the whole subject of “Magick”… It strikes me that there seems to be “occult” and there is also “occult”…

The site deals with Crowley and his legacy...this legacy includes his students and people inspired by him (even if I, personally, think that many of these folks have virtually nothing to do with Thelema, which is my primary interest in Crowley's legacy).

Discussions of those figures and matters, insofar as they are relevant to an exploration of Crowley's legacy, are fine. As part of such discussions, "occult" topics may come up, but the focus isn't on the ins-and-outs of the occult specifically.

My understanding is that, for example, a discussion of Crowley's beliefs -- and substantial doubts -- about the reality of reincarnation would be perfectly appropriate for this site, as would a discussion of the text and practice of Liber ThIShARB or a discussion of its place in Crowley's body of work (and the historical and biographical context surrounding its writing, along with textual history, history of its use, etc.). To a certain extent, discussing methods that Crowley-influenced groups have developed based on Crowley's techniques might also be appropriate.

What's not appropriate would be posting up your own home-grown rituals for generating these fantasies, posting your elaborate fantasies about who you think you used to be, or posting a bunch of speculative "metaphysical" nonsense about the supposed mechanisms of these ridiculous beliefs ("supported," naturally, by gibberings loaded with [likely faulty] gemetria).

Now, the Temple of Thelema forums, on the other hand, would not only welcome such posts, they'd all pat you on the back, tell you you're a special little snowflake, and encourage you to pay no mind to the mean ol' "rationalists" who are always spoiling the fun by pointing out facts.


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the_real_simon_iff
(@the_real_simon_iff)
Member
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 1836
22/07/2013 8:28 pm  
"N.O.X" wrote:
Well, if you read my post again, I quoted the most interesting part (to me) and related it to a Typhonian concept.  As you and everyone else here knows that it the particular Path that I'm "into", so it shouldn't have really been all that "strange".

93, N.O.X.

No wonder I found it strange, I overread that. My fault. It is quite normal that I find some posts silly and some good and I rarely let the forum know. But to me Az' post was kind of bar-room level, just like "all politicians lie", "you can't trust any banker", "religions are the source of all evil" or stuff like that. Just over the top. I prefer talking "E-prime" in these cases.

The magical power of language as well as its overcoming are quite interesting to me also. But I must confess I do not know too much about the Typhonian current.

Cheers!

Love=Law
Lutz


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the_real_simon_iff
(@the_real_simon_iff)
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Posts: 1836
22/07/2013 8:53 pm  

93!

As so often, AC found the perfect words: Don't lose any sleep over it. It doesn't make anyone a "better" or "worse" Thelemite if you engage yourself in analysing your memories, fantasies, past lives or future destinies. It's what we all experience to some degree. It's part of the joy to be alive. But concluding from this that you are somewhat special and anyone disagreeing is a fool, as well as concluding that this is utter nonsense and anyone disagreeing has no idea of Thelema, just culminates in illusions of grandeur. What you make of it is important.

Love=law
Lutz


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MoogPlayer
(@moogplayer)
Member
Joined: 9 years ago
Posts: 86
23/07/2013 12:07 am  
"jamie barter" wrote:
My former wife used to do “healing” – present and remote.  Worked for me sometimes, for whatever reason.  And that, I suppose, is the acid test…

I assume you took medicine too? How do you know it wasn't the medicine? And if you didn't take anything, how do you know your body didn't just fight it off naturally? This is much more likely.

Giving credit to magic, is like what christians do when they pray. If it works, it's proof of miracles and god, etc.. If not, they say it "wasn't gods will". I guess the fluffy new age equivalent would be something like "it was my will for that spell to work", or "it wasn't my will for it to work"?

Sometimes it rains too, and I could tell me friends "look, if i hop around on one foot long enough it will stop raining, it works", that doesn't mean it really works.

It's not proof of anything. If your interested, google and see that studies have shown that prayer didn't really help people who were seriously ill. In some cases it made them worse. Also look up the faith healing parents who were arrested in Pennsylvania and Oregon for letting their children die instead of taking them to the doctors.

Claims like this amount to practicing medicine without a license and anyone claiming any sort of witch-doctory should probably be checked out by authorities.

The moral here would seem to be (evidentially-based), to avoid these type of phenomena one should give up motoring around…  Unless the A.A. is going to be guaranteed to come out and render assistance to your ka, of course…

No, the moral is to avoid the snake oil salesman.

I certainly wouldn't trust anyone who's teaching or healing credentials come from the "college" of thelema, as they are not an accredited school. I especially would not trust someone who proudly announces they once completed EST seminars, or gives praises to groups like Landmark Education.

And If I knew that this person was once a member of other orders, before randomly up-and deciding to start his own overtly religious version (with a very similar story to Erhard's, who formed the very same EST self-help group that this person once attended), I would further be suspicious.

Also if this person made claims to be the legitimate head of a debunked victorian secret society, through an astral link with imaginary friends, I would be very cautious about accepting them as seriously knowing what they are talking about.

And if this very same person was regularly making odd ball claims about reincarnation, magical rituals, angles, efficacy of prayer, etc. I would likely start to question their sanity.

The fact that this person also used to hold a very mundane vocation (workers comp lawyer) before becoming a magical guru, may be regarded by some as a tell-tale sign. (Erhard was a used car salesman, Hubbard a sci-fi author, Blavatsky a circus side show assistant, etc.)

Now, I'm absolutely not calling Eshelman out as a fraud or snake oil salesman, but I leave it up to any honest inquisitor to consider the above publicly known facts and decide for themselves whether or not they would join his organization.

If Crowley is such, how come you are contributing here?  Are you “anti” The Beast and his teaching (in which case, maybe you should expect the direful judgements of RHK?)

I'm just stating the facts. Crowley was no role model. A lot of what he wrote and said and did was just straight up horse shit.

Crowley will always be a fascinating character to me. One of many throughout history. I can take from his message of individuality, and will, and love, without having to buy into anything else. I have always found him to be way more interesting than Blavatsky and Mathers, who bore the crap out of me. The Beast was still a human though, and not without his faults.

It is always a possibility, although a slim one.

This is a very poor argument. Do I need to make another reference to the Flying Spaghetti Monster?

OK, what would be the best choice of words?  You’ve got a whole dictionary to chose from…

I'm not sure what I would have said personally. Either way, Crowley put in his own words that he was choosing "patently absurd" terms which he hoped would not be misinterpreted... too bad for us that's exactly what people are doing. I suppose if he were a real prophet though, he would have had the clairvoyance to see that one coming.

"MoogPlayer" wrote:
Crowley's suggestion of curriculum and rituals was just that, suggestions.

And -?

And, they may not be very good suggestions. I have met many people who follow all of Crowley's words to a T, parroting every line and gesture. They are no closer to True Will, or happiness, or enlightenment than any of the other poor religious saps I see filling the churches, mosques, and synagogues.

I'm essentially saying that Crowley's suggestions about how to achieve what he was talking about, can be firmly separated from what he might have actually been talking about... and ironically, he may not of even known what he was talking about when it comes to instructing other people. Just because he did some good work or had valuable insights, says nothing about his aptitude for helping other people learn.

No, not an M.D.  But he ran and operated some kind of a clinical practice from Great Portland Street in London in the ’30s (see “Amrita” [Teitan Press] for further details and “case studies”)

He was not a doctor of anything. Not of psychology, or medicine, or law, or even any of the BS degrees like theology or philosophy. He was a college drop out, plain and simple.

What he was doing in his "clinical" practices would have been regarding as practicing medicine without a license in todays world. He could have been fined and arrested. If he were a real doctor, and he tried to do that, he could have lost his license to practice as well.

"MoogPlayer" wrote:
He didn't know much more about what he was talking about than the average joe, and he was greatly "inhibited" by todays standard, considering the knowledge available at the time.

And you do, I take it?

Of course I do! In fact, my little brother with nothing more than an iPad and an internet connection has more access to information/knowledge than anyone alive in Crowley's lifetime or before it.

But this contradicts your sentence before last, viz. he didn’t know (much) what he was talking about…

He may not have been qualified to speak on some of the subjects that he did, but I believe he had the gist of what he was trying to say.

Incidentally, I know that Lashtal is not meant to be “an occult site”, yet there are three whopping great boards to do with the Typhonians and one to do with the whole subject of “Magick”… It strikes me that there seems to be “occult” and there is also “occult”…

Occult just means hidden. In the past people really did wonder about certain things, like where the sun went at night. Why people got sick, how the weather and seasons changed, etc. This led to people making lots of faulty assumptions. As time winds on, some of those mysteries become solved and we find new mysteries to solve.

Today I don't think that reincarnation or life after death need to be a mystery. Seasons changing, people getting sick, the geography of the earth, are not easily explained by magic and fairies. It's not occult stuff anymore. Frankly, there are new things to be fascinated with, like black holes.


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Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 3951
23/07/2013 12:23 am  
"Los" wrote:
Now, the Temple of Thelema forums, on the other hand, would not only welcome such posts, they'd all pat you on the back, tell you you're a special little snowflake, and encourage you to pay no mind to the mean ol' "rationalists" who are always spoiling the fun by pointing out facts.

Take it to heruraha.net.

I doubt that LAShTAL is the appropriate place for your vulgur chest-beating, willy-waving remarks about Jim Eshelman and his website. Why don't you take up the matter with Eshelman, and leave the rest of us out of it?


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MoogPlayer
(@moogplayer)
Member
Joined: 9 years ago
Posts: 86
23/07/2013 12:43 am  

On the subject of reincarnation...

How do we account for the current world population? There are more people alive now than ever, and so if people really are reincarnating, you'd wonder where are they are all coming from? Do advocates of reincarnation believe there are a lot of first time incarnates? Where were they all before? Surely not everything that is conscious amounts to the number of potential souls there are to be reincarnated?

Do people reincarnate from other planets to this one and away from this one? How do people who believe in reincarnation think this works? It's such an absurd topic, I really wonder what kind of theoretical hokum is being spun around. Let's hear some answers from the reincarnation believers!

And about ghosts... with all the people who have died in the past, if ghosts were real, wouldn't the world be peopled with them like 10 to 1? Wouldn't there be so many ghosts that it would be impossible not to see and run into ghosts all the time?


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the_real_simon_iff
(@the_real_simon_iff)
Member
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 1836
23/07/2013 8:50 am  
"MichaelStaley" wrote:
Why don't you take up the matter with Eshelman, and leave the rest of us out of it?

Because it is their mission to save us kooky occultists and show us the truth? And while they think that us kooky occultists are offended by their "pointing out of facts", it is obvious that they are offended that we do not believe them. This might be a special form of a saviour complex.

"MoogPlayer" wrote:
How do we account for the current world population? There are more people alive now than ever, and so if people really are reincarnating, you'd wonder where are they are all coming from? Do advocates of reincarnation believe there are a lot of first time incarnates? Where were they all before? Surely not everything that is conscious amounts to the number of potential souls there are to be reincarnated?Do people reincarnate from other planets to this one and away from this one?

Well, you probably should gather some information about the various reincarnation concepts before you judge them. Because frankly, these questions/arguments are kindergarden level. Which seems to be the only level you like to approach stuff you regard as "kooky".

"MoogPlayer" wrote:
with all the people who have died in the past, if ghosts were real, wouldn't the world be peopled with them like 10 to 1?

It's actually 11 to 1.

"MoogPlayer" wrote:
Wouldn't there be so many ghosts that it would be impossible not to see and run into ghosts all the time?

But that's what happening! As a scientist you should know that if a being is invisible you cannot see it. But if there are billions of invisible beings very close together than you SURELY MUST SEE THEM! It's common scientific knowledge.

Love=Law
Lutz


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jamie barter
(@jamie-barter)
Member
Joined: 8 years ago
Posts: 1688
23/07/2013 12:48 pm  
"Los" wrote:
"jamie barter" wrote:
My former wife used to do “healing” – present and remote.  Worked for me sometimes, for whatever reason.

No, it didn't. You got sick/hurt and then got better, just like everyone does, all the time. That your wife did some kind of daft "healing" in between is not a demonstration that the "healing" had anything to do with the natural process of getting better, which happens all the time without any "magic."

I had the feeling that someone – not specifically you, Los,or moogplayer, but you would both have been in my top three – would quibble about this.  Of course, I agree with everything you say – here, and a lot elsewhere.  I don’t know how old you are, but I used to think a lot along similar lines to yourself when I had a more ‘nihilist’ point of view – at around 22.  But that’s not the whole picture.  You restrict your viewpoint by seemingly obstinately refusing to open your doors of perception a bit more.  Or can it be at all possible you are the one who is taking the monumental piss out of the whole lot of us?

"Los" wrote:

A.C.’s opinion…and yours… and mine… who’s right??!? (see Moby Dick above)

If you're seriously suggesting that there's no way to determine whose opinion is correct on a particular issue, you've got bigger problems than debating reincarnation....

Are you therefore saying your opinion (or anyone’s) is therefore necessarily “correct”, i.e., absolute and incontrovertible?  If so, then you’ve got bigger problems than debating reincarnation…

"Los" wrote:

Incidentally, I know that Lashtal is not meant to be “an occult site”, yet there are three whopping great boards to do with the Typhonians and one to do with the whole subject of “Magick”… It strikes me that there seems to be “occult” and there is also “occult”…

The site deals with Crowley and his legacy...this legacy includes his students and people inspired by him (even if I, personally, think that many of these folks have virtually nothing to do with Thelema, which is my primary interest in Crowley's legacy).

Discussions of those figures and matters, insofar as they are relevant to an exploration of Crowley's legacy, are fine. As part of such discussions, "occult" topics may come up, but the focus isn't on the ins-and-outs of the occult specifically.

My understanding is that, for example, a discussion of Crowley's beliefs -- and substantial doubts -- about the reality of reincarnation would be perfectly appropriate for this site, as would a discussion of the text and practice of Liber ThIShARB or a discussion of its place in Crowley's body of work (and the historical and biographical context surrounding its writing, along with textual history, history of its use, etc.). To a certain extent, discussing methods that Crowley-influenced groups have developed based on Crowley's techniques might also be appropriate.

What's not appropriate would be posting up your own home-grown rituals for generating these fantasies, posting your elaborate fantasies about who you think you used to be, or posting a bunch of speculative "metaphysical" nonsense about the supposed mechanisms of these ridiculous beliefs ("supported," naturally, by gibberings loaded with [likely faulty] gemetria).

Now, the Temple of Thelema forums, on the other hand, would not only welcome such posts, they'd all pat you on the back, tell you you're a special little snowflake, and encourage you to pay no mind to the mean ol' "rationalists" who are always spoiling the fun by pointing out facts.

Long may you rattle their cages when you take it to the limit, I mean heruraha.net.  And may you not get savaged too badly…!

"ayino" wrote:
"jamie barter" wrote:
What do I mean when I say that I think I was Eliphaz Levi?  No more than that I possess some of his essential characteristics, and that some of the incidents in his life are remembered by me as my own.  There doesn’t seem any impossibility about these bundles of Sankhara being shared by two or more persons.  We certainly do not know enough of what actually takes place to speak positively on any such point.  Don’t lose any sleep over it.

(From Chapter 37, “Death – Fear – Magical Memory” in Magick Without Tears.)[/align:kxf9paid]
N. Joy

I think this quote sums up neatly some of Crowley's views on the subject of reincarnation, especially the part where he seems to be very open on the possibility of "Bundles of Sankhara being shared by two or more persons" ...

People who believe in the subject of reincarnation believe that the same being can be born more than once in a human body.
I think we can all agree on the fact that Crowley had much more different views on what a being is than your typical New-Age chap.

Of course, this opens the flood doors to all those people who claim to be the reincarnation of Uncle Al.  Now there is no reason for there to be just one of them!! Didn’t Grady McMurtry, right at the beginning of the Caliphornian O.T.O.’s infancy, instuitute a “Great Wild Beast Furtherment Society” which specifically included members who thought they were his reincarnation?  If so, I wonder what happened to it/ them… "Not that I will be losing any sleep"…

"MoogPlayer" wrote:
"jamie barter" wrote:
My former wife used to do “healing” – present and remote.  Worked for me sometimes, for whatever reason.  And that, I suppose, is the acid test…

I assume you took medicine too? How do you know it wasn't the medicine? And if you didn't take anything, how do you know your body didn't just fight it off naturally? This is much more likely.

Giving credit to magic, is like what christians do when they pray. If it works, it's proof of miracles and god, etc.. If not, they say it "wasn't gods will". I guess the fluffy new age equivalent would be something like "it was my will for that spell to work", or "it wasn't my will for it to work"?

Sometimes it rains too, and I could tell me friends "look, if i hop around on one foot long enough it will stop raining, it works", that doesn't mean it really works.

It's not proof of anything. If your interested, google and see that studies have shown that prayer didn't really help people who were seriously ill. In some cases it made them worse. Also look up the faith healing parents who were arrested in Pennsylvania and Oregon for letting their children die instead of taking them to the doctors.

Claims like this amount to practicing medicine without a license and anyone claiming any sort of witch-doctory should probably be checked out by authorities.

Further to my reply to Los above on my sharing of my former wife’s thaumaturgical prowess - yes: where would all the medicine-men, shaman and apothecaries in the world have been without that vital scrap of paper, their “licence” to practice?  “Checked out by the authorities” – why yes, that’s a good idea, let’s let that happen.  And how about all those that are found guilty of infringement, we’ll damned well not tolerate it & get rid of them - maybe we should burn them at the stake or stick ’em in the showers?

"MoogPlayer" wrote:

It is always a possibility, although a slim one.

This is a very poor argument. Do I need to make another reference to the Flying Spaghetti Monster?

Look, if you want to believe in the spaghetti monster that’s your affair.  Each to their own - do that & no other shall whinny neigh.  We’re not all going to agree your particular point of view, so if that’s what you imagine you can just fack orf (if you will pardon my lapse into the vernacular).  Unless anyone else wants to quibble pointlessly on these & several other issues which you mention, of course.  Forgive me, moogplayer, if I do not address every single line of your thoughtful reply, but two other things jump out at me:

"MoogPlayer" wrote:

No, not an M.D.  But he ran and operated some kind of a clinical practice from Great Portland Street in London in the ’30s (see “Amrita” [Teitan Press] for further details and “case studies”)

He was not a doctor of anything. Not of psychology, or medicine, or law, or even any of the BS degrees like theology or philosophy. He was a college drop out, plain and simple.

What he was doing in his "clinical" practices would have been regarding as practicing medicine without a license in todays world. He could have been fined and arrested. If he were a real doctor, and he tried to do that, he could have lost his license to practice as well.

Yes, he may have been regarded as a quack these days, or even then by some.  I personally find this episode one of the most fascinating (and obscure) of his career, and it gives the lie to people who think that by the time the old boy came back to England at the end of the 20s he was a spent force.  As a matter of fact, since my girlfriend lives just by the "site" of his former clinic at 142 Great Portland Street, I pass by it several times a week.  The ooky thing is, there is no sign at all of the number as they jump from 140 to 144 (evens).  Now it is more likely that these were reassigned at some time by the metropolitan authority of Westminster council than the clinic's offices disappeared into a space-time vacuum, but still...

"MoogPlayer" wrote:

Incidentally, I know that Lashtal is not meant to be “an occult site”, yet there are three whopping great boards to do with the Typhonians and one to do with the whole subject of “Magick”… It strikes me that there seems to be “occult” and there is also “occult”…

Occult just means hidden.

Well fan me down with a kipper - I never knew that!  Well, in fact I did, I am being ironic here,  & it was the main point I was making at the beginning – i.e., neither lashtal nor heruraha are hidden, they are in wide open view so it is pointless saying neither of them are an occult site.  Maybe that lashtal does not wish to “discuss occult issues” would be a bit more accurate, although at some point it would need to be defined exactly what these are in the context of the remarks made above.

N. Joy


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Los
 Los
(@los)
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Joined: 12 years ago
Posts: 2195
23/07/2013 2:06 pm  
"jamie barter" wrote:
Are you therefore saying your opinion (or anyone’s) is therefore necessarily “correct”, i.e., absolute and incontrovertible?

No. I'm saying that when the opinion in question deals with an issue of fact -- such as, say, whether anyone (including you) has sufficient grounds to think that your wife actually healed you -- there is a way to objectively decide the issue, at least with the evidence that we currently have.

You posts seem to imply that you think belief is just a matter of an individual selecting the kind of world he'd prefer to live in -- one where spooks cavort unseen or where reincarnation is real or where rituals can heal people or find their lost cat -- as if people could just pull their beliefs out of a hat and there would be no way for anyone to tell which belief is likely to be accurate.

The Great Work teaches one the opposite of this: there are facts about the world (and about one's own Self and Will), and the goal of the Work is to discover these things, rather than veil them with daft beliefs.

The word "occult" indeed means hidden, but rather than gaining an insight into the ways their minds hide reality from them, people who practice the occult more usually seem to practice methods of hiding that reality more fully from themselves.


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jamie barter
(@jamie-barter)
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Joined: 8 years ago
Posts: 1688
23/07/2013 2:38 pm  
"Los" wrote:
"jamie barter" wrote:
Are you therefore saying your opinion (or anyone’s) is therefore necessarily “correct”, i.e., absolute and incontrovertible?

No. I'm saying that when the opinion in question deals with an issue of fact -- such as, say, whether anyone (including you) has sufficient grounds to think that your wife actually healed you -- there is a way to objectively decide the issue, at least with the evidence that we currently have.

Yes, quite right here, up to a point!  But how “objective” is objective?

"Los" wrote:
Your posts seem to imply that you think belief is just a matter of an individual selecting the kind of world he'd prefer to live in -- one where spooks cavort unseen or where reincarnation is real or where rituals can heal people or find their lost cat -- as if people could just pull their beliefs out of a hat and there would be no way for anyone to tell which belief is likely to be accurate.

Yes, quite right here, up to a point!  But why is there a need “for anyone [else] to tell which belief is likely to be accurate”?

"Los" wrote:
The Great Work teaches one the opposite of this: there are facts about the world (and about one's own Self and Will), and the goal of the Work is to discover these things, rather than veil them with daft beliefs.

“Facts” – ever heard Crosseyed and Painless, by the Talking Heads, off "Remain In Light"?  Study those lyrics…

"Los" wrote:
The word "occult" indeed means hidden, but rather than gaining an insight into the ways their minds hide reality from them, people who practice the occult more usually seem to practice methods of hiding that reality more fully from themselves.

Yes, quite right here.

"N.O.X" wrote:
"jamie barter" wrote:
Didn’t A.C. state somewhere that he wanted to reincarnate as a woman, an avatar of Babalon as it were, perhaps, next time around?  I cannot place the reference myself, maybe someone else can? (I’ve an idea Motta may have referred to it, possibly)

KG makes reference to this, but I don't recall him citing a source for it.  Specifically, AC was to reincarnate as an Asian female.....mmmm, Asian chicks!  😛

Mmm, yes, Trés nice!  😛

N. Joy!


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Los
 Los
(@los)
Member
Joined: 12 years ago
Posts: 2195
23/07/2013 3:09 pm  
"jamie barter" wrote:
But how “objective” is objective?

Well, it's objectively the case that nobody -- including you -- has sufficient grounds for thinking that you were "healed" by any ritual. Now, that's not "absolute" because some evidence could turn up tomorrow that forces us to reconsider that conclusion, but as it stands right now, it's objectively the case that nobody has sufficient grounds for thinking that you were "healed" by such.

But why is there a need “for anyone [else] to tell which belief is likely to be accurate”?

There's not. There's a "need" for people (at least for those people who want to practice Thelema intelligently) to have as accurate a picture of themselves and the world as possible (which involves correctly evaluating claims).

Personally, I could care less what you believe in your private life. My only interest is in responding to what people say in public. And if you say in public that you believe something that nobody, including you, has sufficient grounds for accepting, then you should expect to be called out on that by somebody.


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Shiva
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23/07/2013 4:04 pm  
"MoogPlayer" wrote:
How do we account for the current world population? There are more people alive now than ever ...

(1) Antibiotics!
(2) Increased medical care worldwide - the "first world" seems intent on supplying the "third world" with medical care, so that millions who would have died if left to their original environment would have died. They then go on to reproduce like insects, bringing children into poverty-ridden squalor - so that the "first world" feels the need to save them. You see the never-ending cycle that leads to over-population?

(3) Reincarnation has nothing to do with it. That's just wishful thinking whereby lonely, scared people envision immortality in a mortal coil.

(4) Wars and accidents continue, just like in the past. But more people survive due mainly to antibiotics - and they then go on to reproduce like rabbits.


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jamie barter
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23/07/2013 4:40 pm  
"Los" wrote:
"jamie barter" wrote:
But how “objective” is objective?

Well, it's objectively the case that nobody -- including you -- has sufficient grounds for thinking that you were "healed" by any ritual. Now, that's not "absolute" because some evidence could turn up tomorrow that forces us to reconsider that conclusion, but as it stands right now, it's objectively the case that nobody has sufficient grounds for thinking that you were "healed" by such.

Yes – “as it stands right now”.  That position is not true for all time, it can change into anything – even conceivably a pile of spaghetti (highly highly unlikely though) – which is rather the impression you haven’t given?

"Los" wrote:

But why is there a need “for anyone [else] to tell which belief is likely to be accurate”?

There's not. There's a "need" for people (at least for those people who want to practice Thelema intelligently) to have as accurate a picture of themselves and the world as possible (which involves correctly evaluating claims).

Personally, I could care less what you believe in your private life. My only interest is in responding to what people say in public. And if you say in public that you believe something that nobody, including you, has sufficient grounds for accepting, then you should expect to be called out on that by somebody.

I cannot disagree with your actual answer here – it “sounds good” – up to a point; that point being your last sentence.  You are saying that “you” have no grounds for “accepting” what I choose to believe – well, I actually accept that you naturally might feel that, which is more than you appear to yourself.  Why exactly should I “expect” to be “called out” for what I believe?  If I am – like you are doing now – that is fair enough, it either happens or it doesn’t, but nobody has a cast iron case for calling anyone out & then saying that their own point of view is paramount, or any more significant than their own.

Have you listened to Remain In Light yet?  It’s a very good album!

"I'm Still waiting"....
N. Joy
N. Joy


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Los
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23/07/2013 5:17 pm  
"jamie barter" wrote:
That position is not true for all time

Well, let's be clear: it's objectively the best position right now, and it may always objectively remain the best position. There is, of course, a chance (however slim) that we might, one day, discover evidence that will make us reconsider the position, but there's also a chance -- a far better chance, given the evidence we have -- that there will never come to light any evidence that demonstrates that you were healed or that reincarnation is real.

I've given the impression -- accurately -- that my position is the one best-supported by the evidence and that in all likelihood will continue to be supported by evidence.

You are saying that “you” have no grounds for “accepting” what I choose to believe

No, I'm saying that nobody has any sufficient grounds for accepting the claims we've been talking about. "Nobody" includes you, Jamie.

Why exactly should I “expect” to be “called out” for what I believe?

Because when people say ridiculous, unsubstantiated things in public, it's likely that some other person will point out how ridiculous and unsubstantiated those things are. 

nobody has a cast iron case for calling anyone out & then saying that their own point of view is paramount

I just explained that my position is the objectively correct one here. You're free to try to present an alternate case, but I suspect it will not be a very good one.


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jamie barter
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23/07/2013 5:38 pm  

I will have to go in a minute from the PC I am using, and unfortunately cannot keep this exchange up all night… But for now,

"Los" wrote:
No, I'm saying that nobody has any sufficient grounds for accepting the claims we've been talking about. "Nobody" includes you, Jamie.

But you are the one who has been arguing, Los!  Hence, I said “you”…

"Los" wrote:

Why exactly should I “expect” to be “called out” for what I believe?

Because when people say ridiculous, unsubstantiated things in public, it's likely that some other person will point out how ridiculous and unsubstantiated those things are.

Yes – some other person who thinks they know better.

"Los" wrote:
"jamie barter" wrote:
That position is not true for all time

Well, let's be clear: it's objectively the best position right now, and it may always objectively remain the best position. There is, of course, a chance (however slim) that we might, one day, discover evidence that will make us reconsider the position, but there's also a chance -- a far better chance, given the evidence we have -- that there will never come to light any evidence that demonstrates that you were healed or that reincarnation is real.

I've given the impression -- accurately -- that my position is the one best-supported by the evidence and that in all likelihood will continue to be supported by evidence.

nobody has a cast iron case for calling anyone out & then saying that their own point of view is paramount

I just explained that my position is the objectively correct one here. You're free to try to present an alternate case, but I suspect it will not be a very good one.

We seem to be arguing about the semantics of objectivity, which could go on & on - do we really want to go down that linguistic minefield?  I can see your point of view; you do not appear to be willing to see mine.  Easier to "agree to disagree", perhaps?

“Facts all come in points of view; facts don’t do what I want them to”
“Facts just twist the truth around; facts are living turned inside out"
“Facts are useless in emergencies [etc]…”

N.Joy.


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Tiger
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23/07/2013 7:49 pm  

rationally incarnate a loop


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lashtal
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23/07/2013 8:38 pm  

For the last time: keep it on topic, guys, or it gets locked.

Owner and Editor
LAShTAL


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Shiva
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23/07/2013 9:32 pm  

So, we find AC telling us "don't lose any sleep over" (reincarnation), as if it's just a fanciful theory ... but we also have that same AC (in Magick Without Tears) saying ...

"Anyhow, there's no such thing as safety. Life is a gamble. From the moment of incarnation a million accidents are possible. Miscarriage, still-birth, abortion; throughout life, until your heart beats for the last time, "you never can tell" - and then you start all over again with your next incarnation!"

and ...

"The construction of this Record is, incidentally, the first step in the practice called Sammasati, and leads to the acquisition of the Magical Memory --- the memory of your previous incarnations."

and ...

"As you will see from the book, this will start you on the discovery of who you really are, and eventually lead you to your recovering the memory of previous incarnations."

and ...

"But I should like you to realize that sooner or later, whether in this incarnation or another, it is put up to you to show perfect courage in face of the completely unknown ..."

and ...

"When you have found out a little about your past incarnations, you should be able to understand this very clearly and simply."

and ...

"... and by the memory of my incarnation as Ankh-f-n-Khonsu, that I use it (with its Graeco-Phoenician child) for all work of supreme import."

Now this (these quotes) pretty much imply that AC bought into reincarnation, as well as incorporated the concept into his teachings. That, of course, doesn't mean it's really real.

In terms of "healing" mentioned above, the "facts" indicate that it does work. For one example, it's used in hospitals in China for serious illnesses, and they have a higher percentage cure-rate than the USA hospitals (Cancer in particular). It does work but, like modern medicine, not always. This subject (healing) is off topic here, so if there's even a single reply to this paragraph, I'll start a new thread.

By the way, I have clear and distinct memories of (at least) two prior lifetimes, one of which has been located in the history books (and museums), similar to AC's Ankh-af-na-khonsu deal ... but on the other hand I find it all to be glamour and illusion, and I don't expect that I (me) will be entering another body in my next incarnation. Hmmm. That sounds rather dualistic, doesn't it? Well, please,  don't lose any sleep over it.


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Markus
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23/07/2013 9:35 pm  

Belief in reincarnation is intimately connected to the belief in the necessity of individual human salvation. So long as one is an imperfect sinner, one will walk in this vale of tears until all imperfection has been cleansed and one is freed from existence. It is no different to the Christian concept of purgatory! This idea also negates the fact that existence is pure joy. (cf. Lib. AL)
The belief in reincarnation is therefore thoroughly old-aeonic.

Furthermore, the belief in reincarnation stands in direct opposition to the opening words of the Tabula Smaragdina: that which is below is like that which is above. If the mortal body disintegrates into dust, then according to Thrice Greatest Hermes, the equivalent must follow for the Divine Spark. It seems plausible that upon death the Divine Spark disintegrates into the Divine, much like a raindrop falling into the ocean.

Accordingly, I consider belief in reincarnation to be un-thelemic and unbeffiting to the Western Mystery Tradition, the latter point thus far only having been made by Julius Evola.

Finally, I believe that reincarnation is a possibility - but, it is the exception, and certainly not the rule.

Markus


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Shiva
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23/07/2013 9:52 pm  
"Markus" wrote:
I consider belief in reincarnation to be un-thelemic ...

Um, "man has the right to believe what he will," etc.
And ... AC, the Thelemic prophet, used it as a refrence in his teachings.
So, it can't be un-Thelemic, for God's sake!

"Markus" wrote:
I believe that reincarnation is a possibility - but, it is the exception, and certainly not the rule.

Does this mean that some people get to reincarnate, while others don't?
This dualistic response of yours is as wishy-washy as my dualistic presentation, for Shaitan's sake!  😉


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Markus
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23/07/2013 10:08 pm  
"Shiva" wrote:
Um, "man has the right to believe what he will," etc.
And ... AC, the Thelemic prophet, used it as a refrence in his teachings.
So, it can't be un-Thelemic, for God's sake!

Thank you for asserting my right to believe what I will. Very Thelemic of you!

Does this mean that some people get to reincarnate, while others don't?
This dualistic response of yours is as wishy-washy as my dualistic presentation, for Shaitan's sake!  😉

You're confusing dualism with sublation, Shiva. Hegel's Logic ought to remedy this. (Incidentally, the Old Sinner reckoned it possible to cross the Abyss with the information of said book!)

Markus

p.S. Yes, some get to reincarnate, others don't. It all depends on the fortification of the mind. But see the esoteric works of Evola for this.


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Los
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23/07/2013 10:39 pm  
"Shiva" wrote:
Now this (these quotes) pretty much imply that AC bought into reincarnation, as well as incorporated the concept into his teachings.

Not when Crowley tells us in other places his approach to these kinds of supernatural claims. From Magick:

"Aleister Crowley" wrote:
Far be it from any apologist for Magick to insist upon the objective validity of these concatenations [about reincarnation]! It would be childish to cling to the belief that Marius de Aquila [one of Crowley's remembered past lives] actually existed; it matters no more that it matters to the mathematician whether the use of the symbol X to the 22 power involves the "reality" of 22 dimension of space. The Master Therion does not care a scrap of yesterday's newspaper whether he was Marius de Aquila, or whether there ever was such a person, or whether the Universe itself is anything more than a nightmare created by his own imprudence in the matter of rum and water. His memory of Marius de Aquila, of the adventures of that person in Rome and the Black Forest, matters nothing, either to him or to anybody else. What matters is this: True or false, he has found a symbolic form which has enabled him to govern himself to the best advantage. "Quantum nobis prodest hec fabula Christi!" The "falsity" of Aesop's Fables does not diminish their value to mankind.

In other words, Crowley's saying that it doesn't matter whether these so-called "memories" actually correspond to real past lives -- it would be "childish" to insist that they did. As ever, the important part for Crowley is the experience, not the supernatural claims made about the experience.

In terms of "healing" mentioned above, the "facts" indicate that it does work.

No, they don't. If you could actually produce a study that demonstrated that -- which you could, if what you were saying were true -- you would be world famous. Please do start a new thread and post some of the evidence that's been published in reputable journals.


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Shiva
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23/07/2013 10:50 pm  
"Markus" wrote:
Hegel's Logic ought to remedy this. ... Yes, some get to reincarnate, others don't. It all depends on the fortification of the mind. But see the esoteric works of Evola for this.

This is not the Hegel Society, nor the Evola Society. Refering readers to possibly unknown phlosophers does not help settle the matter or shed any light on what you are saying (because it's not really clear - I'm sincere here, not playing Shiva-antics).  🙂

I can envision a cosmic plan where some (the elite, the chosen) get to come back into a physical body (one way or another), while other (the slaves, the dogs of reason - those unfortunate wretches) don't go anywhere; sometimes they are said to be taken to Hell, or to another paradigm where they get more time to solve their problems, or to Purgatory. This is a very exclusive club indeed! ... Nah! If the Dalai Lama and those other recognized incarnations get to do it, then so do you and I.

I call for a vote.
(1) Renicarnation is real. (Aye)
(2) Renicarnation is false. (Nay)
(3) Some do / some don't. (Abstain)
(4) I don't know. (Quit)


^ That's a Shiva-antic


New input, not in reply: I once asked Frater Vulcan if he thought reincarnation was the deal. He replied, "Yes. But only within a lifetime." I immediately assigned that answer to the desription of the grades ... That's why people often change their mystical/magickal names at different levels. At each of these levels, they see and handle life from a different perspective. And the transition from one level to the next involves an "initiation" or crisis in consciousness; some part of them actually (consciously) dies and there follows a sense of rebirth. When these crises are presented by initiators in a ceremony, they are hoping (yes, "hoping," not hopping) to influence the candidate and propel him/her into that crisis in real life. Sometimes it seems to work. Realistically, any such ceremony should be given as the result of one having already gone through the transition, but that's not usually the case.

So that scenario I can certainly accept - along with the fact that only some people will/can do this (Ye are my chosen, etc). It's that transmigration of souls thing that is questionable (actual physical reincarnation - with or without memory). Being an old guy, I can say that excessive age is not conducive to the type of effort/energy one had earlier on the path - with it's befliefs and hopes. But that same old age also assists in clearing away many of those same beliefs and hopes. It's simple, but it's complicated, so don't get up early to fuss over it.


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Los
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23/07/2013 11:05 pm  
"Shiva" wrote:
It's that transmigration of souls thing that is questionable (actual physical reincarnation - with or without memory).

Even if it were true that there were some kind of "soul" that jumped from body to body like an episode of Quantum Leap, each incarnation would be, for all intents and purposes, an entirely new person. Even under that scenario, the "you" you are right now will permanently die when your body dies -- it's just that, under that scenario, at best, maybe one or two of your memories will be remembered by someone else who will supposedly get the "soul" that's currently inside you.

The whole thing is totally silly, in addition to being totally unsubstantiated.


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ignant666
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23/07/2013 11:10 pm  
"Los" wrote:
"Aleister Crowley" wrote:
Far be it from any apologist for Magick to insist upon the objective validity of these concatenations [about reincarnation]! It would be childish to cling to the belief that Marius de Aquila [one of Crowley's remembered past lives] actually existed; it matters no more that it matters to the mathematician whether the use of the symbol X to the 22 power involves the "reality" of 22 dimension of space. The Master Therion does not care a scrap of yesterday's newspaper whether he was Marius de Aquila, or whether there ever was such a person, or whether the Universe itself is anything more than a nightmare created by his own imprudence in the matter of rum and water. His memory of Marius de Aquila, of the adventures of that person in Rome and the Black Forest, matters nothing, either to him or to anybody else. What matters is this: True or false, he has found a symbolic form which has enabled him to govern himself to the best advantage. "Quantum nobis prodest hec fabula Christi!" The "falsity" of Aesop's Fables does not diminish their value to mankind.

[emphasis added by ignant666]

In other words, Crowley's saying that it doesn't matter whether these so-called "memories" actually correspond to real past lives -- it would be "childish" to insist that they did. As ever, the important part for Crowley is the experience, not the supernatural claims made about the experience.

Yes , AC does say it would be childish to believe reincarnation is "objectively" true, just as (AC says in your quoted extract) it would be equally childish to believe in the "objective" existence of the sense experiences, aka "reality",  in which you locate your ability to evaluate truth-claims, which you so esteem, and about which you post so endlessly and receptively in online Thelemic forums, including this one, and the so-called-by-you "fruitcake factory".


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Shiva
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23/07/2013 11:12 pm  
"Los" wrote:
Not when Crowley tells us in other places his approach to these kinds of supernatural claims ...

My point is that he takes two stances. In some place(s) he may poo-poo the idea, putting it into some alternative explanation but, clearly, he is also using the concept as part of his teaching - as represented by the various quotes that were posted.

"Los" wrote:
No they don't. If you could actually produce a study that demonstrated that -- which you could, if what you were saying were true -- you would be world famous. Please do start a new thread and post some of the evidence that's been published in reputable journals.

To just say, "It doesn't work," indicates that you have not been reading the right Journals. There are many well-known studies and famous healers. Most of the (United) States and European countries offer LICENSURE as a primary-care medical providers for practitioners of Oriental Medicine. The scope of practice always includes Tai Chi and Qi Gong - these are the healing modalities using Qi (Chi or Ki) as a healing modality. Lovelace Hospital in Albuquerque (part of the medical group that originally tested and treated astronauts) has specially trained nurses on duty, who come around to do energy healing (with their hands) after surgery and other crises. This argument where "energy healing" works or not has already been fought out by the allopathic medical profession (M.D.'s) and the Oriental Medical practitioners (O.M.D.'s) a long time ago. In every jurisdiction where it has been introduced, the Establishment looks and says, "This is amazing - we'll license you and you can bill insurance companies." I'm sure I can find Journal references, and I'll be starting a new incarnation, er, thread on the subject.


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ignant666
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24/07/2013 2:23 am  

Los: sorry, "receptively" in my post above was intended to be "repetitively"; my apologies for missing this typo.


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Cedar
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24/07/2013 4:20 pm  

Past Life Regression
I was introduced to the concept of reincarnation and had a very vivid experience of my previous lives through past life regression by an experienced Hypnotherapist. So profound was the experience I decided to study Hypnotherapy and qualified as a Hypnotherapist myself about thirty years ago and ended up running a very successful private practice in Londons Harley Street for a number of years.. I was made aware of and experienced several incarnations (and violent deaths!) Among them:

One of my earliest recalls was of being taken to Machu Pichu in Peru as a human sacrifice!, I was fully aware of the sights sounds and even the point when a dagger was thrust in my chest, the experience was quite distressing so the Hypnotherapist quickly brought me forward. At some point in my life I hope to visit Machu Pichu to see If I can pick up anything Psychically.

My second experience was of being a trainee priest in ancient Egypt, I had a shaven head (as I do now!) and ponytail, my teacher taught me many great mysteries and showed my scrolls of wisdom. There was some sort of upset with the local people and both he and I were stoned to death. I also had a very interesting experience during a guided meditation with the Rosicrucians where I underwent a symbolic death and re-birth in the Kings Chamber at the Great Pyramid of Giza

My final experience was of a missionary in Africa at the turn of the century, once again I died a rather violent death as I was captured by a group of tribesman, who surrounded me and thrust a spear into my stomach.

I have also had quite mundane reincarnation experiences, in one I owned a bookshop in Oxfordshire and dabbled in Alchemy, in another I worked or owned a furniture shop, in another I was a refined gentleman in London in Victorian England that did a lot of charity work with the poor and was involved with a secret society.

Part of life is balancing Karma and I have learnt through my lifes experiences what needs to be balanced. I have no fear of death as I KNOW life goes on, its just a transisition from one state to another.

You can recall your previous lives through Hypnosis, past life regression can help you understand who you really are as you are made up of a endless lifetime of experiences. By learning who your are you can release blockages that you have accumulated over many incarnations. Part of your time on the Earth and the reason we reincarnate is to learn lessons and progress spiritually.

Here is a Metaphysical Technique to Recall Past Incarnations.
Begin by relaxing (meditating) and awaken your Psychic Consciousness. Breathe deeply as you intone verbally "Om" (or Aum) eight times while you concentrate on your pineal gland. Then, return to your normal breathing pattern and recall your immediate past in your mind. Then go back first monthly then yearly to the earliest point in your life you can remember, try to remember important events in your life. Go to your childhood of 3/4 years of age (or the earliest you can remember) When you feel you can no longer go back any further in your present life incarnation concentrate on the LAST MENTAL IMAGE you have seen and intone "Om" eight times. Remain in a receptive state, still the mind and pay attention to any impressions you receive. If you have a mirror gaze at your reflection in it and if you are sufficiently developed you will see the face that was yours in your last incarnation.Each stage of this exercise is important, if you perform it on a regular basis you will go further and further back in incarnations.
All my best , good luck!


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jamie barter
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24/07/2013 5:39 pm  

Further to what I was saying to Los regarding my/ a nihilistic outlook: it was in 1981, after some expedition to see some psychedelic band – it wasn’t Floyd’s “The Wall” (another wondrous gig!) I know that, but it must have been around that time just afterwards – and by the piper at the gates of dawn, I found myself in a philosophical frame of mind pondering what Douglas Adams calls the mysteries of life, the universe and every thing when something within - it may have been my subconscious of course, although I feel with all my being it was something greater – communicated to me that if I really wanted to know these I would first have to show that I had the courage to handle the Revelation.

By this time I had wandered outside and, like any old fool would since I believed in the sentiments of “Exceed, exceed”, assented yes (my mother, to her credit, always used to try to warn me: “Jamie, you never see the red light!”) - but the “voice” then said that first I would have to learn the full meaning of “no meaning”, which as I say was my nihilistic world-view of the universe to date, and although it was dawning & wasn’t getting any physically darker from that point of view, it gradually seemed that all of the Light behind everything was being sucked out, all the vital animating principle behind Nature, in literally everything, was just ebbing away, and a horrible sadness or feeling of Sorrow permeating everything – like the feeling of regret of a lost opportunity which had now gone forever.  It was like a Dickian version of entropy: trees, grass, losing colour – dying, everything having about it the essence of grey ash; and I myself was becoming increasingly weaker, physically ill and feeling sick.  I knew with inner certainty that I was going to physically die then and there if this carried on, and that would have been me gone for this lifetime – not with a bang, more likely a whimper. 

So I (almost) cried to myself or whoever, “Stop! well if this is so, then according to the law of polarity there must be an opposite to it, so I want – and think I have a right! - to see what that is like too, before I go.”  And not only did things gradually, again, return to normal, they kept on going and increasing with the essence of Joy and Bliss that was literally flooding out of every thing in a colossal Blakeian rush.  This was overwhelming, and also got to be too much so I also felt I was going to die, wondrous and glad-making though it may have been, but in the interests of the strong biological drive for survival in all of us a balance came to be forged.  (I have only ever once received a similar overload of sensory information – on a similar ‘expedition’ to watch the mighty Curve at Glastonbury – when one minute I found myself at my usual site in or near the ‘moshpit’; the next – some 3½ hours later, I came to and the field was empty and everyone had gone back to their tents to crash.  Heaven knows what I must have looked like laid out on the grass – I’m surprised the medics or other ‘authorities’ weren’t called!  However I digress slightly).

These days I can handle the ineffable bliss a lot better, thanks, and would say I am in this existential state for, what, 93% of all the time.  Of course I still get headaches and bad moods and occasionally feel below par, but these are miniscule ‘shadows’ in comparison.  That experience kick-started my whole magical mystical career; looking back analytically, it must have been the equivalent of “crossing the Abyss” to Binah in Malkuth in the world of Assiah.  But, as above, so below, and there was a measure of “all truth” there (subjectively, of course).  And as Liber Pennae Praenumbra by Nema/ Niaton puts it: “The Abyss is crossed in minutes, every day” [by minutes, I interpret ‘minute measures’].

I will doubtless be hauled over the coals for this ‘confession’, and it is slightly off-topic, but someone might prophet by it (and by prophet, I mean it in the sense I believe Thomas Paine used it – not someone who is able to foresee the future, but rather one who is able to read and interpret the present...)

Past lives guff?  As Christibrany, Shiva and Cedar have been bold, or reckless, enough to mention their own experiences: in the past I used to have a mild fantasy that I might have been (no, not A.C.) but Raoul Loveday.  I also imagined I was Shelley, despite not knowing hardly a word of his poetry, possibly associated also with memories of his drowning.  I also seemed to retain memories of having being burned alive by some inquisition, and in the manner of the chrono-synclastic infundibulum (look it up, peeps!) I have ‘foreseen’ that I will die in an air crash.  It all goes to amusingly “pass the time”, I suppose… Notwithstanding all of that, Father William Breeze of the Caliphornian OTO also quizzed of me the first time I met him whether I was the reincarnation of Oscar Wilde, a thought which had never occurred to me before!

Plenty there to ridicule, if you really want to!  But who can actually say in all certainty “deluded fool” or “liar”?

Yours from the new jerusalem in london:
N. Joy.


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Shiva
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24/07/2013 6:37 pm  
"jamie barter" wrote:
That experience kick-started my whole magical mystical career; looking back analytically, it must have been the equivalent of “crossing the Abyss” to Binah in Malkuth.

I will concur with you in this concept. I, et al, have experienced this same thing. The archetype of the 1st initiation - Malkuth in any system we're referencing - includes a free, all-expense-paid, trip to Binah, then a re-veiling, all so the "true" initiate gets a firm grasp of the "goal." It may wear off, and become sporadic or even un-attainable in the moment (especially during the 2nd degree), but he or she is forever endowed with a "knowing faith" (not a blind faith, of all stupid things) and general understanding of Samadhi. The "path" then becomes whatever is needed to get back to that state.

Also, you seem to understand the basic concept: "Nothing is a secret key ..."

I documented my own version of what I interpret as the "same thing" as your experience at:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaUrN8YTnn0
If anybody's bold enough to go there for 1 Min 53 sec, they will see the living room of the original Solar Lodge turn into a inner journey with the rather cartoonish images not far removed from exactly what took place.

This Egyptian theme in "reincarnationist reverie" is, according to my view, embedded deeply within the Western psyche - because (think DNA) we evolved out of that Sumerian-Egyptian timespace.


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 Anonymous
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24/07/2013 8:11 pm  
"Shiva" wrote:
I documented my own version of what I interpret as the "same thing" as your experience at:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaUrN8YTnn0
If anybody's bold enough to go there for 1 Min 53 sec, they will see the living room of the original Solar Lodge turn into a inner journey with the rather cartoonish images not far removed from exactly what took place.

Cool stuff. Actually looks almost exactly like my Businessman's Lunch experiences 😉


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jamie barter
(@jamie-barter)
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25/07/2013 5:14 pm  

Yes, Shiva, I also concur with what you are saying here, and your “documentation” was quite a little graphic excursion in itself.  Also, a most interesting speculation about Sumerian-Egyptian affectivity via DNA.  Terra_trema, I would like to partake of more businessman's lunches, if that is your experience of them!   

"jamie barter" wrote:
and in the manner of the chrono-synclastic infundibulum (look it up, peeps!)

For the benefit of those too busy or disinclined themselves to google the several possibilities, I am sorry I am not proficient enough to provide the Links myself (it is not that I’m lazy!) but here is a digest of the main schnozz:

Chronosynclastic Infundibulum[/align:lqe2fhri]

n.  A point in space where, upon a person entering it, that person's existence in space-time ceases to be linear, becoming discrete. This means that a person that has entered a chronosynclastic infundibulum exists at multiple points and lines in space-time. For example, such a person could exist at all points in time in one place and also appear at another point for five minutes.

“Those places … where all the different kinds of truths fit together”. It’s a region (in space, time, and possibly other dimensions) where all opinions are true. That is, there is no contradiction; it’s a region whose mathematical abstraction for logic would be univariate; a place where the concept of “false” does not and cannot exist.

Definition: n. A place, or a moment, where all the different kinds of truths fit together, and where there are many different ways to be absolutely right about everything. n. To be absolutely right about everything.

Pronunciation: chro-no-sin-kla-stik in-fun-di-bu-lum

Sentence: You might think it would be nice to go to a chronosynclastic infundibulum and see all the different ways to be absolutely right, but it is a very dangerous thing to do.

"Chrono (kroh-no) means time. Synclastic (sin-classtick) means curved towards the same side in all directions, like the skin of an orange. Infundibulum (in-fun-dib-u-lum) is what the ancient Romans like Julius Caesar and Nero called a funnel. If you don’t know what a funnel is, get Mommy to show you one." - Kurt Vonnegut, "The Sirens of Titan"

“I'm ready to leave - I push the facts in front of me
Facts lost - Facts are never what they seem to be
Nothing there! - No information left of any kind
Lifting my head – L-l-l-looking for the danger signs:
There was a line; there was a formula -
Sharp as a knife, Facts cut a hole in us”

N. Joy


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anarchistbanjo
(@anarchistbanjo)
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17/08/2013 3:02 pm  

I have some personal experiences that might be of interest on this subject. In recalling past memories I have the pleasure of using hindsight as well, (is that looking out of my ass? Chuckle) As a child I had a recurring dream that used to frighten me. It was of an ocean of dead people, a horrible battlefield. Today I think of that as early memories of the two world wars that haunt me to this day, wars that should never have happened. I know many people that I believe were Nazis in past lives but that gets ahead of myself. . .

Born into a fundamentalist Christian family I was led to the AMORC Rosicrucian teachings at the earliest age possible to become a member, age eighteen. These weekly monographs felt “right” to me and undermined the religious teachings my parents had instilled in me. I remained a member of AMORC for twenty two years and completed the degree studies. Those twenty two years were intensely and passionately devoted entirely to meditation, prayer and the subjects of mysticism and new age studies including “The Seth Material” of Jane Robers and writings of Dick Sutphen regarding past lives as well as others. Dick Sutphen used hypnosis to discover past lives, Jane Roberts introduced the subjects of soul groups and parallel souls.

During an intensely sacred experience of self-initiation in my early monograph studies a master appeared in my living room. He sat there cross legged and floating in the middle of the room for over one half hour. I was able to move around him and view him from different positions. He returned later at various times in my life. I now recognize that this person was Hanns Heinz Ewers. Much later in life I crossed the great abyss much as others have mentioned plunging into spirititual oblivion, although it did not last. I soon found the John Day version of “Alraune” and at the same time began my studies of Crowley.

The works of Crowley seemed so familiar to me that like so many others, I wondered if I could have been Crowley in a past life. In correspondence with Bill Heidrick of the OTO he shared the commonality of this belief and how it simply meant that I had studied this material before and recognized it.

Suddenly I was plunging downward toward the earth and lower levels on the magickal path and didn’t know what to make of it. That was almost twenty five years ago. I began to translate and study Hanns Heinz Ewers and it stirred up things inside of me that were very deep and dark, and he was the only person and the only material that seemed able to pry this stuff loose inside me. I began to believe that I was Hanns Heinz Ewers in my previous lifetime. While I still hold this to be true, it is with certain cautions:

Now, more than ever, I am able to connect with Hanns Heinz Ewers on the etheric planes and while we are indeed joined, we are still separate; much more like individual sparks belonging to the same soul group. My awareness can move back in time to his world and I’m sure that he visits mine. Yet, the present moment is the only reality that exists and he is not in my present moment and I am not in his.

I’ve gained the ability to see lifelines or timelines and wonder if a person’s life is simply a “ghost” that exists within the akashic substance which any focused awareness can journey through. Thus, I am currently moving through the timeline of Joe Bandel and think of myself as Joe Bandel, but another entirely different awareness might be moving through the timeline of Joe Bandel ahead of me, or behind me and changing things in my own past and future as they pass through, just as I am making changed in my life. Lots of people want to experience famous lifetimes like Napoleon or Queen Elizabeth; may they are! Perhaps many have been Crowley in past lives, or Hanns Heinz Ewers! Here is a quote from my translation of “The Blue Indians” by Hanns Heinz Ewers.

Then one day a yellow one was brought that told me a most amazing tale. First he gave an account of all kinds of foolish stuff out of his earliest childhood. But then he spoke of his honeymoon, told how they captured thirty large red snappers and cooked them. Shortly after that he and his wife were in Acapulco. He described exactly how it looked. That is not at all remarkable except that the boy was scarcely thirteen years old, had never been married and had never been away from the Momohuichic River.

I asked him about it. He looked at me very stupidly and grew quiet. But the old one grinned and said, “Pala”. (It was his father)

I must say that I didn’t sleep that night and it was not mosquitoes that kept me awake. Either the youth had lied to me or I had discovered an astonishing phenomenon, a memory that went back beyond birth and pulled a memory out of the parent’s lifetime.

Couldn’t it be possible? I have green eyes like my mother and a protruding forehead like my father. Everything can be inherited, every characteristic, talent, every disposition. Why can’t the memory be inherited?

The young kitten that is barked at by a dog arches its back and hisses. Why? Because it instinctively remembers out of the memories of thousands of generations that that is its best defense! The hedgehog curls into a ball with bristles on every side as you turn it. This action also comes from some strange custom that it has not learned on its own. Instead it comes out of the memories of an unending number of ancestors.

That is what instinct is, the memories of the ancestors. And these Indians whose brains work no differently than ours, these Indians who are only unique in the foods that their forefathers also enjoyed have evolved this wonderful memory. Why shouldn’t a higher memory as well as an ancestral memory be capable of being inherited out of the brains of the parents? The forefathers live again in their children.

Yes, but what lives on? Perhaps the features! The daughter is musical like papa and the youth left handed like mama. Coincidence? No, no. We die and our children are entirely different people. The mother was a prostitute and the son became a missionary or the father was Attorney General and his daughter sings in a casino.

Our undying souls must comfort themselves by singing Hallelujah in heavens green meadows somewhere far away from this earth we know and love. It is the only thing permitted.

We take great pains to do something so that our memory will not die. We die peacefully when we are in encyclopedias. Then we are immortal- for a second in a few centuries. Still everyone wants to live a little longer in humanities memory or at least in the memories of their friends and family. That is why the fat citizen has children, to carry on his name.

It’s true; the artist has it right. Somehow we live on in our children many generations after our death. As women with emotions and sorrow we carry and give birth under miserable torment but with each birth we rise from the dead and as men later fertilize our great-grandchildren. Then once more blossoms our first thought drawn from a chorus in a distant land and we first become aware of our groping feet and once more cast our wavering seed upon the rocks.

Something lives on and perhaps the best. Many things die- and perhaps the best. Who is to know? Everything dies and what does not die is kept safely in memory. What is forgotten is entirely dead, not that which dies. People are beginning to grasp that it is not the remembering of the past that is good but the forgetting. Remembering is foolishness, an illness, and a disgusting pestilence that chokes out the new life. We do not want to constantly look back in honor of our fathers and mothers but more deeply separate from them because we are more than they are and greater than they are!

We want to tear down yesterday because we know that today we are alive and that our today is a much better one. That is our strong belief and it is so strong that we do not even think about it. We don’t consider that our great today- tomorrow will be a pathetic yesterday only fit for the rubbish heap.

It is an eternal war with eternal defeat if we do not gain victory over our ancestral memories. We are slaves to the ideas of our forefathers. We spend our lives tormenting ourselves in their chains, suffocating in the restrictive fortress that our forefathers have created. We need to build a bigger house. When we are dead it will be worn out as well and our grandchildren will lie in the chains that we have created.

But if that is the truth then what is it that I have now discovered? Am I today at the same time my father, my forefathers and myself? If what my brain carries does not die but lives on in my children and grandchildren how can the eternal revolution ever become reconciled?


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newneubergOuch2
(@newneubergouch2)
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17/08/2013 3:16 pm  

I believe I was Wilson in a past life.


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Shiva
(@shiva)
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17/08/2013 3:36 pm  
"anarchistbanjo" wrote:
People are beginning to grasp that it is not the remembering of the past that is good but the forgetting.

Aha! ... and Amen (-Ra).

[/align:3nr48eg7]


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Hamal
(@hamal)
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17/08/2013 4:43 pm  
"newneubergOuch2" wrote:
I believe I was Wilson in a past life.

Wow! The founder of Wilsons butchers, I must congratulate you on your meat pasties! 🙂

93
Hamal


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Los
 Los
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17/08/2013 6:08 pm  
"anarchistbanjo" wrote:
Either the youth had lied to me or I had discovered an astonishing phenomenon, a memory that went back beyond birth and pulled a memory out of the parent’s lifetime.

Or the kid made a mistake and thought that a daydream he had was a “memory.”

Everything can be inherited, every characteristic, talent, every disposition. Why can’t the memory be inherited?

Because, as far as we can tell, memories are stored in the brain, not the DNA.

The young kitten that is barked at by a dog arches its back and hisses. Why? Because it instinctively remembers out of the memories of thousands of generations that that is its best defense!

This is an equivocation. Instinct isn’t “memory” in the same sense that my remembering getting breakfast this morning is a “memory.” Instinct is really just a disposition toward certain kinds of behaviors that have proved useful for survival.

The works of Crowley seemed so familiar to me that like so many others, I wondered if I could have been Crowley in a past life. In correspondence with Bill Heidrick of the OTO he shared the commonality of this belief and how it simply meant that I had studied this material before and recognized it.

Yowsa.

“This writing seems familiar…I must be a reincarnation of the author!”
“No, you’re probably a reincarnation of someone who’s read the book before. That’s somehow a much more reasonable conclusion.”

You can’t make this stuff up!


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
17/08/2013 8:44 pm  

It is very interesting reading anarchistbanjos thoughts in the light of Josephine McCarthy's thoughts on magical lines egregores (egregore: magical library, a kind of akasic records, archive only accessible to initiates). She claims in the Magical knowledge book II, that every member of a magical line becomes a part of the magical line's egregore, and that the future generations inherit past members karma and knowledge from these former members. She also advice the readers to think thoroughly through which line to join, although one can become member of many lines at ones, and many lines might be intertwined.This may explain why there are so many "closed" magical societies.


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Shiva
(@shiva)
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17/08/2013 10:13 pm  
"Kharlatan" wrote:
She claims ... that every member of a magical line becomes a part of the magical line's egregore ["collective group mind"], and that the future generations inherit past members karma and knowledge from these former members.

Yes, this was the theorum as presented in Agape Lodge and Solar Lodge. Once you joined the f**king Illuminati, by whatever name it be called, your life moved into the fast lane and strange things began to happen. The ghosts off the dead previous externalization of the hierarchy overshadowed the [then] current, incoming tide to produce an entire group thoughtform, which was mainly composed of manifestations of historic significance (karma), with recurring recognizable personalities. And this description is exactly what was perceived! by those involved (in Solar Lodge and/or Transhimalayan White Brotherhood).

Now, of course, it could have just been, and still is, hero-worship  :o, combined with a bit of social programming  ??? on the parts of the teachers or "links." It could just be an eternal archetypal game that's being played out on a continual basis on a certain wavelength (sephiroth) of consciousness. That's why it's called "The Invisible Order," because it's embedded in DNA as everyone's birthright to tap into the collective unconscious.

Various lineages do exist. And if you are bonded within any one lineage (or more), you will be influenced by that "school of thought," and even by means that appear to be metaphysical.

But none of this proves anything ... except maybe for the concept of "nothing ever changes." You know, "Yea! deem not of change: ye shall be as ye are, & not other ... There is none that shall be cast down or lifted up: all is ever as it was."


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anarchistbanjo
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18/08/2013 2:01 am  

One might add that in Satanism the "soul" is considered an extrusion of the physical body created from sexual excesses, intoxication and/or physical stresses. "Nothing succeeds like excess!"

Thus, only satanists would have externalized enough soul substance to reincarnate with it! Others would need to start from scratch! Only satanists would be "saved"! Chuckle.

-joe


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Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 3951
18/08/2013 2:44 am  

I expect you do chuckle, joe. Personally, I think that what you've said is crap, but we're all entitled to our opinions.


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anarchistbanjo
(@anarchistbanjo)
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18/08/2013 2:56 am  
"MichaelStaley" wrote:
I expect you do chuckle, joe. Personally, I think that what you've said is crap, but we're all entitled to our opinions.

Ah Michael, its all in good fun! Irony at its best or worst. Not only are we all entitled to our own opinions, but to our own realities. We remain prisoners of what we believe to be true and we act according to what we believe, not according to what is actual.

-joe


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Azidonis
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18/08/2013 7:43 am  
"anarchistbanjo" wrote:
Not only are we all entitled to our own opinions, but to our own realities. We remain prisoners of what we believe to be true and we act according to what we believe, not according to what is actual.


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Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 3951
18/08/2013 11:40 am  
"anarchistbanjo" wrote:
We remain prisoners of what we believe to be true and we act according to what we believe, not according to what is actual.

From the experience of many years, I've come to regard my current opinions about the nature of reality to be working theories, to be superseded by subsequent working theories. So no, I don't think that we necessarily "remain prisoners of what we believe to be true".


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Hamal
(@hamal)
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18/08/2013 12:29 pm  
"MichaelStaley" wrote:
From the experience of many years, I've come to regard my current opinions about the nature of reality to be working theories, to be superseded by subsequent working theories. So no, I don't think that we necessarily "remain prisoners of what we believe to be true".

Excuse me gentlemen for putting in my two pence worth, but that's a statement I do agree with. I've best heard it best summarised as "Parameters not perimeters" as a wise high priestess once taught me, and I've never forgotten it.

93
Hamal


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anarchistbanjo
(@anarchistbanjo)
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18/08/2013 12:55 pm  
"Hamal" wrote:
"MichaelStaley" wrote:
From the experience of many years, I've come to regard my current opinions about the nature of reality to be working theories, to be superseded by subsequent working theories. So no, I don't think that we necessarily "remain prisoners of what we believe to be true".

Excuse me gentlemen for putting in my two pence worth, but that's a statement I do agree with. I've best heard it best summarised as "Parameters not perimeters" as a wise high priestess once taught me, and I've never forgotten it.

93
Hamal

Perhaps that is the difference then. I try to keep the theoretical completely out of it and merely try to express what I have personally experienced in the belief that success is the proof. In doing this I try to frame understanding around actual events after the fact rather than theorize what will happen if I do a particular action.

I will also mention a heavy influence by Mantak Chia. Here is a link:
http://www.healing-tao.com/tao-garden/universal/en/books-and-products/

This book in particular:
http://www.healing-tao.com/tao-garden/universal/en/universal-healing-tao-book-by-master-mantak-chia-taoist-secrets-of-love.html


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newneubergOuch2
(@newneubergouch2)
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18/08/2013 1:48 pm  
"Hamal" wrote:
"newneubergOuch2" wrote:
I believe I was Wilson in a past life.

Wow! The founder of Wilsons butchers, I must congratulate you on your meat pasties! 🙂

93
Hamal

no the Wilson!
LOL


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Hamal
(@hamal)
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Posts: 547
18/08/2013 2:20 pm  
"anarchistbanjo" wrote:
"Hamal" wrote:
"MichaelStaley" wrote:
From the experience of many years, I've come to regard my current opinions about the nature of reality to be working theories, to be superseded by subsequent working theories. So no, I don't think that we necessarily "remain prisoners of what we believe to be true".

Excuse me gentlemen for putting in my two pence worth, but that's a statement I do agree with. I've best heard it best summarised as "Parameters not perimeters" as a wise high priestess once taught me, and I've never forgotten it.

93
Hamal

Perhaps that is the difference then. I try to keep the theoretical completely out of it and merely try to express what I have personally experienced in the belief that success is the proof. In doing this I try to frame understanding around actual events after the fact rather than theorize what will happen if I do a particular action.

That sounds a bit chicken and egg to me!

93
Hamal


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