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Shiva
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........Libation = Liberation

"To worship me take wine and strange drugs whereof I will tell my prophet, & be drunk thereof! They shall not harm ye at all." - AL II-22.

The prophet Crowley wrote in Commentary called D, "He [Aiwass] tells us that to worship Hadit, that is, to cause him to stir, we should make ourselves drunk by the use of wine and certain strange drugs. So much is common knowledge. But he adds the startling statement “They shall not harm ye at all.” One can but gasp; to argue in support of his statement would be beyond the power of any man. The proof must lie with time. Lest there be folly, let me say that this passage does not license reckless debauch. The use of drugs and drink is to be strictly an act of Magick."

If the "strange drugs" were cocaine or opium-derivatives, then Crowley's "gasp" would be warranted. But the modern psychedelics (including mescaline - the psychedelic of AC's time) are the least harmful of all these substances, and they are non-addictive. In fact, they won't work at all after a day or two due to "physiological tolerance" - wait a week, and they work again. So they may be considered from a medical viewpoint to "not harm you at all."

...

A Libation is part of the Magickal Armory. This thread diverts from another of a slightly different topic so that interested parties may meaningfully discuss the role of the Libation within the guidelines; that is, a discussion of Libation(s) without "promoting" (advocating, recommending, selling) any substances or acts that violate the laws of UK and US.

Personally, I am not interested in discussing wine, stimulants, narcotics and other vulgar medicinals, preferring to open discourse on the psychedlics, the only ones that truly meet the term, "strange drugs."

Let me start by quoting what I have already written in Sepher NSK:

""The results obtained when combining Ceremonial Magick with Liberating Medicine, the so-called Libation, are completely different when compared to a passive indulgence in the Medicine alone."

and

"The attitude of Solar Lodge toward [the Libation] was that of a sacrament. Such substances were never engaged without the prior erection of a circle about an altar. One time the circle was about 300 feet in diameter, with a large tent in the center to house the alter, with nine Tiki Torches marking the perimeter; there were about 20 magician-participants. We would inwardly flinch when hippies would describe their acid-trips walking down Hollywood Boulevard, looking at the lights and the people." I still think that same way.

Comments?

93, Shiva


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 Anonymous
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I have seen the path to 'englightenment' if you will describes as this: 'enlightenment' is at the top of the mountain. let me pause here to define enlightenment the journey towards samadhi which is loosely defined in crowley's book 4 part I. continuing the analogy, it is a long journey to the top of the mountain. the use of medicines is taking a short trip via helicopter to the top of the mountain.

although through my personal experience, once reaching the top of the mountain a number of times, i solely wished to reach the top of the mountain without the assistance of these substances. i felt imperfect and soon became depressed because i was not complete without living at the top of the mountain. I was thrown into a spiral of confusion as i desperately tried to climb up the mountain. I tried to rebuild my reality around what I had experienced, to perceive the same way I had when I was on top of the mountain, and permanently damaged my mental state because of it. I feel that now I can never reach the top of the mountain, as my legs are broken from constantly falling off.

My most memorable lesson I brought back with me from the top of the mountain is that I am god. I experienced a magic so deep that I could willingly move mountains.

Fortunately aleister crowley existed, perhaps I created him so that one day I would be able to achieve samadhi.


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 Anonymous
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I think all of that explains quite alot actually.


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 Anonymous
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It felt wonderful to get that off my chest in a way that is legible and understandable. as a side note, something like _this_ i easily achieved while under the influence. i easily achieved a meditative trance like state, because I was half asleep laying in bed. note that I did not move something as significant as an arm, but I was able to move my jaw, the only confirmation being the clicking sound I could hear from my teeth.


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 Anonymous
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All experience previously mentioned was a result of marijuana-induced meditation. I never once have delved into LSD or shrooms.

edit: well now i know i can edit posts :p

edit2: within 10 mins of posting. tooltip for edit says "edit/delete post" but I don't see any way to delete posts..


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Shiva
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"lordsaturn" wrote:
... let me pause here to define enlightenment ...

"Enlightenment."
"En" = inside.
"lighten" = the act of increasing light
"ment" = state of
"A state of increasing inner light."
also see: Illumination = Giving off Light.

"lordsaturn" wrote:
... the use of medicines is taking a short trip via helicopter to the top of the mountain.

This is true. Perhaps the word "temporary" might be inserted somewhere in this quaint definition.

"lordsaturn" wrote:
... reach the top of the mountain without the assistance of these substances.

Yes, that should be a goal. This is why I have coined the term "Preview of Coming Attractions" in relation to medicinal enlightenment.

Note: "Thou shalt not should on thyself or others."

"lordsaturn" wrote:
... and permanently damaged my mental state because of it.

Uh, oh! You aren't another one of those fellows who is going to get a bunch of those "See a Doctor" referrals, are you?

"lordsaturn" wrote:
... I am god.

Yes, many people have expressed that very same thing.

"lordsaturn" wrote:
Fortunately aleister crowley existed, perhaps I created him so that one day I would be able to achieve samadhi.

But what if Aleister created you just to see if his methods work?

"AEternitas" wrote:
I think all of that explains quite alot actually.

Yes, it does.

Lord Saturn has described a mystical (inward) journey, enabled by withdrawing into bed, apparently without creating a circle, and taking the inward helicopter voyage to a self-described blissful, god-state. Only to find his life/mind re-arranged in an apparently disordered condition - if I interpret his message correctly.

I believe the idea is to build a set of practices with at least some measure of control before engaging medicinal support, but we all have to start wherever it is that we start.

So this brings up a dual consideration: Inward (mystical) versus Outward (Magickal). Most of my experiences have been a combination of building a circle, banishing, invoking ... and then sitting (maybe lying down) silently for a period (asana, pranayama, pratyahara, dharana).

In a group rite, this inward phase always seems to give way back into an outer focus, often leading to a "leaping laughter and delicious languor" state of being.

One of the main points to consider, is that one's highest, assisted experiences and visions do not constitute an "attainment" or a grade.

... but they do show one's potential. Now, if there were only a way to get back into that state without medicinal assistance.

Oh, I see! That's where the daily practices come in.


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 Anonymous
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So you put up the circle, do the banishings, the invocations and then after all that the most interesting thing you can think to do is sit quietly in the circle meditating? no scrying? No travelling in the spirit vision, no LSD rising on the planes?


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Shiva
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"AEternitas" wrote:
So you put up the circle, do the banishings, the invocations and then after all that the most interesting thing you can think to do is sit quietly in the circle meditating? no scrying? No travelling in the spirit vision, no LSD rising on the planes?

Anything you want!

Everything you mentioned can be applied while sitting quietly. The Libers are filled with various activities - almost any one of them can be engaged. C'mon, you know that.

Then, of course, there are the specific ceremonies to cause change to occur; usually there's not any sitting around in these deals. A sustained, ongoing concentration on the dynamics of the rite is required. After the ceremony is completed, then some inner work can be attended to.

To the agenda, one can add Tarot readings, Yi King divination and healing sessions. But not all at once - a magician has to know his [her] limits - for almost surely, those limits will be exceeded. So simplicity helps.

Most of these substances are internally active for about 4 hours - that's the chemical effect. But after 4 hours, one may remain elevated for many, many more hours. We used to say "the chakras were open." I don't know that that is an accurate definition, but it seems correct.

No matter what one does, the effect eventually wears off. Fortunate indeed are those who retain the memory, for they have returned to normalcy - but something has changed forever.


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 Anonymous
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"Shiva" wrote:
I believe the idea is to build a set of practices with at least some measure of control before engaging medicinal support, but we all have to start wherever it is that we start.

I'd like to elaborate a bit in this vein, perhaps more than a bit, and thereby discharge some of the responsibilities inherent to making "medicinal support" in magical and mystical work seem attractive to others.

Firstly, as noted by Shiva, many of the traditional methods of "medicinal support" are presently illegal in many countries, and in those cases legal alternatives should be used. The penalties for this type of "criminal" activity can be quite severe, involving great monetary expense, loss of freedom (imprisonment) and damage to one's personal lifetime resume. This note of caution also takes care of the guidelines for this website, so that is done.

Secondly, I don't believe that such "medicinal support" is for everyone but, then again, I don't believe that magical and mystical work is for everyone either.

It is my custom to advise the same precaution and prerequisite for the use of "medicinal support" as I do for even the most elementary of Magical practices, as taken from Crowley's Liber O:

"Before entering upon any of these practices, the student should be in good health, and have attained a fair mastery of Asana, Pranayama and Dharana."

Concerning good health, this applies to physical, mental and emotional health. There is great risk to those in poor health who use this sort of "medicinal support," and it is those in bad health who are so often prone to self-medicate for reasons other that those being discussed here, so this is doubly dangerous.

Concerning having attained a fair mastery of Asana, Pranayama and Dharana, this not only has the more obvious benefits of those practices in the areas of concentration, self-discipline and self-control, as well as building up a good Magical foundation on levels other than the obvious, but also serves to weed out the dilettantes, the dabblers and the lazy, all of which pose a danger to themselves and others if they involve themselves in matters such as these.

End of buzz-killing sermon. 🙂


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christibrany
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in Grants interpretation of 'strange drugs' I believe (based on my understanding anyway) that he thinks they are the kalas that emanate from the suvasini during tantric workings. The Eagle and the Lion were also a western way that Crowley labelled similar chemicals that when imbibed cause energetic evolution. I also like to think of them as other substances but only when used in a ritual setting and usually only once or twice to open up the astral centres and not to cause any proclivity towards over use. But the kala interpretation is more attractive to me because it doesn't have any harmful connotations.


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Shiva
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"christibrany" wrote:
But the kala interpretation is more attractive to me because it doesn't have any harmful connotations.

"They shall not harm ye at all."

Your (Grant's?) interpretation is fine. Except we're discussing Libations, which could be seen as the essences of Lions and Eagles, but then that's a matter for the elixir-threads and so-on.

What "harmful connotations" are you referencing.

There are indeed potential, harmful connotations if one is already unbalanced, as duly noted by Camlion (physically, mentally, emotionally), and if that unbalance is subconscious (ie, a person consciously thinks they are balanced, but demons lurk beneath the surface), then one might be in for a a wilder ride than expected.

Sure, we're all unbalanced. If we weren't (if we were perfect) then we probably wouldn't be here. The "unbalance" is a matter of degrees, as it were.

First of all, if you're in basically sound health on the three levels mentioned above, and you're already in pretty good control of your posture, your breathing and your concentration, then you might wish to obtain a LEGAL research chemical. Laws vary between countries and lesser jurisdictions, so check out your local regulations.

Some people recommend taking a quarter (1/4) dose the first time. Not like me. In the 60s, when LSD was imported from Sandoz in Switzerland, our particular (pre-Solar Lodge) group was interested, but everyone was chicken. You've seen that old commercial about the new breakfast cereal that the kids are wary of? "Let Mikey try it!" they exclaimed.

I was Mickey. It was a full dose. Five-hundred micrograms of pharmaceutically pure Sandoz acid. I had interesting insights, followed by being tossed from pillar to post internally, and I only had two visions: An Eye under the rug, and a quick trip to the Galactic Center. If you want to see what I'm talking about, I have documented my experiences in audio-visual format. The first one, "Primal Plunge" (4 min, 13 sec) is available for your viewing pleasure at:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWPf759Clq s"> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWPf759Clqs

Anyway, that little trip is what kicked me in the rear and got me going on the "Magickal Path."


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 Anonymous
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Well, drugs didn't hurt me none, but I watched alot of my friends spin out.

I think the difference between me and my spin-out friends was that my poor idealistic friends thought drugs would enlighten them. Whereas, for me, drugs were just a cynical shortcut to stupidr and stupidr giggles.

So when the inevitable 80 mile high drug Jesus showed up, my friends are listening to what the pastel idiot's saying, while I'm trying to bum a 30 foot high beer off the git. You do the math.


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 Anonymous
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Ape, I find your posts to be just overflowing with valuable, meaningful knowledge and insights.


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christibrany
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In terms of harmful effects I was more thinking of the chemical group on the right hand of the chart 🙂 The psychedelics I don't think you have much to worry about either.
That said, even if one has 'demons lurking beneath the surface' and they are brought out in whatever way, I think its better that way than keeping them under and thinking youre balanced when youre not. Because the struggle with said demons will eventually lead you to self knowledge, in this life or the next. Whereas the average cowardly member of society who views all 'drugs' as 'bad' will almost never exorcise their unbalanced parts due to not striving, through action or chemicals, and remain less healthy although they may appear 'better' on the outside. No?
I think we are in agreement I just didnt word my post well. 😀


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Shiva
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"christibrany" wrote:
In terms of harmful effects I was more thinking of the chemical group on the right hand of the chart 🙂 The psychedelics I don't think you have much to worry about ...

Right ... and right-side of the Chart.

The substances situated on the right of the chart, and towards the top, are the hard-core narcotics, stimulants and ... nicotine. They are standard medical substances with a (pretty much) uniform action-reaction across the broad spectrum of participants. They are, all of them in that corner of the Chart, addictive and deadly in an overdose. Then there's nicotine, which is highly addictive, yet seems to remain legal throughout the world. Thus, in my opinion, these are not "strange drugs," but well-known and often prescribed for medical conditions.

I believe that nicotine has not been banned by the Establishment because it produces good workers (example: A person is working on a complicated project and he/she takes a break and smokes a cigarette. He/she returns to work, more "grounded" and with a keener sense of focus). No spiritual insights, no sparking of the person to rebel against anything - let's just get the job done.

But there is one, major consideration when assessing the psychedelics: They are unpredictable. There is not a "standard" reaction effect. This is why they are "strange."

The "harm" from the psychedelic family would most likely be caused by behavioral actions - not by chemical side-effects that can lead to addiction, organ damage and overdose-related "close encounters" with real-physical death. And then some people take too much and die.

There are no fully-substantiated, actual cases of anyone dying from the medicinal actions of psychedelics. Attempted suicides have been reported, but when you read the fine print and the footnotes, you see that these are cases where a psychedelic has been administered in mental institutions to people who already have a known-history of suicidal tendencies.

So if one is routinely playing around in the upper-right part of the chart, then one falls under the dark shadow of that medical term called "drug addict."

Addiction to psychedelics is impossible. In fact, if one were to take (for example) LSD for three days - and then it stopped working - and one switched to Mescaline or Psilocybin, one would find that those substances will not work as well. After about a week, any of these items will work again (for a limited time span).


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 Anonymous
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"christibrany" wrote:
in Grants interpretation of 'strange drugs' I believe (based on my understanding anyway) that he thinks they are the kalas that emanate from the suvasini during tantric workings. The Eagle and the Lion were also a western way that Crowley labelled similar chemicals that when imbibed cause energetic evolution. I also like to think of them as other substances but only when used in a ritual setting and usually only once or twice to open up the astral centres and not to cause any proclivity towards over use. But the kala interpretation is more attractive to me because it doesn't have any harmful connotations.
"Shiva" wrote:
Your (Grant's?) interpretation is fine. Except we're discussing Libations, which could be seen as the essences of Lions and Eagles, but then that's a matter for the elixir-threads and so-on.

Quite right, I think. Regardless of one's interpretation of the term "strange drugs" in Liber AL, this is not a necessary justification for our discussion. The fact is that AC experimented with using "medicinal support" in many facets of the Great Work, as have others before and since.

"Shiva" wrote:
"lordsaturn" wrote:
... the use of medicines is taking a short trip via helicopter to the top of the mountain.

This is true. Perhaps the word "temporary" might be inserted somewhere in this quaint definition.

"lordsaturn" wrote:
... reach the top of the mountain without the assistance of these substances.

Yes, that should be a goal. This is why I have coined the term "Preview of Coming Attractions" in relation to medicinal enlightenment.

This is interesting. I'm not sure that AC was after just a "Preview of Coming Attractions," or that we should be either, but rather a means of valuable 'short-cuts' along the Path. In fact, his own Initiatory system is a 'short-cut' in it's own right, compared to the lifetime(+) customarily required in older systems of Attainment. Also the goal of Initiation itself was also greatly advanced by AC (from Liber AL), compared to the old aeon GD type systems that immediately preceded it.

In any case, I believe that what is of value here are ways, by employing various means of "medicinal support," to be identified according to the nature of the obstacle in the Path needing to be removed at the time.

The following if from AC's 'The Psychology of Hashish' and concerns "medicinal support" with meditation practices, in this example:

I was also aware of the prime agony of meditation, the dryness (as Molinos calls it) which hardens and sterilises the soul.

The very practice which should flood it with light leads only to a darkness more terrible than death, a despair and disgust which only too often lead to abandonment, when in truth they should encourage, for that — as the oracles affirm — it is darkest before the dawn.

Meditation therefore annoyed me, as tightening and constricting the soul. I began to ask myself if the “dryness” was an essential part of the process. If by some means I could shake its catafalque of Mind, might not the Infinite Divine Spirit leap unfettered to the Light?

Who shall roll away the stone?

I would recommend AC's 'The Psychology of Hashish' to those interested, Eqx. I Vol. 2 or, even better, as included in Israel Regardie's 'Roll Away the Stone' with other material from 'The Herb Dangerous.' My copy is 1968 Llewellyn but it may be in reprint or online.

Speaking of related reading list recommendations, Shiva may have one handy, since he is working on a book on this theme. There is a great deal of good research material available. Others may have suggestions, as well.


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 Anonymous
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"christibrany" wrote:
That said, even if one has 'demons lurking beneath the surface' and they are brought out in whatever way, I think its better that way than keeping them under and thinking youre balanced when youre not. Because the struggle with said demons will eventually lead you to self knowledge, in this life or the next.

Good health, physical, mental and emotional, can be readily evaluated and confirmed by the appropriate medical professionals.

EDIT PS: Regardie went so far as to recommend that a course of psychoanalysis precede Magical practice.


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 Anonymous
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I'm a bit confused at this point, to what extent can we discuss these subjects?


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Shiva
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"AEternitas" wrote:
I'm a bit confused at this point, to what extent can we discuss these subjects?

I believe we are free to "discuss" any aspect of this subject (and others) as long as we don't "promote" activities that are illegal in the UK and USA [UK+USA=93!]. That is essentially a verbatim quote from Lashtal. See his actual statement in the "Ignorant New Member" thread. That's the one that this thread spun off from.

I have elected to illustrate what I feel would be "promoting" illegal activities, in three easy steps. and would thus get us warned or locked out:

(1) "Everyone should take LSD and here's an address where you can order some." This one contains two separate promotions.

(2) "You [the hypothetical poster to whom I am responding] need to stop worrying so much and just get ahold of some DMT and take it!"

(3) "Mescaline for sale. Please send a PM for quantities and prices."

I would consider these examples of "promoting," that is, encouraging one or all to sell, buy, possess and/or consume illegal drugs.


So far, this thread is just shuffling around, making basic statements, issuing appropriate warnings, getting our bearings. Hopefully, we will get to specific applications, but it's ok by me to go slow.

"Camlion" wrote:
Good health, physical, mental and emotional, can be readily evaluated and confirmed by the appropriate medical professionals.

Yes and No. I am a licensed physician who has worked with psychiatrists, general practitioners and psychologists. I seriously doubt that modern medical professionals can detect "imbalances" that can arise from the use of psychedelics.

That is, a person can be examined and pronounced healthy, stable and free of psychological disorders, but (as I stressed earlier) these substances are unpredictable and can send the (apparently) healthiest person into a tailspin. Oh sure, the obvious problems can be detected. Even a three-year course of psychoanalysis is (possibly) not going to prepare the candidate for what might rise up out of the depths. How can I say these things? I have seen it happen just so.

Sh.'.


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 Anonymous
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"Shiva" wrote:
.

I believe that nicotine has not been banned by the Establishment because it produces good workers (example: A person is working on a complicated project and he/she takes a break and smokes a cigarette. He/she returns to work, more "grounded" and with a keener sense of focus). No spiritual insights, no sparking of the person to rebel against anything - let's just get the job done.

That's a bit of nonsense right there. The workers come back more "grounded" and refreshed because they took a break, not because they smoked. If anything it restricts bloodflow to the brain and the extremities and puts a strain on the heart and respiratory system adding to the overall stress of being a laborer. One of the several reasons it hasn't been banned is because the top two companies that produce tobacco products are two of the most powerful and influential companies in the world.


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Shiva
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"AEternitas" wrote:
That's a bit of nonsense right there. The workers come back more "grounded" and refreshed because they took a break, not because they smoked. If anything it restricts bloodflow to the brain and the extremities and puts a strain on the heart and respiratory system adding to the overall stress of being a laborer.

Why, thank you, Doctor AEternitas. Your physiological description is somewhat accurate, even if it is laced with the word "nonsense;" however, increased blood pressure usually delivers more blood to the brain. Nicotine causes elevated blood pressure, due to (as you stated) a temporary constriction of the arteries.

Eventually, after long-term use, the arteries will become permanently narrowed and your "restricted" blood flow can become a chronic problem. The following is quoted, not made up by me:

"Nicotine initially causes a rapid release of adrenaline, the "fight-or-flight" hormone ... you may be familiar with adrenaline's effects:

- Rapid heartbeat
- Increased blood pressure
- Rapid, shallow breathing

Adrenaline also tells your body to dump some of its glucose stores into your blood. This makes sense if you remind yourself that the "fight-or-flight" response is meant to help you either defend yourself from a hungry predator or hightail it out of a dangerous situation - running or brawling both require plenty of energy to fuel your muscles.

Nicotine itself may also block the release of the hormone insulin. Insulin tells your cells to take up excess glucose from your blood. This means that nicotine makes people somewhat hyperglycemic - more sugar than usual in their blood.

Nicotine may also increase your basal metabolic rate slightly. This means that you burn more calories than you usually would when you are just sitting around." [end quote]

Many cultures use tobacco as a "sacred substance," In particular, the North American Indians use it as preliminary drug in Peyote Rituals, mainly as a social relaxant. But then this becomes a big joke (the "sacred" part") because the Indians leave the ceremony and continue to smoke. That is, they are addicted.

Tobacco is more addictive than Heroin. Oh, not in the ability to cause violent withdrawal symptoms, but in its ability to hang on and on in withdrawal. Narcotic withdrawals subside into normalcy about 24 hours after they start, maybe a little longer, and narcotic detox patients are discharged after 5 days. The actual withdrawal symptoms may not even begin in earnest until 3 days after stopping, but two days later the person is clean and dischargable. Nicotine, on the other hand, doesn't clear out from the receptors for 6 days (of discomfort) and after that, the slightest stress or emotional disturbance can send the screaming demand for another cigarette (or pipe or chew or cigar).

The nicotine-addicted person will become fidgety, distracted and prone to making errors when they "need" a smoke. On their 4-minute break they can smoke a whole cigarette and get right back to work without those annoying withdrawal symptoms that are beginning. That's what I meant by "grounded" (focused, attentive, calmed down, a bit euphoric). This is not what happens with a single, first cigarette (coughing, nausea, dizziness) - this is what happens to a nicotine addict.


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 Anonymous
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Yes that's all true but you suggested that it produces good workers, and that is partly why it is still legal.


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Shiva
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"AEternitas" wrote:
Yes that's all true but you suggested that it produces good workers, and that is partly why it is still legal.

Yes, and I remain of that opinion.

It's not so much that it produces "good workers," for even yonder beggar (who does not work) might be a nicotine addict. It is that the nicotine chemical does NOT produce revolutionaries and malcontents. Rather, it produces [temporary] contentment and euphoria.

The tobacco companies, like their cousins, the pharmaceutical companies, are indeed a factor in ongoing legality - as you suggested. That's today. But for centuries (Aeons?), the matter has been the same.

In order to give the opposition a chance to be heard, let's see what one King did about it. He was so opposed to tobacco that he banned it. Anyone caught smoking was bound backwards onto a horse (donkey) and driven through town - with his pipe inserted through his nasal septum.


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 Anonymous
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"AEternitas" wrote:
I'm a bit confused at this point, to what extent can we discuss these subjects?

Hi AEternitas. Shiva's link is not working now, but here is the ruling from Paul in the thread in question:

"lashtal" wrote:
"Shiva" wrote:
If the poison is/was illegal, then further discussion of that topic is forbidden on lashtal.com.

That's not entirely true, of course. The prohibition is on the "promotion" of activities that are illegal: "Contributions that promote or appear to promote activities unlawful in either the UK or USA are specifically prohibited."

Most members appear to understand the difference between "discussion" and "promotion" and respect the reasons for this simple "rule".


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 Anonymous
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"Shiva" wrote:
"Camlion" wrote:
Good health, physical, mental and emotional, can be readily evaluated and confirmed by the appropriate medical professionals.

Yes and No. I am a licensed physician who has worked with psychiatrists, general practitioners and psychologists. I seriously doubt that modern medical professionals can detect "imbalances" that can arise from the use of psychedelics.

No doubt, Shiva. Of am offering only a general precaution in the interest of individuals taking a high degree of responsibility for themselves before venturing into potentially dangerous territory. Mental illness, for example, and the use of various drugs do not always mix well, which is not the fault of the drugs themselves.


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Shiva
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"Camlion" wrote:
I am offering only a general precaution in the interest of individuals taking a high degree of responsibility for themselves before venturing into potentially dangerous territory.

Agreed.

I have heard it said again and again, that there are two precautions one can take:

(1) Start with small amounts and work up. And this means a small amount per session/ceremony - not an increase every half-hour. One small dose - to be followed by (perhaps) a slightly larger amount next time.

(2) Always have someone with you - preferably someone (or two) who is experienced and not likely to be "unavailable" if/when you need assistance.


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 Anonymous
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"Shiva" wrote:
"Camlion" wrote:
I am offering only a general precaution in the interest of individuals taking a high degree of responsibility for themselves before venturing into potentially dangerous territory.

Agreed.

I have heard it said again and again, that there are two precautions one can take:

(1) Start with small amounts and work up. And this means a small amount per session/ceremony - not an increase every half-hour. One small dose - to be followed by (perhaps) a slightly larger amount next time.

(2) Always have someone with you - preferably someone (or two) who is experienced and not likely to be "unavailable" if/when you need assistance.

Agreed to both items one and two, with regard to early Work with psychedelics, Shiva. Also, access to 'parachute,' such as Thorazine, is often recommended, and is also used generally to ease any discomfort during 'descent' afterward.


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Shiva
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"Camlion" wrote:
Also, access to 'parachute,' such as Thorazine, is often recommended, and is also used generally to ease any discomfort during 'descent' afterward.

........... Thorazine - The Antidote

Thorazine (specifically) is the antidote for psychedelics.

When I was Mikey (the first experiment), we were uncertain as to what would happen, so there was a syringe and a vial of Thorazine handy. At one point I was so distressed that I said to Frater Shem, "Where's the Thorazine? This has got to stop."

Shem looked blankly at me and made no move at all. We were standing, face to face, and as I stared into that face, he turned into the Devil.

Frater Shem had two small bumps high on his forehead. Later we used to laugh about the fact that if you looked at the bumps (in an altered state), they would grow into horns and he would become the Devil.

It was later discovered that if you looked AT someone's face (including your own in a mirror), various, unpleasant features of one kind or another would appear - and it would become so monstrous that it became scary and you were forced to look away. BUT, if one shifted their gaze to the area AROUND the head (the so-called "halo" area), then the person (or reflection) would lighten and the image would take on "angelic" aspects.

In any case, Frater Shem was the Devil. He spent a lifetime doing devilish things. You think I'm kidding, don't you? You think I'm exaggerating? Well, check out this newspaper photo from 1948:

...........

Frater Shem is seen on the left; his wife on the right. He was 18 years old at the time. His son sent me this photo, noting that "Yes - his father was the devil - Ha, ha!"

Well, I wasn't afraid of the Devil, and when he refused to do anything but stare at me, I reached out with my left hand and grabbed his shirt while cocking my right fist back to deliver a punch to his devilish face.

We remained in that position for a moment - he with his soft eyes staring at me in benediction (or neutrality, whatever). Then I released the grip on his shirt and pushed him away with my palm, saying, "Oh, forget it!"

There were NEVER any thoughts about using Thorazine again ... ever.

In terms of Thorazine usage (or a similar strong tranquilizer from the same family), these are my thoughts, presented in a hardcore "rules" format - but these are just my rules - you must be your own judge:

(1) Thorazine should be resorted to only if a person is obviously insane and uncontrollable and manic. Just because they are "uncomfortable" or "distressed" is not a sufficient justification - mainly because these feelings are transient. So maybe some restraint for a few minutes is warranted, along with a bit of gentle dialog.

We had several "ground rules" in Solar Lodge: (1) Turn in your car keys before the ceremony; (2) Agree beforehand that you WILL NOT LEAVE the area (temple, house, etc) until 4 hours had elapsed. Plus several others.

Now if you think the Lashtal Sheriff is robust in his moderation, you should have seen how Frater Shiva "moderated" a breaching of the "ground rules." It was almost always the same thing - and it happened many times: Someone decided to LEAVE. I always handled it the same way; here's an example:

One probationer suddenly exclaimed out loud, "I've got to get out of here!" and he stood up and rushed for the (locked - another rule) door. I caught him halfway across the room, and using the most gentle of non-forceful Aikido techniques had him pinned and immobilized face-down on the carpet in about two seconds. After less than a minute, he became calm, was released and he re-took his seat; the ceremony then proceeded as if nothing had happened.

(2) If a person is in a distressed state, stopping the process with an antidote is going to "lock" that complex in place, and it will have to be re-addressed at a later time. And it may well be that it is reinforced due to its earlier victory in stopping any control over it. It's like evoking a demon and then running out of the room (circle) instead of controlling it, making it swear th oath of obedience, and dismissing it with a formal "License to depart."

(3) The application of an antidote AFTER the experience is going to interfere with the "integration process." That is, one has attained to some advanced state and then the "coming down" takes place. It is best if the higher state gradually gives way to "normal" consciousness, thus the maximum enrichment of the expanded state can be brought into the mundane consciousness.

Should there be discomfort (aches mostly), I would prescribe a legal cannabinoid substance and perhaps a muscle relaxant. But I would hesitate to induce anything that directly opposes the action of the dwindling psychedelic, ie, tranquilizers, any form of Fluoride, or SRIs [Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitors - Prozac and family].

Along these lines, there are two kinds of "coming down."

(A) Imperfection Projection: This is where a "bad trip" has occurred, or at least a struggle has resulted in less than a "perfect projection" (see below). There are likely to be bodily symptoms (aches - usually a general body ache or tight muscles) and the person may well be "out-of-sync" with the surrounding world. This usually lasts no more than a day or so.

Another Solar Lodge "rule" was in place for Sunday evening ceremonies. BEFORE the ceremony, everyone (we all being gainfully-employed workers) would agree that, no matter what state we were in, we would go to work the following Monday morning. Sometimes that could be interesting, but mostly it was exhausting.

It's probably better if one has a day or two to reacclimate.

(B) Perfection Projection: This is where a struggle has taken place (or not), but has resulted in dhyana or samadhi. There will be no bodily symptoms and the person will have no problem "syncing" with the surrounding world. This elevated state can last for several days.

I like that term Perfect Projection. It doesn't mean astral projection. A quote from The Crystal Chip Directory:

12.1 Perfect Projection - 000 - Auric Whomp!

The meeting point of Power and Worship. You are the Statement: the sum total of your desire, education and experience.

12.1 is Receptivity to Divine Will combined with crystal clear projection.

Potency is the ability to project pictures onto the fabric according to Absolute intent, and see them solidify into Manifest Reality.


.............. Powerhouse Projectors

Each new GENESIS begins with a "Big Bang." Cube window 12.1 is the beginning of our implosion into GENESIS II.

The Light Source for our projector, the Central Sun, is the Fixed Universal Reference Point around which all dimensions, mythical and physical, orbit.

This Life-Source is also called "The Tree of Life." It is guarded by all the higher life forces of the Universe in a hierarchical order of responsibility and relationship.

In an attempt to grasp this scale of values, we personalize this Life Principle as masculine and call him "THE MASTER OF THE UNIVERSE." He assumes multiple faces and facets during the course of our evolving relationship. We make a Harmonic Convergence with the inner-core of his Being after we have recognized "God the Terrible" and all that it implies.

Some people are light years ahead of others in terms of consciousness. It all depends on their orbital position around the All-Seeing Eye of the "Central Sun."

"Boarding Passes" into the Upper Kingdom are not gained by intellectual effort or by following the natural instincts of the "wolf pack hierarchy," but rather by the intelligence of the heart.

The New Earth Era Pyramid is built from the top down by orbiting rings of energy. This is the reverse polarity of the material world where pyramids are built from the bottom up.

We are required to play both ends against the middle.

The First Commandment is "Thou shalt have no other Gods before Me."
Window 12.1 is where we KILL ALL THE OTHER GODS in a grand explosion of spiritual energy.

We begin by asking, "Where are my real centers of worship? What is the true focus of my energetic devotion? Who are my "other Gods" and what kind of world do they teach me to believe in?

The $Money$ God is never satisfied with its tribute. The Porno God can never get enough of man's attention. The High-tech God is aimed at producing fission rather than fusion, especially in the latest video killing-games.

These are the Synagogue of Satan.

All legends, myths and traditions merge into a Singular Story of the war between GOOD and EVIL - between White and Black Light. This represents Noble versus Crude, Romance vs Rambo, Love vs Hate, Life vs Death.

Window 12.1 is where we detonate the TIME BOMB of ATLANTIS!
Now pass through the center of this Iris of the "Needle's Eye" into the Throne Room.

And maybe you'll never "come down" again.


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 Anonymous
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Very interesting stuff, Shiva, and I'm pleased that you are familiar with the precaution of access to a 'parachute,' as well, because, as you put it...

"Shiva" wrote:
Some people are light years ahead of others in terms of consciousness.

I am known for taking a rather conservative approach to this subject, at least outwardly, and with strangers, so we should make for a good balance here if this thread continues. 🙂


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Shiva
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"Camlion" wrote:
... as you put it...

"Shiva" wrote:
Some people are light years ahead of others in terms of consciousness.

I am known for taking a rather conservative approach to this subject, at least outwardly, and with strangers, so we should make for a good balance here if this thread continues. 🙂

Actually, that's not how "I" put it. That whole "12.1 - Perfect Projection" was identified as "A quote from The Crystal Chip Directory:" I am not the author of that document. But I quoted it, so I will take responsibility for it. Without entering a discussion of whether "All men are created Equal," which could consume an entire new thread, I would like to enter a couple of considerations:

(1) As recently stated on the "Thelema, a basis for human society?" thread:

"Camlion" wrote:
By the way, the full spectrum from Kether (and beyond) to Malkuth is within each of us from the start.

Agreed.

(2) "Refuse none."


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 Anonymous
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"Shiva" wrote:
(2) "Refuse none."

I would counter with...

Also the mantras and spells; the obeah and the wanga; the work of the wand and the work of the sword; these he shall learn and teach.
He must teach; but he may make severe the ordeals
. AL I:37-38

Hence...

"Camlion" wrote:
I don't believe that such "medicinal support" is for everyone but, then again, I don't believe that magical and mystical work is for everyone either.

It is my custom to advise the same precaution and prerequisite for the use of "medicinal support" as I do for even the most elementary of Magical practices, as taken from Crowley's Liber O:

"Before entering upon any of these practices, the student should be in good health, and have attained a fair mastery of Asana, Pranayama and Dharana."


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Shiva
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We now pause for a Public Service message:

"Although its capital is notorious for marijuana haze–filled "coffee shops," Holland has never actually legalized cannabis — the Dutch simply don't enforce their laws against the shops.

"Portugal, which in 2001 became the first European country to officially abolish all criminal penalties for personal possession of drugs, including marijuana, cocaine, heroin and methamphetamine.

"Jail time was replaced with the offer of therapy.

"The question is, does the new policy work?

"[A] a paper [report], found that in the five years after personal possession was decriminalized, illegal drug use among teens in Portugal declined and rates of new HIV infections caused by sharing of dirty needles dropped, while the number of people seeking treatment for drug addiction more than doubled.

"Judging by every metric, decriminalization in Portugal has been a resounding success ..."

^ Quoted from Time magazine.

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1893946,00.html#ixzz1AjxKYBc D"> http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1893946,00.html#ixzz1AjxKYBcD


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lashtal
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Any chance of returning to the life, works and influence of Aleister Crowley?

Hobby-horses can be left outside…

😉

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Anonymous
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I think that this thread has particular relevance to the life, works and influence of Aleister Crowley.
He knew the importance and sacredness of libations and the potential for evolving human consciousness.
In this light, i think it is relevant to discuss the highways and byways of libations and their connection with Magick and Mysticism.
Whether anyone likes it or not, libations had a massive role to play in Crowley's life and work.
This is re-enforced when he says - "let me say that this passage does not license reckless debauch. The use of drugs and drink is to be strictly an act of Magick."
Thus he shows the importance and caution to be observed in regards to libations.

I find it quite astonishing that intoxicants of any sort still have such hysterical taboos attached to them.
People seem to be ignorant of the fact that intoxicants have been used for thousands of years all over the world, usually for religious purposes.
I have had the most profound experiences incorporating psychedelics with ritual. It's about self exploration - Gnosis.
They are tools that should be utilised with discretion.

But, as has already been said, they can be unpredictable.
I think one of the main problems is that the majority of people are misinformed and ill-educated on the responsible use of ANY type of drug. This is due to taboos, stigmas, fears and control from authorities at all levels. If only there would be clearer communication as to how to USE them rather than ABUSE them, there might be some change for the better. Psychedelics are not party drugs, as the hippies (sometimes painfully) demonstrated.

Crowley left us with some accounts of his use of various drugs but unfortunately there is little about his experiences with psychedelics (apart from Cannabis). A paper of his on Peyote is allegedly lost. This leaves it up to the individuals after Crowley's time to explore psychedelics in tandem with Magick and Mysticism along the lines of Thelema and beyond.


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lashtal
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"morphon" wrote:
I think that this thread has particular relevance to the life, works and influence of Aleister Crowley.

You don't say!

😉

The thread is relevant, of course, but the post - sorry, the "Public Service message" - arguing for decriminalisation isn't.

Forgive me if I don't respond in detail to the rest of your polemic, Morphon, which follows the usual impassioned but shallow course we see in posts about drugs, or "libations"; full of the usual "straw man" arguments. Having said that, your comments on Crowley's "cautions" and the lack of writings by him on psychedelics are interesting and accurate. Actually, his short story, The Drug, published recently in the Wordsworth collection, is one of the earliest such writings by anyone. Spence's Secret Agent 666 has much of interest to say about the subject, too.

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Anonymous
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That's ok, i wasn't expecting a response.
As for your criticisms, you are probably right, there may have been such posts on Lashtal in the past, but i don't have the time nor the inclination to comb through endless threads to see if what i've said has already been covered.
I liked your "straw man" observation though - surely a reference to dried grass? 🙂

Thanks for the book references though, i haven't read either of those you mentioned.


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lashtal
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The Drug is especially interesting, particularly given that it was written in 1908.

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I noticed in 777 that Peyote is attributed to Hod. Why would this appear lower down on the tree?
Knowing that psychedelics produce higher spiritual potentials , wouldn't one expect to see this placed perhaps high up on the tree where Hashish is?

Could it have been that 777 was compiled prior to any in-depth experiments with psychedelics by Crowley?

I also noticed in Stephen Skinner's 'Complete Magician's Tables' that he attributes LSD to Kether (of course LSD was after Crowley's time).


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 Anonymous
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"morphon" wrote:
I noticed in 777 that Peyote is attributed to Hod. Why would this appear lower down on the tree?
Knowing that psychedelics produce higher spiritual potentials , wouldn't one expect to see this placed perhaps high up on the tree where Hashish is?

Could it have been that 777 was compiled prior to any in-depth experiments with psychedelics by Crowley?

I also noticed in Stephen Skinner's 'Complete Magician's Tables' that he attributes LSD to Kether (of course LSD was after Crowley's time).

Why should the effects of Psychadelics prodecue higher spiritual potentials? Is this the case for the materialsistic hipster taking them for a good time?
These substances are certain to produce phenomena of an astral nature, but any spiritual potency is going to be far more dependanet upon the level of initiation (or matrity even) of the person taking the substance.
Also, what makes you think that the position of Hod on the Tree makes it ultimately any less holy or spiritual?

Of course most of the attributions in 777 came before there was much in the way of experimentation with psychadelics. Crowley's attributions likely reflect his and Bennet's experiments.

Except for the fact that Skinner is a total hack, yes his attribution of LSD to the MIddle Pillar and to Kether has more or less been confirmed by many people I know who have taken it with a spiritual bent.


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 Anonymous
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It is unfortunate that Crowley's experience with psychedelics was as limited as it was. I think he would have benefited from such experiences, and we would have benefited from his accounts of them.


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Shiva
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"morphon" wrote:
I noticed in 777 that Peyote is attributed to Hod. Why would this appear lower down on the tree? Knowing that psychedelics produce higher spiritual potentials , wouldn't one expect to see this placed perhaps high up on the tree where Hashish is? Could it have been that 777 was compiled prior to any in-depth experiments with psychedelics by Crowley?

Yes, I noticed that a long, long time ago, and although 777 is a rather valuable document. I do not agree with (several of) the medicinal attributions. In the final analysis, we were told (by AC) that, "Everyone must build their own Qabalah." [italic emphasis mine]. 777 is not a Class A document and is subject to study and, perhaps, modification.

Anyway, here are the facts of the matter. Take a look at them; perform your own research; then you can attribute them wherever you want:

(quote): Activation of the 5-HT2A receptor is necessary for the effects of the "classic" psychedelics like Acid, Mescaline and DMT (The primal AMD triad), which act as full or partial agonists at this receptor, and represent the three main classes of 5-HT2A agonists. A very large family of derivatives from these three classes has been developed, and their structure-activity relationships have been extensively researched. Agonists acting at 5-HT2A receptors located on the apical dendrites of pyramidal cells within regions of the prefrontal cortex are responsible for mediating psychedelic activity.

Every substance that is an agonist of the 5-HT2A receptor produces a cross-tolerance; it's called receptor internalization.
(end quote: Liber NSK (c)2011 by ASI

That last sentence illustrates the phenomenon cited by me earlier: If one of these is used for (say) 3 days, it will stop working - and none of the others will work as well. Any of them will be able to "report for work" after about 7 days.

Each of these classic substances (and their analogue derivatives) acts exactly the same way physiologically, and each one is capable of allowing the magician full access to Hod, or any other Sephiroth, including Kether (and beyond).

So, from my point of view, these psychedelic substances are not classifiable to any sphere, unless one simply wants to intellectualize these things. And that's not going to make one bit of difference once the Libation is "freeing the girders."

There is a further consideration: "Strange drugs" were/are injuncted by Hadit in AL ch-II. With Hadit being the point (the monad), then the Kether attribution is appropriate.

Why settle for anything less?

"AEternitas" wrote:
... any spiritual potency is going to be far more dependant upon the level of initiation (or maturity even) of the person taking the substance.

Ain't it the truth?


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"Camlion" wrote:
It is unfortunate that Crowley's experience with psychedelics was as limited as it was. I think he would have benefited from such experiences, and we would have benefited from his accounts of them.

Crowley seems to have had extensive experience with the psychedelics of his time. It is fortunate that he did because he turned others, like Aldous Huxley, on to them.


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lashtal
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"zardoz" wrote:
It is fortunate that he did because he turned others, like Aldous Huxley, on to them.

I thought that story was apocryphal, first mentioned in a story in Rapid Eye magazine?

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Shiva
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"lashtal" wrote:
Hobby-horses can be left outside… 😉

Noted - and left.


Aleister Crowley had access to mescaline. The brief description of the contents of the book, The Cactus, includes: " ... compiled from the actual records of some hundreds of experiments ..."

There is no indication whether it was Crowley, or several other people, who conducted these hundreds of experiments, but it is probable that he was at least the "subject" for a good portion of them (if not all of them), for we can read somewhere that AC strolled over to his chemist to arrange for a preparation of Anhalonium (or his words to that effect in his diaries).

There has been comment in the posts speculating on how pleased AC would be with modern substances - almost as if these new libations were superior to mescaline. It's sort of like saying, "In 1947, AC rode to London in a 1947 Bentley; wouldn't it be much nicer if he could ride (today) in a 1965 Rolls or a 1980 Benz." Note that all three vehicles perform the same function: They all take AC to London in grand style; the only difference is the name and shape of the car.

It is doubtful that he would get any "farther" or get there any "faster" or "easier" with anything other than mescaline, for the fact is:

"Mescaline has always been the primary standard against which all other psychedelic molecules are compared. When studying substituted phenethylamines, the United States Chemical Warfare Group used mescaline as the base reference material for both dosage and quality comparisons. The Edgewood Arsenal code for mescaline is EA-1306. The Edgewood Arsenal experiments, also known as Project 112, are said to be related to CIA-mind control programs conducted in Maryland after World War II."
"All psychedelics are assigned designations that read something like: "twice the potency of mescaline" or "twice as long-lived as mescaline." This substance is the primary prototype against which other psychotropics are commonly measured. Early studies with the "psychomimetic amphetamines" had measurable psychological numbers attached to the substances that were labeled in "mescaline units."


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lashtal
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"Shiva" wrote:
AC strolled over to his chemist to arrange for a preparation of Anhalonium (or his words to that effect in his diaries).

And, as he wrote so delightfully in his diary on Sunday 7 March 1943:

I sit and smoke
Until I choke,
Take heroin
To breathe agin,
And then cocaine
To clear my brain.
To top with hashish
Much too rash is;
So let me clear
My mind with beer,
And call upon the lofties genii
With Anhalonium Lewinii!

Of course, Crowley also used Anhalonium Lewinii - or, rather, invited the audience to use it - during the Rites Of Eleusis. Ethel Archer, a close friend of AC who attended the Rites, wrote about its use in 'The Hieroglyph': “The odour of the stuff was certainly not inviting, it suggested bad apples and laudanum”

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ignant666
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I'd like to chime into this thread with a general comment: although our initial exchanges in these forums (discussing the "boy in the box" case some years back in the thread that saw him enter these forums AFAIK) verged on the contentious, I have come to appreciate Shiva as among the wisest of contributors who regularly posts here & I'd like to personally thank you/him (depending whether you, the reader, are Shiva or not) for having become a regular participant.
His contributions to this thread, have, I think, been particularly of value. I say this both as a person who has earned his living doing science with illegal drug users for a number of years, and as a person who has for rather longer pursued similar spiritual avenues.
A propos of Crowley & mescaline/anhalonium, I recall somewhere reading of him spending a bit of time in Detroit consulting with Parke-Davis on some peyote extracts? Can anyone remind me of where I might have read this?


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lashtal
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"ignant666" wrote:
I have come to appreciate Shiva as among the wisest of contributors who regularly posts here

For what it's worth: I'd tend to agree.

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 Anonymous
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"lashtal" wrote:
"zardoz" wrote:
It is fortunate that he did because he turned others, like Aldous Huxley, on to them.

I thought that story was apocryphal, first mentioned in a story in Rapid Eye magazine?

Admittedly, the evidence, to my knowledge, is circumstantial. It's noted in his diary that he spent at least one night in Huxley's company, in Berlin, sometime in the 1920's, I believe. Crowley was an enthusiast of using chemicals for transcendence, Huxley became an enthusiast. They would have had to have talked about something.

FWIW, Jerry Cornelius accepts the story, he knows much more about Crowley's life than I do. Yes, you are right, the story is apocryphal, but imo, probable. Crowley may not have been the first one to introduce Huxley to the idea but it's likely they discussed the subject. That may have influenced Huxley to make his experiments.


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 Anonymous
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"Shiva" wrote:
Aleister Crowley had access to mescaline. The brief description of the contents of the book, The Cactus, includes: " ... compiled from the actual records of some hundreds of experiments ..."

There is no indication whether it was Crowley, or several other people, who conducted these hundreds of experiments, but it is probable that he was at least the "subject" for a good portion of them (if not all of them), for we can read somewhere that AC strolled over to his chemist to arrange for a preparation of Anhalonium (or his words to that effect in his diaries).

I am curious as to what the most up-to-date info regarding this book and its fate might be from the Lashtal.com bibliographers? I don't believe that it is even listed anymore in the blue brick editions of Magick. A great loss, imo.

"Liber CMXXXIV.
The Cactus."
An elaborate study of the psychological effects produced by
"Anhalonium Lewinii" (Mescal Buttons), compiled from the
actual records of some hundreds of experiments.
Unpublished.


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Anonymous
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Aeternitas,
What i meant was that psychedelics produce higher spiritual potentials in the sense that they may aid one to such potentials, more so than perhaps alcohol.
Nor was i talking at all about "materialistic hipsters".
I don't see how one's level of initiation or maturity comes into it. What if the psychedelic experience WAS to initiate you or make one more mature just through the experience itself?
Looking at the graph that Shiva posted, psychedelics are at the top of the scale which made me think that they should perhaps sit higher up on the tree and not at Hod. I didn't imply at all that Hod was a lesser Holy or Spiritual place.


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